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Prog !! is it a one man effort , or a Teamwork !

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Topic: Prog !! is it a one man effort , or a Teamwork !
Posted By: trackstoni
Subject: Prog !! is it a one man effort , or a Teamwork !
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 15:56
   Nothing to add , my Question is above !!  Wink 

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Tracking Tracks of Rock



Replies:
Posted By: trackstoni
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 16:06
Just to be clear & honest in this   .   Is Ian Anderson (  Jethro Tull )  ?   is he the only man behind the Beauty of Aqualung , TAAB or APP ?  is Roger Waters or David Gilmour behind the 5 masterpieces of the Floyds  !?   is Robert Fripp the only Genius to create 4 masterpieces & 6 excellent albums !!?     my Question is Flat & Clear , Kindly be short & accurate , i 'm not into bullsh*tting anyone in here , but , i would like to hear your answers !

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Tracking Tracks of Rock


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 16:11
It's always a band effort in my opinion.
No question. 

It's ridiculous to say that Gilmour is the reason PF produced their albums solely. Same with Fripp and the others that could be considered for this list.


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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 16:19
Some would have us think it is a one-man effort (think of Bruford calling Anderson "Little Napoleon"!) but, as a musician and band mate of some great musicians, I can tell you that it is a band effort.  

Some members contribute more than others, and if you think of their solo releases, you can get an idea of their contributions as composers vs. players.  For example, Chris Squire's solo catalog is rather sparse compared to Anderson's.  

When it clicks, it really clicks!  I can't tell you the joy & power that happens onstage when a band is truly connecting on a very high level.  It's nearly indescribable. 


Posted By: unforgivable74
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 16:53
The ideas may well eminate from one person but unless he or she plays everything on the album surely the end product is a melding of the idea and the execution.

To use a 'current' example, Steven Wilson's 'Raven' is very much a solo project but you can't take away the contributions from the wonderful musicians on the album. 


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Laughs as I clean my teeth, laughs as I rub at my eyes.


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 17:35
There's Prog of all kinds, one-man efforts and team-efforts.
Even in the case of one-man efforts (unless it's a one-man band), the other band's members performance is extremely important, they need to understand the idea from the creator and create and play accordingly, Queen's March Of The Black Queen may have been Freddy Mercury's composition but I can guess that the other band members had an important role in how the song sounds.


Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 17:45
It always makes for better music when the personalities are fused. And even better when every single person is 100% behind every part. I usually keep going until that happens.

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http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/

wtf


Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 20:37
Yes.

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http://www.last.fm/user/TullDerGraff" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: stegor
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 22:18
The only One-Man-Effort that really works for me is Mike Oldfield. It might be because he has always been a lone bard. People like IanAnderson, who may have thought they were the only or most important ingredient in a stew, weren't. He may have been the meat, but beef stew without the rest of it it's just soggy meat.

Sorry, I love Ian. But he wasn't Jethro Tull.


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 23:07
Since it seems we're picking on Ian Anderson, he may have written TAAB but he certainly did not tell Barriemore Barlow how to play the drum solo that opens side 2...and in Aqualung, he may have written the song but he assuredly did not tell Martin Barre what notes to play in the guitar solo.  One person may bring the chords and lyrics but the individual quirks, style, and personalities of the other band members are what makes the finished song.  I've always believed that if the songwriter tells the other band members exactly what notes to play and how to play them, then the songwriter should get the sole credit (and royalties), otherwise, it should be credited as a band composition.

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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 09 2013 at 23:14
Originally posted by cstack3

Some would have us think it is a one-man effort (think of Bruford calling Anderson "Little Napoleon"!) but, as a musician and band mate of some great musicians, I can tell you that it is a band effort.  

Some members contribute more than others, and if you think of their solo releases, you can get an idea of their contributions as composers vs. players.  For example, Chris Squire's solo catalog is rather sparse compared to Anderson's.  

When it clicks, it really clicks!  I can't tell you the joy & power that happens onstage when a band is truly connecting on a very high level.  It's nearly indescribable. 

Very well said. You took the thought out of my mind. Even though there might be a main or sole composer, the music comes from the band effort.


Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 00:10
Originally posted by trackstoni

Is Ian Anderson (  Jethro Tull )  ?   is he the only man behind the Beauty of Aqualung , TAAB or APP ?  

No
Originally posted by trackstoni

is Roger Waters or David Gilmour behind the 5 masterpieces of the Floyds !?   

No
Originally posted by trackstoni

is Robert Fripp the only Genius to create 4 masterpieces & 6 excellent albums !!?

No   

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Have you seen them Khajiits?


Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 00:35
Obviously there are many solo projects out there that were the product of a single artist, but as the member of a (prog-ish) band I can testify to the fact that the contribution of every band member is vital to the success of a musical project.  I write the majority of my band's songs, but they would never be nearly as good without the input of my band members.  I do most of the basic composing (and when someone else has a basic idea I usually arrange it) but the other guys typically work their own parts out along the basic harmonic structure - and I know nothing about drums so my drummer writes all his own parts.  Many of my songs would have been unbearably annoying had the rest of the band not had vital input in their composition (like "do you really need that third guitar solo and does this song really need to be 8 minutes long?) and often a part added to an already composed song completely changes it's character and makes it better; for example, we just got a second guitar player who has added so much to our sound - I had written a singer-songwriter type thing that the band was working on, and Jim (the other guitar player) came in and started playing this dark, slightly dissonant arpeggio over the chords that completely changed the character of the song and more poignantly illustrated the theme of the piece.

So yeah, it's a band effort.


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In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.


Posted By: tripplec723
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 01:43
Check out my band Vie Jester's new EP Cognisense   www.reverbnation.com/viejester

www.viejester.com


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 02:52
Originally posted by Horizons

It's always a band effort in my opinion.
No question. 

It's ridiculous to say that Gilmour is the reason PF produced their albums solely. Same with Fripp and the others that could be considered for this list.
This

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My Music: www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com
My blog: www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com


Posted By: Josef_K
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 03:10
It's always a band effort if it's a band. Robert Fripp chose people who could complete his vision to an extent, but if King Crimson had been a one-man thing he wouldn't have had a band to begin with. You play with other people because the result is better (or just different and interesting) compared to playing alone. I don't think good music ever works in the way that someone writes a masterpiece, then hires some people and tells them exactly what to play. Perhaps some of my favorite albums are made that way, but I highly doubt it.
 
That said, I don't doubt that great albums like "Story of I", "Olias of Sunhillow" etc are one-man efforts, but those were never labeled as a band effort either.


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Leave the past to burn,
At least that's been his own

- Peter Hammill


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 10:48
Originally posted by trackstoni

   Nothing to add , my Question is above !!  Wink 
 
You will find just as many of one person, as you will bands ... !!!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: HemispheresOfXanadu
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 13:02
I know a lot of people who seem to think that a band consists of a vocalist with nameless people playing instruments. LOL

Definitely a band effort in my opinion though, even if a song were written by one person, I don't believe that if they had someone else play a small sax part (lets say) that it would sound the same if someone else had played it (not applicable if the one person wrote all the music and played all the instruments).


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 15:22
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Obviously there are many solo projects out there that were the product of a single artist, but as the member of a (prog-ish) band I can testify to the fact that the contribution of every band member is vital to the success of a musical project.  I write the majority of my band's songs, but they would never be nearly as good without the input of my band members.  I do most of the basic composing (and when someone else has a basic idea I usually arrange it) but the other guys typically work their own parts out along the basic harmonic structure - and I know nothing about drums so my drummer writes all his own parts.  Many of my songs would have been unbearably annoying had the rest of the band not had vital input in their composition (like "do you really need that third guitar solo and does this song really need to be 8 minutes long?) and often a part added to an already composed song completely changes it's character and makes it better; for example, we just got a second guitar player who has added so much to our sound - I had written a singer-songwriter type thing that the band was working on, and Jim (the other guitar player) came in and started playing this dark, slightly dissonant arpeggio over the chords that completely changed the character of the song and more poignantly illustrated the theme of the piece.

So yeah, it's a band effort.

Another great answer from a fellow musician!  

And I agree, I'm a much better bassist/guitarist than drummer!  On keys, I just plain suck (unless it is a Mellotron patch, in which case I can grab a handful of keys, make a major/minor chord and just hold it for a while!!).  




Posted By: maani
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 17:05
There would seem to be a rather simple answer to this question. Unless one plays every instrument, sings, writes lyrics, and produces (including mixing), it is all but impossible for any "progressive" project to be "one-man." Having said that, there are probably a handful of people who could pull this off, but none of them have done so (at least that I am aware of).

So...even if it is just a multi-instrumental, lyric-writing singer, it would still have to be a "collaborative" effort if a separate producer and/or engineer was involved.

??


Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 17:24
Originally posted by maani

There would seem to be a rather simple answer to this question. Unless one plays every instrument, sings, writes lyrics, and produces (including mixing), it is all but impossible for any "progressive" project to be "one-man." Having said that, there are probably a handful of people who could pull this off, but none of them have done so (at least that I am aware of).



http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642

I bet Steven Wilson could do it, too (although I don't know if he plays drums or not)


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In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.


Posted By: maani
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 21:39
AH:

I'm pretty sure Wilson does play drums, though I'm not sure how well.  Still, he could certainly do a one-man project of some sort!

Peace.


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: July 10 2013 at 22:15
Depends on the artist.

Obviously Somone like Mike Oldfield is the bees knees for being a one man recking crew.
Guy plays everything.

A band like RUSH or DREAM THEATER fully invite the word team into their vocabulary of musical creativity.

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: antonyus
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 07:28
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Obviously there are many solo projects out there that were the product of a single artist, but as the member of a (prog-ish) band I can testify to the fact that the contribution of every band member is vital to the success of a musical project.  I write the majority of my band's songs, but they would never be nearly as good without the input of my band members.  I do most of the basic composing (and when someone else has a basic idea I usually arrange it) but the other guys typically work their own parts out along the basic harmonic structure - and I know nothing about drums so my drummer writes all his own parts.  Many of my songs would have been unbearably annoying had the rest of the band not had vital input in their composition (like "do you really need that third guitar solo and does this song really need to be 8 minutes long?) and often a part added to an already composed song completely changes it's character and makes it better; for example, we just got a second guitar player who has added so much to our sound - I had written a singer-songwriter type thing that the band was working on, and Jim (the other guitar player) came in and started playing this dark, slightly dissonant arpeggio over the chords that completely changed the character of the song and more poignantly illustrated the theme of the piece.

So yeah, it's a band effort.
This is it ! Clap


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 16:40
It depends on the man and the band.  If we are talking about Vangelis or Mike Oldfield then yes, it is the man who is the band (even though they have been involved with band projects).  But these two, and others like them, are presented as solo artists.  If it is about any of the people you have mentioned, no.  Ian Anderson once said there would be no Jethro Tull without Martin Barre, and even though Anderson is clearly bandmate #1, all the other musicians who have been with the band have contributed to its sound.  What would "A" have sounded like without Eddie Jobson?  Aqualung without John Evan?  Songs From the Wood without David Palmer?  Contrast the various incarnations of King Crimson.  Even with the one consistent person, Fripp, they sound very different and that is not all Fripp's doing.  So, for bands, it is not, and cannot be, a one-man band.
This is a good issue to raise, especially since mainstream music is so much about the singer as a single artist with no consideration for the musicians who play the music (indeed if there are any besides the programming).  As radio stations were growing more and more corporate years ago they tried to elevate the lead singer to almost solo status.  It wasn't just Queen but Freddie Mercury and Queen. Sting and the Police.  Jerry Garcia and the Grateful Dead.  I found these attempts laughable but now it seems insidious.  All band members contribute to the sound.  Jazz great Charles Mingus once said the most important member of the band was the drummer; in contrast Bill Berry (if I have his name right) of R.E.M. saying the drummer was expendable.  No drummer, no matter how simple or basic the playing, is truly replaceable by a machine.
So let's celebrate real music played by real people and honor the contribution of all individuals to the whole sound!  Sax manViolinHandshakeYing YangNuke

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 17:27
Originally posted by Progosopher

This is a good issue to raise, especially since mainstream music is so much about the singer as a single artist with no consideration for the musicians who play the music (indeed if there are any besides the programming).  As radio stations were growing more and more corporate years ago they tried to elevate the lead singer to almost solo status.  It wasn't just Queen but Freddie Mercury and Queen. Sting and the Police.  Jerry Garcia and the Grateful Dead.  I found these attempts laughable but now it seems insidious.

I think making it "all about the singer" is a historical trend which stems from record industry greed.  In the pre-Beatles rock n roll days, it wasn't about the group but the single face that could be "sold".  Elvis, Fabian, Frankie Avalon, Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Little Richard, etc.  If a group was mentioned it was definitely in the status of 2nd class citizens, Buddy Holly and the Crickets, Bill Haley and the Comets, Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons, Gerry and the Pacemakers, Booker T and the MG's, etc...  Besides being an easier "sell", you only have to pay the main guy any real cash, the rest are replaceable cogs making union wage.  

I've heard interviews with George Martin saying that when he auditioned the Beatles, he was looking for the one guy who would be the singer/leader.  Finally he couldn't choose between John & Paul, so why not have them both be the leaders?  Even Ringo was treated like a schmuck at the beginning being replaced be a session drummer on the first recordings.  I remember when the Beatles released "Yesterday", there was a huge firestorm of controversy over whether Paul would become a solo artist and leave the band.  Thankfully, the four lads had their heads on straight and carried on.

Now, popular music has come full circle and we're back to being sold single faces...Shakira, Usher, Emminem, Beyonce, The Bieb, etc.  Unless you're a musician, you'd probably never know that Jennifer Batten played guitar on all those MJ tours.  TV talent shows drive me crazy...without backup musicians, "The Voice" is a boring accapella who probably couldn't even be salvaged by the most advanced auto-tune algorithm.  

Oh well, this was fun...[/RANT]


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 17:33
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Originally posted by maani

There would seem to be a rather simple answer to this question. Unless one plays every instrument, sings, writes lyrics, and produces (including mixing), it is all but impossible for any "progressive" project to be "one-man." Having said that, there are probably a handful of people who could pull this off, but none of them have done so (at least that I am aware of).



http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642

I bet Steven Wilson could do it, too (although I don't know if he plays drums or not)


I do it, and I don't play drums.  Tongue


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http://epignosis.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Listen to the new Epignosis album for free- it's good for your health


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 17:38
I'm afraid we are confusing different hings here, 'one-man bands' and 'one-man led music in multi-members bands'.
The OP (in his 2nd post) makes clear that he is talking about the second case, mentioning Tull, Pink Floyd and KC, all of which are clearly not one-man bands but what he perceives as having made music strongly led by just one member of the band (which btw is the first questionable assumption).

The Wall was clearly led by Roger Waters, but I doubt that he or some average session guitarist could have come up with the guitar parts in Comfortably Numb.

Even if ideas are mostly brought by one band member, the other band members make a huge impact in the final product. That's why as much as I respect one-man efforts, in some other threads I have defended real-band music as having more potential to be great in principle.


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 17:42
Originally posted by Gerinski


The Wall was clearly led by Roger Waters, but I doubt that he or some average session guitarist could have come up with the guitar parts in Comfortably Numb.


The guitar parts in "Comfortably Numb" are decidedly simplistic.  They fit the song though- nothing wrong with simplicity.

But I agree that the guitar parts were Gilmour through and through.  For me, those are his quintessential guitar solos- one in a major key, one in a minor.


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http://epignosis.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Listen to the new Epignosis album for free- it's good for your health


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 17:55
Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Originally posted by maani

There would seem to be a rather simple answer to this question. Unless one plays every instrument, sings, writes lyrics, and produces (including mixing), it is all but impossible for any "progressive" project to be "one-man." Having said that, there are probably a handful of people who could pull this off, but none of them have done so (at least that I am aware of).



http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642

I bet Steven Wilson could do it, too (although I don't know if he plays drums or not)


I do it, and I don't play drums.  Tongue
Me too, and I do play drums LOL


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 17:58
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Originally posted by maani

There would seem to be a rather simple answer to this question. Unless one plays every instrument, sings, writes lyrics, and produces (including mixing), it is all but impossible for any "progressive" project to be "one-man." Having said that, there are probably a handful of people who could pull this off, but none of them have done so (at least that I am aware of).



http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642

I bet Steven Wilson could do it, too (although I don't know if he plays drums or not)


I do it, and I don't play drums.  Tongue
Me too, and I do play drums LOL


Excellent- is there a track of yours you'd recommend right off?


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http://epignosis.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Listen to the new Epignosis album for free- it's good for your health


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 18:08
Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Originally posted by maani

There would seem to be a rather simple answer to this question. Unless one plays every instrument, sings, writes lyrics, and produces (including mixing), it is all but impossible for any "progressive" project to be "one-man." Having said that, there are probably a handful of people who could pull this off, but none of them have done so (at least that I am aware of).



http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642

I bet Steven Wilson could do it, too (although I don't know if he plays drums or not)


I do it, and I don't play drums.  Tongue
Me too, and I do play drums LOL


Excellent- is there a track of yours you'd recommend right off?

Sure, it's the 2nd on the playlist called, "I Can't Stop It" and it lives here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHeCwZ7Yxqs&list=PLL3YgbXK9mtBVvMOEPpq-ysCPlGld7zCF&index=2" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHeCwZ7Yxqs&list=PLL3YgbXK9mtBVvMOEPpq-ysCPlGld7zCF&index=2

Thanks for asking Big smile


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 18:16
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Originally posted by maani

There would seem to be a rather simple answer to this question. Unless one plays every instrument, sings, writes lyrics, and produces (including mixing), it is all but impossible for any "progressive" project to be "one-man." Having said that, there are probably a handful of people who could pull this off, but none of them have done so (at least that I am aware of).



http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642

I bet Steven Wilson could do it, too (although I don't know if he plays drums or not)


I do it, and I don't play drums.  Tongue
Me too, and I do play drums LOL


Excellent- is there a track of yours you'd recommend right off?

Sure, it's the 2nd on the playlist called, "I Can't Stop It" and it lives here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHeCwZ7Yxqs&list=PLL3YgbXK9mtBVvMOEPpq-ysCPlGld7zCF&index=2" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHeCwZ7Yxqs&list=PLL3YgbXK9mtBVvMOEPpq-ysCPlGld7zCF&index=2

Thanks for asking Big smile


Frankly, I would never have picked that one based on the title, but nice!

To me, it's like Camel found some twisted energy and a distortion box.


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http://epignosis.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Listen to the new Epignosis album for free- it's good for your health


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 18:56
Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Originally posted by maani

There would seem to be a rather simple answer to this question. Unless one plays every instrument, sings, writes lyrics, and produces (including mixing), it is all but impossible for any "progressive" project to be "one-man." Having said that, there are probably a handful of people who could pull this off, but none of them have done so (at least that I am aware of).



http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642

I bet Steven Wilson could do it, too (although I don't know if he plays drums or not)


I do it, and I don't play drums.  Tongue
Me too, and I do play drums LOL


Excellent- is there a track of yours you'd recommend right off?

Sure, it's the 2nd on the playlist called, "I Can't Stop It" and it lives here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHeCwZ7Yxqs&list=PLL3YgbXK9mtBVvMOEPpq-ysCPlGld7zCF&index=2" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHeCwZ7Yxqs&list=PLL3YgbXK9mtBVvMOEPpq-ysCPlGld7zCF&index=2

Thanks for asking Big smile


Frankly, I would never have picked that one based on the title, but nice!

To me, it's like Camel found some twisted energy and a distortion box.

A twisted distorted Camel...I like that LOL  Thanks for giving me a listen!  

I just gave your track Refulgence a spin...very nice...I really like the vocals & guitar work...first rate production.  How do you get your mellotron sound?


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 19:00
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Originally posted by maani

There would seem to be a rather simple answer to this question. Unless one plays every instrument, sings, writes lyrics, and produces (including mixing), it is all but impossible for any "progressive" project to be "one-man." Having said that, there are probably a handful of people who could pull this off, but none of them have done so (at least that I am aware of).



http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642

I bet Steven Wilson could do it, too (although I don't know if he plays drums or not)


I do it, and I don't play drums.  Tongue
Me too, and I do play drums LOL


Excellent- is there a track of yours you'd recommend right off?

Sure, it's the 2nd on the playlist called, "I Can't Stop It" and it lives here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHeCwZ7Yxqs&list=PLL3YgbXK9mtBVvMOEPpq-ysCPlGld7zCF&index=2" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHeCwZ7Yxqs&list=PLL3YgbXK9mtBVvMOEPpq-ysCPlGld7zCF&index=2

Thanks for asking Big smile


Frankly, I would never have picked that one based on the title, but nice!

To me, it's like Camel found some twisted energy and a distortion box.

A twisted distorted Camel...I like that LOL  Thanks for giving me a listen!  

I just gave your track Refulgence a spin...very nice...I really like the vocals & guitar work...first rate production.  How do you get your mellotron sound?


http://tweakbench.com/tapeworm" rel="nofollow - Tapeworm !

Thanks for listening. New album (enthusiastically) on the way!  Big smile


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http://epignosis.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Listen to the new Epignosis album for free- it's good for your health


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 19:15
Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

 How do you get your mellotron sound?


http://tweakbench.com/tapeworm" rel="nofollow - Tapeworm !

Thanks for listening. New album (enthusiastically) on the way!  Big smile

Your Tapeworm tron sounds great!  In the early 90's when I recorded "I Can't Stop It" I was using an Emu Vintage Keys rackmount.  Nowadays I have samples direct from a mid 70's M400 loaded on a Yamaha Motif XF.  I can never get enough of the combination of tron strings and distorted guitar Wink


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 19:38
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

 How do you get your mellotron sound?


http://tweakbench.com/tapeworm" rel="nofollow - Tapeworm !

Thanks for listening. New album (enthusiastically) on the way!  Big smile

Your Tapeworm tron sounds great!  In the early 90's when I recorded "I Can't Stop It" I was using an Emu Vintage Keys rackmount.  Nowadays I have samples direct from a mid 70's M400 loaded on a Yamaha Motif XF.  I can never get enough of the combination of tron strings and distorted guitar Wink


Oh indeed- there's something about a Mellotron that is so much better than modern strings synths.


-------------
http://epignosis.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Listen to the new Epignosis album for free- it's good for your health


Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 23:06
Any great band I love has been a 100% team effort---Jon Anderson needed the other guys and vice versa---the proof is in the pudding---JA solo stuff mostly mediocre---and that is true of many guys solo efforts in relationship to the group effort. 


Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 11 2013 at 23:27
Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Originally posted by maani

There would seem to be a rather simple answer to this question. Unless one plays every instrument, sings, writes lyrics, and produces (including mixing), it is all but impossible for any "progressive" project to be "one-man." Having said that, there are probably a handful of people who could pull this off, but none of them have done so (at least that I am aware of).



http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642

I bet Steven Wilson could do it, too (although I don't know if he plays drums or not)


I do it, and I don't play drums.  Tongue


Wait...did you program the drums on Refulgence?


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In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 12 2013 at 06:06
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Originally posted by maani

There would seem to be a rather simple answer to this question. Unless one plays every instrument, sings, writes lyrics, and produces (including mixing), it is all but impossible for any "progressive" project to be "one-man." Having said that, there are probably a handful of people who could pull this off, but none of them have done so (at least that I am aware of).



http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4642

I bet Steven Wilson could do it, too (although I don't know if he plays drums or not)


I do it, and I don't play drums.  Tongue


Wait...did you program the drums on Refulgence?


I use http://www.fxpansion.com/index.php?page=1" rel="nofollow - BFD software by FXpansion for my drums, yes.


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http://epignosis.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Listen to the new Epignosis album for free- it's good for your health


Posted By: trackstoni
Date Posted: July 12 2013 at 13:16
   i'm reading carefully all your posts , but kindly , don't promote yourselves here .  We're all Musicians , one Way or another , I Respect all your opinions , but ....   let's stick to the Main Subject !   thanking you all in Advance //

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Tracking Tracks of Rock


Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: July 15 2013 at 23:00
In some cases...a musician/composer will make suggestions to the members of their band regarding just what they want for an atmosphere or in general how they want the piece to come across. If a section or 2 features a brief improvisation, it may be suggested as to what vain stylistically they expect from the players. I have in mind Tony Banks directing pieces he wrote and I imagine Hackett and Rutherford consulting him about the colorful ideas they wanted to add to his pieces. That is not exactly teamwork.
 
Many progressive musicians in the 70's added ideas to pieces already completely written  by 1 particular founding member. In otherwords, they had progressive ideas, but not compositions. An "idea person" colors a piece adding a passage of notes or an atmosphere of sound which didn't originally exist when the piece was written.  In a band situation it can be mainly 1 writer and 3 players with ideas to add. It's not quite teamwork regarding composition and the idea person and the composer are 2 seperate worlds. The process could be considered teamwork in the simple logical sense that they are all working together with their efforts, but I don't think it would be fair to say that they should all get the same credit. If members of a prog band are sharing the writing skills for a composition, then it's teamwork in the writing department.
 
In the case of Robert Fripp composing Lizard and Islands himself, imagine Ian Underwood replacing Mel Collins or Chester Thompson instead of Ian Wallace. Who knows....the music may have sounded different ,but with the same level of quality. Still...Wallace and Collins were not writers for King Crimson. The most popular teamwork historically was Wakeman, Howe, Squire, Bruford, and Anderson meeting at the studio , not speaking very much...yet creating and naturally molding compositions for Fragile. Each musician actually wrote a part for "Heart Of The Sunrise" 


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 20 2013 at 15:00
Originally posted by trackstoni

   i'm reading carefully all your posts , but kindly , don't promote yourselves here .  We're all Musicians , one Way or another , I Respect all your opinions , but ....   let's stick to the Main Subject !   thanking you all in Advance //
 
If you look at music in history and take a different perspective to your question, I think that it is easy to say that music, in general, is undergoing changes, and that for the next however many years, the majority of "composers" are a group, and not one person.
 
That is a concept that "classical" music history is not happy with ... and thus, it is too easy to say that all of rock music and jazz music and basically ALL electric music, will never be recognized. Well, the "classicos" are wrong ... it has already been what? 80 or 90 years of electrical music?
 
And some of the things that it brought to music, was not understood or appreciated ... still isn't! Here is an example:
 
Go listen to Puccini, and you will find that he knows something about "solos" that is very much appreciated in rock music ... he likes them higher and stronger, and louder ... guess what lead guitar solos do in rock music, in general ... think of the likes of DGilmour!
 
Today, you will be hard pressed to list a "composer" that is one person ... mostly they are doing soundtracks or something else, though, you could say a David Bowie, an Elton John, and Madonna, or Kate Bush, are "composers", but we do not think of their music as important enough to give it the title they so richly deserve!
 
I think this is a transitional period in music. In 50 years, this discussion may be mute and a "group" will be apprecaited, but seeing so many orchestras today not adapting to more work that should be done, is pathetic, tiresome and silly. ANY great American orchestra should be doing one or two pieces by Miles Davis, one or two pieces by Frank Zappa, or one or two pieces by someone else ... but America was built by a religious fanaticism, that has spent 300 years killing all the arts ... to make sure the "book" was more important!
 
But you gonna tell me that Frank doesn't fit? Or even Miles? Is there really that much difference between 2, 3 or 4 other folks playing a different instrument than one of them actually sitting down and write it for them? ... sometimes it is not necessary! ... things are just "there"!
 
It's a tough discussion and one that is better left alone and then see what hisroy gives you. I believe "groups" will become accepted as "composers" in the future ... and an orchestra not doing one of their  pieces is only hurting themselves ... more and more as time goes by!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 20 2013 at 16:23
Originally posted by trackstoni

   Nothing to add , my Question is above !!  Wink 
And yet you added a comment right after that, YOU FIEND!!! Tongue


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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 21 2013 at 10:51
Originally posted by Slartibartfast

Originally posted by trackstoni

   Nothing to add , my Question is above !!  Wink 
And yet you added a comment right after that, YOU FIEND!!! Tongue
 
 
The problem is that I am not sure that he is reading what is being written, except the one liners, and thus, his responses are not about the subject, specially when it gets deeper into it.
 
Sad.
 
When one has the opportunity to learn more, one goes back to kindergarten? ... ok ... whatever!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 21 2013 at 12:47
Originally posted by twosteves

Any great band I love has been a 100% team effort---Jon Anderson needed the other guys and vice versa---the proof is in the pudding---JA solo stuff mostly mediocre---and that is true of many guys solo efforts in relationship to the group effort. 
 
^This
 
 


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Et In Arcadia Ego


Posted By: trackstoni
Date Posted: July 21 2013 at 18:25
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by Slartibartfast

Originally posted by trackstoni

   Nothing to add , my Question is above !!  Wink 
And yet you added a comment right after that, YOU FIEND!!! Tongue
 
 
The problem is that I am not sure that he is reading what is being written, except the one liners, and thus, his responses are not about the subject, specially when it gets deeper into it.
 
Sad.
 
When one has the opportunity to learn more, one goes back to kindergarten? ... ok ... whatever!

   With such Mentality Dude , I Wonder how you became a Progger  !!  However , it's drifting outside the real subject !!  Anyway , my second Post  was only there because of a special friend who asked me to throw my opinion on this thread  ! 

  Clap


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Tracking Tracks of Rock


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 23 2013 at 08:49
Originally posted by trackstoni


 
   With such Mentality Dude , I Wonder how you became a Progger  !!  However , it's drifting outside the real subject !!  Anyway , my second Post  was only there because of a special friend who asked me to throw my opinion on this thread  ! 

  Clap
 
You should wonder about yours ... I was there and one of the folks that helped it become what it did ... not your fault that you weren't born there, but what the heck ... your attitude is so far apart from the whole thing, in fact, quite naive, and you are not willing, capable, or interested in reading a bit more on the subject!
 
So let's talk who is the "progger" of the two!
 
Your question is not even a progressive one!Cool


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 24 2013 at 00:40
I wonder which musicians have succeeded in both 'formats' ?
Peter Gabriel
Pete Hammill
Rick Wakeman
Vangelis
Steve Hackett

perhaps also got 'too big for their own boots' or perhaps just a case of talent outgrowing the band format..


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 24 2013 at 12:56
Originally posted by richardh

I wonder which musicians have succeeded in both 'formats' ?
...
perhaps also got 'too big for their own boots' or perhaps just a case of talent outgrowing the band format..
 
Sometimes. Sometimes not.
 
I think that some folks are, at times, better developed, in their ideas of what they would like to see done in music, than others ... I mean, are we going to criticize Mike Oldfield for not playing in a band now? ... and he had his start with Kevin Ayers and a few other folks!
 
I think that folks like Peter Hammill, Roy Harper, Mike Oldfield, Vangelis and many others, already had a well developed sense of identity, in order to be able to define it with music.
 
Folks like Peter Gabriel, learned it with his band ... and we have to give him credit ... he studied, and did his homework ... where most musicians get lazy and go for the fame and close down the shop!
 
The main difference for me, is that in a place like America, where there are no artists, just "stars", it is really difficult to find and help a true artist, and folks like Frank Zappa have to go mental against the system to get something done, because otherwise he wouldn't sell, and would not be able to make a living. He was well known here, mostly due to the LA Free Press, but in New York and Chicago? ... they had their own "gods" and "stars" and he was not appreciated until later! And even John Lennon had already mentioned him, when so few people in America gave a darn, THEN.
 
No two situations are the same ... I just don't think that any music has anything to do with anything, or any kind of music anymore ... and there is no difference between a single and a double anymore (LP's ... hahaha!)  ... and while an interesting question, in so many ways, it is a serious issue that is causing the re-evaluation of the definition of music ... that most folks don't want to deal with ... any more than anyone else here does!
 
 


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: July 24 2013 at 17:18
Band effort - almost by definition...

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Posted By: unclemeat69
Date Posted: July 26 2013 at 12:51
Compare VDGG with Peter Hammill solo and you hear the difference.
VDGG is very much a team effort, with Hammill solo he might have much more to say about arrangements.
With a lot of solo albums I think a lot of thought would go into which musicians to hbire to play.
So, even with FZ his bands would sound like the musicians in those bands.
I think Zappa picked his musicians partly for their individual sounds.

Some Todd Rundgren albums are solo efforts (or in the case Something/Anything for 75%).
If it's an actual working band (as opposed to hired session musicians) the group of musicians make up the sound and the arrangements might be worked out by the band maybe with some of them having ideas about each other parts occasionally.


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Follow your bliss


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 26 2013 at 13:14
Originally posted by unclemeat69


So, even with FZ his bands would sound like the musicians in those bands.
I think Zappa picked his musicians partly for their individual sounds.

I've read that Frank also picked musicians based on how amusing they would be to observe while on tour LOL


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: trackstoni
Date Posted: July 27 2013 at 10:53
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by trackstoni


 
   With such Mentality Dude , I Wonder how you became a Progger  !!  However , it's drifting outside the real subject !!  Anyway , my second Post  was only there because of a special friend who asked me to throw my opinion on this thread  ! 

  Clap
 
You should wonder about yours ... I was there and one of the folks that helped it become what it did ... not your fault that you weren't born there, but what the heck ... your attitude is so far apart from the whole thing, in fact, quite naive, and you are not willing, capable, or interested in reading a bit more on the subject!
 
So let's talk who is the "progger" of the two!
 
Your question is not even a progressive one!Cool

  THANK YOU moskito , ENJOY WHAT YOU'RE DOING !!


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Tracking Tracks of Rock


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: July 27 2013 at 11:05
Originally posted by richardh

I wonder which musicians have succeeded in both 'formats' ?
Peter Gabriel
Pete Hammill
Rick Wakeman
Vangelis
Steve Hackett
perhaps also got 'too big for their own boots' or perhaps just a case of talent outgrowing the band format..


I think Vangelis is a huge success in my eyes, in respect to your inquiry.

I look at say, Aphrodite's Child (666) which was a beautiful team effort at that; then, Vangelis's album SPIRAL was an incredible one man wrecking. The Unknown Man works for me. ;)

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 06:23
Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by richardh

I wonder which musicians have succeeded in both 'formats' ?
Peter Gabriel
Pete Hammill
Rick Wakeman
Vangelis
Steve Hackett
perhaps also got 'too big for their own boots' or perhaps just a case of talent outgrowing the band format..


I think Vangelis is a huge success in my eyes, in respect to your inquiry.

I look at say, Aphrodite's Child (666) which was a beautiful team effort at that; then, Vangelis's album SPIRAL was an incredible one man wrecking. The Unknown Man works for me. ;)

Vangelis is one of my favourtes. Just spent stupid money on the SACD of Blade Runner even though I don't have a SACD player! Then booklet is very nice thoughSmile 
666 is a remarkable album and ridiculously under appreciated (imo)


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: July 28 2013 at 17:17
Originally posted by richardh


Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by richardh

I wonder which musicians have succeeded in both 'formats' ?
Peter Gabriel
Pete Hammill
Rick Wakeman
Vangelis
Steve Hackett
perhaps also got 'too big for their own boots' or perhaps just a case of talent outgrowing the band format..


I think Vangelis is a huge success in my eyes, in respect to your inquiry.

I look at say, Aphrodite's Child (666) which was a beautiful team effort at that; then, Vangelis's album SPIRAL was an incredible one man wrecking. The Unknown Man works for me. ;)

Vangelis is one of my favourtes. Just spent stupid money on the SACD of Blade Runner even though I don't have a SACD player! Then booklet is very nice thoughSmile 
666 is a remarkable album and ridiculously under appreciated (imo)


If its an SACD/HYBRID disc than you are ok, but I mainly just stuck with the Bladerunner Trilogy edition. It's Enough for me, but i sure would love to hear Bladerunner in full 5.1 audio. :)

-------------
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: trackstoni
Date Posted: August 21 2013 at 10:22
Originally posted by Slartibartfast

Originally posted by trackstoni

   Nothing to add , my Question is above !!  Wink 
And yet you added a comment right after that, YOU FIEND!!! Tongue
  and who the hell are you to tell me what to do in my Thread  !?   my second post was posted cause some friends asked me , what is my main issue from this question !!  as i was linked to Facebook & my Space , i had to Answer that !!  if you feel Startbutnotfinish , i'm in wrong place , just say so , i'm willing to leave immediately  !  well , i promise you that Progger !        Wink    it's Friend anyway not Fiend !!!

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Tracking Tracks of Rock


Posted By: trackstoni
Date Posted: August 21 2013 at 10:30
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by Slartibartfast

Originally posted by trackstoni

   Nothing to add , my Question is above !!  Wink 
And yet you added a comment right after that, YOU FIEND!!! Tongue
 
 
The problem is that I am not sure that he is reading what is being written, except the one liners, and thus, his responses are not about the subject, specially when it gets deeper into it.
 
Sad.
 
When one has the opportunity to learn more, one goes back to kindergarten? ... ok ... whatever!

  the Simple Man just Said to me <  you're an a****le >  and knows nothing about Progressive !  deal with it the Way you Want !   if you're Pushing me moskito , i'm Far away from that , so , let's stick to the Music instead of having Fun !  i'm among the Eldest on this Site , you Respect that  !!  i use to respect your reaction with gratitude , but not anymore !  if i was Stupid , i'm not here answering your stupid comment //


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Tracking Tracks of Rock


Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: August 21 2013 at 10:54
Mosh has a way of talking down to people and claims to have badges for being from a certain time period. I don't care how old you are sometimes you can learn from those younger than yourself. His verbal spankings are harmless, Carry on with the who is oldest pissing match. Me, I will take a famous line from that wonderful classic "Blazing Saddles"....."We don't need no stinking badges".


Posted By: freyacat
Date Posted: September 03 2013 at 10:23
I think of Mike Oldfield as an enlightening case in point. With Mike, you get the composer who writes every note on his albums, and then proceeds to play 99% of the instruments.

Mike Oldfield's albums from the 70's are true prog masterpieces, and yet, most of us would agree that they are less exciting than a Yes or King Crimson album. I would also argue that this lack of excitement stands apart from specific concerns about style or quality of music.

If Mike Oldfield had been humble enough to work within a band, to have his ideas checked against the ideas of other brilliant musicians, what amazing music might have resulted?

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sad creature nailed upon the coloured door of time


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 03 2013 at 12:16
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

...
I think making it "all about the singer" is a historical trend which stems from record industry greed.  
...
 
Please see the TOM DOWD DVD ... it will change your wording on this for sure ... it didn't start there ... it started with movie studios in America wanting to ensure their stars brought in the goods!
 
It also hurt the music, specially black music in America, which 10 years later recovered very nicely thanks to the likes of Blue Note and Detroit and all that.
 


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 03 2013 at 12:46
Originally posted by timothy leary

Mosh has a way of talking down to people and claims to have badges for being from a certain time period. I don't care how old you are sometimes you can learn from those younger than yourself. His verbal spankings are harmless, Carry on with the who is oldest pissing match. Me, I will take a famous line from that wonderful classic "Blazing Saddles"....."We don't need no stinking badges".
 
It's sad that you take things this way ... I am not into badges, but I'm not sure you can forget the time you were stabbed, or hurt ... for example, so your comment is out of line!
 
And I hope that you can, at least, separate the good that sometimes comes with the bad. Or vice versa!
 
And this is not about "spanking", coming from someone that had many a belt and wood busted over my back and behind, in my younger days ... I do not believe in chastisement ... but obviously ... some of you folks don't believe in learning, or finding out that some folks feel, and think, differently, just because they do not kiss your rosy red as$ or any of your sub-cultural idealism and comments!
 
There ... I did my Ernest Borgnine impression in my favorite western. The Wild Bunch!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 03 2013 at 13:14

Oh good grief. Three sexagenarians bickering like children at bedtime.

Only on this forum could you witness such a thing. Disapprove
 
Time to chill guys.


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 12:43
^because you never bicker jitterbug


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 12:50

I try not to, but I am not perfect, even I buckle when provoked. However, this is not "do as I say, not say as I do", I'm simply defusing a silly argument - if that means drawing the fire towards me then so be it.



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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 12:53
I can accept that reasoning



Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 14:23
Anyway, since my attention has been drawn to this thread:
 
I think genuine collaborative teamwork is a very rare thing, many things are the product of teams but most of those are the impetus of one or two members carried through to everyone else. An idea extrapolated and elaborated so that each will do their bit, guided by the vision of the master planner, but one person is in control. Adding a bass-line, drum-fill or solo or a verse is a contribution nothing more - it is not the framework or the form, nor was it the seed or the germination of the idea to the end result. If we take something obvious, like Tales From Topographic Oceans, we can see that the team-effort is delineated and demarcated into who did what and why and where if we look and listen and pay attention (Anderson and Howe at the helm, Brufford White and Squire powering the engine and Wakeman piecing it all together). This is perhaps more collaborative than say Frank Zappa, but not by much. Zappa, (who was writer, composer and arranger -though not necessarily simultaneously), could present a piece fully formed and fully realised for the band to play, but when he simply directed his musicians to improvise, he was still in control, still the impetus, still the provider of ideas and structure. Even when telling the bass-player to play something in one meter and one key while telling the drummer to play in a different meter and the keyboardist to play in another key while he used his guitar to bind it all together, he was composing in real-time - arranging in real-time, and his name appears on the credits ("written, composed and arranged by Frank Zappa, unless otherwise noted"). David Bowie is another example of the same, he could not play the guitar like Ronson, Fripp, Alomar or Slick, nor could he ever have written what they eventually played so their contributions to "his" music are their own, yet they remain uniquely "Bowie" because he was the conduit that channelled the composition towards the goal. The skill of Zappa and Bowie is in the choices they made, the people they picked to realise the ideas that formed in their heads:
 
[tube]NjpZihqVY-g[/tube]
 
So to address the OP's question I would posit that even in the most team-like collaborations of Progressive Rock, one man did most of the thinking and directing, the rest were actors and players.
 
 


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 14:46
^ agree with every single word, except to pedantically point out that Bruford had naff all to do with Tales....he had a buggered Orf!

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In Lazland, life is transient. Prog is permanent.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 15:02

Doh! - White - I knew that! Embarrassed



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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 15:28
^ hey Dean, your post sounds like a direct/similar formation of how my beloved Nine Inch Nails team is run.
Anyway, well said. I appreciate this post.

-------------
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 04 2013 at 15:30
Originally posted by freyacat

I think of Mike Oldfield as an enlightening case in point. With Mike, you get the composer who writes every note on his albums, and then proceeds to play 99% of the instruments.

Mike Oldfield's albums from the 70's are true prog masterpieces, and yet, most of us would agree that they are less exciting than a Yes or King Crimson album. I would also argue that this lack of excitement stands apart from specific concerns about style or quality of music.

If Mike Oldfield had been humble enough to work within a band, to have his ideas checked against the ideas of other brilliant musicians, what amazing music might have resulted?


Nice. Well said.

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 05 2013 at 11:02
I read Dean's post last night and I agree with everything he said. Only a few albums spring to mind, where the music is conjured up outside of this mindset. Amon Düül ll's Yeti for instance, where everybody seems to be at the driving wheel at the same time. No real 'author' in play - no real 'director'. Democracy in full swing. To be fair, these albums are very rare - and perhaps even rarer done successfully.  

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 06 2013 at 05:58
Originally posted by progbethyname

^ hey Dean, your post sounds like a direct/similar formation of how my beloved Nine Inch Nails team is run.
Anyway, well said. I appreciate this post.
Sure, as are most "solo" efforts (hey, we all regard NIИ as Reznor and Reznor as NIИ whether we are ardent fans or casual observers) - even Oldfield picked guest musicians with care and off the top of my head I can't think of an Oldfield album that does not have guest musicians. Bowie and Zappa were merely extreme examples chosen to illustrate the point; Gabriel's solo albums with contributions from Fripp, Eno, Fast, Levin, Rhodes, etc remain solo albums not team-collaborations. Ayreon is Luccassen regardless of who he picks for his team, the same for Stolt, and Wilson.
 
On a band level I could cite Anderson in Tull, Waters in Floyd, Rutherford and Banks in Genesis, Fripp in Crimson, Froese in Tangerine Dream, Allen in Gong, Bellamy in Muse, Åkerfeldt in Opeth, Gildenlöw in PoS. Every band has key members who guide the band towards the end result but seldom do solo albums by those people ever result in something as good as they produced with the band.
 
So that's not to say that other members in those bands were not key in determining the sound of the band and their ultimate success - Floyd without Waters remained "Floyd", Floyd before Gilmour was still "Floyd", Floyd recorded albums with better keyboard players than Wright and with better drummers than Mason but they didn't produce better "Floyd" albums. The combination of all four together gave us something different that is generally accepted as being greater than the sum of the parts even when Waters was driving the bus; Waters can record solo albums with Beck or Clapton (who Gilmour has acknowledged as "better" guitarists by more than just false-modesty or mutual respect) but they are not "Floyd", something is missing - whether that is commitment, control/restraint, chemistry, understanding, connection, contribution - that is not determined by ability or prowess.


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: September 06 2013 at 06:56
Originally posted by freyacat

I think of Mike Oldfield as an enlightening case in point. With Mike, you get the composer who writes every note on his albums, and then proceeds to play 99% of the instruments.

Mike Oldfield's albums from the 70's are true prog masterpieces, and yet, most of us would agree that they are less exciting than a Yes or King Crimson album. I would also argue that this lack of excitement stands apart from specific concerns about style or quality of music.

If Mike Oldfield had been humble enough to work within a band, to have his ideas checked against the ideas of other brilliant musicians, what amazing music might have resulted?

 
Would have to disagree with this. Oldfield's 70's works did have contributors but not many and yes he was the main ingredient, up to Incantations at least and Amarok in 89'. These albums were by far more exciting than Crises, Islands, and say Heaven's Open. They were still good but not as exciting as Oldfield in the driving seat so with additional band members not quite as good. I would also defend that the guy never lacked excitement in his music nor would the music need to achieve ' amazing' status as it was already better than ' amazing'.


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Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 06 2013 at 14:33
IMO it is a joint effort in that some one in the band usually  brings an idea forward but in all the great prog bands the various members contribute their part to create the finished product. As some one mentioned above there are  very few solo works by 'leaders' that equal the quality of the band they came from. To me that says 'teamwork' even if one person came up with the original melody line, etc.
Would the song/idea sound as good and have the same impact without the input and playing of these specific band members?


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Et In Arcadia Ego


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: September 06 2013 at 23:03
Originally posted by dr wu23

IMO it is a joint effort in that some one in the band usually  brings an idea forward but in all the great prog bands the various members contribute their part to create the finished product. As some one mentioned above there are  very few solo works by 'leaders' that equal the quality of the band they came from. To me that says 'teamwork' even if one person came up with the original melody line, etc.
Would the song/idea sound as good and have the same impact without the input and playing of these specific band members?

This is why prog bands (or any genre of band) is usually an illustration of the "the total is greater than the sum of it's parts" concept.  The first example I recall hearing this applied to was The Beatles.  In the early 70's critics were falling all over themselves trying to figure out why John, Paul, George, & Ringo's solo work - though often first rate - just didn't have the magic of the fab four.  There's something that happens in the practice room between band members that just can't be duplicated by one guy telling everyone else what to do.  Frank Zappa is another classic example...there are many hardcore fans that still contend that his best work was with the original mothers when it was a real band, not just Frank with some hired hands (though I love both facets of his work)   


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Cirrusminor
Date Posted: September 08 2013 at 14:59
Progressive music is rather complex technically and requires very good technical skills to be played. We all know that one of the characteristics of prog music is to be mostly instrumental, regardless of the fact that it’s the keys, the guitar or the wind instruments to lead the dance; this adds to complexity and all band members must perform at their best to keep the sound going on. According to this logic, prog can’t be but a teamwork.
But I would like to understand better what trackstoni meant with his question. ‘Cause prog is a teamwork in songwriting and performing, but can be (and often is) a solo effort if you mean the inspiration, ideas, creativity, motivation and all what makes one’s personality transferred to music. There are many examples (think Yes without Anderson, Genesis without Gabriel, VDGG without Hammill, just to fish in the usual bunch).
Really a challenging question, I think, but one that helps to understand better what prog is, and what it’s not.


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Nous sommes du Soleil



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