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Everything is prog?

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Topic: Everything is prog?
Posted By: Lord_Adon
Subject: Everything is prog?
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 17:15
Seriously now, the word 'progressive' is supposed to mean progressive.
I don't know how you guys feel, but after a while, those elements that might have made some bands progressive for their time now are recycled by bands as if it gives them some novelty that doesn't exist. What do you call this music? It's always called 'prog' but it is not really progressive if you get what I mean.

For example, Dream Theater sparked a whole bunch of imitation bands that wanted nothing but to sound exactly like them, it seems... and I would be rude to name-drop.
Can that really count as progressive music?

I find that if the term 'progressive' is wearing me out, I like to go to avant-garde music sub genres, maybe bands that consider themselves both avant-garde and progressive, or experimental. Otherwise, you end up with a bunch of power metal bands that really want to be Symphony X, or Dream Theater, but lack what makes those bands exciting.





Replies:
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 17:39
The terms "prog rock" and "prog metal" literally have no connection whatsoever to rock and metal that is actually progressive, but a bunch of dinosaurs would get mad if we stopped calling them that.

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http://www.last.fm/user/TullDerGraff" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 18:26
You are such a broken record Colin. Why don't you try and come up with a comment that is progressive and original rather that spouting the same old bullsh*t in every post. Maybe you should start your own prog website. It should be pretty damn easy to maintain given that you would only have to include 4 or 5 bands and you can remove them after you have overlistened to them and no longer consider them progressive anymore.

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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 18:32
I'm sorry, but this looks like yet another "what is 'prog' " thread. Let's see if the folks here are cool with that.

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 19:11
*sigh*
 
There is Progressive as a noun, which is the name of something and as a general rule the first letter is often capitalised to emphasis that it is the name of something specific rather than the name of something generic (such as cat for example as opposed to Tiddles the cat) - as with all names it is perfectly acceptible to shorten that as a diminutive, hence we get Prog, which is still a noun and is still the name of the same something.
 
And there is progressive as an adjective, this is a 'describing word' that we put with a noun to describe, modify  or other substantive by limiting, qualifying, or specifying characteristics of the noun, as a general rule unless it is used at the start of a sentence (which would be difficult to do in correct grammar) the first letter of the adjective progressive should never be capitalised. Also, progressive as an adjective should not be shortened at all (ever) as it is the -ive suffix that denotes that it is the adjective form of progress, remove the -ive ending and the word looses its descriptive meaning completely.
 
Therefore when you describe a tune as being very Prog, you are saying that it belongs in the genre of music known by the noun Prog or Progressive - you are not saying that it is a piece of music that has progressed.
 
Therefore it is grammatically correct, for example, to describe an artist as a progressive Progressive Rock artist since we are using both the adjective form and the noun form of the word.
 
Therefore it is musicologically correct for a band or artist to belong in a genre of music known as Progressive as a name (as in Progressive Rock, or Progressive Metal) without their music being described as being progressive as an adjective.
 
Armed with this basic knowledge of the usage of Progressive as a noun and progressive as an adjective any further discussion on this subject is rendered pointless as any point, comment or opinion can be systematically categorised as using the word progressive either as a noun or an adjective.
 


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 19:14
Originally posted by rushfan4

You are such a broken record Colin. Why don't you try and come up with a comment that is progressive and original rather that spouting the same old bullsh*t in every post. Maybe you should start your own prog website. It should be pretty damn easy to maintain given that you would only have to include 4 or 5 bands and you can remove them after you have overlistened to them and no longer consider them progressive anymore.


Sure, feel free to search through my posts and see what miniscule percentage of them actually has anything to do with your perception of me.  Or, keep spouting the same complaints at anybody with broader perspectives than you.

Besides, Dean just basically made the exact same (correct) assertion that I did and I don't see you lambasting him


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http://www.last.fm/user/TullDerGraff" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 19:17
Now, now, let's be gentle-manly about it.

[With Kelso's voice] Girl fight! Let's get it on!
... Or maybe you should kiss and make up. ... Let's get it on!

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 20:10
I think we should all pay close attention to Dean's post and leave it at that. The word 'progressive' has been debated to death and it seems as if 9/10 of all posts on the subject have paid little to no attention to how this site defines the word.

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 20:23
What a fascinating discussion.  I don't think I've ever seen this topic broached here before.  Sleepy

Move along.  Nothing to see here.  Wink


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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 20:26
^ Nothing to see here but you ... dying inside. (... At least that's what the first emoticon suggests.)

Tongue


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 20:52
Originally posted by Progosopher

I think we should all pay close attention to Dean's post and leave it at that. The word 'progressive' has been debated to death and it seems as if 9/10 of all posts on the subject have paid little to no attention to how this site defines the word.
I could only presume that there are some people out there who want to hear the opinion of individual users, not what's written on that one page of the site ... but usually opinion is a dust-in-the-wind kind of information. Wink

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 21:07
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

^ Nothing to see here but you ... dying inside. (... At least that's what the first emoticon suggests.)

Tongue


Confused  No wait.  Don't tell me.  This emoticon suggests that my lips have been horribly disfigured in a bizarre gardening accident right?  Wink


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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 21:59
Yes.

Everything is prog.

Absolutely every musical thing in existence is prog.




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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 22:49
Originally posted by The Doctor

  Wink


something in your eye?


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http://www.last.fm/user/TullDerGraff" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 22:53
^ Well, yeah, he is hitting on you.

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: May 01 2013 at 23:54
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq



Originally posted by Progosopher

I think we should all pay close attention to Dean's post and leave it at that. The word 'progressive' has been debated to death and it seems as if 9/10 of all posts on the subject have paid little to no attention to how this site defines the word.
I could only presume that there are some people out there who want to hear the opinion of individual users, not what's written on that one page of the site ... but usually opinion is a dust-in-the-wind kind of information.Wink

The issue is, as I see it, that people are asking a question that is already answered. I think that if people actually read what is on that one page they would not feel the need to bring this topic up so often; and when they do bring it up, we can all have a common foundation for the discussion instead of just expressing opinions and disagreeing about them. This site does not have the only definition of the word 'progressive,' but it does have the one that defines how the word is used here. We don't have to reinvent the wheel every other month.

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Lord_Adon
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 01:25
Well I am new to the forum, and was not aware that people bring this up. Was just looking for some thread points LOL


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 02:35
Originally posted by Progosopher

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq



Originally posted by Progosopher

I think we should all pay close attention to Dean's post and leave it at that. The word 'progressive' has been debated to death and it seems as if 9/10 of all posts on the subject have paid little to no attention to how this site defines the word.
I could only presume that there are some people out there who want to hear the opinion of individual users, not what's written on that one page of the site ... but usually opinion is a dust-in-the-wind kind of information.Wink

The issue is, as I see it, that people are asking a question that is already answered. I think that if people actually read what is on that one page they would not feel the need to bring this topic up so often; and when they do bring it up, we can all have a common foundation for the discussion instead of just expressing opinions and disagreeing about them. This site does not have the only definition of the word 'progressive,' but it does have the one that defines how the word is used here. We don't have to reinvent the wheel every other month.
The way you put it - that's a very good point.

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 03:09
Originally posted by Dean

*sigh*
 
There is Progressive as a noun, which is the name of something and as a general rule the first letter is often capitalised to emphasis that it is the name of something specific rather than the name of something generic (such as cat for example as opposed to Tiddles the cat) - as with all names it is perfectly acceptible to shorten that as a diminutive, hence we get Prog, which is still a noun and is still the name of the same something.
 
And there is progressive as an adjective, this is a 'describing word' that we put with a noun to describe, modify  or other substantive by limiting, qualifying, or specifying characteristics of the noun, as a general rule unless it is used at the start of a sentence (which would be difficult to do in correct grammar) the first letter of the adjective progressive should never be capitalised. Also, progressive as an adjective should not be shortened at all (ever) as it is the -ive suffix that denotes that it is the adjective form of progress, remove the -ive ending and the word looses its descriptive meaning completely.
 
Therefore when you describe a tune as being very Prog, you are saying that it belongs in the genre of music known by the noun Prog or Progressive - you are not saying that it is a piece of music that has progressed.
 
Therefore it is grammatically correct, for example, to describe an artist as a progressive Progressive Rock artist since we are using both the adjective form and the noun form of the word.
 
Therefore it is musicologically correct for a band or artist to belong in a genre of music known as Progressive as a name (as in Progressive Rock, or Progressive Metal) without their music being described as being progressive as an adjective.
 
Armed with this basic knowledge of the usage of Progressive as a noun and progressive as an adjective any further discussion on this subject is rendered pointless as any point, comment or opinion can be systematically categorised as using the word progressive either as a noun or an adjective.
 

I propose to make this the top sticky post and name it "Please read before posting anything about Prog vs progressive"


Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 03:42
Progressive music actually does have something to do with actual innovation. Fusing rock with the broader composition of classical represents the farthest that rock can be taken, and the greatest amount of possibilities/variations in the style. It's easier to be original playing prog than any other popular music style (to me this is the most intuitively obvious thing in the world, but some have a hard time with it).


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"It's music, and I like it" - Miles Davis on Sketches of Spain


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 03:56
Originally posted by King Crimson776

Progressive music actually does have something to do with actual innovation.

  Agreed; and as long as what is not progressive is still clear and relevant - folk, pop, rock 'n roll, jazz, etc. - that which is progressive still has purpose.

 
It's easier to be original playing prog than any other popular music style (to me this is the most intuitively obvious thing in the world, but some have a hard time with it).

   Though true, I think part of the challenge in doing non-progressive music is not having the avenues and liberties that are available to the progressive approach --  it's the very restrictions that give certain composing styles a direction and discipline.   In that way, prog may actually be easier than distilling an idea or feeling into its purest and most direct form.


Posted By: zeqexes
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 04:20
Originally posted by King Crimson776

Progressive music actually does have something to do with actual innovation. Fusing rock with the broader composition of classical represents the farthest that rock can be taken, and the greatest amount of possibilities/variations in the style. It's easier to be original playing prog than any other popular music style (to me this is the most intuitively obvious thing in the world, but some have a hard time with it).

While Progressive music of course does have a lot to do with progression and innovation, I don't think that the actual piece of music has to progress or be innovative to be Prog, because then there's the argument of where you draw the line on what's innovation and what's not.


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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 04:20
Christian Vander did the most intelligent thing by inventing a new word to define his music. Why don't we do the same? Instead of "progressive" let's call it "Maendisila". (I have composed this work taking the first half from the Swahili and the second half from the Malesian words for progressive. Wink 

A word without a meaning can be the solution.


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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 04:27
Progress does not mean innovation. It simply means moving forward. The two are not synonymous or mutually inclusive.

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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 04:30
Originally posted by octopus-4

Christian Vander did the most intelligent thing by inventing a new word to define his music. Why don't we do the same? Instead of "progressive" let's call it "Maendisila". (I have composed this work taking the first half from the Swahili and the second half from the Malesian words for progressive. Wink 

A word without a meaning can be the solution.
Then there would be arguments about whether band A was neo-Maendisila or crossover-Maendisila.

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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 05:34
Originally posted by Lord_Adon

Well I am new to the forum, and was not aware that people bring this up. Was just looking for some thread points LOL


Welcome

Just be aware that everything you'll ever want to discuss, has been discussed before ad nauseum on these forums, so please just start 'fun' threads and 'What is your favourite pie' polls, and you'll get on with everyone just fine..



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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 06:32
Originally posted by Blacksword

Originally posted by Lord_Adon

Well I am new to the forum, and was not aware that people bring this up. Was just looking for some thread points LOL


Welcome

Just be aware that everything you'll ever want to discuss, has been discussed before ad nauseum on these forums, so please just start 'fun' threads and 'What is your favourite pie' polls, and you'll get on with everyone just fine..

LOL
I must start a pie thread.


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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 06:55
Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by octopus-4

Christian Vander did the most intelligent thing by inventing a new word to define his music. Why don't we do the same? Instead of "progressive" let's call it "Maendisila". (I have composed this work taking the first half from the Swahili and the second half from the Malesian words for progressive.Wink

A word without a meaning can be the solution.


Then there would be arguments about whether band A was neo-Maendisila or crossover-Maendisila.

We're neither, we're Indo-Raga-Maendisila (on ice)

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rotten hound of the burnie crew


Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 07:13
LOL
I must start a pie thread.
[/QUOTE]

Great, now I'm hungry . . .


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Welcome to the middle of the film.


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 07:27
The answer is simple :
"The Creative is tamed by Kn, Keeping Still.  This produces great power, a
situation in contrast to that of the ninth hexagram, Hsiao Ch'u, THE
TAMING POWER OF THE SMALL, in which the Creative is tamed by the
Gentle alone. There one weak line must tame five strong lines, but here four
strong lines are restrained by two weak lines; in addition to a minister, there
is a prince, and the restraining power therefore is afar stronger."



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My Music: www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com
My blog: www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com


Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 07:54
Originally posted by King Crimson776

Progressive music actually does have something to do with actual innovation. Fusing rock with the broader composition of classical represents the farthest that rock can be taken, and the greatest amount of possibilities/variations in the style. It's easier to be original playing prog than any other popular music style (to me this is the most intuitively obvious thing in the world, but some have a hard time with it).


Sure - in 1969


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http://www.last.fm/user/TullDerGraff" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 07:59
Originally posted by Stool Man

Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by octopus-4

Christian Vander did the most intelligent thing by inventing a new word to define his music. Why don't we do the same? Instead of "progressive" let's call it "Maendisila". (I have composed this work taking the first half from the Swahili and the second half from the Malesian words for progressive. Wink 

A word without a meaning can be the solution.


Then there would be arguments about whether band A was neo-Maendisila or crossover-Maendisila.

We're neither, we're Indo-Raga-Maendisila (on ice)

I don't think that theremins fit into the Indo-Raga-Maendisila subgenre. Geek


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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 08:27
I think the OP confuses "exciting" as an adjective with "Progressive" as a genre/movement

...or what Dean explained already Wink


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"Prog Heavy Petting" show - every Monday 7-9pm UK time on http://www.justincaseradio.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.justincaseradio.com , the first progressive radio in Greece


Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 08:45
I'm reading a bit in a book by one of the folks who think they know a bit more than the ordinary about prog rock these days, and a band mentioned as having a part in the development of the genre is Rolling Stones. Without ever described as progressive per se I'll hastily add.

I think it would be helpful in debates such as this to compare progressive with mainstream rather than comparing progressive with progressive. If you want to look at the difference between apples and pears, actually looking at apples and pears is so much better than than looking at apples trying to see if some of them look more like pears.


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The Progressive Rock record labels project: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85100


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 09:03
Originally posted by Windhawk

I'm reading a bit in a book by one of the folks who think they know a bit more than the ordinary about prog rock these days, and a band mentioned as having a part in the development of the genre is Rolling Stones. Without ever described as progressive per se I'll hastily add.

I think it would be helpful in debates such as this to compare progressive with mainstream rather than comparing progressive with progressive. If you want to look at the difference between apples and pears, actually looking at apples and pears is so much better than than looking at apples trying to see if some of them look more like pears.
On"Pigs Might Fly" which is about the Pink Floyd's history Rolling Stones are barely mentioned and never as influencers, neither for the psych-blues of the Floyd's very beginnings. In terms of psychedelia the Beatles have been more important as influencers than the Stones. I don't see any relationship between Strones and prog. The closest thing they have done is I think 20000 Light Year From Home, really too few 


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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 09:45
Originally posted by octopus-4

Originally posted by Windhawk

I'm reading a bit in a book by one of the folks who think they know a bit more than the ordinary about prog rock these days, and a band mentioned as having a part in the development of the genre is Rolling Stones. Without ever described as progressive per se I'll hastily add.

I think it would be helpful in debates such as this to compare progressive with mainstream rather than comparing progressive with progressive. If you want to look at the difference between apples and pears, actually looking at apples and pears is so much better than than looking at apples trying to see if some of them look more like pears.
On"Pigs Might Fly" which is about the Pink Floyd's history Rolling Stones are barely mentioned and never as influencers, neither for the psych-blues of the Floyd's very beginnings. In terms of psychedelia the Beatles have been more important as influencers than the Stones. I don't see any relationship between Strones and prog. The closest thing they have done is I think 20000 Light Year From Home, really too few 

Quoted from somewhere else. Without implying that this an opinion I share, but a factoid I've come across in other places as well.

"Even established bands of the time began to experiment with the rock sound, such as the Moody Blues, who recorded their  http://allmusic.com/cg/x.dll" rel="nofollow - Days of Futures Past  album with conductor Peter Knight and the London Symphony Orchestra. Even the Rolling Stones also got into the act (and divided their fan and critical base in the process) with the psychedelic  http://allmusic.com/cg/x.dll?p=amg&sql=A16807" rel="nofollow - Their Satanic Majesties Request. "


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The Progressive Rock record labels project: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85100


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 09:57
Ermm At this juncture someone usualy enters the room carrying a dog-eard copy of Pet Sounds under their arm...

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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 10:25
Like Mademoiselle Nobs you mean ? Big smile




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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 10:27
Originally posted by Blacksword

Originally posted by Lord_Adon

Well I am new to the forum, and was not aware that people bring this up. Was just looking for some thread points LOL


Welcome

Just be aware that everything you'll ever want to discuss, has been discussed before ad nauseum on these forums, so please just start 'fun' threads and 'What is your favourite pie' polls, and you'll get on with everyone just fine..



Well that's no fun. How in the world do we pick the brains of the dinosaurs and the experts here without creating controversial threads topics?

But I do love pie! Thumbs Up


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 11:52
Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Blacksword

Originally posted by Lord_Adon

Well I am new to the forum, and was not aware that people bring this up. Was just looking for some thread points LOL
Welcome Just be aware that everything you'll ever want to discuss, has been discussed before ad nauseum on these forums, so please just start 'fun' threads and 'What is your favourite pie' polls, and you'll get on with everyone just fine..

LOL

I must start a pie thread.


I'm in for that idea. I'm an idiot by trade. I can contribute.

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 17:43
Originally posted by Gerinski


I propose to make this the top sticky post and name it "Please read before posting anything about Prog vs progressive"


I was thinking something similar, sort of like the Prog equivalent of saying "You must be this tall to go on this ride."

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 02 2013 at 19:16
If you get too hung up on the terminology then you really aren't appreciating the music for what it is.  So pat yourself on the back for being more clever than the rest of us...


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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 04 2013 at 13:50
Originally posted by Dean

*sigh*
...
   
Specially the nasty post above! I thought I was bad! But I think Trice is right ... however, the discussion is not worthy Trice ... ex ... go back 200 years and look at "romantic" ... same thing ... "passionate" would be more appropriate, even to an extreme.
 
All in all, the only bit that I would like to add, is that we have a tendency to think that it only happened during the beginning of time with Adam and Eve and thus, no one else can have that priviledge or ability! Sadly, even that book is a horrible translation and a lot of stuff that was taken almost verbatim of Hindu and Summerian mythologies!
 
We're not that far apart! Guess what? ... COPIES!
 
Just wearing different tshirts and pants!
  
Originally posted by Dean

...
Therefore it is grammatically correct, for example, to describe an artist as a progressive Progressive Rock artist since we are using both the adjective form and the noun form of the word.
 
Therefore it is musicologically correct for a band or artist to belong in a genre of music known as Progressive as a name (as in Progressive Rock, or Progressive Metal) without their music being described as being progressive as an adjective.
... 
 
The Professor has spoken!
 
Lock the thread before SD adds his agreement! Beer


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 04 2013 at 14:08
^Well obviously I agree,  I don't need to always say it.

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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: May 04 2013 at 14:28
www.maendisilaarchives.com Wink of course it's a broken link.
 


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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 20:56
Oh well, I consider Progressive rock as little more than just the name of the genre, and Prog rock as just the short name for Progressive. If we wanted to include only the bands that have progressed rock beyond what it was before they existed, there would be very few bands within the genre... and some of them wouldn't have the caracteristics we love so much about prog (I mean, at some point Punk and 80's synth pop would have been prog).

Oh yeah, and if the name of the genre actually had to define literally the bands, then I guess there just couldn't be any Heavy Metal... I mean, what would that be?


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 21:18
Originally posted by Dean

*sigh*
 
There is Progressive as a noun, which is the name of something and as a general rule the first letter is often capitalised to emphasis that it is the name of something specific rather than the name of something generic (such as cat for example as opposed to Tiddles the cat) - as with all names it is perfectly acceptible to shorten that as a diminutive, hence we get Prog, which is still a noun and is still the name of the same something.
 
And there is progressive as an adjective, this is a 'describing word' that we put with a noun to describe, modify  or other substantive by limiting, qualifying, or specifying characteristics of the noun, as a general rule unless it is used at the start of a sentence (which would be difficult to do in correct grammar) the first letter of the adjective progressive should never be capitalised. Also, progressive as an adjective should not be shortened at all (ever) as it is the -ive suffix that denotes that it is the adjective form of progress, remove the -ive ending and the word looses its descriptive meaning completely.
 
Therefore when you describe a tune as being very Prog, you are saying that it belongs in the genre of music known by the noun Prog or Progressive - you are not saying that it is a piece of music that has progressed.
 
Therefore it is grammatically correct, for example, to describe an artist as a progressive Progressive Rock artist since we are using both the adjective form and the noun form of the word.
 
Therefore it is musicologically correct for a band or artist to belong in a genre of music known as Progressive as a name (as in Progressive Rock, or Progressive Metal) without their music being described as being progressive as an adjective.
 
Armed with this basic knowledge of the usage of Progressive as a noun and progressive as an adjective any further discussion on this subject is rendered pointless as any point, comment or opinion can be systematically categorised as using the word progressive either as a noun or an adjective.
 

This Clap

Ivn


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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 23:30
Originally posted by Dean

*sigh*
 
There is Progressive as a noun, which is the name of something and as a general rule the first letter is often capitalised to emphasis that it is the name of something specific rather than the name of something generic (such as cat for example as opposed to Tiddles the cat) - as with all names it is perfectly acceptible to shorten that as a diminutive, hence we get Prog, which is still a noun and is still the name of the same something.
 
And there is progressive as an adjective, this is a 'describing word' that we put with a noun to describe, modify  or other substantive by limiting, qualifying, or specifying characteristics of the noun, as a general rule unless it is used at the start of a sentence (which would be difficult to do in correct grammar) the first letter of the adjective progressive should never be capitalised. Also, progressive as an adjective should not be shortened at all (ever) as it is the -ive suffix that denotes that it is the adjective form of progress, remove the -ive ending and the word looses its descriptive meaning completely.
 
Therefore when you describe a tune as being very Prog, you are saying that it belongs in the genre of music known by the noun Prog or Progressive - you are not saying that it is a piece of music that has progressed.
 
Therefore it is grammatically correct, for example, to describe an artist as a progressive Progressive Rock artist since we are using both the adjective form and the noun form of the word.
 
Therefore it is musicologically correct for a band or artist to belong in a genre of music known as Progressive as a name (as in Progressive Rock, or Progressive Metal) without their music being described as being progressive as an adjective.
 
Armed with this basic knowledge of the usage of Progressive as a noun and progressive as an adjective any further discussion on this subject is rendered pointless as any point, comment or opinion can be systematically categorised as using the word progressive either as a noun or an adjective.
 
 
LOL


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Et In Arcadia Ego


Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 10:29
Originally posted by Dellinger

Oh well, I consider Progressive rock as little more than just the name of the genre, and Prog rock as just the short name for Progressive. If we wanted to include only the bands that have progressed rock beyond what it was before they existed, there would be very few bands within the genre... and some of them wouldn't have the caracteristics we love so much about prog (I mean, at some point Punk and 80's synth pop would have been prog).

Oh yeah, and if the name of the genre actually had to define literally the bands, then I guess there just couldn't be any Heavy Metal... I mean, what would that be?


I think you'd qualify with that helmet you're wearing in your avatar.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 10:42
Originally posted by Dellinger



Oh yeah, and if the name of the genre actually had to define literally the bands, then I guess there just couldn't be any Heavy Metal... I mean, what would that be?


I think the name heavy metal does capture the boundaries of the genre reasonably well.   Heavy because it is pretty heavy (that is to say, loud and intense) and metal because the effect of distorted guitar riffs is a metallic sound.  You take metal music from any era from the 70s onwards and it does meet both these criteria.  Somebody who listens to extreme metal may not consider a Black Sabbath album heavy but that's a different story; vis a vis rock/blues, it is heavy. 


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 10:47
^ there are loads of possible reasons put forward for why metal is called metal, none of them are particularily convincing if you ask me. It's one of those things that "no one knows" and now we never will. The one Iike is that metal is simply harder and heavier than rock.

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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 11:28
Originally posted by Dean

^ there are loads of possible reasons put forward for why metal is called metal, none of them are particularily convincing if you ask me. It's one of those things that "no one knows" and now we never will. The one Iike is that metal is simply harder and heavier than rock.

And sometimes more shiny.Cool


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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 13:19
METALLICACA!!!

please note that this term is the intellectual property of 'DEAN.' lol

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 13:23
How can you tell if a peice of music has progressed.......from what point, or singularity are we postulating the origin from whence all music has progressed? and when is the turning point going to happen and the music starts to regress back towards the origin? Or is the progression simply another word for on-going time?
If you locked Steven Wilson in a (soundproof) box with a funnel web spider,  he is obviously neither dead nor alive and could well be preparing to finally create the symphonic progressive rock epic that is surely waiting to explode the myth that anything of such magnitude could be anything else but "Derivative".......

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 13:26
Originally posted by M27Barney

How can you tell if a peice of music has progressed.......from what point, or singularity are we postulating the origin from whence all music has progressed? and when is the turning point going to happen and the music starts to regress back towards the origin? Or is the progression simply another word for on-going time?
If you locked Steven Wilson in a (soundproof) box with a funnel web spider, he is obviously neither dead nor alive and could well be preparing to finally create the symphonic progressive rock epic that is surely waiting to explode the myth that anything of such magnitude could be anything else but "Derivative".......


Dude. Your over thinking it.

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 14:20
Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by M27Barney

How can you tell if a peice of music has progressed.......from what point, or singularity are we postulating the origin from whence all music has progressed? and when is the turning point going to happen and the music starts to regress back towards the origin? Or is the progression simply another word for on-going time?
If you locked Steven Wilson in a (soundproof) box with a funnel web spider,  he is obviously neither dead nor alive and could well be preparing to finally create the symphonic progressive rock epic that is surely waiting to explode the myth that anything of such magnitude could be anything else but "Derivative".......


Dude. Your over thinking it.

or maybe trying to debunk the whole idea of the thread ...although I must admit I've now forgotten what that wasLOL


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 14:30
Originally posted by richardh


Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by M27Barney

How can you tell if a peice of music has progressed.......from what point, or singularity are we postulating the origin from whence all music has progressed? and when is the turning point going to happen and the music starts to regress back towards the origin? Or is the progression simply another word for on-going time?
If you locked Steven Wilson in a (soundproof) box with a funnel web spider, he is obviously neither dead nor alive and could well be preparing to finally create the symphonic progressive rock epic that is surely waiting to explode the myth that anything of such magnitude could be anything else but "Derivative".......


Dude. Your over thinking it.

or maybe trying to debunk the whole idea of the thread ...although I must admit I've now forgotten what that wasLOL


Yeah exactly. I think we ALL are guilty getting into long-winded discussions about the orgins and use of certain terms that may or may not have a universal relevance to describe something, in this case 'prog' or 'progressive.' personally I feel it may lead to nowhere, but DEAN clarified quite well. Anywaymy dear Richard, I plan not add to the madness. :)

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 16:59
Originally posted by M27Barney

How can you tell if a peice of music has progressed.......from what point, or singularity are we postulating the origin from whence all music has progressed? and when is the turning point going to happen and the music starts to regress back towards the origin? ..


Hm, not trying to be snotty, but wasn't Punk rather regressive? To these ears the Punk bands played and sang just as bad and out of tune as the early Stones. Only faster. LOL



Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 17:28
Originally posted by moshkito


 
Just wearing different tshirts and pants!
  


Joke's on you, I'm not wearing pants


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http://www.last.fm/user/TullDerGraff" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 20:05
Originally posted by silverpot

Originally posted by M27Barney

How can you tell if a peice of music has progressed.......from what point, or singularity are we postulating the origin from whence all music has progressed? and when is the turning point going to happen and the music starts to regress back towards the origin? ..


Hm, not trying to be snotty, but wasn't Punk rather regressive? To these ears the Punk bands played and sang just as bad and out of tune as the early Stones. Only faster. LOL



That would also assume that you've got some amazingly gifted ears that can listen to, absorb, and correctly delegate ratings to music. I'm not a punk fan at all, but it does bother me when people take whole genres and dub them "regressive" because it doesn't suit their taste. I can understand 'prog' fans not liking punk (and many other genres), but to toss it aside and call it garbage is VERY elitist and ignorant in my opinion.

"Prog rock" is a name. It's a word we use to categorize the music we all enjoy and love, but it's not an accurate description, as Dean also pointed out with heavy metal. It's just a name. Just like Greenland. It's a name, but not at all descriptive of what it titles.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 21:31
Originally posted by Metalmarsh89


Originally posted by Dellinger

Oh well, I consider Progressive rock as little more than just the name of the genre, and Prog rock as just the short name for Progressive. If we wanted to include only the bands that have progressed rock beyond what it was before they existed, there would be very few bands within the genre... and some of them wouldn't have the caracteristics we love so much about prog (I mean, at some point Punk and 80's synth pop would have been prog).

Oh yeah, and if the name of the genre actually had to define literally the bands, then I guess there just couldn't be any Heavy Metal... I mean, what would that be?
I think you'd qualify with that helmet you're wearing in your avatar.


Cool!!! So if I put on my costume I can go and play whatever I want and it will be Metal!!!
Regardless the fact that I have absolutley no idea how to play any instrument
But what if I want to play Prog Metal? What modification would I need to do to my costume?


Posted By: ProgressiveMike
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 23:24
I would like to take this time to mention that even though I love Rush, I don't like metal, of any kind, progressive or otherwise, recorded anytime after the 70s. And Anathema f**king sucks.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 00:31
how very progressive of you.  Clown

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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: ProgressiveMike
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 00:37
Sorry, that was really mean. And quite irrelevant. But I'm not going to delete it. I'm just a little touchy on the whole "prog-metal" thing. I honestly can't seem to find any contemporary metal that I enjoy, and if I do I find some justification to classify it otherwise    The Mars Volta for instance. Wonderful group. Heavy? Quite heavy at times. Metal? Get the hell out of my apartment.


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 02:14
I think the relationship between hell and metal is the same as between hell and horror movies. If you watch a Romero movie you are not praising Satan as well as you don't by listening to Arcturus. 

I don't see any hell in The Human Equation, just to say one album that I think is 100% prog-metal, even if it has folk and symphonic contaminations.




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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: axeman
Date Posted: May 14 2013 at 20:14
Originally posted by chopper

I must start a pie thread.
I think that pondering "Everything is Pie" just might get me too hungry. 


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-John


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 01:48
If I like it is, otherwise, no. LOL

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