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Steven Wilson, Prog heritage and legacy

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=94144
Printed Date: August 21 2018 at 08:47
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Topic: Steven Wilson, Prog heritage and legacy
Posted By: IGNEO1991
Subject: Steven Wilson, Prog heritage and legacy
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 10:11


If you examine what Steven Wilson says, particularly in interviews, about progressive music- he will say that it is about artists moving beyond the norm, incorporating different musical styles and creating something new that ‘ shouldn't be looking at the past ‘. In this context for example he attacks the Flower Kings and Transatlantic for being regressive and not moving beyond the classic progressive rock sound. This debate is found in Roine Stolt, V Steven Wilson thread http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=88744&PN=1" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=88744&PN=1   . 

However, not to turn this topic into an album review, but what I find with Steven’s latest album, (TRTRTS) is a man running out of ideas and resorting largely to an ‘classic progressive rock’ escapism. ‘Luminol’, ‘The Holy drinker’ and ‘the Watch-maker’ are all complete ‘classic progressive rock’ rip-offs- implicitly and unquestionably referring to the likes of Yes and Genesis for example. Because of this, I personally think the music suffers as a consequence.   His justification for his latest musical direction, from examining interviews, is that ‘we are all influenced by previous musical developments and this comes across when a writer makes music’, yet he wanted to create an album that ‘sounded like it could only be made ‘now’. These seem very poor justifications/ explanations of Steven’s latest ‘classic progressive rock sound’.

I admire both the ‘classic progressive rock sound’ and the ‘new progressive sound’, but whether or not you love Steven’s new record, there is a considerable amount of regression not progression which annoys me considering his previous ‘Flower Kings statement’ on progressive rock.

I suppose this begs the question, has ‘progressive rock’ or progressive music reached its time- or more specifically has Steven Wilson reached his time - being unable to create ‘new’, fresh material that tries hard to break from existing musical clichés and traditions?



Replies:
Posted By: Knobby
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 10:18
Nothing in music is dated - except crooners, country music, metal and hiphop.
 
Not familiar with this Steven Wilson of yours  though.


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 10:31
Not a fan of the baiting title of this thread...but there is no doubt that Wilson is...shall we say, `embracing' the vintage progressive rock sounds of old on his most recent two solo albums.

But there is no way I would dismiss `The Raven...' as being a mere clone of 70's works. Many classic era influences implemented into the material, but more than enough modern and contemporary sounds too. Oh, and it's damn good as well.

I love all of Wilson's work, and am a mad Flower Kings fan as well, but the constant cycle of this `FK's vs Wilson' story popping up again is really tired.

And there is not even the slighest sign that `progressive rock has reached it's time'! There are so many oustanding, cutting edge and fascinating releases so far this year alone, so plenty of life left in the genre!


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 10:39
I have only listened to a couple or so tracks of Raven...and that did sound like a retro affair to me.  Yes, if that is representative of the album as such, then what he is doing is not very different from TFK/Stolt.  But it's not surprising, Wilson's statements, that is.  The impression I have formed from various interviews is that he cares a lot about how his work is perceived and perhaps says things he might go on to regret in trying to address what he might think is a wrong perception of his work. He once claimed that he could have been much more successful working in the 70s.  Ha, pretty lofty, notwithstanding the state of the industry at that time. 


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 10:48
There's a lot of modern moments on 'The Raven', one shall be totally deaf not to notice them.

'Drive Home' is a completely britpop track with some folk-ish flute.

'The Pin Drop' is much more like 'In Formaldehyde' and other alternative rock stuff from previous Wilson's works.

Finale of 'Watchmaker' was definitely inspired by death/doom metal.

Guitars in title track are somewhat post-rockish.

Moreover, one man's opinion might change as time passes by.

So before call someone 'hypocrite', take a look at the nearest mirror.

UPD: My message #666, lol.


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This night wounds time.


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 10:51
I should have added, the other thing is that Steven Wilson has simply proven himself as one of the most productive, consistently on top of his game and hard-working individuals in the modern progressive rock scene, and he has a generally faultless track record for quality progressive music releases. Whether you like him or not, it’s impossible not to acknowledge his efforts, or the well-earned status he has found himself in the modern prog scene!


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 10:52
If his opinion is subject to change, all the more reason he could have waited to grow older and wiser than attacking the choices of an older colleague in the industry.  It is wonderful if Wilson sees himself as the self anointed white knight of modern prog but what on earth would be his problem with somebody else deciding to play, well, what he wants to play.  It may be old now but the fact is Wilson has never said he was wrong to blast retro prog all the while that he is now gushing about the 70s. I suspect he has a bit of a chip on his shoulder.   


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 10:55
Well, the strangest thing here is that there's a bunch of narrow-minded people who not just dislike Wilson (it's okay to dislike someone), but also try to shout their important opinion on him as loud as it is possible.


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This night wounds time.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 10:58
lol, offended, much?  I have never met him and have no like or dislike towards him as a person.  These are my observations on his personality based on his own words and if they are too unpleasant for you, that's really not my problem.  


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 11:00
I haven't told that about you, sir. Moreover, at the moment I posted my message, I even haven't read yours.


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This night wounds time.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 11:02
Ok, I will accept that though I don't see any other post in this thread either that expresses dislike for Wilson as a person.


Posted By: IGNEO1991
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 11:08
I should have probably added that i am a big Steven Wilson fan, and yes there is some new and inspiring stuff on his latest record, which i do not deny- i particularly like 'the pin drop', 'drive home' and 'the Raven' .But i want to point this issue out, which has probably already been debated in the Stolt v Wilson thread, that there is an element of hypocrisy here- these 'classic prog rock sounds' are, at many times, at the forefront of this record , almost like he is trying to emulate these 'classic' themes of the 70's. This really goes against his ' true innovative progressive' ethos which he has, in my opinion, channeled so well particularly in Porcupine Tree, with albums such as FOABP and In Absentia- which were new and inspiring. 


Posted By: IGNEO1991
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 11:14
I never implied that i dislike Wilson - or hate him-  on the contrary i love him and his work! it is a discussion of his incorporation of the 'retro' or 'classic progressive rock' sound into his latest material. 


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 11:15
There is no doubt that Wilson is more `retro' sounding on his two most recent solo works. Most Porcupine Tree albums (well the ones up until FOABP) not only sounded completely different from eachother, but brought a contemporary and modern sound to classic progressive rock styles.

When I listened to `The Raven...' (and doing that right now again too, thanks for the inspiration!), I can't help thinking that it reflects how Steven spent so long wanting to move away from the vintage prog sounds that he actually forgot how much he fell in love with them in the first place! You can hear the energy and excitement of the vintage sounds in the music itself!

Urgh, approaching Wilson fanboy levels of excitement there, sorry fellas!


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 11:16
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Ok, I will accept that though I don't see any other post in this thread either that expresses dislike for Wilson as a person.

Well, but rather the very situation exists, and it kinda irritates me.

I myslef not the biggest fan of 'The Raven', btw, and find Wilson's previous works more attractive to my ear, so I rather surprised it has better reviews than 'Grace for Drowning'.

If someone dilkises some band or artists, there is best way just to ignore that artist. For example, I'm not a big fan of The Beatles. I might say they're overrated or losing my interest in comparison with someone another, but I'll never run shouting about how I hate them.

But in the case with Steven Wilson, I even don't know how to express that, but there are some people, they... they just hate him in the same way as some 13-years old girls might hate bands like HIM, with which other 13-years old girls are obsessed with. That looks like some kind of latent love, I don't know.

For exaple, look at that review: http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=929249
There are thousands ways to write a negative review on an album, but to start it with words like 'I decided to finish my hate affair with this musician'... sorry, but that sounds just like Robert Christgau.


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This night wounds time.


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 11:18
Wilson's opinionated and sometimes mouths off a bit.  He's a passionate guy.  Lots of people are like that.  If he's a hypocrite, then so are about half the people you see on the street every day.. It's really no big deal.  John Lennon did that a lot too - lots of contradictions between what he said in 1966 vs what he said in 1973.  They're just humans like us.


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My other avatar is a Porsche

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.

-Kehlog Albran


Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 11:28


Speak for yourself puny human.

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Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 11:29
You are making me very angry.

-------------
My other avatar is a Porsche

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.

-Kehlog Albran


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 15:08
There's a difference from having influences from the past and sounding pastoral. Stevens recognizes this line.

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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.


Posted By: JaySpiral
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 16:11
TRTRTS is a frustrating album to listen to for me. I want to enjoy it. But there are so many blatant rip-offs from classic prog that it's just annoying. Luminol may as well be straight from Fragile by Yes.

I love Steven Wilson but that album is frustrating. And I think based on what he said, that is a bit hypocritical of him. But who cares? People's minds can change.


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 19:50
Well...I like his work with PT better than his solo material and to me Raven does not sound all that retro at times.
Still it's obvious in many of his songs that he is influenced greatly by the classic prog bands and is a big fan of KC obviously so he does contradict himself at times.
But hypocrite..? I don't think so.


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: Earthmover
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 20:36
I want him to experiment more, or at least to return to Insurgentes sound. Insurgentes is awesome, probably his most diverse and daring record. I don't enjoy The Raven as much and it's really because of 70s influence - not something I would expect from Wilson, and not in a good way. But I hope it's just a warm-up record. He's just got his new band set, after all.

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http://www.last.fm/user/Bequeathed" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 21 2013 at 21:08
I don't really care whatever he might have said in the past, and whether his opinion changed, or he didn't see his album as regressive, or whatever. The fact is I really liked The Raven album a lot, I even liked it more than the previous, which I didn't expect to be the case before I got it, and I even think I like it better than the albums I have already heard from Porcupine Tree. Oh yeah, and the concert was fabulous.


Posted By: zeqexes
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 01:05
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

Not a fan of the baiting title of this thread...but there is no doubt that Wilson is...shall we say, `embracing' the vintage progressive rock sounds of old on his most recent two solo albums.

But there is no way I would dismiss `The Raven...' as being a mere clone of 70's works. Many classic era influences implemented into the material, but more than enough modern and contemporary sounds too. Oh, and it's damn good as well.

I love all of Wilson's work, and am a mad Flower Kings fan as well, but the constant cycle of this `FK's vs Wilson' story popping up again is really tired.

And there is not even the slighest sign that `progressive rock has reached it's time'! There are so many oustanding, cutting edge and fascinating releases so far this year alone, so plenty of life left in the genre!

I agree with this.


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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 01:14
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

Wilson's opinionated and sometimes mouths off a bit.  He's a passionate guy.  Lots of people are like that.  If he's a hypocrite, then so are about half the people you see on the street every day.. It's really no big deal.  John Lennon did that a lot too - lots of contradictions between what he said in 1966 vs what he said in 1973.  They're just humans like us.


I don't think normal people are so bitter about what their colleagues do as to pronounce their work as the 'death of their profession'.   Or maybe in a way they are.  Wilson's comments are not very different in a way from the guys who moan about what somebody else got in the appraisal and blaming it entirely and unjustifiably on politics instead of focusing on their job.  In that limited sense, it might be reflective of general attitudes, but an unhealthy and spiteful one at that.  I don't remember members from otherr bands blaming somebody else for a supposedly false image of prog rock and that's as it should be. 


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 01:16
Originally posted by ole-the-first ole-the-first wrote:


For exaple, look at that review: http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=929249
There are thousands ways to write a negative review on an album, but to start it with words like 'I decided to finish my hate affair with this musician'... sorry, but that sounds just like Robert Christgau.


Sounds like poor English to me more than anything.   The rest of his review makes it clear his 'hate' is meant for Wilson's music and not the person as such but he put it badly.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 02:19
Originally posted by JaySpiral JaySpiral wrote:

TRTRTS is a frustrating album to listen to for me. I want to enjoy it. But there are so many blatant rip-offs from classic prog that it's just annoying. Luminol may as well be straight from Fragile by Yes.
... and some CTTE.

So what? Why can't it sound like an homage to classic prog?


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"Books were only one type of receptacle where we stored a lot of things we were afraid we might forget. There is nothing magical in them at all. The magic is only in what books say, ... ."


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 03:57
For sure he should not criticize TFK, Transatlantic etc for something he obviously has ended doing as well, that's unfortunate to use a nice word.
But Steven has proven that he has also creativity enough during his career. It's just that he likes that retro music too, he knows how to make it and he knows that most Prog fans will love it so it's a safe formula for success. I myself like 'Grace' and 'Raven' but not to the point they are generally praised, they sound very nice but there is missing 'substance' IMO. In some way it could be called the equivalent of 'commercial music' within the sub-world of Prog.
But I have nothing against it, look at Wobbler's Rites At Dawn, more blatantly retro-rip-off it can hardly be, and yet I enjoy it!
I'm sure Steven will still release music more original than his latest 2 albums, under his name or as PT or as another project who knows.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 06:58
Steven Wilson has always produced music with a knowing (and acknowledged) nod to the past, whether that was the various PT eras, IEM, Bass Communion, No-Man, Blackfield or any of his solo work (including, obviously, his 6 Cover Version singles), that he should turn his attention to the more art rock/jazzy/symphonic side of Prog should have come as no surprise and whether that is regressive is merely a matter of opinion. What Wilson protested against was not "looking back" and using those influences in a modern context, but about "following the blueprint from 1972 so closely".
 
When I listen to Luminol, Numbers and the Fly From Here suite it is only the latter two that become interchangeable. That's not a criticism, I like Banks of Eden and Fly From Here, but Stolt, (or Horn, Downes and Squire), could have written either piece and they would sit comfortably on either album.
 
Sure there are knowing references to Fragile era Yes in Luminol with the Squire-esque Rickenbacker bass, (albeit played on a Fender Jazz Bass... probably), punctuated jazz drumming, snapped guitar soloing, symphonic keyboard swells and treated electric piano riffs - and as someone said, "it may as well be straight from Fragile" ... take that as a compliment rather than a critique because Numbers and Fly From Here would not have made the final cut against South Side Of the Sky (to pick one track at random) because the abrasion and aggression comes up lacking. For me Yes produced some of the most abrasive music of the 70s for all the harmony and symphony there is an aggression in those core era albums that has been diluted by modern symphonic prog bands, including latter-day Yes themselves unfortunately - perhaps what was seen as  "following the blueprint from 1972 so closely" was in reality not following it closely enough, but merely following the perception of what that blueprint was.
 
 


-------------
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 08:08
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

I don't really care whatever he might have said in the past, and whether his opinion changed, or he didn't see his album as regressive, or whatever. The fact is I really liked The Raven album a lot, I even liked it more than the previous, which I didn't expect to be the case before I got it, and I even think I like it better than the albums I have already heard from Porcupine Tree. Oh yeah, and the concert was fabulous.


I whole-heartedly agree. Thumbs Up
And I love his nods and winks to the music of my youth. It's a hommage, not a rip off, to one and each of the musicians he admire.

The Flower Kings on the other hand, to me they sound like "progged-up" Swedish "Dance-band" music.

It's hard to explain what Dance-band is, you'd have to listen to it, which I don't recommened. LOL



Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 08:26
Hypocrite is way too strong a word to use as ABM pointed out even with the get out of the question mark.
I will accept the fact the Steven likes to have his cake and eat it though. He likes to be seen as the leader of the modern prog scene while reserving the right to 'plunder' seventies ideas and styles. A neat trick if you can pull it offWink


Posted By: IGNEO1991
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 08:41
Why is it too strong a word? I am being direct, and so i should be- if you examine, in the context of him talking about being unprogressive as copying the classic progressive rock sound, when he himself is actually doing this explicitly now, then that is what i would call a hypocrite- i don't hate the man, but i'm not going to beat around the bush and use indirect language to get my point across. 

Also the word 'homage' and 'rip-off' are just the same thing, the latter has negative connotations, but the former doesn't- but again, their is no difference in their ending meaning/result- an 'emulation' (another way of putting it ) is still at work here. I understand that it is incredibly hard to be 'original' these days, when all music has been made before- from pop to noise music and everything in between, but these 'homages' are so direct on his latest record that being suspect is a natural reaction on my part. 


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 09:11
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by JaySpiral JaySpiral wrote:

TRTRTS is a frustrating album to listen to for me. I want to enjoy it. But there are so many blatant rip-offs from classic prog that it's just annoying. Luminol may as well be straight from Fragile by Yes.
... and some CTTE.

So what? Why can't it sound like an homage to classic prog?


Er, because Wilson had originally decided that that gives prog a bad name.  It is this last part that I have a particular quarrel with.  It shows again that Wilson cares too much about public perceptions of his music.  If he calls TFK or some other bands boring or un-progressive, that is ok as that is just his opinion irrespective of what he does within his own music.  But to proceed to say that those bands in some way spoil the business for him is just too much.


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 22 2013 at 10:56
Wilson did have a noticeably anti-prog stance in the 90s, for whatever reason. He didn't want his music referred to as prog, but then he was interviewed in Progression of all places. He also criticized Ozric Tentacles for lack of compositional innovation, but now I hear that what he's been recording has more nods to "vintage" prog than ever.

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http://www.ebay.com/sch/musicosm/m.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1" rel="nofollow - http://www.ebay.com/sch/musicosm/m.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 02:02
Originally posted by IGNEO1991 IGNEO1991 wrote:

Why is it too strong a word? I am being direct, and so i should be- if you examine, in the context of him talking about being unprogressive as copying the classic progressive rock sound, when he himself is actually doing this explicitly now, then that is what i would call a hypocrite- i don't hate the man, but i'm not going to beat around the bush and use indirect language to get my point across. 

Also the word 'homage' and 'rip-off' are just the same thing, the latter has negative connotations, but the former doesn't- but again, their is no difference in their ending meaning/result- an 'emulation' (another way of putting it ) is still at work here. I understand that it is incredibly hard to be 'original' these days, when all music has been made before- from pop to noise music and everything in between, but these 'homages' are so direct on his latest record that being suspect is a natural reaction on my part. 

in terms of getting a discussion going then I suppose its okay but I just don't like the word. Its quite a strong criticism of someone's personality and is a bit like calling someone 'arrogant' ( and I used to think this true of Wilson). At the end of the day you have to be careful about branding other people like this. Would you be okay with being called a hypocrite on something whatever it may be? People are just people (not perfect) and sady will not behave in a way and say things that you like all the time. You have a choice not to buy his albums if you feel that strongly enough about it.


Posted By: IGNEO1991
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 05:31
I apologise to those who are offended by the 'direct' language- by using the word hypocrite. I can empathise with this- i wouldn't like to be called a hypocrite. I suppose it was slightly intended to catch the attention of a few forum members here, but i don't mean to personally attack him- i just wanted to highlight this musical issue in question. I admire Wilson a lot, i am not one of these Wilson haters- but i suppose this discussion can be easily misinterpreted as an attack, which it is not

Hail Wilson! ....However, this does not make Wilson criticism proof- if i feel i need to start a discussion about his music, to see if others agree with my logic, then i shall not fear to raise one. At the end of the day, isn't this what discussion is about? 


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 07:42
If his stance is hypocritical, it is.  Can't really beat around the bush about it.  Yes, he is human and he can have his double standards, all the more reason why it should be alright to point that out.  I am sure Stolt didn't like what Wilson said in the least either and he made that pretty clear.  


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 07:49
...and I believe Wilson subsequently appologised for the remark.

-------------
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:06
I hope so because I couldn't find it anywhere on the interwebz (which doesn't necessarily 'prove' he didn't).  In fact, there's a photo of SW and Portnoy on SW's official facebook page and somebody brought it up again there, saying Wilson ought to apologise to Stolt.  LOL   I believe he also said something nasty about Dream Theater, but he did retract that.  


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:22
I dimmly recall it happened, but in the seven and half years that have passed people keep harping on about Wilson's comment and Stolt's response so often that the interweb is a mass of comments by fans and nothing more by Wilson or Stolt, so finding direct reference to it is a fruitless task.
 
And 7½ years is a long time in internetland.


-------------
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:23
If I recall, Roger, it wasn't so much that Steven said something nasty about Dream Theater, more that `I don't like their type of music, even though they're damn good at it' or something along those lines? I'm sure some rabid Dream Threater on here could clarify the exact comment?!


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:28
Wilson worked with Portnoy in 2003 (OSI)

-------------
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:35
I sure hope I'm never scrutinized as closely as Wilson and held to such a high standard of conduct.  It's kind of eerie how we expect public figures to act.  If it were the President or something, then yeah, but this is just a semi-famous cult musician.   But the public loves finding faults in its heroes, no matter how small, and so this story is perpetuated for 7+ years.  And with internet, the sheer volume of posts and blurbs about it make it exponentially more likely with each passing year that it will continue to show up on searches for "Steven Wilson", even though that hatchet was presumably buried years before.

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My other avatar is a Porsche

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.

-Kehlog Albran


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:36
I like Wilson's last couple solo albums. The Raven is superb. But I am really not interested in what he has to say, nor am I inclined to listen to the opinions of any entertainer. If I may paraphrase Zappa, "Just shut-up and play your guitar".


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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:39
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

I sure hope I'm never scrutinized as closely as Wilson and held to such a high standard of conduct.  It's kind of eerie how we expect public figures to act.  If it were the President or something, then yeah, but this is just a semi-famous cult musician.   But the public loves finding faults in its heroes, no matter how small, and so this story is perpetuated for 7+ years.  And with internet, the sheer volume of posts and blurbs about it make it exponentially more likely with each passing year that it will continue to show up on searches for "Steven Wilson", even though that hatchet was presumably buried years before.

I am sorry but I really don't think showing a bit of respect for a colleague in the same field as yours - unless you have good reason to believe he is doing something illegal/unethical etc - is such a big deal.  If Wilson does want to still go ahead and publicly pull down another musician, sure, but the public is going to talk about whatever becomes, well, public.  


Posted By: Knobby
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:48
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I    I believe he also said something nasty about Dream Theater 
Knobs dont know nuffink about this new Wilson apparent marvel, but on the strength of the above, Knobs will look into his music.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:51
Mutual respect between musicians is not the same as commenting on the work they produce and how they produce it. Wilson has remastered two ELP albums but has said he won't do any more because "I can’t honestly say I love them"... which many interpreted as Wilson saying that he hates ELP. If musicians are not permitted to comment on the work of other musicians we are reducing the world to a population of sycophants.

-------------
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: Knobby
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:54
Be this the Wilson youse all going on about?:
 
"Oh out in Stonehenge, I lived alone/ Arrived in Gamehendge, I chafed a bone."


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:55
Ah, but he went well beyond that w.r.t TFK.  He basically blamed them for "reinforcing every prejudice people have about prog".   There is an element of personal spite in that comment which Stolt didn't take very well at all.  Wilson wants people to think of prog as a specific set of bands including PT (and by implication not TFK).   That's way out of line.   It is perfectly ok to say he doesn't like TFK or even to use less charitable words like "boring".   But he has not restricted himself to that brief at all; the comments read like he has some personal agenda against TFK.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:59
Originally posted by Knobby Knobby wrote:

Be this the Wilson youse all going on about?:
 
"Oh out in Stonehenge, I lived alone/ Arrived in Gamehendge, I chafed a bone."
Nope. That song pre-dates SWilson's rise to prominence by several years so it is unlikely to even be a glancing reference.

-------------
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 09:25
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Ah, but he went well beyond that w.r.t TFK.  He basically blamed them for "reinforcing every prejudice people have about prog".   There is an element of personal spite in that comment which Stolt didn't take very well at all.  Wilson wants people to think of prog as a specific set of bands including PT (and by implication not TFK).   That's way out of line.   It is perfectly ok to say he doesn't like TFK or even to use less charitable words like "boring".   But he has not restricted himself to that brief at all; the comments read like he has some personal agenda against TFK.
Not really, but if you want to propagate that idea then that's what the internet is good at. Wilson was asked to comment on what bands like Radiohead, TMV, TFK and Transatlantic need to do for Progressive music to survive and he gave an answer from his perspective, (which included the direction PT were moving into at the time with previous Absentia and the soon to be released Deadwing, both of which marked change in direction from their earlier albums), about the longevity and continuing survival (future or death) of a genre of music that that has two very distinct and (until now perhaps) incompatible sides (innovation and nostalgia).
 
There was some disengenuous things in Stolts response too, (not withstanding his assertion that 'neither Flowerkings or Transatlantic have ever been dealing with "sci-fi lyrics"' ... which leaves me wondering what the hell Back In The World of Adventures, Retropolis, Stardust We Are and Unfold The Future were all about and why TFK amd SMPTe have sci-fi album cover art work), that it was a contrived publicity move to furher Wilson's career.


-------------
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 09:32
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Ah, but he went well beyond that w.r.t TFK.  He basically blamed them for "reinforcing every prejudice people have about prog".   There is an element of personal spite in that comment which Stolt didn't take very well at all.  Wilson wants people to think of prog as a specific set of bands including PT (and by implication not TFK).   That's way out of line.   It is perfectly ok to say he doesn't like TFK or even to use less charitable words like "boring".   But he has not restricted himself to that brief at all; the comments read like he has some personal agenda against TFK.
Not really, but if you want to propagate that idea then that's what the internet is good at. Wilson was asked to comment on what bands like Radiohead, TMV, TFK and Transatlantic need to do for Progressive music to survive and he gave an answer from his perspective, (which included the direction PT were moving into at the time with previous Absentia and the soon to be released Deadwing, both of which marked change in direction from their earlier albums), about the longevity and continuing survival (future or death) of a genre of music that that has two very distinct and (until now perhaps) incompatible sides (innovation and nostalgia).
 
There was some disengenuous things in Stolts response too, (not withstanding his assertion that 'neither Flowerkings or Transatlantic have ever been dealing with "sci-fi lyrics"' ... which leaves me wondering what the hell Back In The World of Adventures, Retropolis, Stardust We Are and Unfold The Future were all about and why TFK amd SMPTe have sci-fi album cover art work), that it was a contrived publicity move to furher Wilson's career.

I am sure it is possible to pontificate on those things with more sophistication.  The kind that Wilson desires from his supposedly attention deficit Ipod junkie listeners but which is rather missing in his comment.  He did not stop at deciding whether TFK falls on the nostalgia side of the balance (and PT on the innovation side)...he basically said bands like TFK hurt the business for others (like PT).  You don't have to read too much into his words to infer that because short of using those exact words, it's what he said.  It's pretty silly to complain that some other bands give the label that your music is slotted under a bad name and (which seems to be SW's favourite theme) things could have been so much better if only there were no TFK.


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 10:46
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Wilson worked with Portnoy in 2003 (OSI)

Moreover, he participated on 'Systematic Chaos'. And Jordan Rudess played keyboards on his solo albums.


-------------
This night wounds time.


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 10:54
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Mutual respect between musicians is not the same as commenting on the work they produce and how they produce it. Wilson has remastered two ELP albums but has said he won't do any more because "I can’t honestly say I love them"... which many interpreted as Wilson saying that he hates ELP. If musicians are not permitted to comment on the work of other musicians we are reducing the world to a population of sycophants.

Actually Wilson's ELP remasters were a part of Universal's deluxe reissues series. Many of ELP albums were re-released before Wilson came to remaster them, so what's left to reissue in future is mostly poor late stuff like 'Love Beach', so there is no wonder why Wilson dislikes it.


-------------
This night wounds time.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 10:57
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

...
I am sure it is possible to pontificate on those things with more sophistication.  ...
...
 
But we have to get past the idea of likes and dislikes and write a good paper for PA, the new professor!  The problem is, that only a handful of posts in this thread, for example, would make the grade and be useful in a paper to get you a good grade ... everything is opinion and comment, and none of it is centered on the strength of the quotes and ideas presented by Steven himself.
 
We are all a bunch of frustrated nerds and idiots. We want HEROES, and then we decide that we don't like them, because they do not have the proper ending for their 39th song on the 17th album! And then we set about playing judge and jury to kill them, and let people know that we don't like them ... anymore!
 
Something is wrong with this process ... times change ... and people's opinions change ... but we took away Steven's change during that time, too!
 
I do not think that Steven is any bigger a hippocrite than ALL OF US HERE, that have no idea, no guts, and ability to create music ... but we do stand up to define it and tell him that he is wrong, just like that turkey did to Gary Green, explainging to him about progressive music ... and Gary says ... we just played. Nothing was written ...
 
We don't get it, do we?
 
So why, are we holding Steven up to ... some ideal standard, that even he does not believe in?
 
BTW, the thing with ELP, I think ran into issues between Keith and Greg I'm willing to bet ... that simply were not worth the hassle! There is a lot of music out there that could use Steven's touch ... but his ears are too limited and his opinion on things too strong, for him to just do something different. And something that is worth while!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 11:00
Just a small advice for those who will remember 7 years old Wilson/Stolt incident again: you guys just behave like 13 years-old HIM haters. And, honestly, have the same brain.


-------------
This night wounds time.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 11:09
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


I do not think that Steven is any bigger a hippocrite than ALL OF US HERE, that have no idea, no guts, and ability to create music ... but we do stand up to define it and tell him that he is wrong, just like that turkey did to Gary Green, explainging to him about progressive music ... and Gary says ... we just played. Nothing was written ...
 
Actually, by that count alone, he would be wrong...wrong in trying to artificially characterise one set of bands as the death of progressive music, the ones that give it a bad name.    You constantly remind everyone in any thread (irrespective of whether it bears relation to that topic) that people should not have strong opinions on what is and what is not progressive so why do you feel compelled to defend Wilson here.  Let me state it pretty bluntly here:  any member of this forum making a statement with such sweeping generalizations as Wilson in that interview would have been immediately confronted with several people jumping in to correct him and teach him how to write English on the internet.  So why should we be reluctant to apply those same standards to Wilson's opinions?  Are we not guilty somewhere of feeling the need to place him on a pedestal, as if he is somehow above the normal rules that apply to people because he is a renowned musician.  We have to accept that all of Wilson's talents as a musician may not necessarily make all of his opinions entirely positive or respectful.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 11:53
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

...  We have to accept that all of Wilson's talents as a musician may not necessarily make all of his opinions entirely positive or respectful.
 
And that was pretty much what I said ... you just said it in different set of letters and words!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 16:55
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I do not think that Steven is any bigger a hippocrite than ALL OF US HERE, that have no idea, no guts, and ability to create music ... but we do stand up to define it and tell him that he is wrong, just like that turkey did to Gary Green, explainging to him about progressive music ... and Gary says ... we just played. Nothing was written ...
 
You assume that none of us are musicians. Tongue


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 23 2013 at 22:25
Originally posted by Knobby Knobby wrote:

Be this the Wilson youse all going on about?:
 

"Oh out in Stonehenge, I lived alone/ Arrived in Gamehendge, I chafed a bone."



http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=290
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4135

knock yourself out.......


-------------
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 10:20
Originally posted by ole-the-first ole-the-first wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Wilson worked with Portnoy in 2003 (OSI)

Moreover, he participated on 'Systematic Chaos'. And Jordan Rudess played keyboards on his solo albums.

He participates in the song "Repentance" in which he asks for forgiveness for bashing DT music. He said that he just meant that he didn't lilke DT music, but never meant to attack the musicians or individuals or talent or concept of the band. It was just that he doesn't considerate it the same genre that PT. Some kind of lame excuse like that.

That being said. I go away because I think this discussion is turning like a gossip magazine.

Cheers


-------------
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.


Posted By: Sequined_Tears
Date Posted: July 27 2013 at 17:55
I cannot reply to this thread as a seasoned musician, but merely a music lover.

I have been listening to PT since 1998.  A lot has changed since PT began.  I have met him twice and spoken to him in some detail about his music during his Lightbulb Sun tour while I was living in London.  This is what I got from his conversation.  MY interpretation, no quotes so don't cyber slap me if I step on sensitive toes.

Steven Wilson has a lot of pans on the fire for a reason.  He does not deny he wants to be a successful musician.  Like most artist, he wants to make a living doing what he loves.  He did not want to work a day job.  So, once Lightbulb Sun hit the scene, he was learning what the new generation liked and wanted.  For instance, during my backstage discussion a 13 yr old kid entered and was praising him for Four Chords Made A Million, my least favorite song on LIghtbulb Sun.  When the kid left, SW just pointed toward the door and said "See?".  His appreciation of SW was completely different than mine.   SW was seeing what the young people liked and was beginning to adapt.  I thought Lightbulb Sun was very different than anything that came before it and it made me nervous.  He was very humble in regards to his guitar playing.  He, to my knowledge, has never claimed to be a guitar god of any sort.  He learned guitar so he could get the music in his head down on paper.  The reason he continues to release under Steven Wilson, Blackfield, etc. is he can use those releases as an outlet to play the music he truly loves.  The PT that once was is now filtered through his side projects.  The 'new' PT is aimed toward the visual, MTV-loving emo kids that want to listen to dark, obscure music you don't hear on the radio, but is still packaged neatly for a consumer driven industry.  I love dark music as much as anyone can, but I still want to hear multiple time changes, difficult instrumentation, simplistic, soulful solos.  The younger generation can depend on PT to deliver dark, meloncholy music, but still in a way that they can process.  Most young people want something they can catch, hold and copy if they desire.  So, he left the spaciness behind and added a Helmet (metal) like sound to appeal to the new generation....and it totally worked.

Now, for the long time lover of what PT once was, this is kind of a smack in the face.  Why step on the toes of the fans that appreciated the poetic, dark and beautiful music that made PT in its humble beginnings?  Can you see most kids appreciating Buying A New Soul, Signify, Sleep of No Dreaming, The Sky Moves Sideways?  Some obviously, but not enough.  I battled with the idea that one of my favorite composers intentionally sold out.  However, now that I am older, I can understand a little more. 

As long as Steven Wilson continues to play the music he loves most, I cannot deny him.  One can argue TRTRTS and what it entails.  I personally like it and I am glad Alan Parsons had a hand in its creation.  Drive Home is a bit british pop as one mentioned, but there is something about the simplistic, yet gut-wrenching guitar solo by Guthrie that just keeps me cranking it louder and pushing on the gas pedal a little harder.  

Let us remember that Steven Wilson has mad respect for another man that has been accused of selling out.  His name-Robert Fripp.  I love King Crimson and I am a huge fan.  Now when I see him it is confusing at best.  The last time he opened for SW, I don't think he really played much of anything.  He would pick a few bars and fiddle with knobs for two minutes, pick, fiddle, pick, fiddle.  The last three times I have watched him, he has had his side or back to the audience.  He made his money, now he just wants to do his own thing, love it or leave it.  I think Steven Wilson will follow a similar path.  I do not enjoy Fripp as I once did, but I will always have respect for him as a musician.  I will do the same for SW...no matter what.


-------------
I threw five clocks down on my bed
The chimes danced out on golden threads
And turned to footprints on my wall
Sequined Tears began to fall...


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 27 2013 at 18:29
You can analyze music to death or you can just judge it on whether or not you like what you hear.  For me I enjoy what he has done more than Flower Kings or Spock's Beard, etc.


-------------


Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: July 27 2013 at 20:19
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

You can analyze music to death or you can just judge it on whether or not you like what you hear.  For me I enjoy what he has done more than Flower Kings or Spock's Beard, etc.
 
Pretty much this..not so much analyze the music but trying to analyze the person is well an excercise in futility....this could go on forever.
I listen to all his work because I like it...
 
Trying to decide if he feels he is progressive or not or if someone else is or not that he thinks is or not or who he is influenced by or not...is kinda like this sentence, very batty Wacko.


-------------




Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 27 2013 at 23:36
Robert Fripp a sellout? Boy, some people do have pretty lofty standards. 


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 06:42
Interesting post Sequined Tears ( and watch out for all those bricks that will now fly out past your head from Fripp fanaticsLOL

I actually only started liking PT when they released Deadwing. I guess I'm just a kid at heartSmile


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 06:52
Originally posted by JaySpiral JaySpiral wrote:

Luminol may as well be straight from Fragile by Yes

Nothing similar. Luminol has more chances to be labelled an X-files theme rip-off than from anything of Yes. At least one moment in Luminol sounds really like X-files to me.


-------------
This night wounds time.


Posted By: Second Life Syndrome
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 07:19
I find myself enjoying SW's latest album less and less.  It does just seem like a rip-off, as it's so dang predictable.  You can always think, "Oh, and here comes the mellotron solo"...The music isn't very inventive, original, or even interesting.  I still think the title track is one of the best songs I've heard this year, though.  He did his own thing there.

-------------
theprogmind.com


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 09:22
I'm only concerned with what I hear, sometimes an interview can spice things up a little, sometimes a story about the creation of the music, can do the same.
But in the end what matters is what comes from the speakers.
Regarding SW, he made 2 fine retro albums lately, was at the show, it was great.
But In general, I find PT, and No Man to be more interesting music.


-------------
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours


Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 11:06
It must be pretty damn hard to be a prog rocker these days. Whatever you do, you'll be accused of ripping off the old heroes.
Wilson happens to be a fan of PF, KC and Genesis, among others, so he follows in their footsteps, very much to my joy( and a bunch of other Floyd fangirls and boys).

Now, what is truly new and innovative today, without being unlistenable?


Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 11:21
Originally posted by ole-the-first ole-the-first wrote:


Finale of 'Watchmaker' was definitely inspired by death/doom metal.

There's a riff in there that sounds very much like one from a song on Iron Maiden's "A Matter of Life and Death". 'The Legacy' I think was the song.


Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 11:37
Originally posted by ole-the-first ole-the-first wrote:

Originally posted by JaySpiral JaySpiral wrote:

Luminol may as well be straight from Fragile by Yes

Nothing similar. Luminol has more chances to be labelled an X-files theme rip-off than from anything of Yes. At least one moment in Luminol sounds really like X-files to me.

I'm with Ole-The-First on this one. The fast part(s) of Luminol and not Yes-like at all, while in the slower part there is indeed a passage that reminded me of the album Yesterdays', which is a compilation of the pre-Fragile yes.





Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 11:44
Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

It must be pretty damn hard to be a prog rocker these days. Whatever you do, you'll be accused of ripping off the old heroes.
Wilson happens to be a fan of PF, KC and Genesis, among others, so he follows in their footsteps, very much to my joy( and a bunch of other Floyd fangirls and boys).

Now, what is truly new and innovative today, without being unlistenable?

The answer to your conundrum is improvisation. When you are listening to a good piece of let's say modal jazz or fusion, you are way too busy following the melody lines and harmonies, created by several musicians simultaneously, so you have no time or spare mental capacity to worry about having heard some of the passages somewhere before. 

P.S. It's always been hard to be a good prog rocker, or good anything.  


Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 12:11
Originally posted by Second Life Syndrome Second Life Syndrome wrote:

I find myself enjoying SW's latest album less and less.  It does just seem like a rip-off, as it's so dang predictable.  You can always think, "Oh, and here comes the mellotron solo"...The music isn't very inventive, original, or even interesting.  I still think the title track is one of the best songs I've heard this year, though.  He did his own thing there.

A strange thing: I continue to say that I like Luminol, Holy Drinker and Watchmaker, but somehow I am not listening to these anymore - haven't listened for months. It seems that my brain is duly recognizing these songs as "good" on their objective merits, but my spiritual receptors refuse to tune in properly. 

In the last couple of weeks, apart from listening to my daily staple of contemporary jazz, I have gone through the full spectrum of the musical genres: Brahms, David Garrett, Amiina, Florence & The Machine, lots of Jobim, Cibelle, Black Twig Pickers, Nickel Creek, Silver Convention (say what you will), real early and real coarse U2, Trurl, Bacamarte, McCartney .. can't force myself to drop the stylus on Luminol. Just doesn't sync right with somehwere deep inside. 

Early PT was experimental enough to justify the rudimentary musicianship, so I have no problem with it.

In Absentia through FOABP period was Wilson's, IMO, pinnacle, where the band had come up with excellent sound and great arrangements; and I do believe Nil Recurring and Anesthetize are true masterpieces of pedigree prog.

As for his solo career, I have to agree: Wilson is becoming a more and more anal sound engineer, while the new musical ideas are no longer a part of his offering. His band is beginning to remind me some kind of a (super)human orchestrion contraption. Thumbs down.    






Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 13:13
Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

It must be pretty damn hard to be a prog rocker these days. Whatever you do, you'll be accused of ripping off the old heroes.
Wilson happens to be a fan of PF, KC and Genesis, among others, so he follows in their footsteps, very much to my joy( and a bunch of other Floyd fangirls and boys).

Now, what is truly new and innovative today, without being unlistenable?

You will only find answers to that if you listen to lots of new music. I listen to new stuff all the time and it doesn't have to invent new notes for me to think, "Hmm, I have never heard anything just like this before."


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 20:04
Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:


Now, what is truly new and innovative today, without being unlistenable?

I don't know about the truly part of it, but Everything Everything though you are probably going to complain about the vocals.  But it isn't as if Wilson is the direct descendant of Ronnie James Dio either.  I don't even know what's new in electronic, there must be tons of fresh and innovative music out there.


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 29 2013 at 01:27
I've said it before but trying to work out what is truly new and innovative is a completely pointless exercise. Something always begat something which begat something and so on. Like anything you either enjoy it or you don't. 


Posted By: sukmytoe
Date Posted: July 29 2013 at 01:55
I try to leave the people that make the music out of it these days and just focus in on the music. I made the mistake (to my mind) of delving too deeply into the characters making up old Genesis (Gabriel era) and I came away not liking Tony Banks very much at all - that was, for a while, problematic to me in that it did impact my feelings for the music of the band. I've kind of put that all in a closet and in doing so have been able to continue enjoying what is one of my very favorite bands (Gabriel era Genesis).
I have most of PT's work as well as Steven Wilson's outside of PT and I must say that I do enjoy it. Maybe the thing is that many people who are exceptionally good at what they do - to the level of genius or almost there - are eccentric and are self opinionated. To delve into a musician's character is possibly a mistake in that perceptions about a person can damage ones appreciation of the music that he makes. One only has to look at Geoff Tate where the reception of his new release was mainly ice cold - I believe it to be the better of the two new "Queensryche" albums - but if I took sides or study what in fact happened relating to him and Queensryche I may well also have slated his new release. I stay out of the politics and listen to the music.


Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: July 29 2013 at 08:39
I love the Flower Kings, but in some ways Wilson was correct in his comments (not the part about them contributing to the death of the genre, but about them using all the cliché's of the genre........very true, and a large part of why I love their music).

Wilson IS arrogant and very sure of himself, and this is probably a large part of why he's been able to be successful as a full time musician.  Let's face it, he has probably gained more popularity for his musical endeavors than Roine Stolt can ever hope to attain (though Transatlantic probably gets close........though it's fan base is reserved for the hard core symphonic proggers).

As Dean mentioned earlier, he did explain his comments in later interviews as well as explaining why he now feels comfortable doing "retro prog" stuff.  He never actually apologizes for the comments, but I'm not sure he really needs to.  Stolt has moved on, Wilson has moved on, and it's really just some forum members (some of who probably never liked Wilson's music to begin with) who keep beating this dead horse.

All my opinion of course, and in no way should my comments be taken as assertions of fact.........much like Wilson's comments 7 years ago Wink


Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: July 29 2013 at 12:40
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I've said it before but trying to work out what is truly new and innovative is a completely pointless exercise. Something always begat something which begat something and so on. Like anything you either enjoy it or you don't. 


That's about what I actually meant. I was adressing those who critizise Wilson, thinking he's too retro.

I do listen to all sorts of new music but if I try hard enough I can always find something in it that reminds me of some earlier stuff. Wink


Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: July 29 2013 at 13:02
It's impossible not to channel your influences, the trick is not to just be a copy. IMO The Flower Kings do more than pay homage to "classic" prog, which is ok, but not for me.

Wilson is a god to me...


Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: July 29 2013 at 13:30
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:


Now, what is truly new and innovative today, without being unlistenable?

I don't know about the truly part of it, but Everything Everything though you are probably going to complain about the vocals.  But it isn't as if Wilson is the direct descendant of Ronnie James Dio either.  I don't even know what's new in electronic, there must be tons of fresh and innovative music out there.


I don't think Everything Everything is for me, but thanks for trying. They kind of sounded as if I played something on youtube at the same time spotify was playing. LOL


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 29 2013 at 20:12
Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I've said it before but trying to work out what is truly new and innovative is a completely pointless exercise. Something always begat something which begat something and so on. Like anything you either enjoy it or you don't. 


That's about what I actually meant. I was adressing those who critizise Wilson, thinking he's too retro.

I do listen to all sorts of new music but if I try hard enough I can always find something in it that reminds me of some earlier stuff. Wink

Well, you only have to compare Grace for Drowning (because I haven't heard the full Raven album) with his earlier work with PT, say In Absentia, to see where the criticism could come from.  The latter had a more contemporary flavour even if it necessarily drew elements from older music (and all music has some source material anyway).   GfD is not yet as blatantly 70s SOUNDING as Flower Kings but he's getting there.  It's not that people are calling it retro just because it has some elements from the 70s - the overall sound is slowly drifting towards a 70s-like one.  If it were not for modern recording, some tracks would already sound like they were recorded in the 70s, e.g., Sectarian.  It is very difficult not to mistake it for a lost KC recording unless you are already told that is not the case.  OK, maybe because it sounds like KC rather than Kansas, it sounds more daring, challenging, dissonant, whatever but the source is traced a bit too easily imo.  

It's strange but with PT Wilson's music actually had some sort of distinct identity, enough to be distinguished from Radiohead or U2 or Coldplay.   But his solo work  (again, referring only to Grace...) sounds more like a great sound engineer piecing together his favourite 70s sounds with a sprinkling of contemporary touches here and there at best.   


Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: July 29 2013 at 21:48
Originally posted by IGNEO1991 IGNEO1991 wrote:

(...) has Steven Wilson reached his time - being unable to create ‘new’, fresh material that tries hard to break from existing musical clichés and traditions? 


I sure hope he hasn't, but that's what it seems like. Contrary to progressing, his output since The Incident sure has managed to embrace previous formulae – be it shoegazing (Insurgentes), classic prog (Grace for Drowning, The Raven that Refused to Sing, Time Flies (off The Incident– for Steven is just playing it safe. 

It's obvious that he wants please his fanbase (the kind of people whose taste seem to be dictated by Classic Rock Presents Prog magazine) and he'll surely manage to sell his numerous deluxe editions if he keeps releasing those prog (here, the word prog applies; progressive doesn't) records.

God knows I shouldn't give a damn but hell, I get upset when my favorite artists disappoint me. Not that I'm saying I want him (them) to release what I like; I want the man (people) to release new music! 


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Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 29 2013 at 22:10
Nothing wrong with keeping the old sound. All prog should have Rhodes and hammonds etc. It's the best sound. Why would you want to invent a new sound? What new sound is there to invent anyway? Those instruments were invented before prog was invented anyway. The trick is to have original melodies.

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: July 29 2013 at 22:16
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Why would you want to invent a new sound?

Because some people have had enough of the old sound. The new sounds might be better, too.


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Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 29 2013 at 22:27
Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:


Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Why would you want to invent a new sound?

Because some people have had enough of the old sound. The new sounds might be better, too.


What is the new sound? You're going to be using keys, bass, guitar, drums, wind instruments most likely. You going to use a moog style sound or some crappy synth sound? lol. Playing the instruments you like is not copying.

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: July 29 2013 at 22:46
Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Why would you want to invent a new sound?

Because some people have had enough of the old sound. The new sounds might be better, too.

best music is now






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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.


Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 30 2013 at 01:15
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:


Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:


Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Why would you want to invent a new sound?

Because some people have had enough of the old sound. The new sounds might be better, too.

best music is now


Modern music is mainly crap lol.

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: Second Life Syndrome
Date Posted: July 30 2013 at 05:15
^ Opinion.  

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theprogmind.com


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 30 2013 at 06:52
As far as symphonic progressive rock is concerned, 1970-1977 was a pretty productive period - The Flower Kings drink deeply from the draughts of progressive rock beers that were brewed in this period...thats what makes them so popular with the genre fans today....Steve Wilson's TRWRTS is also heavily influenced by the same period and I think it's more like Genesis circa 71-77 than the Flokis...thats why I love it - Lets have more please....

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 30 2013 at 07:36
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

It's impossible not to channel your influences, the trick is not to just be a copy. IMO The Flower Kings do more than pay homage to "classic" prog, which is ok, but not for me.

Wilson is a god to me...

Not Xbox?


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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 30 2013 at 16:54
Flower kings, porcupine tree, tool, opeth are mainly crap IMO

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: July 30 2013 at 17:05
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Flower kings, porcupine tree, tool, opeth are mainly crap IMO

When you look to those for the standards for modern music, no wonder you think its crap. 



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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: July 30 2013 at 17:07
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Flower kings, porcupine tree, tool, opeth are mainly crap IMO
Wrong thread, brother.

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"Books were only one type of receptacle where we stored a lot of things we were afraid we might forget. There is nothing magical in them at all. The magic is only in what books say, ... ."


Posted By: Second Life Syndrome
Date Posted: July 30 2013 at 19:06
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Flower kings, porcupine tree, tool, opeth are mainly crap IMO

When you look to those for the standards for modern music, no wonder you think its crap. 


Totally agree!


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theprogmind.com


Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 31 2013 at 04:13
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:


Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Flower kings, porcupine tree, tool, opeth are mainly crap IMO

When you look to those for the standards for modern music, no wonder you think its crap. 


Yeah nah. Too many crappy influences in modern prog. The melodies are just not up there

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: July 31 2013 at 12:00
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:


Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Flower kings, porcupine tree, tool, opeth are mainly crap IMO

When you look to those for the standards for modern music, no wonder you think its crap. 


Yeah nah. Too many crappy influences in modern prog. The melodies are just not up there



You guys don't know great music when you hear it.  IMO, of course Wink

On the other hand, I love 70's music of all sorts, and consider it the best music overall (as compared to modern music).  However, that does not mean that there is not great modern music.  I can admit that my prejudices are not facts.


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: July 31 2013 at 12:57
It's impossible to reason with someone who's listening is comprised of music from a span of 5 years.

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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.


Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 31 2013 at 17:02
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

It's impossible to reason with someone who's listening is comprised of music from a span of 5 years.


Make that 15 years. Late 60s - early 80s

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.



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