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How come Wakeman did not have a Modular Moog

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Printed Date: August 29 2014 at 01:15
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Topic: How come Wakeman did not have a Modular Moog
Posted By: Gerinski
Subject: How come Wakeman did not have a Modular Moog
Date Posted: July 08 2013 at 10:41
Just curiosity in case anyone has answers. Rick Wakeman was for many years hailed as one of the world's top keyboard wizards, for sure at his heyday in the first half of the 70's he did not lack financial means (even if he went rather bad at some point afterwards) or potential for sponsorship.
And yet, he seems to have never been attracted to the big modular synths which in principle were the dream of any keyboard freak in the early 70's. No Modular Moog, no ARP 2500 or 2600, no modular PPG... not even a humble EMS Synthi A.
The relatively limited Minimoog seems to have been enough for his synth thirst until the late 70's when he embraced more advanced instruments such as the RMI Keyboard Computer (which in any case was not really a synth but a Rompler). Being considered as one of the world's top rock keyboardists and given his rather megalomaniac traits at the time, it's surprising that he did not feel like getting all those hi-tech gadgets. Pictures of keyboardists showing all their gear off were a sign of prestige, see Keith Emerson, Jean-Michel Jarre, Klaus Schulze of Wakeman himself in the inlay pic of The Six Wives Of Henry VIII.

Anybody has ever heard any comments as to how did that come?






Replies:
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 08 2013 at 14:04
Personally I never really was all that interested in what specific model of instrument/keyboard anyone played....Hammond organ, moog, whatever.....Gibson guitar, Fender, whatever.....
I always assumed that the Moog was named after someone but I never even bothered to look up the person until I came across a reference to them in a crossword puzzle a while back.
Shows my ignorance about that aspect of prog rock.
LOL


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Et In Arcadia Ego


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 08 2013 at 14:21
Rick Wakeman is a great keyboard player, but I'm not sure he's interested in the manipulation of electronic sounds. I always had the feeling he's in a "classical" point of view concerning his instrument.

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Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: July 08 2013 at 14:51
I've read somewhere that it's a headache to figure out how to play Modular Moog, how to reproduce the sounds you once played.
Keith Emerson got the idea fast (without any "user manual") and that's why he used this monster. 

Probably Rick, like many other keyboardists, did not have enough patience for this instrument. Add here the price, size and the complexity of its tuning and service. Definitely it's not an instrument for the majority of travelling bands.


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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 08 2013 at 15:54
I suspect that several factors are involved:
 
1. As a trained pianist (more so than Emerson) Wakeman prefered polyphonic instruments [there is an amusing anecdote that when he forst played a Moog he thought it was broken because it was monophonic]
2. Wakeman was more interested in instruments that you put on stage and rely on night after night - the Modular was too complex for that. [Great for studio work, not so great on stage].
3. Wakeman was a jobbing keyboard player in the early 70s and could not afford to buy a Modular 'C' series [his first Moog was a secondhand Minimoog]
 
...of course all those are pure speculation and guess work, as are everyone elses ideas.


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 08 2013 at 16:17
In my opinion, Emerson was a synthesist, fascinated with creating new synth textures and timbres and then integrating them into ELP's sound.  Wakeman was foremost a player, interested in using the available palette of sounds.  The Minimoog was perfect for him as it was the simplified cousin of the modular with the most popular signal paths hard wired inside.  I remember Wakeman causing an outrage in the music press (who already hated prog for being "overblown and pretentious") for stacking several Minimoogs on top of his other keyboards.  I believe he did that to have 3 unique solo synth sounds ready for him without having to mess with twiddling knobs between songs.  In the photo below, he has 3 Minimoogs in his rig:



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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 08 2013 at 19:03
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

I believe he did that to have 3 unique solo synth sounds ready for him without having to mess with twiddling knobs between songs.


Exactamundo. When Wakeman would finalize a proper sound he could use for his leads, he taped the knobs "into place" and went and acquired another MiniMoog (that was recounted in Keyboard Magazine ages ago). I see at least three in that pic.

As for a large Modular, Rick wasn't the kind of guy to lug around a big piece of gear like that. Emerson had his piano, organ, clav, and the Modular Moog in a "|_|" formation. Rick preferred his 10+ models in a circular fashion and keep them accessible for particular songs throughout the concert.

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Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: July 08 2013 at 19:50
Rick actually played one on the Strawbs album From The Witchwood (most likely the studio owned it). The same with Tony Kaye on The Yes Album. They call the modular Moog the "big Moog" for a reason: it's a keyboard attached to a circuit-board the size of a house. It wasn't cheap either. The MiniMoog was both more affordable and easier to carry around for keyboardists who wanted a synth in the early 1970s (the EMS synths were mainly used for sounds and effects rather than melodies or rhythms). 


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 00:23
Originally posted by verslibre


As for a large Modular, Rick wasn't the kind of guy to lug around a big piece of gear like that. Emerson had his piano, organ, clav, and the Modular Moog in a "|_|" formation. Rick preferred his 10+ models in a circular fashion and keep them accessible for particular songs throughout the concert.

I've read the funny thing about Emo's modular is Bob Moog built him a crude analog "preset box" which allowed him to change sounds without unplugging and replugging the wires and recalibrating the knobs.  Once he had this, the giant modular patch bay (and oscilloscope wave monitor) was really just for show...but what a show!


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 01:36
Also Emerson never liked the Mellotron while Wakeman used it to great affect on Six Wives and Fragile. Different strokes for different folks. 


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 08:32
Yeah, that's where Emo really stands out, his aversion to the 'Tron. It makes sense considering his percussive style. Wakeman and Banks and everyone else played legato lines waaay more often than Keith did.

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Posted By: Josef_K
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 05:12
As some people have said already, Wakeman liked to have up to 4 Minimoogs on stage at the same time (and 2-3 Mellotrons) because he didn't want to have to tweak the knobs to change sounds in the middle of a song. I guess he couldn't possibly tour with multiple Moog modulars, so he rather worked with Minimoogs to get the flexibility they offered as compared to an arguably better sound, but just ONE.

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Leave the past to burn,
At least that's been his own

- Peter Hammill


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 10:37
Originally posted by verslibre

Yeah, that's where Emo really stands out, his aversion to the 'Tron. It makes sense considering his percussive style. Wakeman and Banks and everyone else played legato lines waaay more often than Keith did.

Ya that's an important point.  Banks especially would build compositions with sustained mellotron chords with vocals/solos on top where Emo created a more aggressive attack based on staccato chord stabs and flying riffs/scalar runs.  I love 'em both Wink 


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 12:56
Originally posted by CPicard

Rick Wakeman is a great keyboard player, but I'm not sure he's interested in the manipulation of electronic sounds. I always had the feeling he's in a "classical" point of view concerning his instrument.

Agreed.

He left his experimenting at home and stuck to the music and its theory, though one should state that he played quite freely off that!


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www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 12 2013 at 00:07
With the absolutely wonderful lead sounds Wakeman created on his minimoogs, why should he bother with a modular unit ???  Even though you can generally tell when someone's using a minimoog, Rick's main lead tone is THE perfect sound - so rich and full  - especially something like the track 'Merlin', or even throughout 'Yessongs'.  I curse that darn polymoog he used as it sounded rather cheezy....... 


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 12 2013 at 06:45
Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 12 2013 at 18:28
No minimoogs or mellotrons here, but Rick's 'Silent Nights' album is one of my fave x-over Prog album from the 80's - it's a generally under-appreciated album - it does sound a little tacky on the surface, but I find it has very strong prog substance and it's neatly arranged, and he's got a wonderful band together for the project.  Just thought I'd mention that,
                                now  Back to topic


Posted By: rodak
Date Posted: July 23 2013 at 14:53
Seems I read somewhere that Emerson's modular was patched, at least most of the time, to a configuration VERY similar to what the Mini is hardwired for.  It's just a classic 2 or 3 VCOs set to sawtooth wave, going through the 4-pole LPF, modulated by the envelope generator (triggered by the keyboard), then into the VCA.

I think Emerson had some "preset" modules but I don't know how flexible or successful they were


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 24 2013 at 00:46
Originally posted by verslibre

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


Posted By: DiamondDog
Date Posted: July 24 2013 at 13:48
Rick was/is a great player, but his strength was always playing on top of a band, where the band (like Yes) provided the body of the music. Rick gave the music colour, texture, alternative sound and counterpoint with all the various keyboards and often one-handed solos that sparkled and brought life to the music. He was never a player who attempted to carry the solid centre of the band, that was the strength (and perhaps weakness) of Ritchie, and to an extent, Emerson. 


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 24 2013 at 15:22
Originally posted by richardh


Originally posted by verslibre

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


I think he wanted to do it. The albums apparently didn't sell that well. What the $#%&@ is wrong with people?!

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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 24 2013 at 15:46
Originally posted by verslibre

Originally posted by richardh


Originally posted by verslibre

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


I think he wanted to do it. The albums apparently didn't sell that well. What the $#%&@ is wrong with people?!

I'm guessing that 'symphonic' sells better when it comes to Rick's music. The Retro albums were actually not retro in style but rather in the use of old instruments to create new music. People really want the 'old' style ... and also perhaps less Ashley HoltWink


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 24 2013 at 15:54
Originally posted by richardh

Originally posted by verslibre

Originally posted by richardh


Originally posted by verslibre

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


I think he wanted to do it. The albums apparently didn't sell that well. What the $#%&@ is wrong with people?!

I'm guessing that 'symphonic' sells better when it comes to Rick's music. The Retro albums were actually not retro in style but rather in the use of old instruments to create new music. People really want the 'old' style ... and also perhaps less Ashley HoltWink

Frank Zappa had Don Pardo, Alice Cooper had Vincent Price, I'm afraid Ashley Holt will be forever connected with Rick Wakeman  LOL


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Rando
Date Posted: July 24 2013 at 19:30
Originally posted by Gerinski

Just curiosity in case anyone has answers. Rick Wakeman was for many years hailed as one of the world's top keyboard wizards, for sure at his heyday in the first half of the 70's he did not lack financial means (even if he went rather bad at some point afterwards) or potential for sponsorship.
And yet, he seems to have never been attracted to the big modular synths which in principle were the dream of any keyboard freak in the early 70's. No Modular Moog, no ARP 2500 or 2600, no modular PPG... not even a humble EMS Synthi A.


Anybody has ever heard any comments as to how did that come?





I'd say he did pretty darn good without one. Similarly Tony Banks basically only used one synth, ARP Pro-Soloist. (Added the ARP 2600 in the studio).
At least it would have been visually stunning on stage if Wakeman had added a modular to his mega-count of keyboards.

Smile


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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: July 24 2013 at 21:16
Originally posted by richardh


Originally posted by verslibre

Originally posted by richardh


Originally posted by verslibre

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


I think he wanted to do it. The albums apparently didn't sell that well. What the $#%&@ is wrong with people?!

I'm guessing that 'symphonic' sells better when it comes to Rick's music. The Retro albums were actually not retro in style but rather in the use of old instruments to create new music. People really want the 'old' style ... and also perhaps less Ashley HoltWink


Yeah, I was surprised by how fresh and modern (or at least not-70's) those Retro albums sounded. I would be perfectly happy if Wakeman only used those 70's keyboards from now on (well, some piano and churc organ wouldn't hurt either, but those ones are still much older technology).


Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: August 01 2013 at 23:50
One of the few (the only one?) to use the Mander Pipe Organ in a prog-band setting (that is the instrument used for the organ solo on the title of 'Close to the Edge').  That should offset any non-use of other Moog instruments (besides the Mini-Moog), eh?

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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 02 2013 at 00:06
Originally posted by prog4evr

One of the few (the only one?) to use the Mander Pipe Organ in a prog-band setting (that is the instrument used for the organ solo on the title of 'Close to the Edge').  That should offset any non-use of other Moog instruments (besides the Mini-Moog), eh?
I've always assumed the Pipe Organ in CTTE was the 'real deal' (as in a proper Cathedral organ).  He did have some sort of Portative organ he used on 'The Remembering' and 'Criminal Record' - perhaps that was the Mander.....? Still, he has the most incredible Mini-Moog sounds from anyone in the bizz Big smile


Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: August 02 2013 at 00:22
Originally posted by Tom Ozric

Originally posted by prog4evr

One of the few (the only one?) to use the Mander Pipe Organ in a prog-band setting (that is the instrument used for the organ solo on the title of 'Close to the Edge').  That should offset any non-use of other Moog instruments (besides the Mini-Moog), eh?
I've always assumed the Pipe Organ in CTTE was the 'real deal' (as in a proper Cathedral organ).  He did have some sort of Portative organ he used on 'The Remembering' and 'Criminal Record' - perhaps that was the Mander.....? Still, he has the most incredible Mini-Moog sounds from anyone in the bizz Big smile
The organ used in 'Criminal Record' (and "Parallels" and "Awaken" on 'Going For The One' [GFTO]) was the real-deal:  a Swiss church-organ (as noted on the albums' program notes).  Not so familiar with 'The Remembering,' but Wakeman played the Mander on "Close to the Edge" when I saw them live at the Forum in LA during the GFTO tour in September 1977...


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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 02 2013 at 03:35
He used a real church pipe organ for CTTE, GFTO and Criminal Record, and a portable Mander in the GFTO tour.


Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: August 02 2013 at 03:47
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

In my opinion, Emerson was a synthesist, fascinated with creating new synth textures and timbres and then integrating them into ELP's sound.  Wakeman was foremost a player, interested in using the available palette of sounds.  The Minimoog was perfect for him as it was the simplified cousin of the modular with the most popular signal paths hard wired inside.  I remember Wakeman causing an outrage in the music press (who already hated prog for being "overblown and pretentious") for stacking several Minimoogs on top of his other keyboards.  I believe he did that to have 3 unique solo synth sounds ready for him without having to mess with twiddling knobs between songs.  In the photo below, he has 3 Minimoogs in his rig:


Love that photo and theres even a Curry Vindaloo hidden underneath the keyboards!


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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 02 2013 at 04:36
Rick is a freaking GOD, even if he did torch one of his M400's (Angry).............


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: August 02 2013 at 05:24
Heh if you guys are into Manders, then this is the go-to place:  http://mander-organs-forum.invisionzone.com/" rel="nofollow - http://mander-organs-forum.invisionzone.com/
Yep, it's a site entirely devoted to Mander organsLOL



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Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: August 02 2013 at 15:11
Originally posted by Gerinski

He used a real church pipe organ for CTTE, GFTO and Criminal Record, and a portable Mander in the GFTO tour.
Thank you for that clarification.  I had always thought Wakeman had used the Mander since CTTE, not just on the GFTO tour...


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Posted By: Shutoku
Date Posted: August 03 2013 at 01:50
Modular moogs were never really intended for live use, and I believe the tuning stability was even worse than the mini. I've read Emerson admit that a big part of the modular being carried around was for show, and he too was doing a fair amount of minimoog work. 

The number of minimoogs Wakeman used was for two reasons. 
1. to facillitate smoothly and quickly going from one sound to another. If it is a challenge to quickly change sounds on a mini, it is much more so on a modular.  
2. he did a fair amount of harmony with 2 minimoogs.

Even now his rig usually includes a minimoog, sometimes two (though the second one is usually a minimoog voyager but if there's only 1, it is the model D) Though I think his still massive rigs are at least in part, theatre, as surrounding himself with keyboards is almost as much a part of his image as the capes.

I have pretty much everything he did for solo work and of course with Yes, and I have to say, of his solo work, I really prefer up to Criminal Record much more than anything after, and a great deal of this has to do with the sound choices once he started using more digital stuff. Plus I just plain love the sound of a real hammond, the mellotron, and moog synths. 
I do like the new-agey piano stuff though, and the Wakeman with Wakeman stuff is great!

Recently I've been putting together a performance of 6 wives and King Arthur, and there is a lot more variety in synth patches than one might think when you really sit down and try to reproduce them. Interesting though, almost no use of the wheels (thankfully!!! I won'y have an orchestra with me and so I need both hands on the keys!), and seldom is one VCO used as an LFO. (I don't have a minimoog, so I am using a Korg Mono/poly in it's place)



Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 03 2013 at 22:41
Originally posted by Shutoku


Modular moogs were never really intended for live use, and I believe the tuning stability was even worse than the mini. <span style="line-height: 1.2;">I've read Emerson admit that a big part of the modular being carried around was for show, and he too was doing a fair amount of minimoog work. </span>
The number of minimoogs Wakeman used was for two reasons. 
1. to facillitate smoothly and quickly going from one sound to another. If it is a challenge to quickly change sounds on a mini, it is much more so on a modular.  
2. he did a fair amount of harmony with 2 minimoogs.
Even now his rig usually includes a minimoog, sometimes two (though the second one is usually a minimoog voyager but if there's only 1, it is the model D) Though I think his still massive rigs are at least in part, theatre, as surrounding himself with keyboards is almost as much a part of his image as the capes.
I have pretty much everything he did for solo work and of course with Yes, and I have to say, of his solo work, I really prefer up to Criminal Record much more than anything after, and a great deal of this has to do with the sound choices once he started using more digital stuff. Plus I just plain love the sound of a real hammond, the mellotron, and moog synths. 
I do like the new-agey piano stuff though, and the Wakeman with Wakeman stuff is great!
Recently I've been putting together a performance of 6 wives and King Arthur, and there is a lot more variety in synth patches than one might think when you really sit down and try to reproduce them. Interesting though, almost no use of the wheels (thankfully!!! I won'y have an orchestra with me and so I need both hands on the keys!), and seldom is one VCO used as an LFO. (I don't have a minimoog, so I am using a Korg Mono/poly in it's place)



¿Did you hear the Retro albums Wakeman put out at the late 00's? They were made only with 70's keyboards, you might just as well like them.


Posted By: Shutoku
Date Posted: August 06 2013 at 03:33
I have both retro albums. I like most of them but there are parts I don't care for as much...not so much because of the sounds but the music itself.
I mean at the end of the day, a great song on a beat up piano is still a great song, and a bad song played on minimoogs and mellotrons is still a bad song. I tend to prefer the analog synths and hammond and mellotron over the digital synth sounds, but that doesn't mean I'll like something just because it uses vintage gear, if the music itself doesn't appeal to me.
Retro 1 especially is one I like more than many of his more recent ones though.

tbh though, he has such a staggering number of albums out, he may have some gems I've not given a proper listen to.




Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 06 2013 at 05:21
Again, I interrupt this program to bring to you this message - 'Silent Nights' is a GREAT album from this keyboard maestro.


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: August 06 2013 at 06:02
I know there was no room to put his beer so he just said f**k it. Emerson couldn't hold a candle to him. I don't think they ever really met.. I would have to agree that Wakeman just couldn't have been bothered. Wakeman even though he didn't finish was trained at The Royal College of Music whereas Emerson learned from his mother. It's funny that when the subject of prog keyboard players comes up Laszlo Benko from Omega is rarely mentioned. What about Rick van der Linden?

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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 06 2013 at 20:37
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

I know there was no room to put his beer so he just said f**k it. Emerson couldn't hold a candle to him. I don't think they ever really met.. I would have to agree that Wakeman just couldn't have been bothered. Wakeman even though he didn't finish was trained at The Royal College of Music whereas Emerson learned from his mother. It's funny that when the subject of prog keyboard players comes up Laszlo Benko from Omega is rarely mentioned. What about Rick van der Linden?


Rick van der Linden (R.I.P.) was incredible. He was right up there with those guys, IMO. The only problem was he wasn't British, or like Moraz, didn't play in a British progressive rock band. So he didn't get the same publicity. The first two Trace albums are amazing, IMO. They're rather underrated, and Birds really is one of my favorite prog LPs. Trace was one of a few bands removed from the big UK bands that I was aware of in the '80s. Hell, back then, I didn't know Utopia's first two albums (three, if you like Ra) were prog classics. I thought Utopia was just a goofy pop-rock band.

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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: August 06 2013 at 20:55
Moraz was Swiss I think and Vangelis turned the job down I think. A Greek guy in Yes? I don't even think Moraz used a moog on Relayer. Have to check that. Rick van der Linden was simply incredible and Trace just like Triumvirat have always been acused of being an ELP copycat band which I never thought was fair. Those first two Trace albums were phenomenal. Ian Mosley's forgotten band. Again I think the modular moog was a roadie's nightmare. That probably would have had something to do with the fact that Wakeman didn't use one. Also he was also he was too busy with all the other sh*t he was playing.

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Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: August 06 2013 at 23:04
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

Moraz was Swiss I think and Vangelis turned the job down I think. A Greek guy in Yes? I don't even think Moraz used a moog on Relayer. Have to check that. Rick van der Linden was simply incredible and Trace just like Triumvirat have always been acused of being an ELP copycat band which I never thought was fair. Those first two Trace albums were phenomenal. Ian Mosley's forgotten band. Again I think the modular moog was a roadie's nightmare. That probably would have had something to do with the fact that Wakeman didn't use one. Also he was also he was too busy with all the other sh*t he was playing.

I believe Moraz was a minimoog guy and his lead synth work on Relayer reflects that.  There's also a live Yes video from their 1975 tour called "Yes Live at Queens Park Rangers Stadium" and he uses one for his lead synth sounds.


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 01:03
He couldn't afford it. 


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 01:10
Probably not. but look at all the fake sounds and simulations that you can get out of keyboards today. You don't need a mellotron, Moog or even a Hammond organ. Listen to this. Wha kind of keyboard was used here ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8XNBpIkQpU" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8XNBpIkQpU


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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 01:36
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

I know there was no room to put his beer so he just said f**k it. Emerson couldn't hold a candle to him. I don't think they ever really met.. I would have to agree that Wakeman just couldn't have been bothered. Wakeman even though he didn't finish was trained at The Royal College of Music whereas Emerson learned from his mother. It's funny that when the subject of prog keyboard players comes up Laszlo Benko from Omega is rarely mentioned. What about Rick van der Linden?

Three Fates suggests that Emerson could hold a candle to Wakey. Wakeman was generally more fluid whihc was his appeal. Emerson loved the organ more than the piano and tailored his technique around that imo. Both are great although I think Moraz may have been better than  both as I mentioned before as he could cover all basses and seemed to have more interest in jazz than Wakeman. Jurgen Fritz and Eddie Jobson would be the next contenders in my book. Triumvirate first couple of albums were amazingly good (not a fan of anything after that though) while Jobsons work with UK and Curved Air stood out as well.


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 02:22
Emerson was more of a showman which probably would explain why he did not exploit his full potential. Look at what he called his book " Pictures Of An Exhibitionist ". There you go. Great book. I never saw Wakeman with a rotating piano just a lot of capes, robes beer and Rolls-Royces. With Emerson it was leather, motorcyclescognac & cocaine. Jurgen Fritz had to make those atrocious albums a La Carte and ( gasp Dead ) Russian Roulette. But like idiots we went out and bought them in the false hope that there might be something left..

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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 09:18
I can't say I actually bought A La Carte and Russian Roulette.

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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 09:37
I did because I'm an idiot. I tried my best to get something out of a la Carte without success.

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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 22:13
Originally posted by Shutoku

I have both retro albums. I like most of them but there are parts I don't care for as much...not so much because of the sounds but the music itself.
I mean at the end of the day, a great song on a beat up piano is still a great song, and a bad song played on minimoogs and mellotrons is still a bad song. I tend to prefer the analog synths and hammond and mellotron over the digital synth sounds, but that doesn't mean I'll like something just because it uses vintage gear, if the music itself doesn't appeal to me.
Retro 1 especially is one I like more than many of his more recent ones though.
tbh though, he has such a staggering number of albums out, he may have some gems I've not given a proper listen to.


     Well, I didn't like all the songs from both albums. I guess all songs were OK, but not every one was excellent. However, they did have a few gems, specially "Just Another Day", and "The Temple of Life", which I think are as good as anything he worked in the 70's. As a matter of fact I was somewhat surprised by how un-70's his vintage keyboards sounded in this albums, they actually had a rather modern sound to my ears.

     I don't know which albums you have lisened to, and I certainly haven't got all of his albums, but some albums or songs that I have liked are, well, the whole of "Out There" (that album I did like a lot from beginning to end, but specially "Cathedral in the Sky" is really outstanding); Ice (from Time Machine); some songs from "Phantom Power", though they are somewhat prog, but Ramon Remedio's vocals sound really cool; "Hymn of Hope", "A Little Piece of Heaven / Part of the Crowd", "Why keep hiding / Running Away" (from Can you Hear Me); "The Fighter" (from Fields of Green); some songs from Return to the Center of the Earth; and oh yeah, the live album "Out of the Blue" (and the DVD counterpart "Live in Argentina") are both very nice too.


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 23:47
Originally posted by richardh

Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

I know there was no room to put his beer so he just said f**k it. Emerson couldn't hold a candle to him. I don't think they ever really met.. I would have to agree that Wakeman just couldn't have been bothered. Wakeman even though he didn't finish was trained at The Royal College of Music whereas Emerson learned from his mother. It's funny that when the subject of prog keyboard players comes up Laszlo Benko from Omega is rarely mentioned. What about Rick van der Linden?

Three Fates suggests that Emerson could hold a candle to Wakey. Wakeman was generally more fluid whihc was his appeal. Emerson loved the organ more than the piano and tailored his technique around that imo. Both are great although I think Moraz may have been better than  both as I mentioned before as he could cover all basses and seemed to have more interest in jazz than Wakeman. Jurgen Fritz and Eddie Jobson would be the next contenders in my book. Triumvirate first couple of albums were amazingly good (not a fan of anything after that though) while Jobsons work with UK and Curved Air stood out as well.

I've always been much more partial to organ (Cathedral, Church, Hammond, Farfisa, Vox, whatever) than acoustic piano so Emo has always ranked tops in my book.  I much prefer Moraz over Wakeman as far as Yes material goes, and I loved his work in Refugee.  

Speaking of Moraz, I just read a fascinating interview with him yesterday where he discusses how he loved being in Yes and contrary to the PR story, did not quit but was "asked to leave" to make room for Wakeman's return in '77.  Disturbingly, he also describes never being paid for the 65 date Yes '76 tour and that even though he co-wrote "Parallels", "Going for the One", and "Awaken", he was never credited (or obviously paid).  To his credit, he doesn't seem at all bitter but was just setting the record straight.  I always wondered why he was never part of the Yes Re-Union tour?  Maybe it was his choice not to participate 'cause he figured he wouldn't get paid Wink  

Anyway, you can check it out in his own words here: 

http://www.dmme.net/interviews/moraz.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.dmme.net/interviews/moraz.html


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 08 2013 at 03:59
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King


Speaking of Moraz, I just read a fascinating interview with him yesterday where he discusses how he loved being in Yes and contrary to the PR story, did not quit but was "asked to leave" to make room for Wakeman's return in '77.  Disturbingly, he also describes never being paid for the 65 date Yes '76 tour and that even though he co-wrote "Parallels", "Going for the One", and "Awaken", he was never credited (or obviously paid).  To his credit, he doesn't seem at all bitter but was just setting the record straight.  I always wondered why he was never part of the Yes Re-Union tour?  Maybe it was his choice not to participate 'cause he figured he wouldn't get paid Wink  

Anyway, you can check it out in his own words here: 

http://www.dmme.net/interviews/moraz.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.dmme.net/interviews/moraz.html
Moraz sued Yes for that, and he won the trial but got much less money than he was claiming or expecting. Probably it's this episode which distanced them so he never featured again in any of the many Yes reunions, history videos etc.


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: August 08 2013 at 10:51
Originally posted by Gerinski

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King


Speaking of Moraz, I just read a fascinating interview with him yesterday where he discusses how he loved being in Yes and contrary to the PR story, did not quit but was "asked to leave" to make room for Wakeman's return in '77.  Disturbingly, he also describes never being paid for the 65 date Yes '76 tour and that even though he co-wrote "Parallels", "Going for the One", and "Awaken", he was never credited (or obviously paid).  To his credit, he doesn't seem at all bitter but was just setting the record straight.  I always wondered why he was never part of the Yes Re-Union tour?  Maybe it was his choice not to participate 'cause he figured he wouldn't get paid Wink  

Anyway, you can check it out in his own words here: 

http://www.dmme.net/interviews/moraz.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.dmme.net/interviews/moraz.html
Moraz sued Yes for that, and he won the trial but got much less money than he was claiming or expecting. Probably it's this episode which distanced them so he never featured again in any of the many Yes reunions, history videos etc.

Interesting...for all their "cosmic good karma vibe" it's sad that Yes (and/or their management) chose to spin their PR machine this way against Moraz.  I obviously don't know for sure, but I can't see any good reason to withhold his 20% of the '76 tour net income or deny his writing credits on GFTO other than greed and spite (which seems all the more misguided since Moraz stepped in and saved their bacon after Wakeman left them high and dry, and Vangelis couldn't straighten out his foreign work visa mess)...and don't forget Moraz was tight enough with Howe and Squire that he handled most of the keyboard duties on their 1st solo albums.  He should have been treated much better. 

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time Wink


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Rando
Date Posted: August 08 2013 at 17:41
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time Wink


There might not have been enough room on stage for all their keyboards, let alone their egos!
I mean all these guys are great each in their own right and its too bad some of them ended up in lawsuits whether over artistic differences, personality clashes, or credit not given. I can imagine the static atmosphere of being in the studio (or on stage) with Yes. How many times did Wakeman walk out and left the band! I'd love to have been a fly on those walls! More like drooling over all those mellotrons & synths! even if Wakeman didn't have a Modular Moog. Actually I'd love to have seen Wakeman use a Vox Continental or a Farfisa! instead of a Modular! LOL

Ya, the Union tour would have been beyond remarkable with all three of them together on stage. I always wondered how Yes music would have been if  "Vangelis" had joined Yes. But then he's the one that got the Oscar.Star

Smile


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~Entangled In Your Own Dreams...~


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: August 08 2013 at 17:52
Originally posted by Rando

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time Wink


There might not have been enough room on stage for all their keyboards, let alone their egos!

I mean all these guys are great each in their own right and its too bad some of them ended up in lawsuits whether over artistic differences, personality clashes, or credit not given.

Ya, the Union tour would have been beyond remarkable with all three of them together on stage.

Ya, I bet things would've gotten pretty tense between Wakey and Moraz when they began to arrange "Awaken"..."this is my part"..."no, this is my part"..."I wrote it"..."no, I wrote it"...LOL


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: August 08 2013 at 18:16
Originally posted by Rando

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time Wink


There might not have been enough room on stage for all their keyboards, let alone their egos!
I mean all these guys are great each in their own right and its too bad some of them ended up in lawsuits whether over artistic differences, personality clashes, or credit not given. I can imagine the static atmosphere of being in the studio (or on stage) with Yes. How many times did Wakeman walk out and left the band! I'd love to have been a fly on those walls! More like drooling over all those mellotrons & synths! even if Wakeman didn't have a Modular Moog. Actually I'd love to have seen Wakeman use a Vox Continental or a Farfisa! instead of a Modular! LOL

Ya, the Union tour would have been beyond remarkable with all three of them together on stage. I always wondered how Yes music would have been if  "Vangelis" had joined Yes. But then he's the one that got the Oscar.Star

Smile

I don't think Yes ever composed a movie score. I liked Vangelis' score for Conquest Of Paradise a lot more than Chariots. Hell I've run a 4 minute mile. Even the movie was sh*t. Just because Roger Bannister was the first guy to be officially recorded as running a 4 minute mile doesn't mean it wasa feat that was not previously achieved. I'm sure a Cheetah holds the land speed record for a living breathing creature. I'd like to see Roger vs  Cheetah. 


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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 08 2013 at 19:06
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time


Instead of one hand on the keyboard and one hand on a beer, Tony could have shown us his two-hands-on-beers, no-hands-on-keyboard technique.

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 08 2013 at 19:20
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

Originally posted by Rando

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time Wink


There might not have been enough room on stage for all their keyboards, let alone their egos!
I mean all these guys are great each in their own right and its too bad some of them ended up in lawsuits whether over artistic differences, personality clashes, or credit not given. I can imagine the static atmosphere of being in the studio (or on stage) with Yes. How many times did Wakeman walk out and left the band! I'd love to have been a fly on those walls! More like drooling over all those mellotrons & synths! even if Wakeman didn't have a Modular Moog. Actually I'd love to have seen Wakeman use a Vox Continental or a Farfisa! instead of a Modular! LOL

Ya, the Union tour would have been beyond remarkable with all three of them together on stage. I always wondered how Yes music would have been if  "Vangelis" had joined Yes. But then he's the one that got the Oscar.Star

Smile

I don't think Yes ever composed a movie score. I liked Vangelis' score for Conquest Of Paradise a lot more than Chariots. Hell I've run a 4 minute mile. Even the movie was sh*t. Just because Roger Bannister was the first guy to be officially recorded as running a 4 minute mile doesn't mean it wasa feat that was not previously achieved. I'm sure a Cheetah holds the land speed record for a living breathing creature. I'd like to see Roger vs  Cheetah. 
Ermm 
 
Wakeman has composed a few film scores, as has Patrick Moraz, (which was the point Rando was making). Anderson composed two original songs for the film http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090729/soundtrack?ref_=tt_trv_snd" rel="nofollow - Biggles ... they were as bad as the film.
 
A cheetah cannot run a mile at full speed, It can accelerate from 0 to 60mph in 3 seconds but can only sustain it for a few hundred yards at a time and then has to slow down to cool off and conserve energy, it would cover the remaining distance at around 4mph. (the maths for this is trivial enough  - it would take at least 11 minutes to cover the mile if it were inclined to, however, they seldom are). A human can accelerate from 0-15mph in 3 seconds but can maintain that speed for a mile, also over the first yard or so the human is quicker because it is a biped (naturally unstable so has gravity-assisted initial acceleration). So, if Bannister wasn't an old man in his 90s he would win. But all this is not only completely off topic, it is completely irrelevent as Charriots of Fire was about Harold Abrahams and Eric Lidel winning gold in thew 1928 Olympics, not Roger Bannister and the sub 4-minute mile 26 years later. Nice try but no coconut.
 
 


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: August 08 2013 at 19:53
It's been a while since I was forced into the theatre to see the movie. I always thought it was about Bannister. I sort of agree with your maths. You're right about the Cheetah. It expends so much energy on that burst of speed that it overheats. That's why like  many predators it lies in wait. The Cheetah will lie in wait on high ground and select the weakest Thompson's Gazelle, Impala, Zebra from a herd  or whatever is available and choose the moment for it's high speed dash. If it f**ks it up then no dinner.

But Yes have never collectively written a film score. Tangerine Dream have done a few so has Emerson on his own.

But I guess I have to do without my coconut. 


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Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: August 08 2013 at 20:05
Originally posted by verslibre

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time


Instead of one hand on the keyboard and one hand on a beer, Tony could have shown us his two-hands-on-beers, no-hands-on-keyboard technique.

...and meanwhile Rick was so busy showing off his two fisted Vindaloo technique that it's left to Moraz to actually play the keyboard parts Thumbs Up


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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 09 2013 at 00:06
^^^^I have to add, I recall Rick's solo keyboard spot on the Onion tour was excellent and MUCH better than what he played on the ABWH tour.

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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 09 2013 at 01:13
As the subject of Chariots Of Fire has been raised (and the score) I think its just worth mentioning that the original album release has a side long suite that was not part of the score but based on it .. and its excellent. I also think its a decent film although that opening sequence on the beach has now been lampooned almost as much as the head spinning scene in the Exorcist.Smile


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: August 09 2013 at 07:25
Well Mad magazine had a field day with any film that made it big at the box office.

I never really knew about the Patrick Moraz thing. Yes were not an easy band to be part of. Vangelis did the right thing and said "I don't want anything to do with this conflagration", I'm sure that Wakeman returned with conditions.


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Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: August 09 2013 at 15:35
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

Well Mad magazine had a field day with any film that made it big at the box office.

I never really knew about the Patrick Moraz thing. Yes were not an easy band to be part of. Vangelis did the right thing and said "I don't want anything to do with this conflagration", I'm sure that Wakeman returned with conditions.

Wow, did Vangelis actually say that?  Quite an astute observation...I wonder how long it took him to figure that out Wink

As far as Wakeman coming back, he tells a story that while still in negotiations with the band to return, he sees the latest copy of Melody Maker and splashed across the headline was "Wakeman Rejoins Yes!"  He asks Squire, "what would you have done if I hadn't agreed to come back?" and Squire says something like, "we both knew that wouldn't happen".  Yes is one bizarre organization LOL


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: CKnoxW
Date Posted: August 09 2013 at 15:58
Originally posted by Dean

 1. As a trained pianist (more so than Emerson) Wakeman prefered polyphonic instruments [there is an amusing anecdote that when he forst played a Moog he thought it was broken because it was monophonic]

Actually, he got his first minimoog half off because the guy that sold it to him thought it was broken because it was monophonic. Wakeman knew it was. It's in the Moog documentary.

Not trying to sound like an a****le by the way Wink


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 09 2013 at 16:18
Originally posted by CKnoxW

Originally posted by Dean

 1. As a trained pianist (more so than Emerson) Wakeman prefered polyphonic instruments [there is an amusing anecdote that when he forst played a Moog he thought it was broken because it was monophonic]

Actually, he got his first minimoog half off because the guy that sold it to him thought it was broken because it was monophonic. Wakeman knew it was. It's in the Moog documentary.

Not trying to sound like an a****le by the way Wink
In the silent media of Internet forums I have no idea what you sound like... 

However, I knew there was a story about Wakeman and the monophonic Moog just forgot the precise details.Embarrassed


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 10 2013 at 16:14
Originally posted by Dean

However, I knew there was a story about Wakeman and the monophonic Moog just forgot the precise details.


I hadn't heard that one. I just know the more famous story about Wakeman taping the knobs once he'd articulated a more than satisfactory patch so that they wouldn't move, and then going and buying another Mini-Moog.

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Posted By: CKnoxW
Date Posted: August 10 2013 at 18:06
It's crazy to think that there used to be a time when prog musicians were so rich that they could afford to buy, in Rick Wakeman's case, NINE Minimoogs, among the rest of their gear.


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 10 2013 at 18:26
Originally posted by CKnoxW

It's crazy to think that there used to be a time when prog musicians were so rich that they could afford to buy, in Rick Wakeman's case, NINE Minimoogs, among the rest of their gear.
NINE Minimoogs = ONE Moog Modular - that's why Wakeman didn't have a Modular unit, he spent all his dosh on Minimoogs LOL


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: August 10 2013 at 21:44
He also had a Rolls Royce collection. 

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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 10 2013 at 22:26
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

He also had a Rolls Royce collection. 
.........and his liver was re-arranged to its solid mental grace........LOL


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 02:39
Does anyone know how much of his "arsenal" Keith was able to hold on to after his divorce in the '90s? I recall he camped out on his keyboard tech Will Alexander's couch for a spell...

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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 03:31
Originally posted by verslibre

Does anyone know how much of his "arsenal" Keith was able to hold on to after his divorce in the '90s? I recall he camped out on his keyboard tech Will Alexander's couch for a spell...
In this interview he talks about the gear he decided to keep and the gear he put for sale when he decided to move to California. Interesting interview btw
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_articles/may95/keithemerson.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_articles/may95/keithemerson.html


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 03:33

That's why you don't get married.............................................(it's only a 'status' thing................)



Posted By: Shutoku
Date Posted: August 12 2013 at 03:26
Wakeman's half off first mini story...the original owner was actor Jack Wild, best known as Artful Dodger in the movie "Oliver" and then on the Children's show "HR Puff 'n stuff"

On the 9 mini's he used to own...all were stolen. He had to buy new (to him) ones when he thankfully decided to start using them again instead of using digital synths to cover the old minimoog parts.

I do not believe the stories about him taping knobs in place and then buying a new one. Watch the original Journey to the Centre of the Earth concert and you will see he was very adept at making adjustments on the fly. There is a great scene of him playing Catherine Parr from 6 wives, with his right hand flawlessly at high speed on the Hammond, while looking at and totally focused on a minimoog to his left , making a full scale patch change on it.

You will find plenty of pictures and video where there are notes taped onto the panel...even to this day he does that, but I believe it is just a sort of short hand of where certain parameters go for certain pieces.

There is also the story he tells about a show with an intermission. One of the moogs wasn't working. Bob Moog happened to be at the show and went backstage in the intermission, saying he thought he knew what the problem was and would like to take a look. So off Bob goes to look at the moog. Wakeman heads back on stage a few minutes later for the second half of the show, and Bob has the synth completely dismantled and is working away on it oblivious to his surroundings. Wakeman went on stage and finished the show, the whole time with Bob also within the keyboard rig tinkering away. LOL (no word on if the problem was curry in the moog works!Wink )



Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: August 13 2013 at 02:04
Originally posted by Shutoku

I do not believe the stories about him taping knobs in place and then buying a new one.


I first read of that "legend" in Keyboard Magazine in the late '80s and back then the staffers were wired directly into the grapevine. I assume they still ought to be.

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Posted By: zumacraig
Date Posted: August 13 2013 at 10:27
Originally posted by Shutoku

Wakeman's half off first mini story...the original owner was actor Jack Wild, best known as Artful Dodger in the movie "Oliver" and then on the Children's show "HR Puff 'n stuff"

On the 9 mini's he used to own...all were stolen. He had to buy new (to him) ones when he thankfully decided to start using them again instead of using digital synths to cover the old minimoog parts.

I do not believe the stories about him taping knobs in place and then buying a new one. Watch the original Journey to the Centre of the Earth concert and you will see he was very adept at making adjustments on the fly. There is a great scene of him playing Catherine Parr from 6 wives, with his right hand flawlessly at high speed on the Hammond, while looking at and totally focused on a minimoog to his left , making a full scale patch change on it.

You will find plenty of pictures and video where there are notes taped onto the panel...even to this day he does that, but I believe it is just a sort of short hand of where certain parameters go for certain pieces.

There is also the story he tells about a show with an intermission. One of the moogs wasn't working. Bob Moog happened to be at the show and went backstage in the intermission, saying he thought he knew what the problem was and would like to take a look. So off Bob goes to look at the moog. Wakeman heads back on stage a few minutes later for the second half of the show, and Bob has the synth completely dismantled and is working away on it oblivious to his surroundings. Wakeman went on stage and finished the show, the whole time with Bob also within the keyboard rig tinkering away. LOL (no word on if the problem was curry in the moog works!Wink )


That Bob Moog story is AWESOME!  Thanks for that!


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