Print Page | Close Window

Thoughts on Band Camp (bandcamp)

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Discription: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=95812
Printed Date: September 14 2014 at 23:10
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.69 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Thoughts on Band Camp (bandcamp)
Posted By: RyanElliott
Subject: Thoughts on Band Camp (bandcamp)
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 14:18

Hello Prog Archives, 

I was wondering about people's thoughts on Band Camp. Similarly to myself, I imagine many here stand as advocates of physical music. But since Digital music and streaming is flourishing more than ever before, I am curious about what services that are out there that allow artists to see more income out of it. 

I have written this recent article in my blog about Band Camp being a digital service that is moving digital music forward, making music sales digitally more beneficial for the artist as well as the fans. 

Here it is,  http://ryanelliottblog.com/2013/11/05/bandcamp-sending-the-digital-format-in-the-right-direction/" rel="nofollow - http://ryanelliottblog.com/2013/11/05/bandcamp-sending-the-digital-format-in-the-right-direction/

How many artists here use Band Camp? How many fans use it to download music? I'll be interested to see the results.

Many thanks! 



Replies:
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 14:38
Anyone that doesn't use bandcamp is insane. There's so much great music to experience by bands that no one has ever heard of.

-------------
http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/

wtf


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 15:09
Absolutely love love love bandcamp.

-------------


Posted By: TheGreatSopko
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 17:26
I love bandcamp! It gives my band their own website and lets us sell our music on there site without a monthly charge. They will take some out of each purchase of the song but its better than paying iTunes $90 and get less than half out of every purchase. Plus i can customize my page and it can show up on the bandcamp homepage if enough people buy our music! Plus its the best possible way to get our music out without a record deal.  

Check us out: (we play prog rock!)
http://kingsawakening.bandcamp.com/track/now-then-and-back-again" rel="nofollow - http://kingsawakening.bandcamp.com
http://www.youtube.com/kingsawakening" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/kingsawakening
http://www.facebook.com/KingsAwakening



-------------
Watch as Kings Awakening revives Progressive Rock : http://www.youtube.com/KingsAwakening
http://www.facebook.com/KingsAwakening


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 18:27
Some of my yearly Top 10 albums come from this amazing website. Great website. Anyone who hasn't tried to use it, I suggest devoting an hour or two and end up with a dozen albums or bands you're in love with.



-------------


Posted By: RyanElliott
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 18:31
Originally posted by TheGreatSopko

I love bandcamp! It gives my band their own website and lets us sell our music on there site without a monthly charge. They will take some out of each purchase of the song but its better than paying iTunes $90 and get less than half out of every purchase. Plus i can customize my page and it can show up on the bandcamp homepage if enough people buy our music! Plus its the best possible way to get our music out without a record deal.  


That's great to see you utilising it so well! A question I however may wish to ask is how to do you encourage your fans to pay via bandcamp instead of somewhere else, say Itunes? Writing the aforementioned blog on my part my help but any ideas on how to promote your music via that page more effectively?



Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 18:37
Originally posted by RyanElliott

Originally posted by TheGreatSopko

I love bandcamp! It gives my band their own website and lets us sell our music on there site without a monthly charge. They will take some out of each purchase of the song but its better than paying iTunes $90 and get less than half out of every purchase. Plus i can customize my page and it can show up on the bandcamp homepage if enough people buy our music! Plus its the best possible way to get our music out without a record deal.  


That's great to see you utilising it so well! A question I however may wish to ask is how to do you encourage your fans to pay via bandcamp instead of somewhere else, say Itunes? Writing the aforementioned blog on my part my help but any ideas on how to promote your music via that page more effectively?



For me, the main selling point is FLAC.


-------------


Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 18:47
I use bandcamp and many artists I admire and/or artists I know use it, too. I think it's incredible. I'm able to put all my stuff in one place, organize it, and in the future, sell it. I'm sure I wouldn't be able to get the amount of success I have (which isn't very much, but i digress) if all I had was, like, Mediafire and the like.


-------------
http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">
The greatest record label of all time!


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 18:51
It's a good service. Always a plus to have band sanctioned samples to listen to (If not whole albums). Certainly can't replace physical media, but it's probably the best alternative to it out there.

-------------
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 19:20
But artists can sell physical copies over Bandcamp if they have them


-------------
http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">
The greatest record label of all time!


Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 19:46
Originally posted by RyanElliott

Originally posted by TheGreatSopko

I love bandcamp! It gives my band their own website and lets us sell our music on there site without a monthly charge. They will take some out of each purchase of the song but its better than paying iTunes $90 and get less than half out of every purchase. Plus i can customize my page and it can show up on the bandcamp homepage if enough people buy our music! Plus its the best possible way to get our music out without a record deal.  


That's great to see you utilising it so well! A question I however may wish to ask is how to do you encourage your fans to pay via bandcamp instead of somewhere else, say Itunes? Writing the aforementioned blog on my part my help but any ideas on how to promote your music via that page more effectively?


I don't know how to promote more effectively on bandcamp unless you already have fans and you use particular tags and you become the top seller in extremely common tags. This is kind of the beauty of bandcamp as it forces you to advertise elsewhere.




-------------
http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/

wtf


Posted By: stegor
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 19:48
We use Bandcamp to share our music with the world for free. Not because it has no value but because we are well aware that it has limited appeal to a select few. We don't know who they are so it's available to everyone. Funny thing is somehow someone out there downloaded it and distributed it to numerous download sites around the world, mostly in Russia by the looks of it. A couple of them are charging for the downloads which I find humorous because it's available for free on about a dozen websites thanks to the pirates. So yes, in a way we're being ripped off but I seriously doubt any real money is being made with our http://limpidgreen.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - esoteric musings .

I don't really promote it because I don't think that works. People have a completely different reaction to music when their attention is alerted to it via solicitation than when they find it on their own. Instead I try to put subtle hints http://limpidgreen.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - here and http://limpidgreen.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - there .

I really like the stats they give you. You can see where your traffic is coming from. I'm really pleased to see how much of it comes from progarchives.com.


Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 21:34
I luvs da bandcamp.
I purchase CDs from there whenever available.
However I never purchase digital.  I needs my seedeez!


-------------
Frank Swarbrick
--
Belief is not Truth.


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 21:36
If every artist I cared about had a bandcamp, I would never buy a CD again.

-------------


Posted By: stegor
Date Posted: November 05 2013 at 23:39
Ryan - I just read the blog you linked here - very good. I've never seen that nifty "Modern Recording" illustration, despite its viral status. I know it's a popular opinion but personally I think it's a misconception. There was true audiophile equipment back in the day, but nobody I knew had it. It was astronomically expensive.

Really smart scientists tried to silence tape hiss with Dolby A B and C, followed by DBX 1 and DBX 2, none of which were compatible with each other and all of which sucked the life out of any good recording. For the most part I had crappy cheap stereos with rumbly turntables tethered to cassette decks with misaligned heads. I remember listening to tapes in my car, wedging a comb under the tape forcing it to align with the head. If I was lucky it would play all the way through without getting eaten. There's precision for ya. So anyone honest coming from that world will tell you that a 256kbps mp3 played through decent mid-priced headphones, even cheap headphones, sounds a hell of a lot better than that.

Back to the topic of Bandcamp - I gave my opinion of it as a DIY artist. I can't really say much about it as a listener. I was blessed to be born in 1960, so my age of discovery landed in the heyday of Prog. If I was in my early teens now I can only imagine what it would be like to have the discovery tools at my fingertips. I'd probably be searching every corner of Bandcamp for mysterious treasures. In the '70's we had some late night TV and radio shows and a few magazines and the Prog they presented was sparsely dispersed along with Helen Reddy and The Carpenters.


Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: November 06 2013 at 00:04
Bandcamp is a godsend, in the most secular sense of the word

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/TullDerGraff" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: November 06 2013 at 04:44
I don't really aim to make money from my recordings, though it's awful swell when someone pays a little money for the download. It's a good place to finalise the finished product, I find. 

-------------

http://superdensecrushloadfactor.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - Superdensecrushloadfactor


Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: November 06 2013 at 22:11
Originally posted by Padraic

If every artist I cared about had a bandcamp, I would never buy a CD again.
If every artist I card about had a bandcamp, I'd buy all of their CDs from bandcamp!


-------------
Frank Swarbrick
--
Belief is not Truth.


Posted By: Terra Australis
Date Posted: November 07 2013 at 05:42
Bandcamp is great. I love the way they leave it up to you and don't pester you about anything, like reverberation does. You get to decide how much to charge and it's easy to embed their player on your web site! 

-------------
Allomerus. Music with progressive intent.
http://allomerus.com" rel="nofollow - http://allomerus.com


Posted By: Hamlet Transportinae
Date Posted: November 07 2013 at 06:11
I spent about 5 hours fishing for overlooked pearls on bandcamp just yesterday, ended up finding 3 albums that I really liked and had a good laugh on insane amount of pure trash that is up there, too. I really love the conception of this website, as it is very easy to find something interesting, the streaming is decent and distribution options are really impressive. Plus, and that's very important it gives enough options to customize visual appearance. What else would I want really? A contrary, I really don't like reverbnation for its constant annoying offers for paid promotion which is completely useless for an artist and only serves the purpose of filling the pocket of Reverbnation's owners.
In general, I think we live in the golden age of music: if you have time and enough in your mind and in your hands you can create or find any music, regardless of what guys with big bellies in their offices want to sell you.


Posted By: RyanElliott
Date Posted: November 07 2013 at 06:31
I completely agree with those who've mentioned Reverbnation, it's just a nightmare from an Artist's point of view, it's layout isn't that great either. 

Thank you to everyone for sharing their thoughts, it's helped me find out how people use it and I'll consider this when setting up Eden Shadow's debut album on there. 

Nice to see so many on prog archives making the most of it.




Posted By: RyanElliott
Date Posted: November 07 2013 at 06:45
Originally posted by stegor

Ryan - I just read the blog you linked here - very good. I've never seen that nifty "Modern Recording" illustration, despite its viral status. I know it's a popular opinion but personally I think it's a misconception. There was true audiophile equipment back in the day, but nobody I knew had it. It was astronomically expensive.

Really smart scientists tried to silence tape hiss with Dolby A B and C, followed by DBX 1 and DBX 2, none of which were compatible with each other and all of which sucked the life out of any good recording. For the most part I had crappy cheap stereos with rumbly turntables tethered to cassette decks with misaligned heads. I remember listening to tapes in my car, wedging a comb under the tape forcing it to align with the head. If I was lucky it would play all the way through without getting eaten. There's precision for ya. So anyone honest coming from that world will tell you that a 256kbps mp3 played through decent mid-priced headphones, even cheap headphones, sounds a hell of a lot better than that.

Back to the topic of Bandcamp - I gave my opinion of it as a DIY artist. I can't really say much about it as a listener. I was blessed to be born in 1960, so my age of discovery landed in the heyday of Prog. If I was in my early teens now I can only imagine what it would be like to have the discovery tools at my fingertips. I'd probably be searching every corner of Bandcamp for mysterious treasures. In the '70's we had some late night TV and radio shows and a few magazines and the Prog they presented was sparsely dispersed along with Helen Reddy and The Carpenters.

Thank you, glad you enjoyed the blog.

I was unaware of most of that, I've certainly learnt something new. Not to say things haven't improved, I think what the image mainly outlines is the woe of artists and producers who put so much into a quality recording for it to be reduced very low. It helped me illustrate my point about BandCamp allowing other levels of quality to be realised. 

It is a really extraordinary time for music discovery, I have just come out of my teens and the platforms out there are incredible. It's a fantastic time to be an artist too in many ways. The rules have been done away with and artists can now directly engage with their fan base, again something which BandCamp encourages. 




Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: November 07 2013 at 13:31
Originally posted by infocat


Originally posted by Padraic

If every artist I cared about had a bandcamp, I would never buy a CD again.

If every artist I card about had a bandcamp, I'd buy all of their CDs from bandcamp!


Yup. Me too. Love my lossless audio quality that CDs have. Also, I like having a physical copy of all my music.
My personal hardware. :)

-------------
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 07 2013 at 14:25
Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by infocat


Originally posted by Padraic

If every artist I cared about had a bandcamp, I would never buy a CD again.

If every artist I card about had a bandcamp, I'd buy all of their CDs from bandcamp!


Yup. Me too. Love my lossless audio quality that CDs have. Also, I like having a physical copy of all my music.
My personal hardware. :)

FLAC is lossless.  But they (FLAC files) obviously don't meet your second criterion.


-------------


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: November 07 2013 at 14:34
Originally posted by Padraic



Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by infocat


Originally posted by Padraic

If every artist I cared about had a bandcamp, I would never buy a CD again.

If every artist I card about had a bandcamp, I'd buy all of their CDs from bandcamp!


Yup. Me too. Love my lossless audio quality that CDs have. Also, I like having a physical copy of all my music.
My personal hardware. :)

FLAC is lossless.  But they (FLAC files) obviously don't meet your second criterion.



FLAC files are absolutely great, but yeah I like to take in the artwork, read some liner notes and feel good that I got a hard copy before I throw the album on in my iTunes. :)
I love having the physical library and seeing the stack of CDs of all my favorites. It's a great feeling and it represents a timeline for me. ;)

-------------
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: proggman
Date Posted: November 07 2013 at 19:47
I like Bandcamp but I prefer CD's.

-------------
Who are these men of lust, greed, and glory? Rip off the masks and let's see.
But that's not right - oh no, what's the story? There's you and there's me.
That can't be right.


Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 07 2013 at 19:52
Originally posted by proggman

I like Bandcamp but I prefer CD's.

Why does no one understand
YOU CAN SELL CDS THRU BANDCAMP



-------------
http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">
The greatest record label of all time!


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 07 2013 at 22:48
Originally posted by smartpatrol

Originally posted by proggman

I like Bandcamp but I prefer CD's.

Why does no one understand
YOU CAN SELL CDS THRU BANDCAMP



Preach on brother.  Cool


-------------


Posted By: The Mystical
Date Posted: November 09 2013 at 02:35
I love bandcamp. It is full of great artists and has a neat and easy to use layout.

-------------
I am currently digging:

Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz!

Please drop me a message with album suggestions.


Posted By: faraone
Date Posted: November 09 2013 at 06:44
MELLOW RECORDS BANDCAMP

http://mellowrecords.bandcamp.com/


Enjoy!

P.S. We'll add 3/4 albums a day, our plan is to upload around 300 albums and almost all the OOP titles.

Thanks

Mauro Moroni
Mellow Records President
www.mellowrecords.com
http://www.facebook.com/mellowrecord
http://rateyourmusic.com/~Faraone
http://mellowrecords.bandcamp.com/


Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: November 09 2013 at 12:36
Originally posted by faraone

MELLOW RECORDS BANDCAMP

http://mellowrecords.bandcamp.com/


Enjoy!

P.S. We'll add 3/4 albums a day, our plan is to upload around 300 albums and almost all the OOP titles.

Thanks

Mauro Moroni
Mellow Records President
www.mellowrecords.com
http://www.facebook.com/mellowrecord
http://rateyourmusic.com/~Faraone
http://mellowrecords.bandcamp.com/
Wow!!!StarStarStar

-------------
Frank Swarbrick
--
Belief is not Truth.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 12 2013 at 17:39
Bandcamp is a record label, it is a different kind of record label than the old skool mega-corporations but a record label none the less.
Do not be fooled into thinking it is something different or something new, or that it is there for the benefit of the artist or the punters listeners.
 
Its purpose is to make money for owners of Bandcamp, just as EMI's purpose is to make money for EMI's owners and Sony's purpose is to make money for Sony's owners - the business model is exactly the same: they charge the artists on their roster a percentage commission for every track sold - the payment method looks different, but it is exactly the same - sell one item, the band gets a percentage and the label gets a percentage - done deal.
 
The difference is Bandcamp does not finance the artist to make the recordings or manufacture the product, the artist has to pay all that themselves. This means that all the best selling artists no longer have to pay for all the poor selling artists, it means that albums like Tubular Bells and Rubicon would never have paid for those Hatfield & The North, Slapp Happy and Tom Newman albums to be recorded. Genesis would never have survived passed Trespass without Lindisfarne and The Nice selling a tidy few albums to keep the record label going in those lean early years of Genesis. It means that if you can sell you get a bigger cut and if you don't sell it's all your fault.
 
This is a really clever business plan that I would imagine the big labels are kicking themselves for not thinking of first. The catch is they would never have gotten away with it because we distrust "the men in suits" and we would have gone into the deal with our eyes open:
"So, you pay for the recording, all the studio time, production, engineering and mastering, you then pay for the artwork design and the manufacture of the product. You then put it on our website, go out and do all the promotion and publicity for it all by yourself and when you sell some you have to parcel them up and post them to the customer one at a tiime and any sales you manage to make we take all the money and give you a percentage... no, sorry, that's not right... we *collect* all the money on your behalf and you pay us a *small, teeny-tiny, itsty-bitsy* percentage, no really it's really small, no more than 10%, promise, well maybe 15%, but that's sooo small compared to your 85% and you're going to sell millions boy, trust me, I know what I'm talking about because we've got Amanda Palmer and Pelican and they sell loads right? so give us your album for free, we'll do nothing with it and you can pay us for every one you manage to sell, 'cos you know, it could be made into a monster if we all pull together as a team..."
Every band on this planet would have run a mile if Virgin or Island records came at them with a recording contract like that. Even the stupid ones.
 
Yet somehow this has become regarded as the great "good thing", and for all those artists who in a million years would have never been signed to even a minor label back in the day then this certainly is "a good thing" because they can now reach a possible market for their music. The same market that buys all those Amanda Palmer and Pelican tracks...
 
Ah, but that's where I'm wrong you see, this isn't a virtual record label, it's a community, a nice friendly community of like-minded musicians that has built this great and marvellous and f*cking wonderful Musical Utopia of Tomorrow where everyone really is equal, even Pelican and Amanda Palmer. Right?
 
And there is the problem with this: the big boys have moved in. The physical record labels are using Bandcamp and the signed artists are using Bandcamp. Pelican have not stuck it to the man, they are signed to a physical record label that pays for their albums to be recorded, and finances the production and manufacture of their CDs, and funds all the advertising, street teams and promotion, they send out the review copies to the magazines and ezines and blogs, and they stick the album on Bandcamp for streaming alongside the album by a 14-year-old who makes funny noises in his bedroom on an iPad and thinks he can sell as many copies as Pelican because this is the Musical Utopia of Tomorrow where everyone is equal and all can sell their creations all over the world and it is great and marvellous and f*cking wonderful. And by some strange co-incidence Pelican sell truck loads of tracks and the 14-year old sells one, (...to himself because he wanted to see if the "Buy" button worked). And all this is egalitarian and wonderful because the kid has his album listed alongside Forever Becoming and that would never have happened in the old days. Never-mind that this kid will never sell a second track, let alone a whole album's worth, that's not the point, the point is he can do it and from his bedroom in the 'burbs of Backwater, Connecticut, he can reach out across the globe and be ignored by millions of Bandcamp users. And once the big boys start making serious money for the owners of Bandcamp then it will get really interesting... just not for the little guys.
 
 
Bought (into) that?
 
 
Good.
 
 
Now, I've got a tanker full of snake oil you might be interested in...


-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 12 2013 at 18:46
I wish I had the time to respond to this.

I guess I'd like to know how bandcamp compares to labels we know and love here, such as Cuneiform, Altr0ck, and Soleil Zeuhl as far as the better deal for the artist.

What draws me to it is the access to high quality downloads, and not really any other considerations.  By this I mean I love the distribution mechanism.

Interesting discussion you've started Dean.


-------------


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 06:25
Originally posted by Padraic

I wish I had the time to respond to this.

I guess I'd like to know how bandcamp compares to labels we know and love here, such as Cuneiform, Altr0ck, and Soleil Zeuhl as far as the better deal for the artist.
That depends upon expectations and what you want from a label. Those labels are narrowband specialists labels, (just like Island, Charisma, Virgin, Harvest, Vertigo, Brain, Deram also fitted that description), you go to them and you know what to expect (to a degree). Bandcamp is broadband non-specialist, it is more like Sony or iTunes, and that's cool too, because you can still find specialist music on the broadband labels, it's just a little more difficult even with cloud tagging.

Originally posted by Padraic


What draws me to it is the access to high quality downloads, and not really any other considerations.  By this I mean I love the distribution mechanism.
I'm not that bothered. 99.999% of the time I cannot tell the difference between 192kbps mp3 and FLAC (or raw Red-book CD), not just audibly but on some tracks not even electrically (convert wav to mp3 and back again, subtract the two wav's, whatever remains are the "losses" of mp3 conversion). Anything over 160kbps and I'm happy, but then 128kbps isn't exactly horrible, unless you were actually told it was 128Kbps very few people (if any) could honestly tell the difference reliably and repeatably to make it such the big issue that many make it out to be. I am more interested in the music being mixed and mastered to a quality and professionalism that is acceptable to my ears than I am over file-formats, a poorly recorded, over-compressed mix is crap in FLAC and mp3.


-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 06:48
Bandcamp is just one of many resources for me, it's useful in that you can listen to full tracks. I only tend to buy from bandcamp if I can't get the CD or the CD is significantly more expensive that the download.

-------------
Ian

Anyone who thinks Kansas is Prog get out of the room - Adolf Hitler



Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 07:33
Dean :"It means that albums like Tubular Bells and Rubicon would never have paid for those Hatfield & The North, Slapp Happy and Tom Newman albums to be recorded. Genesis would never have survived passed Trespass without Lindisfarne and The Nice selling a tidy few albums to keep the record label going in those lean early years of Genesis. It means that if you can sell you get a bigger cut and if you don't sell it's all your fault."
 
I totaly agree with the fact that BC is a record label, and they are only in it for the money.
But Im afraid most of those albums, would not have been able to make any record deals in 2013 anyway.
Things was very diffrent back then, compared to now, bandcamp or no bandcamp.
 
What makes bandcamp possible, is the fact, that with todays tech., anyone can make a record, with a resonable sound, within a resonable budget, if you compare to the money, you would have to come up with back in 73, to make an album, with a relatively ok sound.
So today what you need is not (as much) a recording studio, its access to the marked. Back in the day the record compagnies got that via the record shop's and radio, today a lot more is about getting the word out on the net, and getting likes on facebook, getting played a billion times on youtube ect..
So now any band can dream about making a recording, put it on bandcamp/youtube, and get luckey.
Without havin a big record compagny in the back.
Its offcourse only a dream 99,99999% of the time, but the dream may often seem more real, that sending a demo tape to 25 established labels, and hope someone will put it in the machine, and belives its the next big thing.
 
 
 


-------------
My Music: www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com
My blog: www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 07:46
Originally posted by tamijo

"It means that albums like Tubular Bells and Rubicon would never have paid for those Hatfield & The North, Slapp Happy and Tom Newman albums to be recorded. Genesis would never have survived passed Trespass without Lindisfarne and The Nice selling a tidy few albums to keep the record label going in those lean early years of Genesis. It means that if you can sell you get a bigger cut and if you don't sell it's all your fault."
 
Im afraid most of those albums would not have been able to make any record deals in 2013 anyway.
Things was very diffrent back then, compared to now, bandcamp or no bandcamp.
 
 
I disagree. Rather strongly in fact. Independent specialist labels will always produced that kind of music regardless. Now is no different to then in that respect. Island, Charisma, Cuneiform and Musea were/are specialist labels - they had/have a niche market with a niche product. Nothing has changed, people still want that niche product that they cannot get from the major labels/

The difference in what we have now with bandcamp are all the bands and artist that could never get a record deal then or now. That has nothing to do with what they create or the type of music they make.

We need to get our collective heads out of our collective backsides and stop seeing "record labels" as evil mega-corporations, stop berating the major labels (which quite frankly never concerned us anyway, (except perhaps EMI and Philips for a brief period in history), and we need to stop comparing "our music" with mainstream pop, rock and metal. 






-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 09:20
Of course that Bandcamp make a hard cash on their smart way.
Otherwise, the company is gonna be disappeared from the market. But that Idea is a leftist and (or) progressive idea, and that's great.
Bandcamp made that new prog revolution possible. New highway for Progressive Rock - far away from old fashioned records companies bourgeoisie - is open now. That's the essential.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 09:36
That's bollocks. Wink

-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 10:25
Originally posted by Svetonio

Of course that Bandcamp make a hard cash on their smart way.
Otherwise, the company is gonna be disappeared from the market. But that Idea is a leftist and (or) progressive idea, and that's great.
Bandcamp made that new prog revolution possible. New highway for Progressive Rock - far away from old fashioned records companies bourgeoisie - is open now. That's the essential.
That's not bandcamp, that's the internet in general.

-------------
Ian

Anyone who thinks Kansas is Prog get out of the room - Adolf Hitler



Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 11:09
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad

Originally posted by Svetonio

Of course that Bandcamp make a hard cash on their smart way.
Otherwise, the company is gonna be disappeared from the market. But that Idea is a leftist and (or) progressive idea, and that's great.
Bandcamp made that new prog revolution possible. New highway for Progressive Rock - far away from old fashioned records companies bourgeoisie - is open now. That's the essential.
That's not bandcamp, that's the internet in general.
Internet is the ghost from the bottle. And you know that, when that ghost is free, as it is since (effectively) 90s aswell, it have / could take any form. One of its forms is Bandcamp.
Actually, the story about Bandcamp is basicly a sociological story / phenomenon / perspective, so evidently related to approved in the real life and consequently timeless Marxism's strand of [  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism  ]  Dialectical materialism developed by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels.
 
 
 
 
 
 
" 1. The determination of the concept out of itself (the thing itself must be concered in its relations and its delvopment)
2. The contradictory nature of the thing (the other of itself), the contradiction forces and tendencies in each phenomenon
3. The union of analysis and synthesis
Such apparantly are the elements of dialectic  "
 
Lenin, Sumary of dialectic
 


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 11:49
Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad

Originally posted by Svetonio

Of course that Bandcamp make a hard cash on their smart way.
Otherwise, the company is gonna be disappeared from the market. But that Idea is a leftist and (or) progressive idea, and that's great.
Bandcamp made that new prog revolution possible. New highway for Progressive Rock - far away from old fashioned records companies bourgeoisie - is open now. That's the essential.
That's not bandcamp, that's the internet in general.
Internet is the ghost from the bottle. And you know that, when that ghost is free, as it is since (effectively) 90s aswell, it have / could take any form. One of its forms is Bandcamp.
Actually, the story about Bandcamp is basicly a sociological story / perspective, so evidently related to approved in the real life and consequently timeless Marxism's strand of [  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism" rel="nofollow -

And that most certainly is a load of old boll@@ks


-------------


In Lazland, life is transient. Prog is permanent.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 11:57
LOL You're not wrong there Steve LOL
 
 
One day people will wake up and smell the starbucks.


-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 12:16
Originally posted by lazland

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad

Originally posted by Svetonio

Of course that Bandcamp make a hard cash on their smart way.
Otherwise, the company is gonna be disappeared from the market. But that Idea is a leftist and (or) progressive idea, and that's great.
Bandcamp made that new prog revolution possible. New highway for Progressive Rock - far away from old fashioned records companies bourgeoisie - is open now. That's the essential.
That's not bandcamp, that's the internet in general.
Internet is the ghost from the bottle. And you know that, when that ghost is free, as it is since (effectively) 90s aswell, it have / could take any form. One of its forms is Bandcamp.
Actually, the story about Bandcamp is basicly a sociological story / perspective, so evidently related to approved in the real life and consequently timeless Marxism's strand of [  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism  ]  Dialectical materialism developed by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels.
 
 
 

And that most certainly is a load of old boll@@ks
LOL "old boll@@ks" that the millions of young intelectuals around the globe read Marx' Capital right now ?!
In fact, they know that the capitalism is came to the wall. So, they will find way to the new renaissance, or the world will return in barbarism - an indications for that is, for example, that the millions of people believe that Kardashians are the real people.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 12:23
Originally posted by Svetonio

- an indications for that is, for example, that the millions of people believe that Kardashians are the real people.
 
 


-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 12:32
Originally posted by Dean

LOL You're not wrong there Steve LOL
 
 
One day people will wake up and smell the starbucks.
I growed up in that legendary Marshal Tito's self-management socialism ( where, for example, the communist party was giving all support to the progrock bands to make their music almost 100% free of "market claims" ), and I'v been learned about all these things in school.


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 12:38
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Svetonio

- an indications for that is, for example, that the millions of people believe that Kardashians are the real people.
 
 
LOL but not Cardassians, Kardashians..as same as the millions also think that the real people are "world leaders" too, and similiar freaks from big media made in the laboratories of neoliberal capitalism - which is actually over and it is in free fall now.


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 12:47
Back to topic

-------------


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 13:00
Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Dean

LOL You're not wrong there Steve LOL
 
 
One day people will wake up and smell the starbucks.
I growed up in that legendary Marshal Tito's self-management socialism ( where, for example, the communist party was giving all support to the progrock bands to make their music almost 100% free of "market claims" ), and I'v been learned about all these things in school.
Then you should be able to recognise how wrong you are. There is nothing remotely lefty/socialist about the internet or anything on it, and that includes Bandcamp. It is not an egalitarian and nor is an Untopian idyll, once commerce gets involved all idealism evaporates, the popular artists get more popular at the expense of the lesser know and also-rans, this is as inevitable as the sun rising every morning and setting every evening. Even in the brief history of the Internet we can predict this will happen because there isn't a single enterprise or endeavour that has been launched onto the world wide web that hasn't followed this path. Because the internet (and all that is in it) is a global phenomenon it means that single powerful "clusters" rapidly dominate, so control of that cluster reduces to the few rather than the many. Bandcamp is a prime example of that, there is only one prefered music hosting site - ReverbNation and SoundCloud have lost the race, (see here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91557" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91557 ), Napster, mp3.com and all the other "one-clicks" are no where to be seen - that is not the result of communism or socialism or left-wing ideology, that is survival of the fitest, that is "only one can survive".

-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 13 2013 at 13:12
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Dean

LOL You're not wrong there Steve LOL
 
 
One day people will wake up and smell the starbucks.
I growed up in that legendary Marshal Tito's self-management socialism ( where, for example, the communist party was giving all support to the progrock bands to make their music almost 100% free of "market claims" ), and I'v been learned about all these things in school.
Then you should be able to recognise how wrong you are. There is nothing remotely lefty/socialist about the internet or anything on it, and that includes Bandcamp. It is not an egalitarian and nor is an Untopian idyll, once commerce gets involved all idealism evaporates, the popular artists get more popular at the expense of the lesser know and also-rans, this is as inevitable as the sun rising every morning and setting every evening. Even in the brief history of the Internet we can predict this will happen because there isn't a single enterprise or endeavour that has been launched onto the world wide web that hasn't followed this path. Because the internet (and all that is in it) is a global phenomenon it means that single powerful "clusters" rapidly dominate, so control of that cluster reduces to the few rather than the many. Bandcamp is a prime example of that, there is only one prefered music hosting site - ReverbNation and SoundCloud have lost the race, (see here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91557" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91557 ), Napster, mp3.com and all the other "one-clicks" are no where to be seen - that is not the result of communism or socialism or left-wing ideology, that is survival of the fitest, that is "only one can survive".
Actually, that is related to dialectical materialism. A contradictions in music industry itself made it.
 
EDIT: Don't make a wrong connection between "Untopian idyll" and Marxism' strand of Dialectical materialism. There's not any idealism in Dialectial meterialism because the theory is based on cycling of the historical necessity.
Of course, a lot of idealism you can find in a communist's point of view, but you can not find a drop of that in Dialectic materialism where a human being is regarding as an economic unit as well. And that's why the theory is great  - and approved.


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 14 2013 at 11:27
Band Camp (bandcamp) {band camp}
 
I dunno, I recently signed up to download Knifeworld's latest and I voluntarily paid them for the FLAC, although you can download it for free, in order to support them for the upcoming album. Big smile


-------------


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 14 2013 at 11:36
Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Dean

LOL You're not wrong there Steve LOL
 
 
One day people will wake up and smell the starbucks.
I growed up in that legendary Marshal Tito's self-management socialism ( where, for example, the communist party was giving all support to the progrock bands to make their music almost 100% free of "market claims" ), and I'v been learned about all these things in school.
Then you should be able to recognise how wrong you are. There is nothing remotely lefty/socialist about the internet or anything on it, and that includes Bandcamp. It is not an egalitarian and nor is an Untopian idyll, once commerce gets involved all idealism evaporates, the popular artists get more popular at the expense of the lesser know and also-rans, this is as inevitable as the sun rising every morning and setting every evening. Even in the brief history of the Internet we can predict this will happen because there isn't a single enterprise or endeavour that has been launched onto the world wide web that hasn't followed this path. Because the internet (and all that is in it) is a global phenomenon it means that single powerful "clusters" rapidly dominate, so control of that cluster reduces to the few rather than the many. Bandcamp is a prime example of that, there is only one prefered music hosting site - ReverbNation and SoundCloud have lost the race, (see here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91557" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91557 ), Napster, mp3.com and all the other "one-clicks" are no where to be seen - that is not the result of communism or socialism or left-wing ideology, that is survival of the fitest, that is "only one can survive".
Actually, that is related to dialectical materialism. A contradictions in music industry itself made it.
 
EDIT: Don't make a wrong connection between "Untopian idyll" and Marxism' strand of Dialectical materialism. There's not any idealism in Dialectial meterialism because the theory is based on cycling of the historical necessity.
Of course, a lot of idealism you can find in a communist's point of view, but you can not find a drop of that in Dialectic materialism where a human being is regarding as an economic unit as well. And that's why the theory is great  - and approved.


There's this great Danish book called Erasmus Montanus by Ludvig Holberg you'd probably dig big time. It's about a young man who goes to college and manages to get everything wrong. One of the things he does when he returns to his homestead is to prove that his mother is a stone. " A stone cannot fly. Mother cannot fly. Ergo Mother is a stone."


-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 14 2013 at 13:59
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Dean

LOL You're not wrong there Steve LOL
 
 
One day people will wake up and smell the starbucks.
I growed up in that legendary Marshal Tito's self-management socialism ( where, for example, the communist party was giving all support to the progrock bands to make their music almost 100% free of "market claims" ), and I'v been learned about all these things in school.
Then you should be able to recognise how wrong you are. There is nothing remotely lefty/socialist about the internet or anything on it, and that includes Bandcamp. It is not an egalitarian and nor is an Untopian idyll, once commerce gets involved all idealism evaporates, the popular artists get more popular at the expense of the lesser know and also-rans, this is as inevitable as the sun rising every morning and setting every evening. Even in the brief history of the Internet we can predict this will happen because there isn't a single enterprise or endeavour that has been launched onto the world wide web that hasn't followed this path. Because the internet (and all that is in it) is a global phenomenon it means that single powerful "clusters" rapidly dominate, so control of that cluster reduces to the few rather than the many. Bandcamp is a prime example of that, there is only one prefered music hosting site - ReverbNation and SoundCloud have lost the race, (see here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91557" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91557 ), Napster, mp3.com and all the other "one-clicks" are no where to be seen - that is not the result of communism or socialism or left-wing ideology, that is survival of the fitest, that is "only one can survive".
Actually, that is related to dialectical materialism. A contradictions in music industry itself made it.
 
EDIT: Don't make a wrong connection between "Untopian idyll" and Marxism' strand of Dialectical materialism. There's not any idealism in Dialectial meterialism because the theory is based on cycling of the historical necessity.
Of course, a lot of idealism you can find in a communist's point of view, but you can not find a drop of that in Dialectic materialism where a human being is regarding as an economic unit as well. And that's why the theory is great  - and approved.


There's this great Danish book called Erasmus Montanus by Ludvig Holberg you'd probably dig big time. It's about a young man who goes to college and manages to get everything wrong. One of the things he does when he returns to his homestead is to prove that his mother is a stone. " A stone cannot fly. Mother cannot fly. Ergo Mother is a stone."
LOL yea he's out of order.
Well, If you like the books in that style, I recommend you this novel from 19th century.
 
 
Really great 'decandent' novel from 19th century, quite opposite of Marx' Capital and Dialectic Materialism.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 15 2013 at 06:10
Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Svetonio

Originally posted by Dean

LOL You're not wrong there Steve LOL
 
 
One day people will wake up and smell the starbucks.
I growed up in that legendary Marshal Tito's self-management socialism ( where, for example, the communist party was giving all support to the progrock bands to make their music almost 100% free of "market claims" ), and I'v been learned about all these things in school.
Then you should be able to recognise how wrong you are. There is nothing remotely lefty/socialist about the internet or anything on it, and that includes Bandcamp. It is not an egalitarian and nor is an Untopian idyll, once commerce gets involved all idealism evaporates, the popular artists get more popular at the expense of the lesser know and also-rans, this is as inevitable as the sun rising every morning and setting every evening. Even in the brief history of the Internet we can predict this will happen because there isn't a single enterprise or endeavour that has been launched onto the world wide web that hasn't followed this path. Because the internet (and all that is in it) is a global phenomenon it means that single powerful "clusters" rapidly dominate, so control of that cluster reduces to the few rather than the many. Bandcamp is a prime example of that, there is only one prefered music hosting site - ReverbNation and SoundCloud have lost the race, (see here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91557" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91557 ), Napster, mp3.com and all the other "one-clicks" are no where to be seen - that is not the result of communism or socialism or left-wing ideology, that is survival of the fitest, that is "only one can survive".
Actually, that is related to dialectical materialism. A contradictions in music industry itself made it.
Actually, it isn't. While incremental changes may or may not be the result of contradictions or opposites, they are more likely to be the result of "trial and error" - something was tried (mp3.com and Napster and to some extent, MySpace) - it did not work so something else was tried (one-clicks such as Mediafire and MegaUpload) - it did not work, so something else was tried (SoundCloud, ReverbNation, Bandcamp). None of these were a reaction to the music industry as such, they were all enterprises attempting to corner a market share that the music industry is unable to service. (Not unwilling but unable). 
 
It is a myth that all these "solutions" grew out of the malaise of the music industry. The music industry was only interested in Napster when it was pirating their product without permission, they could not give a flying fart about Napster selling music made by some kid in his bedroom with Cubase. It didn't then and it doesn't now.
 
All these attempted solutions are Vanity Publishing. The music industry cannot make money out of low-volume artists, it is simply the wrong industry for that kind of product, (or the wrong product for that industry), in much the same way that Sears or JC Penny cannot sell the handmade craft products sold at Craft Fayres, niche Boutiques and Market Stalls - this isn't a issue of scale or volume, but of the lack of sufficient potential customers for it to be economically viable - you can only sell a limited number of hand-knitted toilet roll covers, and you can only sell a limited number of ambient psychedelic experimental drone electronica albums (I know, I've tried). This is not a failing of the music industry, but a failing of artists expectation and customers perception.

There is a naivety of expectation that Bandcamp product is equal to (for want of a better description) Top 40 product, and this is at best a misconception, at worse it is disingenuous. Bandcamp is not even a rival for iTunes or Amazon at the present, though I expect that will change as more signed artists begin using it, but then so will the nature of Bandcamp - these distribution enterprises will converge at the expense of the small independent artists (and their followers) that currently champion Bandcamp.
 
Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Bandcamp, under different circumstances I may even use it, (I have tried SoundCloud but after 13 years I grow tired of repeatedly uploading my albums to the ever-shifting sand as each venture briefly flourishes and rapidly vanishes from the internet), but I do not see it as the great music revolution.
 
Bandcamp (and their ilk) are not leftist or communist, Amanda Palmer and Pelican are not using Bandcamp for the greater good, they are not aiding any of the other artists who use Bandcamp, their sales are not funding the whole "community". There isn't even an indirect knock-on effect resulting from their use of Bandcamp. They use it to sell their products to their audience and in the process making money for themselves and the owners of Bandcamp. This is not socialism. Nor is it leftist or socialist or communist when smaller independent record labels and otherwise signed artists use Bandcamp for distribution, that is merely using it to deliver product without playing games with Pinnacle or Plastic Head (PHD) ... (or Copro or Cleopatra or Dress2Kill for the lesser known artists) ... and here I do recognise that this particular tactic is in someway connected to dialectical materialism - dealing with Disties is the least enjoyable part of the music industry and one seldom discussed.
 
The irony is that the way in which the music industry operates is far more socialist than it appears. The labels pay 100 artists to make records, a small percentage (say 5%) of those make money, the remaining 95% make a loss. The gains from the few pay for the losses of the many. The problem there is the artist that sells a million albums and grosses $10million (and netts a percentage of that) does not see that the "missing" $millions was used to fund the other 95 artists who did not sell a million albums - and they see this as "unfair" - grrr! evil fat-cats! Bandcamp redresses that perceived imbalance, now the artists makes $9million, Bandcamp's owners make $1million and all the other artists get nothing.This is not socialism.
 
Originally posted by Svetonio

EDIT: Don't make a wrong connection between "Untopian idyll" and Marxism' strand of Dialectical materialism. There's not any idealism in Dialectial meterialism because the theory is based on cycling of the historical necessity.
I didn't. Presumed idealistic Cause and perceived ideological Result are unrelated - it is a connection you made, not me.
Originally posted by Svetonio

Of course, a lot of idealism you can find in a communist's point of view, but you can not find a drop of that in Dialectic materialism where a human being is regarding as an economic unit as well. And that's why the theory is great  - and approved.
Then it is irrelevant. (and off topic).


-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 15 2013 at 08:10
@Dean, I think that you confuse socialism with communism what is an ideal, and that society was not implemented anywhere. Something that looks like communism is the kibbutz but it's not communism. But, back to the topic. Bandcamp managed to beat the others like Myspace, Reverbnation, Soundcloud, etc., because of its ingenious design. When you go to Bandcamp pages, you may choose an album based on a cover as many of us used to do in the ancient time. For a fan, that's the most exciting and the most fun way to discover a new band or an artist.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 15 2013 at 09:31
Originally posted by Svetonio

@Dean, I think that you confuse socialism with communism what is an ideal, and that society was not implemented anywhere. Something that looks like communism is the kibbutz but it's not communism. But, back to the topic. Bandcamp managed to beat the others like Myspace, Reverbnation, Soundcloud, etc., because of its ingenious design. When you go to Bandcamp pages, you may choose an album based on a cover as many of us used to do in the ancient time. For a fan, that's the most exciting and the most fun way to discover a new band or an artist.
As amusing as it is that you presume to know what I confuse, I do no such thing. I am fully aware of the differences between ideology and reality, Bandcamp is none of those socio-political ideologies nor is it any socio-economic realities. Bandcamp is a self-signing record label without the finacial support for the artist and it is a distribution network without a distribution infrastructure. The ingenuity of Bandcamp is not the design because we've seen that all before, the ingenuity is getting people to promote it for free ... not promoting the bands, artists, albums and tracks themselves, but idea of Bandcamp itself ... selling the hope of the dream but not the reality.
 
Picking an album by its cover alone is stupid, picking an album just by reading the artists self-promoting hype is also stupid - the advantage of Bandcamp is streaming, (assuming you have hours in a day to listen to 10,000s of tracks), not the pretty pictures and the vague genre tagging.
 
With old skool record labels the odds are 100:1 of an artist selling big - what that means is there is a 1% chance of randomly finding a great album on that label. With Bandcamp those odds decrease by factors of thousands - you will find stuff you like, you may even still like it next week, if you remember it. But you will not find that one magnificent life-changing masterpiece album that you dream of finding by chance alone, the odds are stacked against you and against the artist. Because I don't care for the 2-star and 3-star albums, I've enough of those to last me a lifetime (having bought too many of them because of the http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=13951" rel="nofollow - pretty picture on the cover ), I want magnificence.


-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 07:07
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Svetonio

@Dean, I think that you confuse socialism with communism what is an ideal, and that society was not implemented anywhere. Something that looks like communism is the kibbutz but it's not communism. But, back to the topic. Bandcamp managed to beat the others like Myspace, Reverbnation, Soundcloud, etc., because of its ingenious design. When you go to Bandcamp pages, you may choose an album based on a cover as many of us used to do in the ancient time. For a fan, that's the most exciting and the most fun way to discover a new band or an artist.
As amusing as it is that you presume to know what I confuse, I do no such thing. I am fully aware of the differences between ideology and reality, Bandcamp is none of those socio-political ideologies nor is it any socio-economic realities. Bandcamp is a self-signing record label without the finacial support for the artist and it is a distribution network without a distribution infrastructure. The ingenuity of Bandcamp is not the design because we've seen that all before, the ingenuity is getting people to promote it for free ... not promoting the bands, artists, albums and tracks themselves, but idea of Bandcamp itself ... selling the hope of the dream but not the reality.
 
Picking an album by its cover alone is stupid, picking an album just by reading the artists self-promoting hype is also stupid - the advantage of Bandcamp is streaming, (assuming you have hours in a day to listen to 10,000s of tracks), not the pretty pictures and the vague genre tagging.
 
With old skool record labels the odds are 100:1 of an artist selling big - what that means is there is a 1% chance of randomly finding a great album on that label. With Bandcamp those odds decrease by factors of thousands - you will find stuff you like, you may even still like it next week, if you remember it. But you will not find that one magnificent life-changing masterpiece album that you dream of finding by chance alone, the odds are stacked against you and against the artist.Because I don't care for the 2-star and 3-star albums I've enough of those to last me a lifetime (having bought too many of them because of the http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=13951" rel="nofollow - pretty picture on the cover ), I want magnificence.
1) I didn't mentioned Bandcamp in the contest of socialism. I mentioned Dialectic materialism, for some other reason, but not SOCIALISM. I said at previous page that Bandcamp is based on an idea which is leftist idea and (or) progressive idea in its essence. I know that when it says *left-wing* that straight associate with socialism, but it's not. Actually, *left* indicates a progressivity in every field of human endevor; the term comes from the French Bourgois when the rich citizens who were fight against the aristocracy (what was very progressive at the time) have been called "left-wingers" just to be discerned from the rich citizens who supported aristocracy and have been called "right-wingers" for the same reason.
2) Nope. it's not stupid to pick album by album cover. When you in a records store with a lot of new albums, (as it is also in an internet record shop called Bandcamp) and picked an album on that "stupid" way, it involves an adventure; would an adventure like that be stupid thing for a proghead who's looking for a new album while watching all these beautiful covers? a conservative person's answer will be "yes, it's very stupid". Quite obviously, because conservatism and progressivity is two different worlds. About "un-reality" what Bancamp sell.. Well, with the "bandcamp bands" & "bedroom magicians" you can talk here in the forum, what wasn't / isn't that obvious thing with a number of the artist who are signed for old fashioned record labels who, in so many cases, don't allow the artist even to upload one full song at Youtube - maybe teaser only - because that kind of the labels are working as the exclusive boutiques of high fashion clothing. No problem (who cares?), but they don't sell very expensive clothes, they sell CDs and LPs, so I don't think they will survive on the market; also, not so many people will hear music of their new artists but ok it's their choice. On other side are open-minded and modern record labels who have their presence at Bandcamp (who promote bands and albums hence there), who allow music of their bands at Youtube, etc, and I salute that
3) That streaming is also part of the Bandcamp's ingenious design. In my previous post I pointed out the graphical part of it, because when you came at Bandcamp pages you can not hear the music first but you see the covers.
4) Quantity makes quality. In late 60's and during whole 70s a huge lists of prog (and prog related) albums were relesed, just few are passed the test of time; it means that less albums was released, consenquently the less 70s albums will be  attracitve for the kids in 2010s.
5) I don't know how you rate the albums because I don't know you criteria, but I heard some of 3 star albums who are better than some of 5 stars rated albums.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 08:28
Originally posted by Svetonio

1) I didn't mentioned Bandcamp in the contest of socialism. I mentioned Dialectic, for some other reason, but not SOCIALISM. I said at previous page that Bandcamp is based on, basicly, an idea which is leftist idea and (or) progressive idea. I know that when it says *left-wing* that straight associate with socialism, but it's not. Actually, *left* indicates a progressivity in every field of human endevor; the term comes from the Frech Bourgois when the rich citizens who were fight against the aristocracy (what was very progressive at the time) called "left-wing" just to be devided from the rich citizens who supported aristocracy and have been called "right-wingers".
The modern concept of left-wing is associated with socialism and that is how people will interpret any comment you make regarding Bandcamp being "leftist". If you meant something different (eg class or social based, which I also dispute btw) then you should have corrected that earlier.

Originally posted by Svetonio

2) Nope. it's not stupid to pick album by album cover. When you in a records store with a lot of new albums, (as it is in an internet record  shop called Bandcamp too) and picked an album like that, it involves an adventure; would an adventure like that woud be stupid thing for a proghead who looking for a new album that wasching all these beautiful covers ? a conservative person's answer will be 'yes, it's stupid". Quite obvuously, because conservatism and progressivity is two different worlds.
Experience says otherwise. A pretty picture is not an indication of the music within. Dreadful albums can have great covers and great albums can have dreadful covers, that's a reality. When you chose albums by some stereotype generic cover you tend to get stereotypical generic music. 

Roger Dean covers tend to look the same because that is his style of art, that is not a reflection of the diversity of albums or artists they are used on: Motown Chartbusters Volume Six and Snafu's eponymous album sound nothing like each other or Close To The Edge. A Yes fan picking Snafu because of the Roger Dean artwork would result in disappointment.

Similarly Hipgnosis album covers have a certain interchangeable style: stripped of any album title or band name the covers they produced for The Nice, The Cranberries, Catherine Wheel, Audioslave, Mars Volta, Biffy Clyro and Muse and they could be Pink Floyd covers, yet none of those band's music is anything like Pink Floyd.

for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaBWlBknNgs" rel="nofollow - whose  cover is this... Pink Floyd or The Nice?

[ɹǝɥʇᴉǝu =ɹǝʍsuɐ]
Originally posted by Svetonio

About "un-reality" what Bancamp sell.. Well, with the "bandcamp bands" & "bedroom magicians"you can talk here in the forum, what wasn't / isn't that obviouswith the number of the artist who are sighed for old fashioned record labels who, in many cases, don't allow the artist even to upload one full song at Youtube - maybe teaser only - because that kind of the labels are working as the exclusive boutiques of high fashion clothing. No problem, but they don't sell very expensive clothes, they sell CDs and LPs, so I don't think they will survive on the market; other thing is open-minded and modern record labels who have their presence at Bandcamp and I salute that
That's nonsensical, and relates to nothing I have said about Bandcamp. Your analogy is flawed, labels are not the haute couture boutiques, they are the off-the-peg chain-stores - they are the volume producers and the volume sellers, Bandcamp is not in that market (at the moment).

Originally posted by Svetonio

 
3) That streaming is also part of the Bandcamp's ingenious design. In my previous post I pointed out the graphical part of it, beceuse when you came at Bandcamp pages you can not hear the music first but you see the covers.
Same is true of Amazon and iTunes, your point is moot.
Originally posted by Svetonio

 
4) Quantity makes quality. In late 60's and during 70s a huge lists of prog (and prog related) albums were relesed, just few are passed test of time; it means that less albums was released, consenquently the less 70s albums will be  attracitve for the kids in 2010s.
This is made worse by Bandcamp, not better, and the time scale where these Bandcamp albums will fail the test of time is rapidly reduced from 40 years to a matter of days or weeks. Quantity does not make quality: " http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=never%20mind%20the%20quality" rel="nofollow - Never mind the quality... feel the width " is an age-old British idiom.

Three years ago I wrote a whole blog-page on this subject that sadly few people understood: ( http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64725" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64725 ) - that blog was written before the rise in popularity of Bandcamp but everything I wrote there still applies.
Originally posted by Svetonio

 
5) I don't know how you rate the albums because I don't know you criteria, but I heard some of 3 star albums who are better than some of 5 stars rated albums.
My rating system is immaterial, as is yours. If you have the skill to find albums that meet your 5-star criteria by surfing Bandcamp then good for you, I do not have that time nor patience to sift through 100,000 looking for those that meet my personal 5-star standards. Cream is not the only thing that rises to the surface.


-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 02:27
^ I think that nobody here is crazy that much to think that I mentioned the word *leftist* in this thread in contest of Socialism as the civil order. However, it's perfectly clear that Bandcamp is prepared an ideological soil for New Prog Revolution. The young artists are free to do what they want in Bandcamp. Also, in Bandcamp these talented young musicians are not threated as the prisoners as it is the case in many of those old-fashioned bourgeoisie's physical record labels with the target audience. Furthermore, when young bands' albums at Bandcamp are good enough, if they to play a number of live gigs and alredy have a solid fan base, then if those bands and solo artists for any reason want to deal with a physical record label, not a single old-fashioned bourgeois will be able to dictate the conditions that interfere with their artistic expressions and their artistic freedom, and that is revolutionary in this very moment.
 
 
p.s. Actually I don't like the pic you posted above, and I knew it's a cover of some bullsh*t music. As you know, the red balls who are come out from nowhere doesn't instantly send an artwork in the league of Hipgnosis; in Art, *how* is the most important thing, not *what*.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 02:39
Originally posted by Svetonio

^ I think that nobody here is crazy that much to think that I mentioned the word *leftist* in this thread in contest of Socialism as the civil order. However, it's perfectly clear that Bandcamp is prepared an ideological soil for New Prog Revolution. The young artists are free to do what they want in Bandcamp. Also, in Bandcamp these talented young musicians are not threated as the prisoners as it is the case in many of those old-fashioned bourgeoisie's physical record labels with the target audience. Furthermore, when young bands' albums at Bandcamp are good enough, if they to play a number of live gigs and alredy have a solid fan base, then if those bands and solo artists for any reason want to deal with a physical record label, not a single old-fashioned bourgeois will be able to dictate the conditions that interfere with their artistic expressions and their arististic freedom, and that is revolutionary in this very moment.
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: RyanElliott
Date Posted: November 19 2013 at 20:01

Three years ago I wrote a whole blog-page on this subject that sadly few people understood: ( http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64725" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64725 ) - that blog was written before the rise in popularity of Bandcamp but everything I wrote there still applies.

I've read the first couple of posts on that forum. There are some really interesting questions you bring into place. The level of professionalism that one may set themselves to will of course separate them from the mediocrity that supposedly would run amok. 
By professionalism, I mean that in every aspect. Being in terms of the quality of the product, the presentation, the attitude of the artists, the level of the engagement they can offer to the people that would be interested in hearing what they do. 
Beyond the Internets, the one thing I will always stand by is the power of the word of mouth. The artists that have the ability to touch people and tell their story that  will allow their art to naturally resonate. 
There have been some serious innovators out there, Imogen Heap being perhaps a pinnacle example and a huge inspiration for me in terms of the sheer level of ambition to create a stunning album whilst giving her all to her followers. I can't say I could do what she does myself, but I can certainly take the ideas on board.
BandCamp is another format to where your music is like water to people, it's available, albeit an opportunity for a better deal than most income wise. it gets the music out there! What makes the difference for those who are successful is their understanding of the 100 to 100,000 or whatever amount of people they are engaging with. 

I struggle to articulate this, but as a young aspiring artist, I have took on board a lot of what Seth Godin has said, he's a quite the marketing futurist, and his point of view I see as a very fresh outlook that embraces a lot of what artists face today. 

This 2 part video may be of interest to some. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXmcxuckvsA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXmcxuckvsA


Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: November 22 2013 at 08:24
Originally posted by RyanElliott

 

I struggle to articulate this, but as a young aspiring artist, I have took on board a lot of what Seth Godin has said, he's a quite the marketing futurist, and his point of view I see as a very fresh outlook that embraces a lot of what artists face today. 

This 2 part video may be of interest to some. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXmcxuckvsA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXmcxuckvsA

It may show the best possible way, as far as money's part of the equation. But music isn't only about money nor reaching people either. You can make music just like you decorate/develop your own world, and may even want to keep it for yourself unless you trust someone else's ears and way of reacting to it. It doesn't mean you should choose that way, of course, but it does change the dynamics of it all. 

You may even feel well about the disappearing of anything you discovered and created without anybody having learnt about or paying notice, just because you trust that any good ideas will be made well known sooner or later, either through your own discoveries or someone else's.



-------------
I promote music on my homepage but also

Aragon (Changeling, otEdge)
Pulp Culture (EoRD, ItSoaP)
Tiemko
Tuvalu (live)
uSSSy (Kombucha)
Wanana-Bani Garden (+postprod?)
WytchCrypt (intros!; 6th!)


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 22 2013 at 08:33
^Sort of a semi Buddhist's way of approaching the music marketLOL

-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: November 22 2013 at 14:13
Your comment is welcome...

Indeed the lone carefree retirement there would call buddhism to mind, except that a die hard buddhist would dismiss music, social sharing and money all the same, and a semi-buddhist would simply accommodate with it "on surface" like transitory things.

But of course I meant to emphasize the significance of money (linked to the importance of reaching enough people) in the creation process.



-------------
I promote music on my homepage but also

Aragon (Changeling, otEdge)
Pulp Culture (EoRD, ItSoaP)
Tiemko
Tuvalu (live)
uSSSy (Kombucha)
Wanana-Bani Garden (+postprod?)
WytchCrypt (intros!; 6th!)


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: November 22 2013 at 15:23
Originally posted by jayem

Originally posted by RyanElliott

 

I struggle to articulate this, but as a young aspiring artist, I have took on board a lot of what Seth Godin has said, he's a quite the marketing futurist, and his point of view I see as a very fresh outlook that embraces a lot of what artists face today. 

This 2 part video may be of interest to some. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXmcxuckvsA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXmcxuckvsA

It may show the best possible way, as far as money's part of the equation. But music isn't only about money nor reaching people either. You can make music just like you decorate/develop your own world, and may even want to keep it for yourself unless you trust someone else's ears and way of reacting to it. It doesn't mean you should choose that way, of course, but it does change the dynamics of it all. 

You may even feel well about the disappearing of anything you discovered and created without anybody having learnt about or paying notice, just because you trust that any good ideas will be made well known sooner or later, either through your own discoveries or someone else's.


I like you are saying, we tend to forget the pleasure involved with the creation of music, the joy of being part of a jam, even if it would be a pain on record, the joy of putting some cords or tones together just because it's nice.
Too much effort is put on the marked, the money, and all that.
Music is a free ride (your own, that is). it may be a potential product too, but first of all its a way to express something.
A wonderful way indeed.


-------------
My Music: www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com
My blog: www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com


Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: November 22 2013 at 17:34
...Your comment is welcome ! Wink

-------------
I promote music on my homepage but also

Aragon (Changeling, otEdge)
Pulp Culture (EoRD, ItSoaP)
Tiemko
Tuvalu (live)
uSSSy (Kombucha)
Wanana-Bani Garden (+postprod?)
WytchCrypt (intros!; 6th!)


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 23 2013 at 08:05
Dean, I have actually read through your thread on Self-Releasing before and I do agree on many of the points made there.  When it comes to art, people feel obliged to behave like socialists or egalitarians perhaps...nevermind that in the same breath, they might trash or sneer down on pop music as a commercial product for the supposedly bereft-of-intellect-sheep.  Which is probably why some reacted rather than responded to your point.

Anyway...I agree that the abundance of choice is a mixed blessing at best.  At one level, it probably makes me lazy and content to listen to a few samples and leave it at that.  I am not one who craves to listen to 300/400 new albums every year. If I get to taste a handful of masterpieces or even just excellent works, I will be more than satisfied because I'd much rather listen to those handful of albums over and over and enjoy them to the hilt than sift through hundreds without much reward.  In that sense, the internet in general - and resources like PA - help me a lot more than bandcamp.  And you are right about how the more resourceful artists probably use these resources to spread word about them to push the ultimate transaction on bandcamp.  A good example from my experience is Renaissance's Grandine Il Vento.  They did use bandcamp to make the digital download available.  The promotion meanwhile was done mainly through their facebook page, which is already visited by thousands of their loyal fans, and some other online media.  For the record, I am happy I could get the download through bandcamp because I'd have reckoned it a 'bit' of a waste if I had had to order the CD and add another $10 for the shipping on top of that; to me it wasn't THAT good an album Wink.  

But one of the reasons why there is so much appreciation of bandcamp's model may be that perhaps the labels didn't necessarily do their job.  What kind of quality control lets Britney Spears seep through?  I like a good, well made commercial product which makes great musicianship accessible and infectious, not music that is just catchy for the sake of it and, well, nothing much else and has nothing of great value to say to me.  I understand that BS (ermmm LOL) would have had a target audience too but what happens to music in the midst of targeting all these demographics?  How much filtering do I need to do to find some pop that I might like?  Commercial or bandcamp, either which way I, as many others in my generation are often accused of, don't have a particularly large attention span.  The industry lost the plot in the noughties.  They already hadn't left too much scope for further lowest-common-denominatorization of music by the self-release crowd; there wasn't much further to sink to.  

I appreciate the benefits of a studio set up and a team of professionals working to make the product better.  But I question whether this was really happening.  In an alternative universe where it was, perhaps nobody would have been interested in self released products.  Industry zoomed in on the low hanging fruit and gave a wide berth to people who were a little more deeply interested in music because they are harder to please and therefore a riskier audience to target.  These were, I believe, the people who have now flocked to bandcamp and the like. If the industry did give them what they liked, they would buy it, no matter how much they professed to hate the industry. LOL  What all this reflects is a thirst for music that delivers an authentic experience and is not overly conscious of ticking all the commercial must-have boxes.  I presume the industry does a lot of market research but much of it seems to have been a failure at the end of the day.


Posted By: RyanElliott
Date Posted: December 01 2013 at 13:51
Jayem, 

I agree and glad you've made the point also of people doing it for joy. It's a match of the both worlds and ultimately the choice is there for what one may want to do. Smile



Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 12:35
All right !

Originally posted by RyanElliott

ultimately the choice is there for what one may want to do. Smile

The choice is there. I know several talented musicians who went to a psy, were diagnosed an obscure "mental disorder" and became happy disability annuitants ! Their real "crippling" being only of the social kind ( avoiding others, losing even their coolest and well-paid jobs, "childish" reluctance to develop poor social skills  ).


-------------
I promote music on my homepage but also

Aragon (Changeling, otEdge)
Pulp Culture (EoRD, ItSoaP)
Tiemko
Tuvalu (live)
uSSSy (Kombucha)
Wanana-Bani Garden (+postprod?)
WytchCrypt (intros!; 6th!)


Posted By: mawgojzeta
Date Posted: December 04 2013 at 20:54
Originally posted by smartpatrol

But artists can sell physical copies over Bandcamp if they have them


I just discovered this today when preordering a cd from a band  I like.  I was surprised because the last time (granted, a while back) I ordered music from Bandcamp, it was digital only.


Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: December 05 2013 at 01:36
Originally posted by mawgojzeta

Originally posted by smartpatrol

But artists can sell physical copies over Bandcamp if they have them


I just discovered this today when preordering a cd from a band  I like.  I was surprised because the last time (granted, a while back) I ordered music from Bandcamp, it was digital only.
In fact, the constantly increasing number of  the contemporary prog bands selling  their self-produced CDs & vinyl LPs (along with 'name your price' digital versions) at Bandcamp. Btw, that's often seen by the music industry dictatorship's apologists as subversive activity LOL






Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 05 2013 at 02:11
Except that it isn't subversive and doesn't affect the music industry one bit. If these bands had any commercial impact they would be signed to those industry dictators; for many years the music industry supported poor selling artists, now the artists have to fund themselves. I don't see that anyone loses on this, the low-volume artists get to sell a few albums and maybe recover costs, the industry dictators can concentrate on artists that earn them money and does not need to put any money into specialist subgenres that have very few followers. You can't make people buy Prog Rock by putting loads of marketing money into selling it so berating "music industry dictators" for the way they do business in the mainstream is just plain stupid. 

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this before it sinks in to people's heads: stop comparing prog rock with mainstream pop.


-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.69 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwiz.co.uk