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Is classic prog plagued by bad ending tracks?

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Topic: Is classic prog plagued by bad ending tracks?
Posted By: RedNightmareKing
Subject: Is classic prog plagued by bad ending tracks?
Date Posted: June 10 2013 at 18:32
There are certain records from the classic era that exhibit poor closing tracks, be it full or certain parts. Examples I came up with were as follows:

Selling England by the Pound: "Aisle of Plenty". I feel Cinema Show would have ended the album much more properly, and that this was a sort of filler.

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway: "It.". This track doesn't really wrap the album up for me, coming in at around 3~ minutes if I recall correctly.

666: "Break". After a twisting and turning epic (All the Seats Were Occupied), we get this. A sappy pop tune, which kind of kills the flow.

In The Court of the Crimson King: "The Court of the Crimson King". The cold ending to this track after the free-jazz freakout felt a little forced. The album could've worked better with the 7-minute single version of this track instead of the 9 minute version.

Fragile: "Heart of the Sunrise". I really dislike the reprise of We Have Heaven. The cold ending to Heart of the Sunrise left me on the edge the first time I heard it, and kind of makes the listener beg for more, adding suspense to the next album Close to the Edge. But the reprise... not exactly the ending for such a great album otherwise.

So, is it just me, or do some prog albums suffer from a mediocre last track? Like I stated before, certain parts of tracks or just full ones.


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I consider drone metal to be progressive...



Replies:
Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: June 10 2013 at 18:42
IMO, Aisle of Plenty is by no means weak!! It ties in perfectly as a reprise to Dancing With the Moonlit Knight.

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A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!!


Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: June 10 2013 at 18:49
I thought the cold ending to "The Court Of The Crimson King" works quite well.

Thematically, I can understand "Break"; lyrically, it has nothing to do with the rest of 666.

Possible candidates:

"Lucky Man", from ELP's debut. I think it would have been better to place it between "Take A Pebble" and "Knife Edge".

"Siberiam Khatru" from Yes' Close To The Edge. It sounds more like an album opener than a closer.


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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!


Posted By: RedNightmareKing
Date Posted: June 10 2013 at 18:53
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

I thought the cold ending to "The Court Of The Crimson King" works quite well.

Thematically, I can understand "Break"; lyrically, it has nothing to do with the rest of 666.

Possible candidates:

"Lucky Man", from ELP's debut. I think it would have been better to place it between "Take A Pebble" and "Knife Edge".

"Siberiam Khatru" from Yes' Close To The Edge. It sounds more like an album opener than a closer.


The thing with Lucky Man is that is was kind of thrown in there, but I agree with you on that.

As for Siberian Khatru, I say it could've switched places with And You And I easily.


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I consider drone metal to be progressive...


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 10 2013 at 19:26
I think the classic period is just "overrated" (for lack of a better word atm), you're just realizing that every prog album in the 70's wasn't perfect :P

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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: June 10 2013 at 19:45
I don't think it was plagued by bad closers more than any other era, although there definitely were some subpar ones. I think it's interesting that, whereas conventional wisdom would say that you should close with one of your strongest tracks, one that wraps up the album well, Rush tended to close their albums with tracks that weren't as strong but pointed to the next album instead of wrapping up the album they were on.  Cygnus X-1, for example, sets the stage for Hemispheres, and is in my opinion one of their weaker tracks (still good, though).  Similarly, Vital Signs doesn't seem like the greatest way to end Moving Pictures until you consider that it leads into "Signals" perfectly.

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In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.


Posted By: Prog_Bassist
Date Posted: June 10 2013 at 19:52
i totally disagree on aisle of plenty as well, perfect ending to a perfect album

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Posted By: m2thek
Date Posted: June 10 2013 at 21:13
Aisle of Plenty is the only way to close SEBTP


Posted By: m2thek
Date Posted: June 10 2013 at 21:17
In general I think album structure is a weak point of prog, and something that Genesis did better than most.


Posted By: Eria Tarka
Date Posted: June 10 2013 at 21:31
It was once my favorite son on The Lamb, and I still really love it alot. 

My perfect definition of "bad album closer" would be Mr Bungle's "Mary Go Bye Bye/Nothing". The "song" portion of this track is great, but the last  minutes or so is just an awful way to end the album. LOL

[tube]UboG6Y7ACVs[/tube]  


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Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 01:16
Originally posted by bytor2112

It was once my favorite son on The Lamb, and I still really love it alot. 

My perfect definition of "bad album closer" would be Mr Bungle's "Mary Go Bye Bye/Nothing". The "song" portion of this track is great, but the last  minutes or so is just an awful way to end the album. LOL

[tube]UboG6Y7ACVs[/tube]  

It's not a great ending, but it's typical Mr. Bungle. LOL


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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 02:32
I disagree about any of the classic albums endings mentioned here.
Aisle Of Plenty fits in quite well as an ending. A lot of SEBTP has moments where the music fades away, like in the ending of Dancing With The Moonlit Knight. Wanorak mentioned it as a reprise: well, even better.
Siberian Khatru is a nice closer.
So is the ending of ITCOTCK.
Lucky Man is a wonderful ending, with Emerson's portamento playing. Besides, I like albums with more complex pieces which end at a harmonic way.


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 06:17
Originally posted by RedNightmareKing

There are certain records from the classic era that exhibit poor closing tracks, be it full or certain parts. Examples I came up with were as follows:

Selling England by the Pound: "Aisle of Plenty". I feel Cinema Show would have ended the album much more properly, and that this was a sort of filler.

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway: "It.". This track doesn't really wrap the album up for me, coming in at around 3~ minutes if I recall correctly.

666: "Break". After a twisting and turning epic (All the Seats Were Occupied), we get this. A sappy pop tune, which kind of kills the flow.

In The Court of the Crimson King: "The Court of the Crimson King". The cold ending to this track after the free-jazz freakout felt a little forced. The album could've worked better with the 7-minute single version of this track instead of the 9 minute version.

Fragile: "Heart of the Sunrise". I really dislike the reprise of We Have Heaven. The cold ending to Heart of the Sunrise left me on the edge the first time I heard it, and kind of makes the listener beg for more, adding suspense to the next album Close to the Edge. But the reprise... not exactly the ending for such a great album otherwise.

So, is it just me, or do some prog albums suffer from a mediocre last track? Like I stated before, certain parts of tracks or just full ones.
I agree about "It", it always feels slightly out of place with the rest of the album.
 
"Aisle of Plenty" is a good way to end SEBTP as it links back to the opening track. I suspect some of its impact has been lost since the demise of Fine Fare and Safeway.
 
I also like the way the door opens and leads us back into "We Have Heaven"


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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 06:26
And let's not forget a great few ending tracks
 
"Awaken"
"To Be Over"
"The Fountain of Salmacis"
"Supper's Ready"
 
I could go on


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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 06:35
......the list literally goes on

Floyd - Meddle - Echoes
KC - Lizard - Lizard
Caravan - In the Land... - Nine Feet Underground
Van Damme Generator - Pawn Hearts - Plague
PFM - Per Un Amico - Geranio
Rush - A Farewell to Kings - Cygnus X1
Gong - You Never Blow Your Trip Forever
Area - Arbeit Macht Frei - L'Abbattimento Dello Zeppelin



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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 06:58
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

Van Damme Generator - Pawn Hearts - Plague

Ha! Dave, if they were called that, I wonder if I would have warmed to them more!
Who do you think taught me my `Super Down Under Roo Boot Kick' move?!


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 07:07
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother

Originally posted by Guldbamsen

Van Damme Generator - Pawn Hearts - Plague

Ha! Dave, if they were called that, I wonder if I would have warmed to them more!
Who do you think taught me my `Super Down Under Roo Boot Kick' move?!

Michael Dudikoff?


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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 07:10
I don't necessarily agree with this idea of "bad ending tracks" simply because that's the heart of prog (IMHO).
I wouldn't call any of these tracks "bad", just different, and moving in different directions. I thought that was the whole idea of prog - to take the music to a different plane, even if it does break up the "feel" of an album.
And to mirror others in this forum, Aisle of Plenty is just phenomenal. (Yes, it's just my opinion, but, then again, they're my ears.)

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Welcome to the middle of the film.


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 07:10
The DUDE!!! One of my boyhood idols!!

How about his buddy in those flicks, Steve James, what charisma he had! His moustache alone could take on an army!



Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 07:18
LOLAmerican Ninja.....Oh my, talk about memories.

I watched one of those not too long ago, and it's insane just how bad it was! I mean, I used to lab it up like a small dog, but now.........erm.....you know?LOL 
The 80s were confusing.

Alright let's get back to the thread here, before we start hijacking it with lame white boy Bruce Lee wannabees from the age of head bans and Cyndi Lauper.
How about this for a monster of a closer?
 [TUBE]E_rrhr8uAJ8[/TUBE]


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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 08:21
I can't agree with the OP, of course there are better and worse ending albums, but even Are You Ready Eddy is a decent album closer (shoot me if you want).


Posted By: RedNightmareKing
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 11:46
Well, my opinions were shot down quickly haha. Many points have been proven here, but I still stand by my original thoughts. This has brought about a great discussion though, and that's exactly what I was looking for. 

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I consider drone metal to be progressive...


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 14:21
Never really paid attention to that.....but I imagine you could find some great ending tracks and some bad ones....but I don't think there is any reason to think that classic prog or modern prog either is 'plagued' by bad ending tracks....just lighthouse keepers.
Wink


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Et In Arcadia Ego


Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 15:22
Originally posted by m2thek

Aisle of Plenty is the only way to close SEBTP
 
I agree completely.


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I have many faults. Being wrong is not one of them.


Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 15:47
Dead forum is dead.

Ahem, anyway... I never noticed this problem.


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"It's music, and I like it" - Miles Davis on Sketches of Spain


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: June 11 2013 at 18:00
Originally posted by Prog_Bassist

i totally disagree on aisle of plenty as well, perfect ending to a perfect album

I also disagree. It could not go anywhere else, as it makes for a perfect ending, both musically and lyrically.



Posted By: Neo-Romantic
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 01:24
I firmly and loudly disagree with the sentiment that "It" is a bad ending. This is literally my favorite ending to any narrative album ever. It's my second-favorite Genesis track behind Carpet Crawlers. I don't care if I'm in the minority; I believe it's the point where Rael finds that which he has been lacking in the story all along: a sense of love. It's so upbeat and different because of the sense of new-found positivity that was never there before.


Posted By: fs_tol
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 01:47
The one word that always ends this kind of discussions:
Starless

Also, Amarok :P


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Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 15:33
Is the problem that the closing tracks of some prog albums are improperly placed, or that they are just not good tracks? If you just don't like the tracks, well that's how so many albums are set up (of any genre). Best to worst in that order. If the issue is improper placement, I think more often than not, it's done rather well. Pink Floyd is quite proficient at finishing off albums. Nearly every Rush album finishes with a very good track. Dream Theater's common closing epics might not always be their best works, but they definitely suit the albums and fit nicely.

On the other hand I agree with the observations on Yes' Close to the Edge. Mike Oldfield's Ommadawn had a weak finish (not the title track, but On Horseback song). BUT, I'd say more often than not, and more often than albums from other genres and music styles, prog albums tend to have better structures and setups.


Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 15:41
Originally posted by Horizons

I think the classic period is just "overrated" (for lack of a better word atm), you're just realizing that every prog album in the 70's wasn't perfect :P

Maybe they are just two totally different schools of music.

I think this helps further define things.  If you think something is overrated, and I don't like the newer
stuff at all that you like, maybe we have nothing in common when it comes to musical tastes.

Why try to force it?




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Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 15:51
Originally posted by Metalmarsh89

If you just don't like the tracks, well that's how so many albums are set up (of any genre).

Really? I think it's more like "start with a bang, end with a bang and put all the weaker stuff in the middle".


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 18:28
 Prog is plagued with a lot of bad music period. Just because it's complex, has " profound " lyrics and has 20 different instruments plus a symphony orchestra means it's.... Wait a minute there's a recipe for bad right there. A lot of people think Tales From Topographic Oceans is bad including one guy who played on it. One guy even baled out before it was made. There's a lot of dribble especially after 1975 when it had pretty much eaten itself alive creatively. What was there after TAAB, Close To The Edge, Tarkus, Foxtrot and ITCOTCK.  The big five right there. Everything else was pretty much rehash with a few unique exceptions such as GG, Focus and VDGG.

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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 18:30
Originally posted by Gerinski

I can't agree with the OP, of course there are better and worse ending albums, but even Are You Ready Eddy is a decent album closer (shoot me if you want).

I'm in the same boat with Gerinski. So you can shoot me too.


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Posted By: Earendil
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 18:39
nahhh

 Wink


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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 18:57
Originally posted by Horizons

I think the classic period is just "overrated" (for lack of a better word atm), you're just realizing that every prog album in the 70's wasn't perfect :P
.. but it was fresh and bold.


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 19:07
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

 Prog is plagued with a lot of bad music period. Just because it's complex, has " profound " and has 20 different instruments plus a symphony orchestra means it's.... Wait a minute there's a recipe for bad right there. A lot of people think Tales From Topographic Oceans is bad including one guy who played on it. One guy even baled out before it was made. There's a lot of dribble especially after 1975 when it had pretty much eaten itself alive creatively. What was there after TAAB, Close to the Edge, Tarkus, Foxtrot and ITCOCK.  The big five right there. Everything else was pretty much rehash with a few unique exceptions such as GG, Focus and VDGG.
Just to name a few, because 1975 and 1976 were THE years.






































Also, not bad ending tracks at all Wink


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 20:20
I would beg to differ on a few but Stratosfear was definitely one of TGs classics along with Rubycon and Phaedra. 

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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 20:29
"Los Endos" makes perfect sense as a closing track. If it were at the start it would "Los Beginningos".


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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 21:12
Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Horizons

I think the classic period is just "overrated" (for lack of a better word atm), you're just realizing that every prog album in the 70's wasn't perfect :P
.. but it was fresh and bold.

I couldn't care less. I look at the content more.
That's why i don't think In The Court.. is a 5* album. Sure it was pivotal to progressive music, but that doesn't change the quality of music. 

Lets keep influence and quality separated.  


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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 22:27
I think it's hit or miss overall and it depends what the listener thinks due to what albums he or she has.

I can say that the majority of my prog albums I have good endings. Definitely with in my prog metal collection for sure.

So in my experience because of what I have been exposed to im gonna say no. :)

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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 12 2013 at 22:47
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

I would beg to differ on a few but Stratosfear was definitely one of TGs classics along with Rubycon and Phaedra. 


Al great!!! GRRRRRRRRREAT!!!

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 01:03
Originally posted by Horizons

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Horizons

I think the classic period is just "overrated" (for lack of a better word atm), you're just realizing that every prog album in the 70's wasn't perfect :P
.. but it was fresh and bold.

I couldn't care less. I look at the content more.
That's why i don't think In The Court.. is a 5* album. Sure it was pivotal to progressive music, but that doesn't change the quality of music. 

Lets keep influence and quality separated.  
Actually, I'm not a big fan of ITCOCK.  But  '70s progressive rock bands and solo  artists were recorded  so many great albums that were completly original and great quality then released; today the most prog bands just recycles that heritage because it is impossible to create something so original and better  in the same genre  - aside of the "new" genres what we accepted as progressive rock although that weren't exist in '70s - for example progressive metal and post /math rock.



Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 02:44
More made up genres. Math rock? C'mon give me a break.

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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 03:24
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

More made up genres. Math rock? C'mon give me a break.

You can love it or not but Post / Math Rock is completly original genre and the best thing that happened in progresive music since 70s.
Also, there are not bad ending tracks in the Post/Math, on contrary - so beautiful crescendos I heard


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 03:45
There is no such thing just like there is no such thing as ghosts or UFOs or the Loch Ness Monster. These are made up genres just like many of the made up genres on this site. Read Edward Macan's book. 

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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 04:53
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

There is no such thing just like there is no such thing as ghosts or UFOs or the Loch Ness Monster. These are made up genres just like many of the made up genres on this site. Read Edward Macan's book. 

Those phenomenons as "ghosts", UFO, SHC, oceans' "monsters" and so on, really exists, but the Science can not explain such things yet.
But, Post/Math rock is made by MUSICIANS; there's no mistery; you can listen to them and to see them on a concert. You can talk with them. So, your comparision with obscure mysteries is not valid, even not funny if we have in mind that the SHC phenomenon is not so rare but we still can not explain it...
Well, in 20 yrs people will say "yea, post rock was great" or "f.., it was bs" but there's not so much individuals who can see the future so clear to tell us what exactly will be people's opinion about today's proggy scene.


 

p.s. Oh man, you really don't believe in aliens? This is a group of them, from the planet GonG, a photo taken in early 70s by Direction Centrale Des Renseigments Generaux:






Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 05:24
Originally posted by chopper

And let's not forget a great few ending tracks
 

"Awaken"

"To Be Over"

"The Fountain of Salmacis"

"Supper's Ready"

 

I could go on


Indeed. There are probably more strong album closers than weak closers across the classic prog era.

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 05:37
Originally posted by The Dark Elf

"Los Endos" makes perfect sense as a closing track. If it were at the start it would "Los Beginningos".

Los Endos is one of the greatest Symphonic Prog instrumentals I ever heard.


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 06:20
What is Maths Rock? What is mathmaticical about it? Is it calculated music? Is it computer written?  Was Bach Maths Orchestral?

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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 06:58
Originally posted by Svetonio

Those phenomenons as "ghosts", UFO, SHC, oceans' "monsters" and so on, really exists, but the Science can not explain such things yet.

 
 
Can you back up that statement with evidence?


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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 06:59
Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by The Dark Elf

"Los Endos" makes perfect sense as a closing track. If it were at the start it would "Los Beginningos".

Los Endos is one of the greatest Symphonic Prog instrumentals I ever heard.
It's not an instrumental, it has singing on it.

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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 07:00
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

There is no such thing just like there is no such thing as ghosts or UFOs or the Loch Ness Monster. These are made up genres just like many of the made up genres on this site. Read Edward Macan's book. 

Every genre is made up. King Crimson didn't sit down in 1969 and decided "we're gonna make a progressive rock record". The Ramones didn't call themselves punk rock when they first started to play - journalists invented the term. When a new type of music comes along, people will start to label it, and one name will eventually stick. So why not math rock?

As for the "genres" on this website, many of them are just umbrella terms used for convenience. I think we can all agree that "Eclectic Prog" or "Crossover Prog" aren't actual styles of music, but they do make sense for categorizing bands on this website.


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 07:01
Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by The Dark Elf

"Los Endos" makes perfect sense as a closing track. If it were at the start it would "Los Beginningos".

Los Endos is one of the greatest Symphonic Prog instrumentals I ever heard.
It's not an instrumental, it has singing on it.

Are you me? A bit pedantic by even my standards.LOL


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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 07:01
Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Those phenomenons as "ghosts", UFO, SHC, oceans' "monsters" and so on, really exists, but the Science can not explain such things yet.

 
 
Can you back up that statement with evidence?

Of course he can't.


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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 07:16
Originally posted by Snow Dog

Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by The Dark Elf

"Los Endos" makes perfect sense as a closing track. If it were at the start it would "Los Beginningos".

Los Endos is one of the greatest Symphonic Prog instrumentals I ever heard.
It's not an instrumental, it has singing on it.

Are you me? A bit pedantic by even my standards.LOL
LOL thanks.
OK it's a bit pedantic, but there are vocals on it (albeit briefly).
 
I've always wondered what constitues an instrumental - is it a song with no voices at all or with no words e.g. is The Beatles "Flying" an instrumental?


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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 07:19
Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Snow Dog

Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by The Dark Elf

"Los Endos" makes perfect sense as a closing track. If it were at the start it would "Los Beginningos".

Los Endos is one of the greatest Symphonic Prog instrumentals I ever heard.
It's not an instrumental, it has singing on it.

Are you me? A bit pedantic by even my standards.LOL
LOL thanks.
OK it's a bit pedantic, but there are vocals on it (albeit briefly).
 
I've always wondered what constitues an instrumental - is it a song with no voices at all or with no words e.g. is The Beatles "Flying" an instrumental?

I'd say technically they are not. What irritates  me is Rush "instrumentals" with background  vocalisations from Geddy.  I  hate that. Wish I could  cut it out.


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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 07:31
Originally posted by Snow Dog


What is Maths Rock? What is mathmaticical about it? Is it calculated music? Is it computer written?  Was Bach Maths Orchestral?


It's a modern name for 'prog rock'

As far as I can see it's characterised by a number of musical principles than underpin pretty much all progressive rock. A sub genre for the sake of a sub genre?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Math_rock" rel="nofollow - Math rock

Relatively young bands, too cool for the prog label??

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: VOTOMS
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 07:34
math rock = technical modern rock 

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http://myanimelist.net/profile/BradherleysCoach" rel="nofollow - http://myanimelist.net/profile/BradherleysCoach


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 07:35
So that's Maths Rock. Sounds awful.

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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 07:37
"math rock frequently uses asymmetrical http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature" rel="nofollow - time signatures such as 7/8, 11/8, or 13/8, or features constantly changing meters based on various groupings of 2 and 3. "
 
So Supper's Ready is math rock then?


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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 07:38
Originally posted by chopper

"math rock frequently uses asymmetrical http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature" rel="nofollow - time signatures such as 7/8, 11/8, or 13/8, or features constantly changing meters based on various groupings of 2 and 3. "
 
So Supper's Ready is math rock then?

No it isn't  noisy  enough or distorted enough  so is less "mathematical"


-------------
Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 09:23
Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by The Dark Elf

"Los Endos" makes perfect sense as a closing track. If it were at the start it would "Los Beginningos".


Los Endos is one of the greatest Symphonic Prog instrumentals I ever heard.


It's not an instrumental, it has singing on it.

Yea, few seconds just like some echoes make it a vocaly track   


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 09:38
Originally posted by Snow Dog


Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Those phenomenons as "ghosts", UFO, SHC, oceans' "monsters" and so on, really exists, but the Science can not explain such things yet.
 

 

Can you back up that statement with evidence?

Of course he can't.

There is a lot of evidences that a number od phenomenas exists, but the Science is not able to explain what is that yet. For example, SHC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 09:49
Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Snow Dog


Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Those phenomenons as "ghosts", UFO, SHC, oceans' "monsters" and so on, really exists, but the Science can not explain such things yet.
 

 

Can you back up that statement with evidence?

Of course he can't.

There is a lot of evidences that a number od phenomenas exists, but the Science is not able to explain what is that yet. For example, SHC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion
I'm quite prepared to believe in SHC as it's an observed phenomena but one we haven't found a definitive scientific explanation for, however ghosts and UFOs are a different thing and generally explainable e.g. the guy who reported he must have been abducted by aliens as his watch was an hour slow so he must have lost an hour of his life, also he'd seen a strange object in the sky. The authorities wrote back explaining about the weather balloon that had been in the area and about the clocks going back that night!

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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 10:00
Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Snow Dog


Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Those phenomenons as "ghosts", UFO, SHC, oceans' "monsters" and so on, really exists, but the Science can not explain such things yet.
 

 

Can you back up that statement with evidence?

Of course he can't.

There is a lot of evidences that a number od phenomenas exists, but the Science is not able to explain what is that yet. For example, SHC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion
I'm quite prepared to believe in SHC as it's an observed phenomena but one we haven't found a definitive scientific explanation for, however ghosts and UFOs are a different thing and generally explainable e.g. the guy who reported he must have been abducted by aliens as his watch was an hour slow so he must have lost an hour of his life, also he'd seen a strange object in the sky. The authorities wrote back explaining about the weather balloon that had been in the area and about the clocks going back that night!

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than you are dreamt in your philosophy"


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 10:13
Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Snow Dog


Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Those phenomenons as "ghosts", UFO, SHC, oceans' "monsters" and so on, really exists, but the Science can not explain such things yet.
 

 

Can you back up that statement with evidence?

Of course he can't.

There is a lot of evidences that a number od phenomenas exists, but the Science is not able to explain what is that yet. For example, SHC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion
I'm quite prepared to believe in SHC as it's an observed phenomena but one we haven't found a definitive scientific explanation for, however ghosts and UFOs are a different thing and generally explainable e.g. the guy who reported he must have been abducted by aliens as his watch was an hour slow so he must have lost an hour of his life, also he'd seen a strange object in the sky. The authorities wrote back explaining about the weather balloon that had been in the area and about the clocks going back that night!

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than you are dreamt in your philosophy"

Spontaneous combustion  has been proved as  hokum. At least  there is no evidence to support it. And a  quote from Shakespear  proves nothing.


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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 10:48
Wow I opened a can of worms here. What was the title of this thread? I guess it mattered back in the days of vinyl but these days with all this downloading sh*t people just make up their own albums and put the tracks in the order they want. 
The best ending track on an album for be back in the days of horse and buggies and long division was the 1975 Focus compilation album Dutch Masters with that " fast version " of Hocus Pocus. When I got that I just freaked out because I bought the album without even having heard this "fast " version. Hearing that end fade for the first time was so cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq75LCE73mM" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq75LCE73mM

I think another great end track was Canario from ELPs Love Beach. After sitting through the whole mess finally you got some relief that the album wasn't all that horrible. I even saw Carl Palmer play it on his solo tour. 


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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 11:09
THIS

[TUBE]gDbAtWpoA6k[/TUBE]


Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 11:09
Originally posted by Snow Dog

Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Snow Dog

Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by The Dark Elf

"Los Endos" makes perfect sense as a closing track. If it were at the start it would "Los Beginningos".

Los Endos is one of the greatest Symphonic Prog instrumentals I ever heard.
It's not an instrumental, it has singing on it.

Are you me? A bit pedantic by even my standards.LOL
LOL thanks.
OK it's a bit pedantic, but there are vocals on it (albeit briefly).
 
I've always wondered what constitues an instrumental - is it a song with no voices at all or with no words e.g. is The Beatles "Flying" an instrumental?

I'd say technically they are not. What irritates  me is Rush "instrumentals" with background  vocalisations from Geddy.  I  hate that. Wish I could  cut it out.


Don't know about you, but I still refer to Pink Floyd's "Careful with that Axe, Eugene" and "One of These Days" as instrumentals. Just one spoken line in each one, but I would say that would constitute an instrumental, as would there rendition of "Several Species of Small Furry Animals...".


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 11:28
What is Hocus Pocus then. A polka? maybe they should have had an alp horn solo.

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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 11:32
My fav ending track by Jethro Tull. 

[TUBE]voqTSufmApY[/TUBE]

Simply fantastic.


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 11:33
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

Wow I opened a can of worms here. What was the title of this thread? I guess it mattered back in the days of vinyl but these days with all this downloading sh*t people just make up their own albums and put the tracks in the order they want. 
The best ending track on an album for be back in the days of horse and buggies and long division was the 1975 Focus compilation album Dutch Masters with that " fast version " of Hocus Pocus. When I got that I just freaked out because I bought the album without even having heard this "fast " version. Hearing that end fade for the first time was so cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq75LCE73mM" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq75LCE73mM

I think another great end track was Canario from ELPs Love Beach. After sitting through the whole mess finally you got some relief that the album wasn't all that horrible. I even saw Carl Palmer play it on his solo tour. 

Canario isn't the end track though.


-------------
Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 11:42
... by GonG... a title track as ending track as well...

[TUBE]TMLhvZB70HE&list=PLD563AF4BC4A986B8[/TUBE]


Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: June 13 2013 at 21:54
Originally posted by Wanorak

IMO, Aisle of Plenty is by no means weak!! It ties in perfectly as a reprise to Dancing With the Moonlit Knight.

As the album is for me Genesis's look at a decaying 70's England in all things history, commerce, love, crime etc---Aisle of Plenty does tie it all up nicely. 


Posted By: Popovych
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 05:59
I think Genesis should have been switched Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacsis, from beginning to end.

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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 06:58
I think  that  the Too Old ...  is shamfuly underatted album!! 
Just listen to the beautiful ending track, this is non folk Jethro Tull at their best Approve

[TUBE]yqycPzzeE5o[/TUBE]


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 07:02
What do you mean non-folk? Tull aren't a folk band.

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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 07:12
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

What do you mean non-folk? Tull aren't a folk band.

They definitely have some Folk Rock or Prog Foik output.


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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 07:41
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

What do you mean non-folk? Tull aren't a folk band.
Too old ... the album went in the middle of Jethro Tull's Prog Folk phase.

Well, because I ' m too old ( for r'n'r and ...), and in my time there was two ending tracks per an album, because of those two sides of a vinyl LPs, I'd liike to post this amazing balllad too...

[TUBE]2rz_lNdgvO4[/TUBE]


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 08:00
Originally posted by Snow Dog

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Snow Dog


Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Those phenomenons as "ghosts", UFO, SHC, oceans' "monsters" and so on, really exists, but the Science can not explain such things yet.
 

 

Can you back up that statement with evidence?

Of course he can't.

There is a lot of evidences that a number od phenomenas exists, but the Science is not able to explain what is that yet. For example, SHC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion
I'm quite prepared to believe in SHC as it's an observed phenomena but one we haven't found a definitive scientific explanation for, however ghosts and UFOs are a different thing and generally explainable e.g. the guy who reported he must have been abducted by aliens as his watch was an hour slow so he must have lost an hour of his life, also he'd seen a strange object in the sky. The authorities wrote back explaining about the weather balloon that had been in the area and about the clocks going back that night!

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than you are dreamt in your philosophy"

Spontaneous combustion  has been proved as  hokum. At least  there is no evidence to support it. And a  quote from Shakespear  proves nothing.

Yes, it proves a lot. For example, let's imagine "Horatio" bump to see this:

[TUBE]v9tzzDWFBRU[/TUBE]

What he's gonna to say about? Those guys are demons, angels or gods?


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 08:11
Not arguing with you anymore.  It is off topic.

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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 08:24
Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Snow Dog

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Snow Dog


Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by Svetonio

Those phenomenons as "ghosts", UFO, SHC, oceans' "monsters" and so on, really exists, but the Science can not explain such things yet.
 

 

Can you back up that statement with evidence?

Of course he can't.

There is a lot of evidences that a number od phenomenas exists, but the Science is not able to explain what is that yet. For example, SHC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion
I'm quite prepared to believe in SHC as it's an observed phenomena but one we haven't found a definitive scientific explanation for, however ghosts and UFOs are a different thing and generally explainable e.g. the guy who reported he must have been abducted by aliens as his watch was an hour slow so he must have lost an hour of his life, also he'd seen a strange object in the sky. The authorities wrote back explaining about the weather balloon that had been in the area and about the clocks going back that night!

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than you are dreamt in your philosophy"

Spontaneous combustion  has been proved as  hokum. At least  there is no evidence to support it. And a  quote from Shakespear  proves nothing.

Yes, it proves a lot. For example, let's imagine "Horatio" bump to see this:

What he's gonna to say about? Those guys are demons, angels or gods?

They're scientists.




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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 08:29
Anyway, as Ian said, we're getting well off topic here.

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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 08:34
Is there another Ian around here?

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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 08:35
Always has been.

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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 09:14
There's only Ian. Wink Well there are others, but you know what I mean

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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 14 2013 at 11:01
Originally posted by Popovych

I think Genesis should have been switched Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacsis, from beginning to end.


Woohoo. This could work. ;)

Wouldn't ruin the structure or integrity of the album flow. Good ear man.



-------------
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 15 2013 at 09:30
Fair point about Aphrodite's Child 666 album. Break is a very odd track to finish with and totally out of character with the rest of the album . However All The Seats Were Occupied is actually just a rehash of music on the first 3 sides. The album comes to a natural conclusion on Side 3 and Side 4 is just there to make it into a double. (still one of my favourite albums nevertheless)

SHC - I thought this had been explained? The human body burns likes a candle and sometimes all that is left is the feet




Posted By: stegor
Date Posted: June 15 2013 at 23:18
I just want to take this back to the beginning for a sec because Isle of Plenty is one of the best endings to one of the best albums ever. The last track should make you want to go back and start it over, and that reprise of Moonlit Knight does just that. And the lyrics are so absurd, but they wrap it all up into the title. Brilliant.

-edit-

I just realized my post just reprised the first post of this thread, just like Isle of Plenty reprises Moonlit Night. Brilliant.Approve


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 15 2013 at 23:27
Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by Popovych

I think Genesis should have been switched Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacsis, from beginning to end.


Woohoo. This could work. ;)

Wouldn't ruin the structure or integrity of the album flow. Good ear man.


Are you two implying that Fountain is bad? Or worse than Box? Cuz both are wrong Tongue

I'm not sure what the point of this is ;[??


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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 16 2013 at 10:26
Hi,
 
It's more plagued by people that do not listen to "music" and people who think that top ten endings is the only thing that anyone out there can create!
 
There is no such thing! You either take the whole person, or you are just "demanding" that someone kiss your holy feet and garters!
 
All of us have "defects" ... and in some albums there might be one song you don't like ... but is that person less of an artist or appreciated because they have a club foot?
 
Please look at the source and the art ... stop worrying about 3 minutes, that supposedly tear it up for you ... and sometimes it was done on purpose, as in the case of Kevin Ayers and Roy Harper ... they put things in the loo and such in there on purpose to prevent you from creating an image of a "star" that is obnoxious, stupid and sick!
 
PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE.  And what they do, they DO. And if they worry about your concern for a bad track, then you know why you are not in their place!  Somebody's poop is someone else's gold ... just ask Ozzie!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 01:01
^ Which is entirely irrelevant as you are basically stating that any negative thoughts about music are bad. Total poppycock! You are allowed to not like certain tracks and you are allowed to discuss this openly. Moshkito please stop being such an arse thanks.


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 08:59
Originally posted by Horizons


Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by Popovych

I think Genesis should have been switched Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacsis, from beginning to end.


Woohoo. This could work. ;)

Wouldn't ruin the structure or integrity of the album flow. Good ear man.


Are you two implying that Fountain is bad? Or worse than Box? Cuz both are wrong Tongue
I'm not sure what the point of this is ;[??


To whom are you referring to? Me? If so, it shall be made clear that neither are bad tracks in any Sense of the word. I'm in agreement with popovych where the musical box would make a good ending track rather than an opener as it is.

That's all. :)

-------------
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:08
Originally posted by Horizons

Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by Popovych

I think Genesis should have been switched Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacsis, from beginning to end.


Woohoo. This could work. ;)

Wouldn't ruin the structure or integrity of the album flow. Good ear man.


Are you two implying that Fountain is bad? Or worse than Box? Cuz both are wrong Tongue

I'm not sure what the point of this is ;[??
He's just saying that you could have swapped the order of both tracks, I tend to agree as both have brilliant climatic endings. "Fountain" also has arguably a more dramatic beginning.

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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Swedish Prog Mafia
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 10:01
Everytime I hear 'It' I cry, it's the true essential ending of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway musically and storywise. Masterpiece!


Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 10:21
Originally posted by Swedish Prog Mafia

Everytime I hear 'It' I cry, it's the true essential ending of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway musically and storywise. Masterpiece!

Have to agree--(not the crying part all the timeBig smile)-- IT is the perfect end ---it pulls all the meaning of The Lamb together--plus that repetitious Hackett guitar riff is just genius.


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 10:25
So many great ending tracks out there - even among those most people tend to neglect (or despiseTongue). A thing like Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast fx.

Marmalade.....I like marmalade. 
I really do.




-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 11:03
Originally posted by stegor

I just want to take this back to the beginning for a sec because Isle of Plenty is one of the best endings to one of the best albums ever. The last track should make you want to go back and start it over, and that reprise of Moonlit Knight does just that. And the lyrics are so absurd, but they wrap it all up into the title. Brilliant.

-edit-

I just realized my post just reprised the first post of this thread, just like Isle of Plenty reprises Moonlit Night. Brilliant.Approve

LOL
I agree when it comes to Isle of Plenty, but even if the lyrics seem absurd, they do make sense because of the puns on British supermarkets: Safeway, Fine Fare and Tesco, and there’s even a reference to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retailers_cooperative" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retailers%27_cooperative

- which explains her discount. A perfect ending.


-------------
He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 11:30
Originally posted by richardh

^ Which is entirely irrelevant as you are basically stating that any negative thoughts about music are bad. Total poppycock! You are allowed to not like certain tracks and you are allowed to discuss this openly. Moshkito please stop being such an arse thanks.
 
You're only supporting a socialist/homogenic theme in a board like this ... that everyone has to agree to the idea that this and that is correct! And like most religions, that means you can not do something or other, because it has to be done just like Steve Hackett did it! Or Peter Hammill!
 
We should know a lot better, and your statement is out of line, and much more negative than mine ... which was trying to stand up for the individuality that Hackett, Hammill and so many others had ... that TODAY, you are not allowing any other composers or bands to do something different and free ... instead of the same thing, because we think such and such.
 
I stood up for the freedom ... you didn't like that!
 
Sorry to hear it, because you will kill "progressive" and "prog" with your ideas!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 18 2013 at 11:38
^Pedro. you don't half spout some poppycock.

I for one do not like It, the final song on Lamb and no saying that I should because the artist liked it is going to change that.


-------------
Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">



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