When did Prog first "Jump the Shark"?
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Topic: When did Prog first "Jump the Shark"?
Posted By: JD
Subject: When did Prog first "Jump the Shark"?
Date Posted: May 03 2013 at 18:08
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To begin with for those aren't familiar with the phrase; From Wikipedia Jumping the shark is an idiom used to describe the moment in the evolution of a television show when it begins a decline in quality that is beyond recovery. The usage of "jump the shark" has subsequently broadened beyond television, indicating the moment when a brand, design, or creative effort's evolution loses the essential qualities that initially defined its success and declines, ultimately, into irrelevance. The motivator for me asking is that last weekend I was digging through some old VHS tapes and found my copy of Lisztomania. I hadn't watched it since probably 1985 and had completely forgotten just about everything about it. Well towards the end when Rick Wakeman makes his appearance it became painfully apparent that this was probably the moment. Three full years before the dreaded Love Beach album which, had it not been for Rick's (performance?) involvement in Lisztomania, would have been my first choice. So what do you think. What's your choice for Prog's Jumping the Shark moment? ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Replies:
Posted By: javier0889
Date Posted: May 03 2013 at 18:26
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When hairy chests and sunny beaches became the motifs of prog musicians. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/javier0889 |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: May 03 2013 at 18:26
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Prog hasn't jumped the shark at all - not even close. Still MID-FLIGHT, baby, and there it's going to stay forever! 
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Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: May 03 2013 at 18:28
Yep, well said! There are some prog bands over the time that might have jumped the shark, but not the genre as a whole really.
------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: May 03 2013 at 18:33
And right back at you, good Sir!  I should have also said it was at it's highest altitude too! 
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: May 03 2013 at 19:15
Well said,both of you. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: The Mystical
Date Posted: May 03 2013 at 20:27
Well said all of you. ------------- I am currently digging: Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz! Please drop me a message with album suggestions. |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: May 03 2013 at 20:30
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Fair enough. I''d absolutely agree that as a whole the genre has not. I will always agree that Love beach, both the cover and the whole of side one (sans Canario) is most definitely ELP's Jumping the shark, but surely there has to be other examples. Enlighten me. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: zeqexes
Date Posted: May 04 2013 at 02:17
Everything here is well said. ------------- 
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 04 2013 at 02:41
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Well at least the thread taught me a new expression, I had never heard about jumping sharks except in National Geographic documentaries. The genre in general was forced to jump the shark by its musical, cultural and economical environment in the late 70's, but those musicians who had the talent or courage kept making interesting music all along, and when the environment became more hospitable many of them have come back strong. But some of them did indeed, Genesis jumped the shark clearly in Abacab but with Invisible Touch it was more like an aquarium show dolphin jump
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Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: May 04 2013 at 03:15
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Never truly, but of course I'm biased (as are most here, naturally). In the 80's, avant-prog destroys the dull, plodding, dreary post-punk that was around. Quality over quantity. The 80's neo bands are certainly the best from their style too. The 80's sucked for everything, so prog only declined inasmuch as music in general did. I just defended 80's prog. That already gives me a passing grade in debate class. I don't even need to mention the 90's and on.
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: May 04 2013 at 04:06
There are a few old threads about specific bands Jumping the shark.
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Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: May 04 2013 at 07:37
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Whoever first released an album with incredibly good sleeve artwork, triple-gatefold diecut sleeve etc etc - but only on CD, not on vinyl. That would be jumping the shark, methinks. ------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 04 2013 at 07:43
Yeah, the packaging is sooo much more important than the music.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: May 04 2013 at 08:08
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Yessongs ------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: May 04 2013 at 12:15
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As others have said, as a genre it never did, whilst ELP were busy with Love Beach, Bubu were putting out Anabelas, Locanda Della Fate had Forsa Le Luciola Non si Amano Piu (sp?), Art Zoyd were going strong, Universe Zero were just getting started, heck the entire Avant/RIO movement was really getting into it's swing at the time, even Canterbury acts like National Health were putting out good albums. Sadly there were more than a few bands that dropped into mediocrity. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005  |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 04 2013 at 12:59
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Symphonic-style prog "jumped the shark" around about 1976, and vanilla prog metal somewhere in the mid-90s, but most other styles/subgenres are still going as strong as ever. |
Posted By: JesusisLord
Date Posted: May 05 2013 at 23:57
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Rightly Said !! Prog has not " Jumped" !!! Been hearing Prog since I first spun Nursery Cryme back in 73' and i am just as excited about what is going on in the Prog world today, As I was back then.... Specifics can be cited however...YES officially "Jumped The Shark" when they threw out the great Jon Anderson. Magnification was a real good album, but now....Yes is dead... ------------- And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:11 |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 09:02
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For those that don't know, the term "Jump the Shark" was actually derived from a "dramatic" 2-part episode of Happy Days which featured Fonzie "jumping a shark" on his motorcycle. ------------- 
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 09:09
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I would say there were some prog bands who definitely jumped the shark, but I don't think prog as a whole ever has. It got beat down for awhile by punk and new wave, but has come back as strong as ever. Actually, even some bands who at one time could have been accused of jumping the shark (Wakeman's King Arthur on Ice, the cover of Love Beach, Yes' Tales from Topographic Oceans, etc.) made comebacks or did relevant work after that. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:04
------------- What? |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:07
-------------
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:26
On his motorcycle on waterskis! Wow! impressive Heeey! ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:29
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-------------
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:31
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Hey, that's Laurette Spang next to Ralph. I had a torrid love affair with her when I was 9 years old. Of course, she knew nothing about said love affair.
------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 11:01
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That's why it was so torrid.
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 11:04
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When did you dump her for somebody else? ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 11:05
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when they ended the original battlestar galactica, I guess we just kind of grew apart. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 11:44
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I agree that prog never "jumped the shark" when it came to the quality of work produced at least on the basis that there was always someone producing good material. On the other hand, this is true of any musical genre which has any appreciable amount of activity whatsoever. Perhaps a more interesting question is when mainstream commercial prog jumped the shark - by which I mean that part of the genre which enjoyed mainstream commercial success. I 100% agree that Locanda delle Fate's debut album was an amazing release and really kept the prog flame burning, but I think we also have to consider that it just didn't impact the mainstream consciousness to the extent that the likes of Yes did. Personally, I'd go with the conventional wisdom and say that 1975-1976 would be the time when prog lost its grip on being a mainstream commercial force. Some individual bands were able to stay strong after that, but many of them sooner or later shifted to a deliberately less proggy sound in order to do so, and the market became decidedly more difficult for new bands from that point onwards. Part of this comes down to the simple fact that fashions change, but I also think it comes down to many of the "big six" prog bands - the ones with the greatest commercial visibility who were essentially the "ambassadors" of prog to the mainstream during the era - dropping the ball to a greater or lesser extent during that time period. Let's consider: - ELP went on hiatus in 1974. This made it all too easy for the public's attention to drift, and Works, love it or hate it, wasn't exactly the album to win back the general public. - Yes likewise were on hiatus, and whilst their comeback album (Going For the One) was somewhat more widely embraced than Works the hiatus itself still left a gap in which people's attentions could wander. - King Crimson were gone, Fripp declaring the era of the dinosaur bands over and specifically urging people to small, independent units for the future of music. - Jethro Tull were going through an awkward phase which would eventually come to an end with Songs From the Wood but for the time being was a bit hit-or-miss. Now, Pink Floyd brought out one of their best albums at this time and Genesis were able to keep going without Peter Gabriel's departure really slowing them down very much at all, so there was still interesting stuff going on in the prog field which would have been on the mainstream commercial radar. However, the fact was that half of the big six were on hiatus at the time (and one of those hiatuses looked for all the world like actual death) and another one was going through a rough patch. Now, as prog fans we know full well that this wasn't the whole story of what was going on at the time, but it's easy for us to forget that those bands had far more commercial and mainstream visibility than just about any other prog group you could name in the era - even Caravan, Camel, VdGG or Gentle Giant weren't on the same level. (The Moody Blues were close, but they were on hiatus too.) The fact is that if you were a music fan who wasn't very well connected to the prog scene and didn't know about all of the more esoteric releases coming out of the time, 1975-1976 would have looked like a period of sudden collapse for the genre, with major bands breaking up or going on hiatus at an alarming pace. You'd have probably been keeping up with Floyd or Genesis, but those two bands on their own couldn't keep up the momentum the Big Six had enjoyed when all six of them were firing on all cylinders. When you factor in the consideration that the internet didn't exist yet - so it was that much harder for, say, a prog fan in the UK to find out about Locanda delle Fate in the first place - and it becomes easy to see why many listeners would have started looking elsewhere at that point. So, I'd say prog "jumped the shark" - in the sense of "lost its grip on mainstream, commercial success" - when a high proportion of its main ambassadors to the mainstream left their posts. Prog wasn't pushed, it jumped.
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Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 14:43
| I just don't think people need concern themselves so much with the sales aspect. That will become less and less important, I guarantee you. The rock star thing is dead. This is a good thing. |
Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 19:57
| Oh, absolutely, and if the same thing happened today (half the front-rank prog bands split or go on hiatus) it wouldn't have nearly the same effect - new and up-and-coming bands would just slot right into the vacuum the old bands left behind. Thanks to the Internet era it's harder to make a fat stack of money out of progressive music but the actual prog scene is far more resilient. |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: May 06 2013 at 21:54
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Well speaking of hiatus. Scottish Neo Prog band PALLAS went on a 12 year hiatus and came back in 1999 with album BEAT THE DRUM, which I think it was well worth the wait and arguably their best work to date. :) Yeah....now that's jumping shark!! Lol ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: humor4u1959
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 01:24
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Prog "jumped the shark" by 1980, if not a bit sooner than that. It cracks me up when someone says that prog is going strong or is alive and kicking. No it's not! These folks are delusional. Sure, some bands are still flogging the proverbial dead horse, but it's not a popular style of music with the masses and never will be again. Yet, the old prog bands, as well as the newer ones, have a devout following. I won't debate that. But, you don't hear new prog on the radio now like you did in the 1970's. And, they don't play huge venues either. The exception to this would be Yes as in last summer's tour of open amphitheaters. Procol Harum opened for them. What a joke! Everyone said they were so much better than Yes, but even my faves, Procol Harum, have dropped to being an opening act. Many years ago, King Crimson and Yes opened for Procol on the same bill! It's sad. So, let's just be thankful that we'll always have the recorded material to enjoy. That's enough for me. |
Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 01:38
I asked elsewhere about million sellers, and was informed that Dream Theater have sold twelve million albums. Is that not good enough? I don't have figures for anyone else, but prog bands like Muse & Radiohead are mainstream bands (or did you not see Muse at The Olympics?) ------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 08:28
A few bands out there ... let's see ... ELP ... Amon Duul 2 Can Focus Black Sabbath Rolling Stones Michael Jackson King Crimson ... Just about all the bands really ... some folks might even say Pink Floyd, after Roger, though I disagree. The ones that sold a million, and then only 100k on their next album, were the first that not only junped the shark, they got eaten by that shark ... since the shark was the music company, or record company! The problem is that some of these bands were still selling, and the ability to close down shop is harder when you have a larger payroll of folks to handle ...
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 08:38
I'm not sure why you're equating "jumping the shark" with record sales and the size of venues played. That term has nothing to do with popularity and has to do with the quality of the work produced. Something "jumps the shark" when it begins to decline in quality, not in quantity sold. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 10:40
But they are not prog  . Haven't you heard, 'real' prog died in the 70s, Fripp killed it after Red album.  |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 11:00
The corpse was then fed to a shark, which Arthur Fonzarelli subsequently jumped on waterskis whilst riding a motorcycle, hence the OP's original question is answered... Huzzah - a PA thread about prog going downhill answered to an ample sufficiency within 2 pages; this is a record! Incidentally, it is a little known fact that the cover photo of ELP's Love Beach was taken as they were waiting for said shark (see above) to be BBQ'd, having died of boredom listening to an early Pallas demo -------------  Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 11:03
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 12:04
Anyway, we've another twelvty pages of post answer discussion and analysis to go yet. ------------- What? |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 12:07
First the rebuttal: Laurette Spang looks smokin in that bikini.  ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 12:16
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moreover, it's what the Palmer, Lake and Emerson were looking [at] when the photograph for the cover of Love Beach was taken. Hence the big sh*t-eating grins. ------------- What? |
Posted By: stegor
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 12:36
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I think Jumping the Shark suggests more than just a decline in quality, it's more of a sudden departure into the ridiculous. I think only a few Prog bands actually did that, most just gradually got boring. Jethro Tull jumped it with A. It was such a self conscious attempt to modernize. Ian and Martin looked ridiculous in those white jumpsuits. Were they trying to be DEVO? ELP - Love Beach of course. They were approaching the shark with Works I and II, building the intensity and suspense leading up to the actual jump. Genesis - They didn't really jump the shark, they just sort of paddled around it in a canoe for a while and then it tipped over. Same with Yes, I think. Big Generator was obviously the end of anything Progressive (for the time being), but it wasn't ridiculous or laughable. |
Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 12:57
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Ridiculous moments, eh? ....nope, can't think of a single ridiculous moment in the entire fifty years ------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 13:19
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I had no idea what jumping the shark meant before this thread, but seeing the video I can clearly see it, how much more ridiculous can you get? Honestly I did not even know that TV show, I may be a real ignorant. Prog was never that pathetic, even in its worst days.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 15:15
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ELP appearing on German TV for the track 'Tiger In A Spotlight' when they had a live tiger at the front of the stage (chained I might add). Some might go with Lake's Persian carpet but at least it had a function. Genesis/Peter Gabriel and the Slipperman costume Rick Wakeman - King Arthur On Ice Yes - Rick Wakeman and the curry episode |
Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 15:26
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King Arthur on ice had a practical basis, at least - the venue he wanted for the show had an ice-skating show on at the time, and Rick's gig came during a few days break in the show. Rather than change venue, Rick said "ok, we'll do it with the ice" ------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: May 07 2013 at 18:18
Yes, Yes, Yes ! You got it. This is exactly what I was thinking when I posted the question. Read my comment about Wakeman. Maybe not enough people have seen this movie or the scene I'm referencing. It IS ridiculous! As is the cover to the much discussed Love Beach and much of the music contained within it. I'll repeat an earlier comment I made, I don't believe, or ever intended to suggest, that Prog as a genre Jumped. I really was looking for other examples of those within the genre Jumping. But it's been a blast reading the posts. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 03:30
Keith Emerson's spinning piano |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 06:23
Nah, that was just funny. A simple case of a misheard instruction.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 14:25
a good example perfectly fitting the idea of 'ridiculous' as well as entirely pointless. Love Beach on the other hand was just a bit lame and just indicative of a band already on a sharp decline.
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Posted By: ProgressiveMike
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 00:17
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ProgressiveMike, here. Before I begin, this is easily the best thread we've had in a long time. Few things I'd like to address, however; FIRST AND FOREMOST: Arthur on ice is the greatest idea in the history of humanity. Ever. I can only pray that Mr. Wakeman puts it on tour again one day. MOSTLY: Prog was destroyed by Trevor Horn and Geoff Downes. May they both burn in hell for encouraging Yes and Asia to use my own heroes to break my heart. Sure, U.K. was sort of getting there. But what they were doing in the late 70's was edgy, became norm in the 80's. It's that 80's sound. That 80's production. That 80's desire to listen to Duran Duran. Terribly piece of music history, the 80's were. The only real exceptions I can think of is King Crimson's 80's revival and Marillion who have seemed to kidnap Peter Gabriel and force him to sing under an assumed name. I mean, even Anderson Brufford Wakeman and Howe, forgive me, sound so bad compared to their 70s work, or even their work with other groups and producers. The sound from the 80's is just absolute sh*t, unless you were a pop act. That's when prog faded into irrelevancy. And that's really the key in the question of jumping a shark. I think the Steven Wilson thing and Roine Stolte thing sort have helped prog out in the 90s, and of course the Mars Volta in the 00's, but it really is a questionable future for prog music, considering how many copies/digital downloads of Moves Like Jagger has probably sold and considering that EDM (by far my least favorite musical movement of all time) is flying off the shelves at alarming rates, I don't think we can count on the next generation to find any value whatsoever in complicated and subtle music. I think that's another reason why metal is such a big thing right now, is that no one cares about the content anymore. They use music to fill a sonic void and have no intention to actually listen to it. Metal, rap, EDM, 99% of pop, 99% of country. It's terrible, but it's what is making 99.99999% of the money at the label. It's likely a record label isn't going to sign a prog band ever, when there are plenty of these new-fangled "indie-folk" groups to squeeze money out of. It's happened before. The public says "Ok record company, we'll listen to what you say!" Then you get to hear Hanson every 3 hours for the next two years. Look at the trends though. Jet comes out with a "classic" sound , and the record companies try to push Wolfmother and the Darkness on us. Limp Bizkit is selling records (for some god awful reason) and the record companies say, "Hey! We can do that. Hand me that tape, because we're signing... Linkin Park." this copy and force-feed process is prevalent in all forms of popular media. Finally: I have rambled on for several hundred words that everyone will get bored reading. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 01:08
That's true Rick had signed a terrible contract with A&M, and to make it worst, he had a heart attack at the age of 24 or 25 that almost killed him. The doctors forbid him to play on stage anymore when all started, and he was afraid (luckily it wasn't so bad), so he wrote Myths & Legends at the hospital, because he was desperate for money.
The album was a success but A&M ate most the profits, so he had to live from his stage acts, he asked Wembley and they accepted but then then hired a skating show and programmed the same days, and the guys thought that the skate show was more profitable (Rick sold out the three dates). So they said or you do it on ice or you don't do it, he needed the money and recruited some skaters from the show If you need money for your family, you do anything. And honestly, wasn't that bad Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 01:09
I would ask why are you dragging UK into this? Their two albums are nearly perfect to my ears in every respect. IQ's 'The Wake' (1985) is one of the most 'edgy' prog albums out there. It was only when they got to Nomzamo that I agree with you about 80's production. Also no mention of Eloy who were peaking early eighties. I suspect though you are only focusing on symphonic prog which could be argued jumped the shark with the overblown Tales From Topographic Oceans. Never been keen on doubles. Too few good ideas stretched over to vast a canvas. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 02:07
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I also reject including UK in 'the decline of Prog', sure they sounded nothing like CTTE, Foxtrot or Tarkus but they made outstanding music, they found the way to inject a more modern sound while retaining the spirit of the best Prog. Regarding Tales From Topographic Oceans, I personally do not consider it as 'jumping the shark' but rather the opposite, the culmination of a quest towards the ultimate Prog trip, although I know that some people (especially the music critics) received it as jumping the shark. The 80's sound had indeed a major influence in the transformation of Prog and I also find it often too thin and plastic, but it's easy to criticise in retrospect. It was the emerging technology of the times, not the musicians fault, after years of messing with patch cables and knobs in the analog monster synths and tape recorders, here were the Fairlight, the Yamaha DX-7, buttons, sliders and LCD displays in the control panels, MIDI, drum machines and digital recording. The digital sounds themselves were in their infancy and consequently they were of limited quality and depth, but I guess that for musicians at the time there was little else to go. |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 02:17
Seeing as how two of those are Australian, sorry about that! Not my idea though!
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 02:55
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1969, but its back ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 07:12
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 07:14
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Jump the shark.... Gotta love that expression So it basically has nothing whatever to do with this?:  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ProgressiveMike
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 10:52
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Gerinski: you have a very good point. I do often fail to acknowledge the fact that the groups were using brand new technology, and what they were doing could be considered experimental. I suppose since the sounds they were using were commonplace in many pop acts I always feel like the technique is lacking, even though that may not be the case. Rush's 80's output for instance, not the worst thing in the world, definitely an acquired taste, but they seem to improve in the 90's when popular producers kind of aim away from the over blown over-processed music production of the 80's and seek a more minimalistic approach in the 90's. Concerning UK: I would like to state for the record that I love the group UK. Bill Brifford is my favorite drummer and the fact that he is working with John Wetton again can only produce amazing results. The reason I bring UK up is that, as far as I know, they were the first prog group to embrace the new technology that would ruin prog in the 80's. I can't say for sure how much it was the band experimenting and how much it was the production. Once again, amazing album. It's like the last gasp before death. Of course, Brufford came back with Discipline and there is no way I can suggest that the 80's style pioneering was more his fault that it was, say, Wetton's (who of course went on to play in Asia, whom which I have very mixed feelings about. I once put them on par with Mike + the Mechanics, but have since reconsidered.). Concerning Eloy and IQ: You're right, and I have forgotten that good prog existed in the dead-zone. Exceptions to everything is the first law of the universe. The second law being No Spill Blood, of course. Finally, concerning Tales From A Topographic Ocean:  !!!!!!!! I love Tales!
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 10:58
So was I the only one hoping that Fonzi's jump would fail and he would be eaten by the shark? That would have made for a great Happy Days episode.  ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: altaeria
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 10:59
Sure, it was a great idea... much like it was a great idea to have the Fonz wear a leather jacket while skiing and jumping over a shark.
'nuff said. |
Posted By: ProgressiveMike
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 11:00
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PS AMAZING DOUBLE ALBUMS YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO BEFORE YOU DIE (WARNING; LIST CONTAINS NON-PROG MUSIC!!): The White Album Physical Graffiti Goodbye Yellow Brick Road Sign O' The Times Grace For Drowning Stadium Arcadium The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway Live Albums Innumerable |
Posted By: ProgressiveMike
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 11:02
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[/QUOTE]it was a great idea to have the Fonz wear a leather jacket while skiing and jumping over a shark. [/QUOTE] I'm glad someone can appreciate true greatness I don't know how to use the quote mechanic |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 11:02
^ pointless list.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 12:24
Listless point? ------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 12:35
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 14:05
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It has to be said, with todays - fifty five zillion channels on the goggle-box, everything that is shown is just a re-make of some-such programme made two-three decades before so that generation X+1 thinks that they are watching something new...whilst generation X think - seen this zzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
I suppose this is the same with some of the young whipper-snappers today - they get the latest S. Wilson CD - and have no idea that it's essence was 1972-1975 Genesis.....Ho hum........... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 14:20
Aimed at me I guess. My personal favourites are Mike Oldfield - Incantations Aphrodites Child -666 The latter is annoyingly overlooked and was recorded a few years before it became the trendy thing to do epic (overblown) double albums. The former is just a perfect album but then Oldfield did slave over it for 9 months and wanted it to be the last word on his complex instrumental style. Chicago's first two albums were great double albums although not really 'prog' From your list the only one that I like that much is Grace For Drowning although I'm not that familar with most on the list apart from Lamb. Don't count live doubles as they are often just compilation albums in disguise |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: May 09 2013 at 22:11
Got room for one more Clappy guy? ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: ProgressiveMike
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 10:25
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M27barney I severely object to your post regarding Mr.Wilson. First, I submit that there are VERY few "whipper-snappers" listening to prog at all. Secondly I find your underhanded remarks specifying that ones age has in anyway to do with ones awareness of prog instrumentation and techniques to be ill-advised and incorrect. It only serves as a suggestion to your own age, which I dare not comment on. Thirdly, Steven Wilson is a fantastic artist and regarding him as "same old" is a discredit to your own character and a HUGE loss to your music library. Mr. Wilson has stated in at least one interview that his favorite albums were made in the 70s. The influence of the albums are obvious, and tastefully appreciated in his work. Just because I am a huge fan of the Prog Rock Caretaker and one of progs most successful perpetuators doesn't mean that I believe he is discovering brand new techniques or he is pioneering the use of certain instruments in the realm of rock and roll. Furthermore, I am acutely aware and appreciative of the work Genesis did in the 70s. Anyone who isn't is likely not a member of this website so your complaint is ineffective, except to serve to piss me off. If you need to disparage Steven Wilson, please choose an appropriate thread. |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 10:40
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Have to agree with you in Mr Wilson, ProgressiveMike. Steven Wilson's early Porcupine Tree albums, especially `Up The Downstair', `Staircase Infinities', the full `Voyage 34', `The Sky Moves Sideways' the `Moonloop' LP, `Signify' etc perfectly fused modern dance/ambient elements with classic progressive rock, and considering he's not far off thirty years in the prog field, he could not be more at the top of his game, putting out music that bridges the old with the new. If younger listeners get into his work, explore further and find out his influences, then this can only be a good thing, as they'll eventually be exposed to all those defining vintage prog bands and ensure they live on with the next generation. I also get the feeling Wilson will semi-retire and focus on producing before he ever gets anywhere near `jumping his shark'
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Posted By: Cornelius
Date Posted: May 11 2013 at 11:13
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For me. Was when Genesis and Yes turned to chart success.... Instead of Artistic Integrity we got ABACAB and Owner Of A Lonely Fart. Most big name Prog groups were doing it though around 80-81, To a degree... ------------- I Like To Drink Cough Medicine..! |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 12 2013 at 01:41
| I should point out that a lot of the Steven Wilson hate can be explained if you go to the Steven Wilson v Roine Stolt thread. M27 Barney is very much a Stolt fan and him and a number of Flower Kings fans had their feathers ruffled by comments made by Wilson on Stolt (albeit several years ago) |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: May 12 2013 at 02:25
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Indeed, this was years ago. Given the style of SW's latest album, I think it's pretty clear he has changed his views considerably over the last few years. His views are now closer to mine, I think. He sees that progressive rock in general, even with decreased "contemporary" influence, has much more freedom than any "modern" pop style. Whereas before, he would have claimed to value hip hop more than modern symphonic and the like. I think he has discreetly changed his views, and has stopped trying so hard to be hip. He also doesn't like metal anymore.
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 03:42
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Carl Palmer's 1973 rotating stainless steel drum kit was perceived by some as jumping the shark, I personally think it was cool as long as you were not a roadie Documentary bit Full Toccata solo |
Posted By: The Mystical
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 04:22
You said it. ------------- I am currently digging: Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz! Please drop me a message with album suggestions. |
Posted By: mageestout
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 08:07
GREG: "We can make love on love beach out of reach of the lion's claws tonight. KEITH: "F** off!" |
Posted By: mageestout
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 08:13
Yet YES came back to the fold a bit with some tunes on KEYS & MAGIFICATION and Genesis did the same with some of CAS (an acquired taste for many) and "Driving The Last Spike" could be added in the argument. Can you blame them? Playing a small arena to 2,500 geeky dudes like ourselves OR selling out a stadium of 30,000+ to a mix of people (including girls!!). As a band its a no-brainer. When some of the prog bands did some shark jumping they possibly took on some new fans who discovered the earlier prog tunes. I recall when ABACAB was out I enjoyed it, but then my best bud played FOXTROT for me and I was sold. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 08:30
What???
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Posted By: mageestout
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 08:32
Geeky dudes like ourselves.....and you too :) |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 12:00
Such a pointless rant ... totally insane and disrespectful of people's artistry and work. Now you know why they will be remembered far longer for their work than you. You are sounding like a sad, bitter, old fart that didn't make it, and you have to point a finger somewhere except your butt! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 12:30
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Prog jumped the Shark in 1969. Dare to say I'm wrong or drunk. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 13:32
 The problem was the weight of it ,on one occasion the stage they intended to play on couldn't take it and collapsed. Not sure if the gig was cancelled or not. Bit of trivia - Ringo Starr owned it for a while although he sold it on. Not sure who to though.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 14:15
Possibly both. |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 14:22
Nope, still sober. But I'm reconsidering my statement: the year of the Shark was 1968. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 13 2013 at 16:09
I have read somewhere that some gigs had indeed to be cancelled because the stage could not cope with it, this being the main reason why he used it for a very short time and he quickly switched to a traditional (still very big) kit.
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Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: May 14 2013 at 06:52
I could have used Flower Kings, Banks of Eden, but I feel that the Wilson effort is far more feeling like Genesis 1972-75.... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 14 2013 at 14:25
| Another thread that could end up being a discussion about what is 'progressive music'. Anyway just thinking that 'jumping the shark' may have been essential for the future existence of prog. The media stopped taking an interest and that forced it back underground where true creativity flourishes. Music making should be for enjoyment not for money. |
Posted By: axeman
Date Posted: May 14 2013 at 19:33
------------- -John |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: May 14 2013 at 20:09
Ya, I had a chance to go to the Procol/Yes show in San Jose last August. They had $250 3rd row "photo-meet-and-greet tix" and at 1st I was excited then I learned the "photo-meet-and-greet" was with Yes not Procol so I passed. I saw Yes many times in the late 70's and the Union show so didn't really care to meet them but $250 to meet Gary Brooker, that would have been worth it!  ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 06:24
------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: mageestout
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 06:50
To me this is sad. Paying $250 to meet someone, chat with them for 4 minutes and get a photo with them. Hell, that's better than what a prostitute makes. I would never pay that amount or anything close to it to meet someone (including a prostitute), no matter who it is. A few years back I saw JON ANDERSON solo and he stayed after to meet and greet people FOR FREE!! I got to talk to him for a few minutes, get his autograph, and get a photo with him. Did I mention this was FOR FREE? And I know a lot of other prog artists are as open. During the PORCUPINE TREE FoaBP tour me and my pals were hanging out right next to Mike Portnoy. We didn't want to "hound" him so we said "Hi" and told him how we appreciated his work - and he chatted with us for a few minutes on his own (which he didn't have to do). I also see the point in certain artists doing this. The record industry has dried up, prog is a draw for only a certain eclectic group of music fans.... it's not like the artists we love are laughing all the way to the bank. ------------- Cheers, Scott |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 07:49
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I find it also a bit pathetic... that a pop star arranges 'photo meet and greet' a part of the running business is one thing, but prog artists are not gonna get millionaire by these in any case. Well, Greg Lake right now could do a 'photo meat and great'
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Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 10:40
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Not trying to defend the $$$-for-autograph thing so prevalent in sports memorabilia (or last years Yes tour), but keep in mind it wasn't just $250 for the "meet and greet" it also included 3rd row seats and free parking at "The Shark Tank" (a venue that regularly charges $20 parking). ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: mageestout
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 11:37
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Who remembers when concert tix were $12-17, parking $3-5, and if you were lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time you'd run into the artist as they entered or left the arena? So much for those days - now bend over and hand over $250 ------------- Cheers, Scott |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 11:52
 ... didn't own a car then so parking wasn't my problem------------- What? |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 12:49
My, how expensive America is! I remember having paid some 50 euros to see Alice Cooper or Iron Maiden in Paris (okay, not in arenas, but in venues able to welcome 10 000 people or more) over these two last years. |
Posted By: mageestout
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 13:16
Yep. We're capitalist pigs. Just ask Roger Waters. ------------- Cheers, Scott |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: May 15 2013 at 13:22
I just checked the prices for his Wall concert in Paris, Stade de France: it ranges from 56 euros (in the grass of the Stadium) to 122 euros for the "Golden Square". But, on the other hand, who in his/her right mind would like to see Grumpy Waters swindling people by playing the songs from an album released more than 30 years ago - without the other guys of Pink Floyd??? |