Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics related to progressive music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=95323 Printed Date: March 19 2024 at 00:00 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Favourite PA Prog Sub-genrePosted By: The.Crimson.King
Subject: Favourite PA Prog Sub-genre
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 19:07
The 19 choices above are the prog subgenres that are recognized by the PA search engine (I excluded "Various Genres" as it's too vague). I'm curious to see which subgenre's are the favourites of PA members. As a shortcut to reading and comparing the definition of each subgenre on the PA search page, I included the top 3 ranked bands by album for each one so you can get a flavor of the typical bands PA identifies with each subgenre.
Canterbury Scene - Robert Wyatt, Caravan, Gong
Crossover Prog - Supertramp, Mike Oldfield, Steven Wilson
Eclectic Prog - King Crimson, Van Der Graaf Generator, Gentle Giant
Experimental/Post Metal - Tool, Devin Townsend, Maudlin of the Well
Heavy Prog - Rush, The Mars Volta, Porcupine Tree
Indo-Prog/Raga Rock - Andre Fertier's Clivage, Abstract Truth, Codona
Jazz Rock/Fusion - Miles Davis, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Billy Cobham
Krautrock - Ash Ra Tempel, Popul Vuh, Dom
Neo-Prog - T, Marillion, Arena
Post Rock/Math Rock - Sigur Ros, Russian Circles, Godspeed You Black Emporer
Prog Folk - Jethro Tull, Los Jaivas, Spirogyra
Progressive Electronic - Tangering Dream, Klaus Schulze, Edgar Froese
Progressive Metal - Dream Theater, Riverside, Pain of Salvation
Psychedelic/Space Rock - Pink Floyd, Eloy, Dashiell Hedayatt
RIO/Avant-Prog - Frank Zappa, Kayo Dot, Univers Zero
Rock Progressive Italiano - PFM. Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso, Area
Symphonic Prog - Yes, Genesis, Anglagard
Tech/Extreme Prog Metal - Opeth, Edge of Insanity, Death
Zeuhl - Magma, Dun, Eskaton
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Replies: Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 20:20
I have more than five favourites but limited my voting to that.
Heavy because of my three favorite bands RUSH, PT and ANEKDOTEN Zeuhl Canterbury
Jazz/Fusion
Krautrock
------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 20:22
1. Symphonic 2. Prog Folk 3. J/R Fusion
Voted all three.
------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
Posted By: Prog Sothoth
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 20:30
Love most of them, but I'll be the first to give Tech/Extreme Prog Metal and Psychedelic/Space Rock votes and leave it at that.
Posted By: Neo-Romantic
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 20:44
1. Eclectic
2. Symphonic
3. Metal
4. Tech/Extreme
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 20:49
I was hoping you would separate Math and Post :(
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 21:13
The.Crimson.King wrote:
This is a multiple choice poll, so vote for all your favourite PA subgenres...
It only lets you select one, so I checked Progressive Electronic.
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 21:22
Horizons wrote:
I was hoping you would separate Math and Post :(
I would appreciate an explanation of this: Exactly how do Math Rock and Post Rock differ and please use bands to exemplify each. (I know, Dean, that I could easily go to the sub-genre page but ... here we are!)
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 21:23
BrufordFreak wrote:
Horizons wrote:
I was hoping you would separate Math and Post :(
I would appreciate an explanation of this: Exactly how do Math Rock and Post Rock differ and please use bands to exemplify each. (I know, Dean, that I could easily go to the sub-genre page but ... here we are!)
P.S. Voted Zeuhl. I'm tired.
How about this: stylistically, what do they have in common?
a: basically nothing
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 22:00
25% of the voters prefering Krautrock? I sense either a bug, or a big scam.
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 22:11
CPicard wrote:
25% of the voters prefering Krautrock? I sense either a bug, or a big scam.
I'm ok with this
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 22:23
Couldn't choose between Zeuhl, Krautrock, and Prog Folk. I'm really just voting for the PA pages I can rely on for consistently good music.
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 22:39
BrufordFreak wrote:
Horizons wrote:
I was hoping you would separate Math and Post :(
I would appreciate an explanation of this: Exactly how do Math Rock and Post Rock differ and please use bands to exemplify each. (I know, Dean, that I could easily go to the sub-genre page but ... here we are!)
P.S. Voted Zeuhl. I'm tired.
Ok.
In the most general sense, Post-Rock is a lot of times more calm and deals with more crescendos, walls of sound, shoegazey sometimes and such.Bands that embody PR are Sigur Ros, Godspeed You!Black Emperor, Ef, Battlestations (just to name the most common and highest rated here).
Math Rock is a lot of times much more hectic, technically complex, and deals with time sig changes, tapping, and whatnot. The sound of MR can get pretty punky sounding sometimes as well as metal (PR too though). Bands like Don Caballero, Russian Circles, Lite, Giraffes?Giraffes! are again popular/high rated bands here.
Honestly they're complete opposites in my eyes. The similarities are that they are typically instrumental..
Just to compare the basic sound of each..
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 22:44
Also: Voted for my Top 2 - MR/PR and Heavy Prog.
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 23:02
------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 23:03
Symphonic
Canterbury
Eclectic
Prog Folk
Heavy prog
Psychedelic space prog
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: September 23 2013 at 23:26
Symph/Folk/Eclectic/Crossover...
-------------
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 00:04
CPicard wrote:
25% of the voters prefering Krautrock? I sense either a bug, or a big scam.
All fixed
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 00:20
Progressive Metal, symphonic prog, heavy prog, jazz rock/fusion
Posted By: antonyus
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 01:14
Symphonic Prog
Psychedelic space prog
Eclectic Prog
Krautrock
Progressive Electronic
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 01:30
The.Crimson.King wrote:
CPicard wrote:
25% of the voters prefering Krautrock? I sense either a bug, or a big scam.
All fixed
If you checked the 'Allow multiple votes' box it means people can vote multiple times for a single subgenre
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 02:56
I find it hard to choose between Eclectic and Symphonic, but I voted for Eclectic Prog today.
-------------
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 09:54
As ever when this comes up, Exp/Post Metal.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
Posted By: bloodnarfer
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 09:58
Eclectic
Well my favorite bands are pretty evenly distributed, but I think I have the most in eclectic
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 10:15
Atavachron wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
CPicard wrote:
25% of the voters prefering Krautrock? I sense either a bug, or a big scam.
All fixed
If you checked the 'Allow multiple votes' box it means people can vote multiple times for a single subgenre
BUT BRETHREN WHY
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 10:23
Polymorphia wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
CPicard wrote:
25% of the voters prefering Krautrock? I sense either a bug, or a big scam.
All fixed
If you checked the 'Allow multiple votes' box it means people can vote multiple times for a single subgenre
BUT BRETHREN WHY
Seems to me there's no multiple votes allowed - or was there to begin with?
I voted for Canterbury and then that was it.
Otherwise I would've given some love to:
Krautrock
RPI
Avant
Electronic
Eclectic
Zeuhl
Folk
Psych
Fusion
I don't really categorise music unless I have to communicate with peeps on this site though.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 10:42
My three favourites:
Symphonic (Camel, Genesis, Anglagard)
Neo-Prog (IQ, Pendragon, Marillion)
Prog Folk (Mostly Autumn, Horslips, Strawbs)
I loathe all the Rio/Avant, Zeuhl and Krautrock I've heard and Post/Math Rock and Tech/Extreme bore me to tears. Most of the rest are generally OK at the least.
------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 10:49
^ the feels ;(
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 10:55
Atavachron wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
CPicard wrote:
25% of the voters prefering Krautrock? I sense either a bug, or a big scam.
All fixed
If you checked the 'Allow multiple votes' box it means people can vote multiple times for a single subgenre
Ahh,,,,,,than I'll start voting multiple times for symphonic prog.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 11:33
I Hate Krautrock is a subgenre???
I haven't ever gone through my collection to label everything by PA subgenres but I think I have more titles under the crossover umbrella than anything else.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 11:52
Who doesn't hate sauerkraut rock
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 11:58
Guldbamsen wrote:
Polymorphia wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
CPicard wrote:
25% of the voters prefering Krautrock? I sense either a bug, or a big scam.
All fixed
If you checked the 'Allow multiple votes' box it means people can vote multiple times for a single subgenre
BUT BRETHREN WHY
Seems to me there's no multiple votes allowed - or was there to begin with?
I stopped running multiple choice polls weeks ago because a PA member can't resist the urge to multiple vote a single choice to the point of absurdity and ruin the integrity of the poll. Since then, I've only run single vote polls, but I thought this one would be more fun as a multiple...alas...someone has taken it upon themselves to once again ruin it for everyone else.
Whoever is ruining these multiple choice polls, why don't you come on out into the light and tell us why? Of course if you're too shy, you can always PM me.
The landslide victory for Krautrock was tweaked (apologies to the "real" Krautrock fans out there) and the poll converted to single vote only.
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 14:44
1. Prog Folk
2. Symphonic
3. Eclectic
4. Crossover
5. Psych/Space
6. RPI
7. Post/Math
8. Neo
9. JR/F
10. Heavy
11. Indo/Raga
12. RIO/Avant
13. Canterbury
14. Krautrock
15. Zeuhl
16. any kind of metal
17. Electronic
------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus
Posted By: Michael678
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 14:55
honestly it's actually between Symphonic Rock and Psychedelic/Space Rock for me, but i chose the former
Posted By: MFP
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 14:57
Ecletic
Canterbury Scene
Krautrock
Psychedelic/Space Rock
Posted By: RedNightmareKing
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 15:57
Psych/Space Experimental/Post-Metal Crossover
------------- I consider drone metal to be progressive...
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 16:22
Like all of them, pity the poll became silly with the " I hate Krautrock" option. The music is the same, people pigeon hole bands not the music
-------------
<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 16:32
I can't seem to get away from my Prog Metal, although I do listen to more and more different things, so much prog treasure out there in all sorts
Posted By: H. Siedler
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 17:29
1Symphonic
2Psychedelic/Space Rock
3Progmetal
4Heavy
Posted By: Xonty
Date Posted: September 25 2013 at 16:11
Symphonic Prog - has a bit of everything then eclectic, then canterbury scene
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: September 25 2013 at 17:08
I have a favourite band in almost every one of these, but it seems my favourite bands are all in the "Eclectic Prog" category so that gets my vote with "Symphonic Prog" coming in 2nd.
------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987
Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: September 25 2013 at 21:56
I give heavy prog the slight edge over symphonic prog.
Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: September 26 2013 at 07:28
It depends on my mood for the day - no vote.
------------- Welcome to the middle of the film.
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: September 26 2013 at 07:51
Totaly depends on the artist combined with my mood's, I belive i listen to a bit from every genre.
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: September 26 2013 at 11:13
Would be interesting if there were a simple view that showed the number of bands, albums and reviews per genre.
------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 26 2013 at 11:27
Hercules wrote:
My three favourites:
Symphonic (Camel, Genesis, Anglagard)
Neo-Prog (IQ, Pendragon, Marillion)
Prog Folk (Mostly Autumn, Horslips, Strawbs)
I loathe all the Rio/Avant, Zeuhl and Krautrock I've heard and Post/Math Rock and Tech/Extreme bore me to tears. Most of the rest are generally OK at the least.
Take the complete opposite of this post and you'll have my sentiments.
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 26 2013 at 11:30
Different strokes for different folks eh?
My dad loves ABBA
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: September 26 2013 at 11:52
Take the complete opposite of this post and you'll have my sentiments.
Posted By: Olape
Date Posted: September 26 2013 at 13:51
Eclectic RPI Symphonic Psychedelic/Space Rock Heavy Prog Crossover ...
However, I prefer some bands rather than an specific Sub-genre.
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 26 2013 at 14:09
hellogoodbye wrote:
Take the complete opposite of this post and you'll have my sentiments.
Brilliant
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: DanthraX
Date Posted: September 30 2013 at 18:52
Its a shame the poll got ruined. Anyhow it seems my favorite bands are in eclectic, symphonic and heavy sub genres. I have also lot of love for rpi, crossover and neo and finally really like some bands from space, canterbury, folk and metal. I'm still struggling to find something pleasent for my tastes in the rest of the genres, with the special exception of Tool which i love
------------- I look up, I'm almost blinded
by the warmth of what's inside me
and the taste that's in my soul,
but I'm dead inside as I stand alone...
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 15 2013 at 15:57
RIO/Avant easily followed by Zeuhl, Symphonic, Canterbury, Krautrock, Space & Folk
------------- Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: March 05 2014 at 14:39
I wonder why we can't do "Prog-Related" searches to find out the highest-rated "Prog-Related" albums? I wish this option were available.
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: March 05 2014 at 18:21
Not counting non-styles like "eclectic" (GG, VdGG and the first 3 KC albums are primarily symphonic). RPI is very distinct but it's a subgenre of symph:
Symphonic Canterbury Electronic Folk Avant Neo Space Metal
I considered avant above folk because there's more of it, but my favs of folk are so good. Same thing to a far lesser degree with space v. metal. I can't stand fusion anymore for the absolute most part, but still love RTF.
What's the deal with "I Hate Krautrock"? I far from hate it but when I get the hankering it only lasts about one song.
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: March 05 2014 at 18:25
King Crimson776 wrote:
What's the deal with "I Hate Krautrock"? I far from hate it but when I get the hankering it only lasts about one song.
OP was mad that Krautrock was beating his beloved symph prog so, being childish and a sore loser, he edited the poll to read "I Hate Krautrock"
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: March 05 2014 at 18:45
Ironically I think that is what put kraut in the lead this far into it. Suddenly you get people from both perspectives voting it after interpreting it differently.
Posted By: genbanks
Date Posted: March 05 2014 at 19:18
Symphonic
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 05 2014 at 20:38
Other: I can't choose.
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: March 05 2014 at 20:39
A bias decision
1 Symphonic 2. Eclectic 3. Heavy Prog
-------------
Posted By: Billy Pilgrim
Date Posted: March 06 2014 at 01:02
Experimental and Post metal, followed by Tech Extreme metal, and Eclectic.
Posted By: StaaViinsZ
Date Posted: March 06 2014 at 02:49
If you're asking which do I think is the funniest-- Maybe the fact that
there is actuallyTech/Extreme Prog Metal, or Krautrock or Rock
Progressivo Italiano. If you're asking which is my favorite genre-- Probably Progressive Metal or Heavy Prog, perhaps Neo-Prog, perhaps.
------------- "Let us scream like Tom Mallicoat, and whisper like Geoff Tate, for the difference between the two is nigh."
Posted By: proggman
Date Posted: March 06 2014 at 20:07
Symphonic Prog
------------- When he rides, my fears subside. For darkness turns once more to light. Through the skies, his white horse flies. To find a land beyond the night.
Posted By: Billy Pilgrim
Date Posted: March 06 2014 at 23:53
StaaViinsZ wrote:
If you're asking which do I think is the funniest-- Maybe the fact that
there is actuallyTech/Extreme Prog Metal, or Krautrock or Rock
Progressivo Italiano. If you're asking which is my favorite genre-- Probably Progressive Metal or Heavy Prog, perhaps Neo-Prog, perhaps.
Obviously the question isn't asking what you find the funniest.. although, why do you find it funny?
Posted By: StaaViinsZ
Date Posted: March 07 2014 at 02:43
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
Obviously the question isn't asking what you find the funniest.. although, why do you find it funny?
I don't know, it just seems funny to me that the same people that would make Extreme Metal would make prog, too. It's just kinda like, you hear "Prog Extreme Metal" and you're just like "What? How is that even possible?" As for Krautrock or Progressivo Italiano, those just sound kinda strange to me. Made from my Kyocera Rise
------------- "Let us scream like Tom Mallicoat, and whisper like Geoff Tate, for the difference between the two is nigh."
Posted By: HemispheresOfXanadu
Date Posted: March 07 2014 at 07:54
(Not sure why I never voted on this poll yet.)
I guess it's kinda official. Tech/extreme prog metal for me.
How could I get through the day without...
Though I could also say I couldn't live without classic 70's stuff.
------------- https://twitter.com/ProgFollower" rel="nofollow - @ProgFollower on Twitter. Tweet me muzak.
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 00:58
Neo is the only SG that I don't enjoy any of the bands that I have heard. I tend to enjoy mostly "inaccessible" and dark sounds. So RIO got the vote.
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 12:44
proggman wrote:
Symphonic Prog
yep
and it's interesting that on the 'least favorite sub genre' poll so many voted against symph when it's clearly a favorite genre here..
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 13:00
dr wu23 wrote:
and it's interesting that on the 'least favorite sub genre' poll so many voted against symph when it's clearly a favorite genre here..
Is it?
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 13:07
Triceratopsoil wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
and it's interesting that on the 'least favorite sub genre' poll so many voted against symph when it's clearly a favorite genre here..
Is it?
Hmm........let's see , 29 votes above for it ....you're right it's hated by most.
Krautrock is surely the fave with 28 against.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 13:15
Symphonic music just began to bore me after a while. I still listen to Foxtrot and Trespass every so often, because i love those albums. But besides them, I don't think i listen to anything else offered by the genre. Closest thing i own is The Tangent.
I've been starting to think it's the keyboards..
*shrug*
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 13:35
I really like Yes. I try to take a dip into Genesis and Camel every now and then but they still bore me. I find the rest that I've heard rather atrocious. The other subs (minus prog metal and neo) always seem to offer some consistently good finds for me, to varying degrees.
I still don't understand the theory that people are intentionally voting against their favorite sub. There seems to be the assumption that the same people voting for symph are now voting against it because %16.20 of the voters voted for it here. It isn't a majority vote by any means. That %83.80 that voted for other subgenres seems to be more likely, both logically and numerically, to have voted against it in the knockout poll.
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 13:38
Horizons wrote:
Symphonic music just began to bore me after a while. I still listen to Foxtrot and Trespass every so often, because i love those albums. But besides them, I don't think i listen to anything else offered by the genre. Closest thing i own is The Tangent.
I've been starting to think it's the keyboards..
*shrug*
It's the reluctance for artists to deviate at all from their formulas... which is a comfort to the type of listeners those albums have.
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 14:06
1. Symphonic
2. Rococo progressivo Italiano
3. Canterbury
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 16:28
Triceratopsoil wrote:
Horizons wrote:
Symphonic music just began to bore me after a while. I still listen to Foxtrot and Trespass every so often, because i love those albums. But besides them, I don't think i listen to anything else offered by the genre. Closest thing i own is The Tangent.
I've been starting to think it's the keyboards..
*shrug*
It's the reluctance for artists to deviate at all from their formulas... which is a comfort to the type of listeners those albums have.
I don't have a problem with formulas. I just have a problem with formulas I don't like.