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Prog ages well, doesn't it?

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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=94193
Printed Date: September 21 2014 at 07:35
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Topic: Prog ages well, doesn't it?
Posted By: Gerinski
Subject: Prog ages well, doesn't it?
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 04:18
When I think of the music styles which have been prevalent during the last 60 or 70 years, nearly all of them sound dated by now (except the most contemporary ones of course).
Swing / Big Band music, Rock & Roll / Rockabilly, Beat, Classic Disco, Punk, New Wave and 80's Synth Pop, Grunge, even the first kinds of Rap... regardless of liking them or not, they all sound dated to me, and I would even dare to say that they sound 'objectively dated'.
Prog on the other side does not, for the most part at least. One may like it or not but I hear Fragile, SEBTP, Trilogy, Quadrophenia, Tubular Bells, DSOTM.... the music does not sound dated to me. Some (or even many) early albums may sound dated because of the instrumentation or production, but in most cases the MUSIC itself does not sound dated.

Do you agree? or is it just a subjective illusion because we like it?

The only other genre which does not sound dated to me either is Jazz - Jazz-Rock / Fusion (maybe also because I like it? Wink). It seems that Jazz has earned some 'eternal' status, as classical music, it may become more or less popular but 'dated' is probably a word that will not be ever applied to it.



Replies:
Posted By: apps79
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 04:35
agree...and just read this statement on the bottom of the page.

http://www.vintageprog.com/index.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.vintageprog.com/index.htm


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Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 04:35
Echoes ages well. Supper's Ready not so much. There will always be works that are the product of its time and hard for future generations to relate to.

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 04:46
I think there are timeless classics in any genre. I'd not say that all Prog has aged well, some of it certainly hasn't aged well at all. I was listening to Airconditioning on the journey to work this morning at that hasn't and I'm sure there are many others (early Yes albums for a start)

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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 04:54
Much depends on the producer I think.

Certian production styles are of an age, even when not limited by the technology of the time. Some Trevor Horn productions from the 80's, for example, although extremely good and way ahead of their time sound very much of their time when you hear them now.

Early Genesis albums had mostly awful production which dated the, If you look at the difference between The Lamb and ATOTT, to me they sound like they could be a decade apart, and that's not taking into account changes in the bands musical style.

As Dean says, there's timeless stuff from every genre and prog is no exception. VDGG and Gentle Giant sound ancient to me, although that's not in any way a criticism.

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 05:20
I don't know what not aging well means. All the albums I used to like I still like. Unless my taste for that album has changed.

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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 05:38
Originally posted by Blacksword

Much depends on the producer I think.
Well that's why I was quick to say in the OP that albums may sound dated because of instrumentation and/or production, but I was referring more to the music itself, the style of composition and arrangement.
As for early Yes albums, I agree that most albums prior to 1970 sound somehow dated (even if I like many of them), the 60's style still had those elements of psychedelia or even some heritage from beat or 60's folk which makes the music sound more dated, but I feel that the composition and arrangement styled matured extremely quickly as from then.


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 05:43
Originally posted by Dean

I think there are timeless classics in any genre. I'd not say that all Prog has aged well, some of it certainly hasn't aged well at all. I was listening to Airconditioning on the journey to work this morning at that hasn't and I'm sure there are many others (early Yes albums for a start)
Something like this ^
 
And also, sometimes what may have sounded pretty dated 15 years ago, may well sound a lot fresher now,
Because todays sound/music is very diffrent from the sound/music from the late 90's. 
Its like fasion, it changes all the time, but at the same time it picks up pieces of history and reinvent them.
 
I think we are moving into a period, where a lot of elements from the late 60's early 70's (prog and more) is inspiring a new generation, so 70's will be hot (for a few years).
 


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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 05:50
Everythying sounds as it should to me.

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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 05:53
[TUBE]HCBnsdjv_AI[/TUBE]

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Posted By: zeqexes
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 06:02
I think compared to some other genres of music, prog had aged fairly well - but if you were to ask a fan of another type of music, eg. disco, if they think the music they like sounds old and 'dated', I doubt they'd say that a type of music they like has aged badly. I think the production of music has a lot to do with whether the music sounds 'old', but I think that the main issue which we're dealing with here is the glasses through which a person looks (or hears).

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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 06:48
Some prog can sound dated but some of that is due to the instrumentation and production. Listen to Cathedral's "Stained Glass Stories" for instance and that sounds terribly dated to me. Mind you, some of Yes' Rabin-era stuff now sounds dated due to the 80s production values.

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Posted By: Neelus
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 06:49
Originally posted by Snow Dog

Everythying sounds as it should to me.

LOL


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Posted By: Neelus
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 06:53
To me this sounds like it was recorded yesterday...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjx0VtIl7Ns" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjx0VtIl7Ns



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Posted By: Knobby
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 08:30
I have always contended that most music is not dated (as the  journos would have).
 
Still, when it comes to prog, if you want to go the dated route, I think you have  to consider whether moog synthesizer use is prevalent in modern music or not.
 
You see, the synth is a VERY predominant instrument. It cuts through all other instruments in a band.
 
In the 80s with electro-dance everyone was using moogs & cheese-synths and even then they were making grunts that prog was dated. So much so nowadays if the fact is that synths have gone into disuse.
 
Not sure - I dont follow the current scene of dungus-"music".


Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 08:43
60s mellotrons are probably dated. 
 
70s quadrophonic sound is probably dated (and was only for people with four ears anyway). 
 
80s drum sounds are probably dated. 
 
90s ...meh, I lost interest twenty years ago - what's the sound of the 90s?


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rotten hound of the burnie crew


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 09:38
There are a number of "sounds" that instantly date some music for me e.g -
 
The Sixties - the plinky plonk guitar sound in guitar solos.
The Eighties - wakka wakka guitar and synth drums
 


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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 09:46
I guess since progressive music was not written as a matter of fashion, but as a listening experience, it will hold it's value no matter how long ago was written, just like jazz or classical music, as somebody mentioned before.


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 09:56
Originally posted by Stool Man

90s ...meh, I lost interest twenty years ago - what's the sound of the 90s?
Louder, distorted guitars, and digital editing.


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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 10:46
Originally posted by Snow Dog

Everythying sounds as it should to me.


Same here.

I don't get what's meant by "dated."  Sure, you could say that some music doesn't hold up well over time because it was just a fad of a particular era and didn't have good quality.  You could say that you had to be around back then to really understand the music in it's cultural/historical context (which is, in a sense, true for all music).  But if something is good, then it doesn't matter when it was recorded.  Moog synthesizers might have been an instrumentation quirk particular to the 70's, but that doesn't matter; what matters is if the Moog sounds good in the context of the song.  The only reason that prog has "aged well" is that progressive rock bands, in general, tend to produce quality music.

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In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 10:53
Originally posted by Knobby


In the 80s with electro-dance everyone was using moogs & cheese-synths and even then they were making grunts that prog was dated. So much so nowadays if the fact is that synths have gone into disuse.
Moogs in 80s electro-dance?
Nah, those were the times of the Fairlight, the Yamaha DX-7, Roland D50 and Korg M1 (which you may call 'cheese-synths' if you want).


Posted By: Knobby
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 11:09
Yes,come to think of it,  you are correct.
Early 90s/late 80s moogs were showing up in the pawnshops.


Posted By: VOTOMS
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 11:14
It's strange how old music that I myself love sounds dated for me, like post-punk, rockabilly, classical, ebm, death metal, grunge, and modern stuff too. 
But even old, progressive music can't be dated. Is like videogames, I dunno where's the fun playing modern games that seems so real. I like to beat the enemies with special moves at the joystick. THIS is funny. Oldschool sci-fi games from the snes makes me feel more alive than xbox kinect. I don't need a videogame to jump and walk as I do everyday of my life.
Keys, Mellotron, Moog, Hammond organs, they have the real futuristic effects, and no pop beat will find it.


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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 11:15
I guess part of the effect I mean is that Prog in the line of the 70's is still pretty much being made today, while most other of the styles I mentioned in the OP are not (unless meant for a retro-movie or things like that).
If you hear now a song in the style of the Beatles' 'She Loves You' you are immediately transported to the beat times (as in the movie Backbeat), if you hear now a song like late 60's psychedelic fuzz-but-folky-tinted song in the style of, say, Iron Butterfly, you are transported to the late 60's, if you hear something in the style of Boney M's Daddy Cool you are transported to the mid 70's, if you hear a song in the style of Soft Cell's 'Tainted Love' you are transported to the early 80's, and so on.
But if you hear a song like modern TFK or Steven Wilson or some Neal Morse or Wobbler etc, if you don't know the music (and neglect the effects of production), you are not sure if that song is from the 70's, 90's or 2010's, the style has not dated so much as to giving you clear indication that you are listening to 'dated' music. Conversely, you may listen to some unknown band from the 70's (without knowing their period) and you may think that they are a contemporary band doing Prog.
I agree that the 80's tended to sound 'clearly 80's' because of the instrumentation (infancy of digital synths) and production style.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 11:19
There is a difference between music that shows its age and music of its age. Certainly instrumentation and production has a huge part to play in that - the tone of a particular guitar/amp combo, the sound of a monophonic analogue synth or electric piano, and my previous example of Airconditioning is an example of that for sure - it's tonality is very 70s sounding, (Sonja's singing hasn't been tainted by the need to sound like Annie Hasalm or Stevie Nicks..). But there is also the style to consider too - and the 70s does have very distinct styles of Prog (it's not all Symph, Canterbury and Krautrock) - we would not have people decrying/praising modern regressive prog if there wasn't a stylisic simularity between that and "golden era" prog.

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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Neelus
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 11:42
Okay...If a classic band (within any genre) produced a "groundbreaking sound" for that genre, and this sound is repeated by many other bands in the future, that band will become "timeless", like genesis, yes and floyd.  In jazz it is coltrane, davis, adderley.  Jazz folks can still listen to coltrane because his formulas are still in use.  In pop it is jackson.  In punk rock it is the clash for instance. In blues its Muddy waters.  Whoever breaks ground, sticks around.

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 12:25
Originally posted by Gerinski

I guess part of the effect I mean is that Prog in the line of the 70's is still pretty much being made today, while most other of the styles I mentioned in the OP are not (unless meant for a retro-movie or things like that).
If you hear now a song in the style of the Beatles' 'She Loves You' you are immediately transported to the beat times (as in the movie Backbeat), if you hear now a song like late 60's psychedelic fuzz-but-folky-tinted song in the style of, say, Iron Butterfly, you are transported to the late 60's, if you hear something in the style of Boney M's Daddy Cool you are transported to the mid 70's, if you hear a song in the style of Soft Cell's 'Tainted Love' you are transported to the early 80's, and so on.
I would call that "music that defined an era" (in the collective consciousness) and by that reasoning Prog would never fit the brief because for most people Prog does not define the 70s, even in grown-up rock (that would be Zeppelin).

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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 12:39
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Gerinski

I guess part of the effect I mean is that Prog in the line of the 70's is still pretty much being made today, while most other of the styles I mentioned in the OP are not (unless meant for a retro-movie or things like that).
If you hear now a song in the style of the Beatles' 'She Loves You' you are immediately transported to the beat times (as in the movie Backbeat), if you hear now a song like late 60's psychedelic fuzz-but-folky-tinted song in the style of, say, Iron Butterfly, you are transported to the late 60's, if you hear something in the style of Boney M's Daddy Cool you are transported to the mid 70's, if you hear a song in the style of Soft Cell's 'Tainted Love' you are transported to the early 80's, and so on.
I would call that "music that defined an era" (in the collective consciousness) and by that reasoning Prog would never fit the brief because for most people Prog does not define the 70s, even in grown-up rock (that would be Zeppelin).
Sure, I agree, and that's an important reason why I think that Prog does not sound as dated as those other styles (even if for the people who know a bit, it did define an era from 1970 to 1974).


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 12:48
Originally posted by Gerinski

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Gerinski

I guess part of the effect I mean is that Prog in the line of the 70's is still pretty much being made today, while most other of the styles I mentioned in the OP are not (unless meant for a retro-movie or things like that).
If you hear now a song in the style of the Beatles' 'She Loves You' you are immediately transported to the beat times (as in the movie Backbeat), if you hear now a song like late 60's psychedelic fuzz-but-folky-tinted song in the style of, say, Iron Butterfly, you are transported to the late 60's, if you hear something in the style of Boney M's Daddy Cool you are transported to the mid 70's, if you hear a song in the style of Soft Cell's 'Tainted Love' you are transported to the early 80's, and so on.
I would call that "music that defined an era" (in the collective consciousness) and by that reasoning Prog would never fit the brief because for most people Prog does not define the 70s, even in grown-up rock (that would be Zeppelin).
Sure, I agree, and that's an important reason why I think that Prog does not sound as dated as those other styles (even if for the people who know a bit, it did define an era from 1970 to 1974).
Needless to say, I disagree with your assertion. Firstly, Prog doesn't define that era (whereas Glam Rock does for most people, including jaded Prog fans) and secondly, music that defines an era does not necessarily sound dated. There is timeless Prog and dated Prog from the same era, not all of it travelled well.

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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Neelus
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 12:49
I guess if it is not as popular, it is not as likely to fall out of fashion.

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Posted By: I-Juca Pirama
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 12:56
As was said by others, I guess we only connect the sound to the era because we know that the "pattern" of music was a carachteristic of that decade.
For example, when I was younger and knew much less about pop music through the ages, I could think some 80s ballad was made on the year before (in the 2000!).


Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 13:03
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Originally posted by Snow Dog

Everythying sounds as it should to me.


Same here.

I don't get what's meant by "dated."  Sure, you could say that some music doesn't hold up well over time because it was just a fad of a particular era and didn't have good quality.  You could say that you had to be around back then to really understand the music in it's cultural/historical context (which is, in a sense, true for all music).  But if something is good, then it doesn't matter when it was recorded.  Moog synthesizers might have been an instrumentation quirk particular to the 70's, but that doesn't matter; what matters is if the Moog sounds good in the context of the song.  The only reason that prog has "aged well" is that progressive rock bands, in general, tend to produce quality music.

Yes, same for me.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I think the same goes for the question if something sounds dated or not.
Prog haters might think that moogs and mellotrons in '70's prog are hopelessly old, but in my ears early Genesis, Yes etc. still sound up to date.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 19:40
I guess I can agree with some bands, and on certain albums. However, I remember when I first heard Wakeman, with the Arthur album, it sounded so dated and odd... of course now after years of listening to it and loving it, I just can't hear what sounded so weird about it at first. More recently, when I just got into Camel, they did sound very old... obviously 70's... needless to say I loved them. Right now I don't seem to hear anything particularly dated on most of the 70's or 60's bands that I listen to regularly, because I'm very used to them, but for someone who isn't into prog they may just as well find them rather dated indeed.


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 20:15
Of course Prog is dated, in the worst way, especially the classic stuff.   And though great, well-recorded albums are indeed timeless [most of Floyd, Yes, Genesis], I've had perfect strangers upon hearing golden age ELP or Genesis or even Steeleye Span look at me with a blend of horror and wonder.   Truly, as if they didn't know real people actually listened to this stuff.   "Yeah it can be a little kitsch sometimes" I say as I I try to cautiously deflect the critique without getting too defensive.   "A little?" comes the response.

You can't win.   You can't persuade, convince, win-over, but I see their perspective.   I remember a Collab here once saying his wife called the prog he was listening to "Elevator music".    Wow, that hurts. 


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 20:17
I think certain albums have a timeless appeal - and that is true for many genres. You can listen to The Band's first two albums and not rightly ascertain their vintage if you were unaware of the release dates. Perhaps because the great albums are so oft imitated. You listen to The Pogues' Rum Sodomy and the Lash or If I Should Fall From Grace With God and they don't sound dated because Flogging Molly and Dropkick Murphys are, for the most part, recycling old Pogues bits.

King Crimson and certain Tull albums have that same appeal.





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Posted By: JaySpiral
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 21:38
No I think it's absolutely subjective.


Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 22:38
I tend to like the groups that sound timeless and hold up to the test of time--there are lot's of fav groups on this site that don't meet that threshold for me---but I'd still take a listen now and then. One is ELP.


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 24 2013 at 23:58
I think some prog has aged well.....some classic rock... and some jazz fusion has also aged well.....it's really subjective as someone said above.
My wife has never called any of the prog I listen to elevator music...she thinks it's too weird.
 


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Et In Arcadia Ego


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: June 26 2013 at 21:24
I think ITCOCK sounds very dated. Soft machine I and a few others after sound very dated. Jade Warrior released and Last Autumns Dream sound very dated. I think Voyage of the Acolyte sounds very dated. I like/love these albums, though, so I don't think stuff sounding dated is just reducible to what one doesn't like. I kind of agree with Gerinsky on balance that Prog tends not to sound dated.


Posted By: stegor
Date Posted: June 26 2013 at 23:39
^ I was just listening to Last Autumn's Dream. I love it, but yes, it sounds very dated. But the next album, Floating World, a mere year or two later, is timeless. What happened? I think Jade Warrior is an excellent case study for the dated concept. It's not just the recording or the music of Last Autumn's Dream that's dated, it's the whole package. The album cover, the photos, the song titles, the instrumentation, the recording, the production, the engineering. Then they switched labels from Vertigo to Island and wham! Floating World and the next few albums are timeless. When I listen to some of those tracks I can't believe they were recorded in the '70's. And they weren't remixed by Steven Wilson.


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 27 2013 at 00:58
The mellotron is a timeless sound.





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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: June 27 2013 at 01:30
Classics do not date from any era

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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 27 2013 at 07:29
Strong musical ideas are resilient enough to withstand being couched in the extant styles of the time they were conceived in. That's why it's only those 'great' songs that contemporary artists attempt to cover from the past.
If 'Yesterday' by the Beatles were rendered by a flat footed Bolivian nostril flute marching band, it might sound texturally awful, but you would still walk away whistling the melody.


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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: June 27 2013 at 11:17
It does, indeed it does.

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Even my cat believes that :-)


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: June 27 2013 at 12:00
Originally posted by progbethyname

The mellotron is a timeless sound.




Agreed.  Have you ever checked out Planet Mellotron?

http://www.planetmellotron.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.planetmellotron.com/

It's an active site devoted to the mighty tron.  My favourite feature is an A-Z list of albums since the 1950's featuring the tron (and it's father the Chamberlin and step-child the Birotron).  What makes this list cool is each album is rated 1 to 5 according to the amount of tron content - and most albums include a written review focusing on tron specifics as well. 


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: June 27 2013 at 12:40
I would agree with the effect of production. DSOTM is an album that has a timeless quality and frankly so does Back in Black. In common is production that is perfect for the music and both defined a sound rather than following trends.

Solsbury Hill works like that for me though some of Gabriel's material is extremely of its time.



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Heater valve kicking on.
Snotty noses being blown.
Griping.
Maybe cookies coming out of the oven???

C is for cookie, and it is good enough for me.



Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: June 27 2013 at 19:12
Originally posted by stegor

^ I was just listening to Last Autumn's Dream. I love it, but yes, it sounds very dated. But the next album, Floating World, a mere year or two later, is timeless. What happened? I think Jade Warrior is an excellent case study for the dated concept. It's not just the recording or the music of Last Autumn's Dream that's dated, it's the whole package. The album cover, the photos, the song titles, the instrumentation, the recording, the production, the engineering. Then they switched labels from Vertigo to Island and wham! Floating World and the next few albums are timeless. When I listen to some of those tracks I can't believe they were recorded in the '70's. And they weren't remixed by Steven Wilson.

I'm in complete agreement. Last Autumn's Dream sounds very dated even to someone like me and you who love it. Havard's sound like old style Beat poetry at times too, though, again I love it. And then there's Floating World, which sounds either ahead of it's time or just plain timeless as you say.


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 27 2013 at 23:48
Originally posted by Marty McFly

It does, indeed it does.




Hey McFly!!! I thought I told ya to never come in here!! Lol. Bifff!

Anyway. You are right. Indeed it does!

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 27 2013 at 23:51
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King


Originally posted by progbethyname

The mellotron is a timeless sound.




Agreed.  Have you ever checked out Planet Mellotron?
http://www.planetmellotron.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.planetmellotron.com/
It's an active site devoted to the mighty tron.  My favourite feature is an A-Z list of albums since the 1950's featuring the tron (and it's father the Chamberlin and step-child the Birotron).  What makes this list cool is each album is rated 1 to 5 according to the amount of tron content - and most albums include a written review focusing on tron specifics as well. 


Ah yes!! I've heard of this but I admit I've been away for
This site for a while. Thanks for the reminder of this clever site to praise our dear tron. The TRON is the face of prog. It really is. For example. What's an IQ album without any TRON??? Oh that would hurt my feelings. Lol

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 28 2013 at 11:23
Originally posted by Chris S

Classics do not date from any era


I like this comment. ;)

Some people don't really fully understand the meaning of 'classic'


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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: June 28 2013 at 12:21
^ Nobody does.



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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: June 28 2013 at 13:03
Originally posted by Gerinski

When I think of the music styles which have been prevalent during the last 60 or 70 years, nearly all of them sound dated by now (except the most contemporary ones of course).
Swing / Big Band music, Rock & Roll / Rockabilly, Beat, Classic Disco, Punk, New Wave and 80's Synth Pop, Grunge, even the first kinds of Rap... regardless of liking them or not, they all sound dated to me, and I would even dare to say that they sound 'objectively dated'.
Prog on the other side does not, for the most part at least. One may like it or not but I hear Fragile, SEBTP, Trilogy, Quadrophenia, Tubular Bells, DSOTM.... the music does not sound dated to me. Some (or even many) early albums may sound dated because of the instrumentation or production, but in most cases the MUSIC itself does not sound dated.

Do you agree? or is it just a subjective illusion because we like it?

The only other genre which does not sound dated to me either is Jazz - Jazz-Rock / Fusion (maybe also because I like it? Wink). It seems that Jazz has earned some 'eternal' status, as classical music, it may become more or less popular but 'dated' is probably a word that will not be ever applied to it.
Objective? Yeah, right. Ermm The problem you've addressed needs a seriously heavy attack, but I don't think I have the energy to muster to attack the problem effectively. So I'll just do the best I can.

1) There is this kind of prog that when I ("I", not the general "you") hear an album, a classic like Selling England ... , I would think and say "That sounds really good, but you can't do it today on a live gig anywhere in my town." Why? Because ...

a) I live in S$%thole, Nevada, a place where the lack of open-mindedness and appreciation for wildly unpopular styles like British folk and classical music preside.
b) People keep looking for new things. Here's one irritating complaint that I hear from my acquaintances every now and then: "Oh, gosh, this music sounds really old", at which point I want to tell them to go to a different room and perform something unspeakable on themselves. Here's another favorite of mine: "What year is it from?" (Like they need that to make an informed opinion.)
c) There is an issue with lyrical content. Do I really have to expand on that one when it comes to prog?

As luck would have it, there is very little amount of prog that I've heard that does not suffer from a single one of those three problems described above.

2) What do you mean by "dated" or "didn't age well"? Something that is unpopular and sounds really lame today? Or something that is just unpopular today? Something that sounds cheesy by our standards? Focus on the language, and only then work your way out into cosmos.

My proposal: to think about music that is songwriting-oriented (something closer to the notion of "lyrical meaning"), not something style-oriented (a lot of musicians today seem to strive to devolve the idea of quality in music ... unbeknownst of that). 


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 28 2013 at 13:37
Well, I know, I dared to mention the word 'objective' when I reckon that anything of this sort is subjective, but I know what I meant, even if it may be hard to convey in words.
If we forget about instrumentation and production and focus on music style, composition, arrangements etc, Prog has remained much more stable. The Flower Kings, Steven Wilson, Beardfish or Transatlantic may make music now which in terms of style is not too different from the 70's Prog. Conversely, if you take a 70's Prog classic piece and re-record it today (say for example, Yes' Long Distance Runaround), if you wouldn't know it it would be really hard to pin down when was it composed, some modern Prog is very similar in style, you might say 'it sounds like 70's Prog' as much as you could say 'it sounds as 00's Prog'. On the other hand with other styles, say Rockabilly or 80's New Wave, even a piece composed today will sound as if it was composed at the time those styles were mainstream.


Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: June 28 2013 at 17:07
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

 

My proposal: to think about music that is songwriting-oriented (something closer to the notion of "lyrical meaning"), not something style-oriented (a lot of musicians today seem to strive to devolve the idea of quality in music ... unbeknownst of that). 


Clap


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In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 29 2013 at 10:10
Originally posted by Gerinski

When I think of the music styles which have been prevalent during the last 60 or 70 years, nearly all of them sound dated by now (except the most contemporary ones of course).
Swing / Big Band music, Rock & Roll / Rockabilly, Beat, Classic Disco, Punk, New Wave and 80's Synth Pop, Grunge, even the first kinds of Rap... regardless of liking them or not, they all sound dated to me, and I would even dare to say that they sound 'objectively dated'.
Prog on the other side does not, for the most part at least. One may like it or not but I hear Fragile, SEBTP, Trilogy, Quadrophenia, Tubular Bells, DSOTM.... the music does not sound dated to me. Some (or even many) early albums may sound dated because of the instrumentation or production, but in most cases the MUSIC itself does not sound dated.

Do you agree? or is it just a subjective illusion because we like it?

The only other genre which does not sound dated to me either is Jazz - Jazz-Rock / Fusion (maybe also because I like it? Wink). It seems that Jazz has earned some 'eternal' status, as classical music, it may become more or less popular but 'dated' is probably a word that will not be ever applied to it.

It is pretty easy to deduce from this that you like the essential classic rock sound (though I don't know how many classic rock bands you like).  Since prog in the 70s shared a lot of the stylistic elements of classic rock, it is not surprising that you would not find prog dated.  Those who are not fond of some typical 70s sounds may not agree. I do find some of Banks or Emerson's synth tones cringe worthy.  Thought Wakeman, Wright and Minnear were much more restrained in that regard.  And since you insist that the music itself in prog is not dated (which would again depend on which specific prog rock bands), I have to ask what exactly makes new wave dated musically speaking.  Is it not 80s production itself that is much more annoying than the actual music?  The better new wave bands like Police or Talking Heads made some excellent music (and some imo with great production too).  There are plenty by the numbers prog rock bands too that people who didn't grow up in the 70s don't really need if they can help it, but probably not the best ones from the 70s.  Which is just like most, if not all, genres of music.  

A thought that occurred to me:  the soaring wall of sound effect and/or the "aaaa" chorus could arguably be a dated 70s musical element.  It can sound really great when done well but it was also overused in that decade and I get this feeling only after listening to mostly essential stuff.  Wonder how it would have felt if I had had to sit through it all and sift the good from the bad.  I mean, not every emotion needs to sound epic and bombastic.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 29 2013 at 15:35
Originally posted by psarros

agree...and just read this statement on the bottom of the page.

http://www.vintageprog.com/index.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.vintageprog.com/index.htm
 
ALL musical, or artistic scenes, that "age well" will be remembered in one way or another.
 
But I can tell you that almost (Dean will know a name or two I bet!) no one remembers the most famous singer (or seller for these days), on the year 1913), that had all the shows he could possibly want!
 
In the end, there is one thing that is important ... that you are not seeing and the comment that is quoted is not seeing ... and is something that you can EASILY see, and check for yourself in the history of all the arts ... there is a sentiment that carries through the time and the place, that is a part of the art ... and it is VISIBLE.
 
Progressive is an extension of the 1960's, and in my book, I like to say that it was when the dope was taken out some, we found out that we had some arts to work with ... and the immediate combination of all arts ... helped make it an important time and place!
 
Without that ... it all becomes just another band out there in the miriad of bands! Or arts!
 
The hardest part of all, for folks here, is for them to see that KC's early work, ELP, Genesis, and anyone else, and then realize ... oh my gawd ... film is also there ... painting is also there ... the literature is also there and has been for 10 years already ... but too many folks here are centered on the "top ten" mentality and feel offended when told that the rest of the arts IS what makes these things work ... otherwise, you are just another nobody that will not be remembered ....
 
Just look at the history of the arts ... and then look a bit away from your "progressive" monster, and see him as a part of the universe that he tried to create for us! We were ALL there, too ... and it's like saying those folks can be progressive, and we can't ... and that is not only false, it is also insensitive and uneducated! And many of the folks in this board also know and understand ... that a part of that "progressive'ness" is IN THEM ... not just a bunch of folks that we hand pick because of a note, or scale, or jagged riff, or some other silly, bizarre and idiotic idea like an instrument that "prog" uses, that otheres don't!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 29 2013 at 15:43
Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by Chris S

Classics do not date from any era


I like this comment. ;)

Some people don't really fully understand the meaning of 'classic'
 
Sadly, because it is associated with radio hits ... most of which have absolutely nothing on "progressive" or "prog"!
 
But it's hard to tell folks, even in this board, that prog ages well, and every composer for the past 600 years, was "progressive" from what was available before ... and we will not ever want to study that ... because it would be STUDYING ... and that's not something that a "fan" does ...
 
I guess Beethoven ages well ... let me put on ELO and find out! ... or see if Amadeus Rocks Me still! Damn ... dancing ashes ... can you believe it?


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: humor4u1959
Date Posted: June 30 2013 at 23:23
Some prog still sounds "classic" as others have said. Some sounds so ridiculous it makes me laugh. And these are some songs even by my favorites. So, it depends on the piece, I suppose.

I think 'Supper's Ready' sounds very dated. Rubber Soul by the Beatles sounds more relevant and less dated than a lot of progressive rock from the 1970's, at least to me.


Posted By: Investinmolden
Date Posted: July 02 2013 at 13:23
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by Gerinski

When I think of the music styles which have been prevalent during the last 60 or 70 years, nearly all of them sound dated by now (except the most contemporary ones of course).
Swing / Big Band music, Rock & Roll / Rockabilly, Beat, Classic Disco, Punk, New Wave and 80's Synth Pop, Grunge, even the first kinds of Rap... regardless of liking them or not, they all sound dated to me, and I would even dare to say that they sound 'objectively dated'.
Prog on the other side does not, for the most part at least. One may like it or not but I hear Fragile, SEBTP, Trilogy, Quadrophenia, Tubular Bells, DSOTM.... the music does not sound dated to me. Some (or even many) early albums may sound dated because of the instrumentation or production, but in most cases the MUSIC itself does not sound dated.

Do you agree? or is it just a subjective illusion because we like it?

The only other genre which does not sound dated to me either is Jazz - Jazz-Rock / Fusion (maybe also because I like it? Wink). It seems that Jazz has earned some 'eternal' status, as classical music, it may become more or less popular but 'dated' is probably a word that will not be ever applied to it.
Objective? Yeah, right. Ermm The problem you've addressed needs a seriously heavy attack, but I don't think I have the energy to muster to attack the problem effectively. So I'll just do the best I can.

1) There is this kind of prog that when I ("I", not the general "you") hear an album, a classic like Selling England ... , I would think and say "That sounds really good, but you can't do it today on a live gig anywhere in my town." Why? Because ...

a) I live in S$%thole, Nevada, a place where the lack of open-mindedness and appreciation for wildly unpopular styles like British folk and classical music preside.
b) People keep looking for new things. Here's one irritating complaint that I hear from my acquaintances every now and then: "Oh, gosh, this music sounds really old", at which point I want to tell them to go to a different room and perform something unspeakable on themselves. Here's another favorite of mine: "What year is it from?" (Like they need that to make an informed opinion.)
c) There is an issue with lyrical content. Do I really have to expand on that one when it comes to prog?

As luck would have it, there is very little amount of prog that I've heard that does not suffer from a single one of those three problems described above.

2) What do you mean by "dated" or "didn't age well"? Something that is unpopular and sounds really lame today? Or something that is just unpopular today? Something that sounds cheesy by our standards? Focus on the language, and only then work your way out into cosmos.

My proposal: to think about music that is songwriting-oriented (something closer to the notion of "lyrical meaning"), not something style-oriented (a lot of musicians today seem to strive to devolve the idea of quality in music ... unbeknownst of that). 

That's great opinion :) I think that you can't be objective talking about art - it's itself very subjective; very personal. But afterall Genesis, ELP, Pink Floyd and whatever prog band from the best selling ones you can find, made a professional deal with large record labels and reamined in rock music genre; this genre can be considered as popular music - at least by record labels boards and producers, because they want to maximize the profit. Even at "our classic" prog rock.
Maybe nowdays a "global popular music village" is same as your hometown and dominated by the same public (people in my hometown are the same for sure :). So for the producers "classic" prog music is aging and we won't hear a lot of it in mainstream medias. Which can make us think that something different form mainstream is aged. That's why it's woth to keep to your personal vision of music :)


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http://investinmolden.cba.pl/

https://soundcloud.com/investinmolden-1

https://www.facebook.com/Investinmolden


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: July 02 2013 at 23:03
^ wow. Three well thought out, lucid answers. I think all (3) of you make very good points pertaining to the 'age' relevancy in prog and in art for that matter.

My feeling is this. I live in sh*tsville as well when it comes to the open mindedness towards prog. I have given up years ago on that matter. I cannot objectify the art and relevancy behind prog music in general. My friends, acquaintances and even family members make fun of me for what they usually call 'eccentric tastes in music or old man music.' I mean how ridiculous is that!
Anyway. I gave up on people in my life with regards to expressing my love for progressive music. Actually, the other day I was in the car with my brother and his soon to be wife, so I took a stab at filling their ears with some beautiful prog.
I put on IQ's ZERO HOUR. It's a pretty straight forward, yet wonderfully crafted song that even has some brass instruments in it. Why do they say? "well...this sucks!" then my brother put his I pod on and played some country music. Long story short, I lost my sh*t on both of them not because they did not like it, but because of a very stupid comment.
I no longer have a brother. Lol. Just kidding.
Anyway. Prog is either a hit or a big miss with most people, so I have to say that as far as the aging matter is concerned it all depends on the individual. Personally I feel it ages incrediblely well, especially compared with a lot of the new music that is pumped out year after year. I slammed on 'US AND THEM' by pink Floyd and GRENDEL by Marillion and it still as fresh and beautiful as the day I first heard it many years ago.

So what am I to make of all this? Can I say that my music tastes are dated? I think not because what the hell should I compare it to, other than 21st century prog?

Now given my environment by how others have reacted to my music tastes I can say prog is still not old because people, quite simply, don't understand it. That's all.   

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 03 2013 at 06:53
Originally posted by ExittheLemming

flat footed Bolivian nostril flute marching band
 
I've got their album, it's really good!


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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: July 03 2013 at 07:37
^ Yeah, but is it Prog? Wink

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http://s312.photobucket.com/user/exitthelemming/media/SignaturePic2.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: July 03 2013 at 16:42
"Prog ages well, doesn't it?"
 
A bloody sight better than me.


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I have many faults. Being wrong is not one of them.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 03 2013 at 16:54


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 03 2013 at 18:44
 ^ good god he looks like something from Pirates of the Caribbean, and not as attractive



Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: July 03 2013 at 19:32
Those were the days, before the interweb, when we didn't know the looks of our favorite bands.
Somehow I think Yes wouldn' t have achieved the same following as, say Pink Floyd if the rules were the same as today, when you have to have a. pretty face.
Gilmour vs Howe - anybody?  LOL 


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 03 2013 at 19:33
Originally posted by Dean


Well, prog has aged well, Steve on the other hand...Wink

"I think you're using the wrong conditioner on your hair" - Nigel Tufnel


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: July 03 2013 at 19:37
It looks like Howe and Keith Richards should have a battle of who looks the oldest. Lol
Man, I have a catcher's mit that looks younger. Wow.
Age is a bitch and we will all experience it hard someday except with regards to prog. It's timeless!!

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 03 2013 at 20:46
Regarding "Old Steve Howe"...

*sigh* we all grow old, don't we?  

The face in the water looks up,

And she shakes her head as if to say

That it's the last time you'll look like today.





Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: July 03 2013 at 21:44
Prog makes me feel young. When I get goosebumps from listening to my proggy favourites at that moment I'm ageless.

Oh the power of prog! The power of great music on the human body for that matter.
RUSH explain it very well with TIME STAND STILL.



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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: July 03 2013 at 22:55
I wonder sometimes if a timeless feeling is all that great (it kind of is, but I'm playing Devil's advocate here). What I mean is listening to something many years later you lose track of how truly innovative something was at the time it came out. Hot Rats was not the first Jazz Rock album, but it was awfully close. I somehow lose that feeling that a breakthrough has occurred with some things that have that sense of timelessness to them. ITCOCK seems very dated to me, but maybe that's helped it's recognition so many years later.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 04 2013 at 15:07
Originally posted by chopper

Originally posted by ExittheLemming

flat footed Bolivian nostril flute marching band
 
I've got their album, it's really good!
 
That one fart band with Ron Geesin and Roger Waters was fun also! ... and it was musical, too! Rather progressive sound wise since the putting it together was so clever and the sequences were so different, with so many jagged sounds kinda on top of each other.
 
Awesomely progressive!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: July 08 2013 at 05:11
I think the music ages well even if the band members do not. It tends to age along with its listeners. When i went to the Yes CONCERT LAST YEAR, the auditorium was full of oldies like me but we got on well as a result.




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Posted By: CKnoxW
Date Posted: August 06 2013 at 13:04
Just about anything with a basic Moog lead sounds dated. I'm looking at you, Rick Wakeman


Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: August 06 2013 at 17:01
Prog is usually full of great melody which progresses through the ages

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 00:18
Prog doesn't even have a receding hair line yet. :)

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 13 2013 at 12:44
Hi,
 
I was thinking that most music progressive anything ages ... about as well as you and I and all of us do!
 
We just don't like to admit it!
 
 


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: August 13 2013 at 20:33
I Picture, if prog music were an actual person, it would be a man dressed like an immortal Greek God with a beard that would put Gandolf to shame. Just a thought. :)

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: August 13 2013 at 22:15
Yes were not a bad looking group of guys when they were young--they haven't aged well---especially Howe---made me give up vegetarianism. LOL


Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: August 14 2013 at 21:53
Originally posted by cstack3

Regarding "Old Steve Howe"...

*sigh* we all grow old, don't we?  

The face in the water looks up,

And she shakes her head as if to say

That it's the last time you'll look like today.



Love the whole song "Ripples" from TOTT (Genesis).  Truer words were never spoken (as I compare my 54 year-old face & body to earlier versions...)


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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: August 14 2013 at 22:21
It's gonna happen to us all weather we like it or not, but you can control some things to age gracefully just like prog has and does. :)

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: progrockdeepcuts
Date Posted: August 15 2013 at 00:08
Absolutely!


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: August 17 2013 at 10:44
Prog is aging better than Chuck Norris right now.

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: Xonty
Date Posted: August 29 2013 at 12:48
Some things sound quite dated in prog. Marillion with the synthesisers for example, or electronic stuff like Tangerine Dream when as a kid I hear all kinds of electronic music out there today. I still listen to those sorts of bands though, and they're not as outdated as other bands/genres.


Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: August 30 2013 at 02:38
Yes and no about Tangerine Dream. A year ago I played Phaedra for a flatmate and he had no idea it was as old as the mid-1970s. Their digital phase from Force Majeure up to the mid-1980s, though, there's no mistaking for the product of any other time.

That said I've also encountered quite a few fans of electronic music who find TD too technologically primitive, or too closely rooted in Krautrock and modern classical to be "real" electronic music.


Posted By: matty3198
Date Posted: October 19 2013 at 19:00
No not really, in every genre there is music that is timeless, and music that has dated, prog is no exception,   t for every band that has stood the test of time there is another that sounds bland and derivative.





Posted By: Stromboil
Date Posted: October 19 2013 at 19:38
I kinda feel like a lot of 70s music is pretty timeless. Might have something to do with the production. I personally at least feel that a lot of 80's music suffers from the use of early digital technology that really doesn't sound good today. 


Posted By: proggman
Date Posted: October 19 2013 at 21:35
I don't really care if the music sound dated as long as I like it.


Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: October 20 2013 at 08:11
Originally posted by matty3198

No not really, in every genre there is music that is timeless, and music that has dated, prog is no exception,   t for every band that has stood the test of time there is another that sounds bland and derivative.


This is true.  There are great classics that stood the tests of time, and other pieces that few people remember now.  Of course, what "ages well" and what not is pretty much a subjective notion; one man's classic is another man's howler.

But I think that there is a good number of progressive rock pieces that have aged very well and continue to inspire young musicians into doing good music.



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... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."



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