The President Was Shot...
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Topic: The President Was Shot...
Posted By: Atavachron
Subject: The President Was Shot...
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 01:49
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...fifty years ago this week. Despite all the extraordinary research and discoveries made ~ such as the House Assassinations Committee’s conclusion that more than one gun was fired at JFK, or the Assassination Records Review Board set up in the early '90s to catalog all documentation in the case ~ the true facts are still unclear and certain areas have become even further complicated and obscured. The number of things we know to be accurate are tiny for such a major and documented event: That at least three shots were fired hitting both the President and the Texas governor; Kennedy was hit at least twice, once fatally; JFK was rushed to a nearby hospital but suffered irreparable wounds. That's all anyone agrees on 100%. But there is one other glaringly obvious fact: Despite what anyone believes really happened, we do know beyond reasonable doubt that Lee Harvey Oswald was involved. We know this because he fled the Book Depository Building, went home, retrieved a pistol and took off again. Only a few other Depository employees left the scene and none of them armed themselves, or slipped into a movie theater without paying as Oswald did later that day. His actions after the crime are just too odd and suggestive for him not to have known something was afoot, if he was not directly involved. In my opinion it is also quite likely that he did bring a rifle into the Depository before the assassination, probably in parts on different days that week, and left it on the sixth floor. Someone either told him to leave the rifle in the building, or he was one of the shooters. If the crime was a sophisticated scheme perpetrated by experts in military intelligence (or even Kennedy's protective detail as some assert), the cover plan was so brilliantly conceived it is no wonder we're just beginning to make some sense of it. Constructed like a never ending onion or Matryoshka doll, with layer upon layer of plausible suspects and scintillating intrigue, people of interest began piling up with every passing decade-- Cuban militants, mob hitmen, Texas right-wing oil, Eastern banking establishment, CIA, Soviet assassins, Freemasons, LBJ, John Birchers, Pentagon & the Joint Chiefs, causing each to take a defensive stance and forcing some of the very agencies investigating the crime to manipulate findings in order to maintain security (or just save face). Even Jackie wasn't spared the absurdity that she used a two-shot derringer to kill her husband as they rode together-- apparently she'd been a CIA recruit for years before marrying John Kennedy, later to kill him in a jealous rage. With leads like these, who needs real clues. Whether Oswald was set-up and the hit on JFK came from some complex military/intelligence plot, or it was just a criminal undertaking by a couple men ~ like say a desperate Jack Ruby & a broke Lee Oswald both deeply in debt and disillusioned ~ isn't as important as understanding how the crime was conducted, because then you can show conspiracy and get on with a real investigation. If there were government people involved they likely would have been doing this on their own time as private citizens, not official secret agents, so the 'government coup' angle is weak and does us a disservice. U.S. policy changed very little after Kennedy died. Presidents make decisions every day that piss-off countless powerful people, it's part of the job. The motives for this crime lay elsewhere than simple policy or industrial/military deep-politics. What muddles things is the evidence. Films of the crime, witness testimony, autopsy reports & photos, ballistics, are often contradictory. For example, a large number of highly credible witnesses insist the Presidential limousine slowed to a crawl or even briefly stopped at the moment of the fatal head shot, but the Zapruder film shows no such thing-- after turning the corner, the limo cruises at a consistent pace and then speeds off after JFK is hit in the head. This is very bothersome and casts serious doubt on the validity of the extant movie. Film may be considered more reliable than eye-witnesses but ultimately the law puts more weight on a preponderance of witness accounts as films can distort, deteriorate or be tampered with. Another example of puzzling testimony is that several credible people including Senator Ralph Yarborough who was several cars behind the President in the motorcade said they smelled gunpowder in the street as their cars rolled through just after the shots. If a lone assassin was shooting from high above and to the rear, how could gunsmoke be detected in the street just seconds after the final shot? The admitting nurse at Parkland Hospital in Dallas also said she "smelled gunpowder" as Kennedy and Connally were wheeled in, an impossibility if all the shots came from the Book Depository. The Warren Commission said these people had "vivid imaginations" and only think they smelled it, even though there are reports that the street was thick with gunsmoke. Oddly, none of the police, sheriffs or employees that searched the Depository moments after the shooting smelled any powder or smoke inside the building. A further fascinating aspect is the ballistics. The spent shells and one unfired round that were found on the 6th floor were owned by Oswald, were military copper-jacketed bullets made by Winchester, and matched fragments found in the limousine. Copper-jacketed rounds are designed not to fragment upon hitting or going through a body. But based on the explosive energy & velocity carried by the round that hit Kennedy's skull and the multiple gaping exit wounds, it indicates the bullet was was a frangible pellet or hollow-tip bullet normally used in hunting. This would on the surface show whatever hit JFK in the head was not fired from Oswald's rifle... until we take a closer look. It turns out Winchester made several different versions of the bullets in question, some fully-jacketed, some made to fragment, and these bullets were mixed together among the ones Oswald had purchased. They were also old WW II surplus, inexpensive and possibly faulty. Upon testing by the FBI and Army, the bullets did indeed fragment when shot into gelatin to the surprise of the specialists doing the testing. Future non-government tests on human skulls filled with gelatin that were shot with the same ammunition and rifle attributed to Oswald also proved a skull literally explodes when hit with these bullets. This is precisely what happened; the President’s skull shattered. There was no exit wound. And what of the innumerable and credible threats the President was receiving in 1963 ? As a matter of routine, these threats were looked into by the FBI and local police departments, passed on to the Secret Service, and had strong indications that any number of individuals and/or "radical groups" were quietly discussing a hit on JFK. These included plots in Florida, and in Chicago where a man, Thomas Vallee, was detained as a potential assassin. Vallee was an ex-marine in his twenties with "psychological problems". Just like Oswald. Joseph Milteer, an extreme right-winger from the South, was boasting in '63 to a friend (and secret FBI informant) about a plan to kill Kennedy "From an office building with a high-powered rifle". Something, either real or theoretical, was being talked about, and was quietly getting around extremist social circles. Whether a real plot had leaked or a cover-story for one was being cleverly dispersed, certain people had uncannily accurate details about the assassination. All this said, it is also well within the realm of possibility that Oswald did it. The evidence against him is compelling. Though a marine who'd been stationed at secret bases around the world and apparently sheep-dipped as an American Communist, he was indeed a devout Marxist who was quite skilled and intelligent. He had rifle-hunted for rabbit with his brother while a youth, became fluent in Russian by his early 20s, and while in the Marines had become a highly-cleared radar operator and fairly good rifleman (by civilian standards if not Marine ones). Dealey Plaza is smaller than it appears in pictures, and the shot from the sixth floor to the street not terribly difficult for a trained sharpshooter who'd been around guns his whole life. Couldn't have gotten off more than three shots with the rifle he was using? Nonsense, especially if he'd been practicing bolt-loading it rapidly (which his wife says he was doing). I have little doubt Oswald could have gotten off up to five rounds that day. The Warren Commission got some things right and some things wrong. It's problem was that it was commissioned to quell fears and reassure people that Oswald did it, not properly investigate the crime. Later studies like the House Assassinations Committee took a further step by concluding there "Probably was a second gunman firing from the knoll". They based this on a recording made from a motorcycle cop's microphone that was left on during the shooting, but as with most of the evidence in this case, was later shown to be inconclusive because the policeman was a block farther from Dealey Plaza than first thought. It doesn't necessarily disprove the recording's validity ~ it was given thorough scientific tests by some of the best sound specialists and the spikes made by gunfire were distinct even among the static and chatter of the old Dictabelt recording ~ but it did eventually discredit a promising lead. We were back to square one. As fate would have it, in the early 1990s a small team of qualified people in & out of government were quietly mandated by Congress to begin collecting, sorting and cataloging all the evidence and documentation in the case. It was called the JFK Records Act and though it had no investigative powers beyond the scope of securing evidence, it did have subpoena power and made good use of it. (Chief Analyst for Military Records on this team, Douglass Horne, writes about the life of this most important body and the information it uncovered in his five-volume tome Inside the ARRB). To date, the best indication that Oswald did not shoot Kennedy is the Voice Stress analysis tests made by ex-CIA analyst George O'Toole. His highly scientific and credible examination of Lee Oswald's statements just after he was arrested is that Oswald is not lying when he says "I didn't shoot anybody" or "I'm just the patsy". If Lee Harvey Oswald was an American spy posing as a defecting communist and later some sort of Federal informant, he was a mediocre and low-level one at best. He was seemingly a frustrated and impecunious man, fatherless, whose marriage was dissolving and whose fence-sitting between serious Marxist/Leninism and jingoistic Americanism was beginning to teeter. This makes him both an ideal fall-guy *and* a possible assassin. One begins to see the complexity of the problem, and of finding the truth. Suggested reading ; - Best Evidence by David Lifton - JFK and the Unspeakable by James W. Douglass - Murder in Dealey Plaza by James Fetzer - The Assassination Tapes by George O’Toole - Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams |
Replies:
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 02:21
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The title had my hopes up
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">  The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Eria Tarka
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 02:47
| ^ now, that's dark |
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 03:34
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Another obvious fact is that JFK's daughter Caroline has got to be a US Ambassador to Japan a while before.
------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 04:50
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The problem for many with the JFK assassination is that it was so mundane that it doesn't seem "fair" that the leader of the free world could be killed by such a sad lone specimen as Oswald, what it lacks is closure - Oswald was never tried and convicted of the crime, Ruby denied the American public that and that is what gives the event its intrigue and opens it up for conspiracy and conjecture.
A not dissimilar story: Between 1809 and 1812 the British Prime Minister was Spencer Perceval, in wikipedia he is described thusly: "Although not considered an inspirational leader, he is generally seen as a devout, industrious, principled man who at the head of a weak government steered the country through difficult times" - however he was far from being a popular leader. Difficult times... The period marked the end of the reign of mad King George III and the beginning of the Regency era, and of course the year 1812 is a very significant one in Europe and the USA with wars being fought across both continents and Britain in the thick of both. "At 5:15 on the evening of 11 May 1812, Perceval was on his way to attend the inquiry into the Orders in Council. As he entered the lobby of the House of Commons, a man stepped forward, drew a pistol and shot him in the chest. Perceval fell to the floor, after uttering something that was variously heard as "murder" or "oh my God". They were his last words. By the time he had been carried into an adjoining room and propped up on a table with his feet on two chairs, he was senseless, although there was still a faint pulse. When a surgeon arrived a few minutes later, the pulse had stopped, and Perceval was declared dead."  The assassin was John Bellingham, a merchant with a personal grudge against the British government, he was tried, convicted and hanged within a week of the shooting. A month later America declared war on Britain and France invaded Russia while Britain continued to support Spain and Portugal in the Peninsular War against Napoleon. Because of the turbulent nature of those times (Perceval was pretty much anti everything, including anti-catholic, anti-working class and anti-democracy) the initial thought was it was signalling the start of a civil uprising (leftish Jacobin revolt à la the French Revolution that had ended a mere ten years earlier), but Bellingham's immediate capture and confession soon quelled such thoughts. Subsequent conspiracies have suggested other reasons for Perceval's assassination, both political and military (espionage), but all of them lack evidence or justifiable reason to doubt Bellingham's confession and conviction. Like Kennedy, Perceval was the last elected leader of Britain to have died by assassination, but unlike the Kennedy the case of Perceval has closure and little need for conspiracy, it was a mundane murder with no political or social cause perpetrated by a lone gunman with a grudge. ------------- What? |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 04:50
Damn! I came here thinking Obama was assassinated  . Also it is not that I want Obama dead but he has sent many young people to die. Regurgitate that------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 07:00
 ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
smartpatrol wrote:Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 07:02
Yeah... Unfortunate title. ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 11:14
Kind of sad to see you hope someone gets murdered. Anyway, regarding the subject, unimteresting as it is, unexciting as it is, I have been thoroughly convinced that loser L.H. Oswald by himself, alone and without help or orders, killed JFK. Conspiracies are more entertaning though. And they can be the basis for awesome movies. ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 11:29
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I've read Best Evidence. Good book.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 11:34
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Guys, I don't really want Obama to get murdered. I mean, I wouldn't be sad if he was, but if I had it my way, he'd just be impeached
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 12:02
| What I find to be more mysterious is why Jack Ruby killed Oswald and who pulled Jack Ruby's strings? |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 12:09
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 12:13
A real compassionate fellow
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 12:27
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I wouldn't pick on him, he's only thirteen years old, he know four-fifths of f___ all about anything.
------------- What? |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 12:35
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I wouldn't say I'd be "okay" with a murder, but if it happened, I
wouldn't be sad about it or anything. I don't like Obama, I think he's a
crook and he and his administration have done a lot of harm to this
already f**ked up country. If an assassination's the way he's out of
office, fine with me.
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 12:35
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It's sad and sick. There have been a few dictators/tyrants whose death would have been welcomed (we all know who they are) but now just being ok with murder because our politics are different is... Sick. -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 12:36
Anyway, Oswald must have thought like this even way past 13. -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 12:37
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^^ correction: three-fifths of f___ all.
------------- What? |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:02
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:14
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Very, very sick. ------------- |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:18
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I AM NOT SAYING I WANT THE PRESIDENT DEAD I AM NOT SAYING I WOULD BE HAPPY IF THE PRESIDENT WERE DEAD I WOULD MUCH RATHER HE BE ALIVE, BUT NOT BE IN OFFICE BUT IF HE WERE TO GET SHOT I WOULD NOT BE SAD ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:24
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errata: two-fifths of f___ all.
------------- What? |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:27
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well who the f**k said you know anything of f**k all?
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:31
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The person who will ban for an indefinite period should the idea enter my head.
------------- What? |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:36
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Well at least I'm not bullying a kid a fourth my age and threatening him because he's fighting back
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:38
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I'm not bullying. You're not fighting back, you are talking back. Perhaps it's time to correct the error we made last year.
------------- What? |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:39
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What did I do that's worth a suspension?
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:41
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I posted an opinion. You didn't like it. You insulted me. Fair enough. But the minute I insult you back, you threaten me? That's just stupid ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:48
Joined a site while below the permitted age. ------------- What? |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:50
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Yes, but you, your self decided to let it pass and now I am legally allowed to be on this site. Plus going back on that because I insulted you after you insulted me is completely unfair and immature (I know, ironic coming from me, but still) ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:51
I made a mistake back then, I see this now. one-fifth of f___ all. ------------- What? |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:52
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Anyone want to back me up here? ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:53
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Nope.
------------- What? |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:55
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I dodn't even know what else you have ever done man. I'm just commenting on what you said here. Hate in politics is bad. It usually reflects hate in life. That's why your comments met this reaction. Nothing else. Nothing personal. I don't like people banned either. -------------
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Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:57
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That's a completely fair point. I can be a pretty angry person. I try not to be, but I don't succeed very often. To be fair, there's a lot to get mad about. But don't you agree that Dean is abusing his status as an admin considering that all I did was just insult him back? ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 14:04
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I don't consider what you said to be an insult, ergo I do not consider what I said to be an insult. It is not an insult to say you don't know a great deal about anything, it is a statement of provable fact.
The difference between what I said and what you said was in the tone, as signified by the "who the f___ said" part of your parroting of my comment. I am not abusing my status in threatening to threaten to ban you (a subtle play with words, but what the hell, it's Sunday and I'm in a play-with words kind of mood). If you actually read what I said in answer to your question "who the f__ said" you wlll see that I did not say it would be me who would banned you.
------------- What? |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 14:04
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I have no idea what has happened before man. -------------
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Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 14:12
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I'm just going to leave now k JUST SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP WITH ALL THESE NEGATIVE VIBES ALL THIS YELLING JUST SHUT UP ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 14:34
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Bye. Don't let the door hit you ... etc. etc. etc.
------------- What? |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 14:38
My dear fellow, stop shouting, go away from the computer, and calm down a bit before you come back. Otherwise, rightly, you will be banned. My son is twelve year's old. He has great difficulty in achieving a balance between expressing intelligent opinion and pissing people off. It is my job as his father to try to point him in the right direction, especially in the social interaction discipline of life. So it is with you. Your comments regarding Obama (and it does not matter a damn whether you are Democrat, Republican, Socialist, Trotskyist, Monster Raving Loonyist......) crossed the line between intelligent debate and nastiness. Refrain from the latter. It will serve you well in later live. And if that sounds patronising from a middle aged so and so, it was meant to be, but for the right reasons. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 14:41
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Oswald did claim he was a patsy, but that may have just been obfuscating words. I don't believe the lone gunman theory. However I've not read much about the JFK Assassination so I cannot really comment. -------------   
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 14:44
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David, was the wound on Connally sufficiently analysed?
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 14:49
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Amusing detour taken by this thread. ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 14:55
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Aye, it was most amusing.
------------- What? |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 14:58
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I'm trying to get it back on track...
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 15:05
There is an old thread on this subject where (I think) David talked about the Governors wounds. /edit: close, it was GaryB who mentioned the wound: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82736&PID=4582745#4582745" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82736&PID=4582745#4582745
------------- What? |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 15:21
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Cheers, Dean.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 17:06
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In short: There was no magic bullet. Connolly was sitting a little to the left and below JFK. There was a perfect straight path to the bullet. -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 20:06
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^ Correct, nothing magic about it. And thanks, Dean, for the reference back to that old thread. James: Connally's wounds [he had a total of about five, as the bullet passed through his chest, wrist, and stopped in his thigh] were reasonably analyzed right after the shooting in Dallas at the same hospital JFK was taken to. There is little doubt one bullet hit him from the upper rear after traveling through the President. We're told that bullet, the famous "magic" one, was found on his stretcher at the Dallas hospital. Much has been made as to how it got there, and that Jack Ruby ~ who we know was at Parkland when this was all happening based on several very credible witnesses (who were never called to testify) ~ may have planted it. This is pure speculation, though it is odd Ruby would be racing around Dallas, first at Dealy Plaza "to see the fireworks" as a friend reported, and then 20 minutes later at Parkland. What was he doing there? |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 21:58
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One mustn't forget that both C.S. Lewis and Aldous Huxley died on the same day as John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Much like Mother Theresa died the same day as Lady Diana. -------------
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 22:55
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 23:00
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 00:00
Indeed. Far too much coverage was given to Lady Di. But I won't mention that again.  It's unfortunate that J.F.K. died that day as I'd say the death of Huxley and Lewis were great losses too. They obviously died natural deaths. -------------
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 00:26
 President of the country where I was born - Marshal Tito of Yugoslavia, and JFK. They were both great politicians and that was THE politics!
EDIT: The lovers of plot theories documentaries would to see this film when it come out:
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Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 02:55
Yeah, I picked up on that too straight away.  ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 03:07
Irony and sarcasm ... it's a git to get the balance right. I need more numpties to practice on. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 06:33
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Channel 5 in the UK last week aired a documentary whose particpants claimed that after the first shot was fired a secret service agent sitting next to JFK in the car sprang to his feet, grabbed his rifle intending to protect the president and when turning round accidentally pulled the trigger and blew his brains out. There then followed a 'conspiracy' to keep this quiet, which explained all the irregularitites in procedure around thr autopsy, and the rush to get the body out of Texas and back to D.C. Apparently it's law in Texas that a body cannot leave the state until the autopsy is complete. I don't know if these claims are any more or less believable than Oswald acted alone, or there was a 'triangulation of crossfire' invloving gunmen on the grassy knoll, and the Cubans/CIA organised it all etc etc etc. I know Kennedy pissed off a lot of people with his anti war rhetoric, disgust at state secrecy and mistrust of the Federal Reserve. You can take your pick really. I guess we will never know and if there was some dubious conspiracy it will not see the light of day until all players have died off. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 06:41
Is there evidence to suggest someone was pulling Ruby's strings?? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 07:47
There's some videos on YouTube about this, some people believe that the driver turned round and shot Kennedy and you can see the "gun" in the Zapruder video. This "gun" turns out to be light reflecting off the head of the other front seat passenger. When I started this post, I was going to say that it couldn't have been someone sitting next to JFK (actually only his wife was anyway) and it couldn't have been someone in the front of the car as JFK clearly slumped forward after the head shot, however after watching the video again, he clearly slumps BACKWARDS just after the bullet hits (at 0:57 in this video Weird.
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 08:33
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I swear these theories get more and more ridiculous every year.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 08:47
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------------- What? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 09:17
The trouble is nothing can be verified. One year (40th anniversary, maybe) the BBC made a documentary 'proving' that three successful shots could have been pulled off from that window by Oswald. In the wake of that, a series of internet documentaries sought to prove it impossible. Both made convincing cases at the time. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 11:02
I am not positive somebody pulled Ruby's strings but what would propel someone to shoot somebody knowing there was a 100 % chance they would be caught? A murder almost all of America saw on live TV. Yes, I think there is a good chance Jack Ruby had "handlers".
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 11:04
Only the ? why would he commit a murder which had all of America as witnesses. I think maybe he had "handlers".
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 13:30
Yeah, it was an odd decision to kill Oswald so publicly and brazenly. I don't know much about Ruby apart from that he was a club owner. Did he have known links to the mob? It was somewhat convenient that Oswald was taken out before he could be tried. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 13:37
What do you mean by verified exactly? There is no controlled experiment showing Oswalt was the shooter nor can there be. However, all of the evidence is consistent with this theory. There is no other theory which offers the same completeness or consistency. There's no conspiracy. People just need to deal with the fact that their lives are potentially short and can be ended under completely mundane and random circumstances. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 13:37
Who was pulling Mark David Chapman's strings? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 13:42
| Was he found to be psychotic?^ |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 13:53
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I didn't realize that was a stipulation. It's hard to be convinced by the argument: "I don't understand his motive."
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 13:57
| Jack Ruby perhaps had mental problems also so it just remains a mystery. |
Posted By: AEProgman
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 14:33
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^ Speaking of mental....didn't they lose Kennedy's brain in all of this, did they ever find that thing?
Only theory I have not heard yet is Suicide.. ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 20:24
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^ For some time the brain was missing, or misplaced, in the National Archives. As far as I know, it still is. It may be buried with JFK's body at Arlington, or it may be that whatever was left of the brain (most of the right hemisphere was gone) is lost somewhere like a relic out of Raiders of the Lost Arc. The current brain debate revolves around the photos and drawings of Kennedy's brain which appear to show a lacerated but almost intact brain. As for theories regarding the President's protective team shooting at him, this first emerged in a manuscript called Murder From Within, self-published by the authors decades later, theorizing the driver shot JFK. Another book called Mortal Error speculated a SS man in a car behind Kennedy accidentally shot him with his M-15. Though hard to swallow, Murder From Within presents an excellent, thoroughly researched case and ended up being one of the best and most influential of the conspiracy books. It is a remarkable read done with sincerity and meticulous documentation. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 20:34
His head moves almost imperceptibly forward and then suddenly backward. In fact his whole upper body is thrown back into the seat. But bullets entering bodies behave in all sorts of ways, not always predictably. The laws of physics demand an object that is struck by a second will move in the direction of the second object, which gave rise to the "He must've been shot from the front" argument. But the body, particularly the head, has many properties that are acted upon in counterintuitive ways: The head is mobile on the neck, it is round, very hard but with differing thicknesses around the skull, and under intense internal pressure. Kennedy's head exploded, like an egg that is squeezed from beneath, causing the head to interact with the rest of Kennedy's body. This cranial explosion may have caused a rearward snap as much as it could cause a forward one. We just don't know precisely what combination of physiologic forces were being stimulated. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 21:05
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Soon someone will say Obama killed JFK. -------------
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 21:28
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I definitely go for the JFK killed himself in a Red Dwarf way situation.
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 21:30
This isn't true even in the classical sense unless you replace object with something like particle. The head moves in a pretty intuitive way when you break down what occurred. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 21:37
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^ It moves in a way that is natural for head/body mechanics.
I wouldn't call it intuitive. The problem for many is that it simply looks as if something
hits him in the forehead. And indeed it does look that way. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 21:40
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Well I don't really want to argue about what is/is not intuitive, but I think it only runs counter to intuition if we think of the head as a solid object, which itself would be very unnatural when we talk about things passing through it.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 19 2013 at 00:36
Just so we're clear, I meant to say an object struck by a second will move in the direction of the path the second object was taking. Of course with a head on a living body, even this may not always be true. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 19 2013 at 09:41
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What role did the back brace he was wearing play. One doctor claims it contributed to his death by keeping him in an upright position.
http://news.yahoo.com/doctor--back-brace-may-have-cost-jfk-his-life-014056391.html
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 19 2013 at 13:59
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I've read that theory before. Yes, the body brace is said to have prevented JFK from reacting like any normal body would after a shot in the throat and probably bend over in pain, or backwards gasping for air, making it more difficult for the shooter to aim so precise a shot as the one that actually killed him. He was a sitting duck thanks to that brace. The first shot went clear, no bone, no essentials destroyed. JFK would have survived. But that's like saying that he would have lived if he had been traveling faster or on a different road or anything else. In the end it's all nothingness. -------------
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 19 2013 at 14:07
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Has anyone done a poll on the Kennedy Assassination on this site? It woud be interesting to see what proggers think as opposed to other national polls.
-Oswald as lone gunman
-A conspiracy
-Or undecided
I was 12 years old when it happened and didn't really understand all of it until I was about 17 or18 and didn't even get all the meanings until reading a few books some years after that.
I've been on the fence with this since the 70's.....I'm undecided. There are good arguments for both sides.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 19 2013 at 18:52
The brace may have played a significant role, it certainly didn't help. But that doesn't necessarily mean he would've lived. The shot through the neck was quite serious, bruising his cervical spine and windpipe. JFK was also a terribly afflicted man with Addison's (a malfunctioning of the adrenals), a not-fully-healed spine from an old operation, and numerous other ailments caused by the steroids and pain-killers he was taking daily. Another interesting thing about the neck wound is that, in my opinion based on years of research, the shot that went through Kennedy's neck hit him at a steep angle at the top of the neck right at his hairline, traveled through the trachea and went on to wound Connally. But JFK was hit again, the second shot that hit him, in the upper back just right of the spine as seen in autopsy photos of his back. This bullet only went in an inch or two, embedded in JFK's large back muscles, and somehow was dislodged. Only then did the head shot strike. This has caused much confusion because the Warren Report claimed only three shots could be fired from Oswald's old Italian rifle during the time frame of the shooting ~ approximately 5 to 7 seconds ~ and that the first shot missed, the second hit JFK in the back and then hit Connally, the third shot hit the President's skull. I believe the Commission was wrong, and after locking themselves into the 'Only three shots were possible and one missed' conclusion, had to avoid the issue of more shots. This was a shame and tainted future investigations. Whoever was shooting at the President, if it was only one person, must've got off at least four rounds, assuming the timing is right and one shot missed. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 20 2013 at 03:22
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Wasn't there some evidence presented to the Warren commission (behind closed doors) that a 70 year injunction was slapped on? if so I guess we can hear what that is 20 years from now. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 20 2013 at 03:59
| Yeah we'll see |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 20 2013 at 04:31
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^^^ I think there was a 70 year injunction slapped on some new evidence in the Princess Diana death fiasco. This was apparently done out of "respect for the families feelings" etc You can make what you will of these things. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: November 20 2013 at 05:58
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Maybe you'll find some interesting material http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/index1.htm" rel="nofollow - here . ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 20 2013 at 06:22
What? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 20 2013 at 06:32
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I am not sure what to think anymore. Too many options and information that goes in all directions. What I always found a little puzzling though, was the subsequent assassination of Robert. Back when I was younger I felt there was a connection there, but then again both of the brothers made powerful foes with their outspoken opinions on race discrimination and (anti) war.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 20 2013 at 07:16
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 20 2013 at 07:20
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 20 2013 at 07:25
No idea. The story broke about two years ago in the UK, in the Daily Mail but there is not a trace of it on the web now. More recently some former SAS officer claimed he had evidence that the SAS were involved in her death, but he - coincidentally had a book coming out - and that too has gone silent. probably BS. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: November 20 2013 at 16:01
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2 years ago? Almost the day after she died the conspiracies started.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 20 2013 at 21:36
Unfortunately but unsurprisingly, most of these rebuttals lack imagination and bring little new to the table. The evidence they rebuff is a small percentage and they ignore many other important facts. You can't say there was no gunsmoke in the street when senators and motorcycle cops are reporting it. You might say that doesn't prove conspiracy, but not that these people were imagining it, are un-credible, or are untrained observers. One alternate possibility is that Ruby and Oswald planned & did the job themselves for a tidy sum, and were either set-up, or word got out and someone wanted to make sure the assassination was successful by placing a second shooter in Dealy Plaza. If established, the investigation could've then followed a money trail (if any). |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: November 21 2013 at 10:15
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Oh wow, was gunna make a thread on the actual day...but I see this is already going strong.
Well, crazy to think 50 years has gone, and it's of course just a page in history books for me...
I also heard about that 70 year thing, it was from a teacher...I didn't buy it, especially since I wondered what it was based on (the urban legends spawned about this are amazing). I only did a quick search, but thus far I can't find anything about it.
Would be nice if one day the truth really did come out.
Unless of course the truth is, there is no conspiracy
 I'll admit, I never really looked into the JFK thing, just know all the various stories and claims. I've seen a few shows/clips where people recreated the exact situation of the car, and the bullet would've had a perfectly straight path, causing all the injuries. It was something like, Connally is sitting a bit below and skewed to the side of Kennedy so couldn't a bullet on a straight, downward trajectory have hit Kennedy in the neck, Connally in the back and down to his thigh.
I mean, just a quick look...it seems like it is very plausible. If anyone cares to explain how this magic bullet theory came to be I'd like to hear. It seems insane to think so many people could've gotten their seating position wrong but look, at least here seems possible a straight path could've caused all the wounds.
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: November 21 2013 at 10:24
I was one person who reported you for being under age when you first came on, which was only due to your.....questionable attitude. See? I'm being polite to you...I was thinking something much worse to say.
Otherwise I wouldnt have cared. You're of age now, but the tude has remained, and I have seen fighting with admins and such language at them get people banned before.
Anyway, here's an interesting one.
The assassination was...an accident?
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/21/21520758-accidental-assassin-jfk-theory-alleges-secret-service-agent-fumbled-gun?lite" rel="nofollow - http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/21/21520758-accidental-assassin-jfk-theory-alleges-secret-service-agent-fumbled-gun?lite
Guess it could make sense, I just have never heard anything remotely close to it, and even the article claims no one has ever claimed to hear bullets from that area. Though, if it DID happen...it would make sense to cover it up, such a horrible event from a simple accident? Which would explain why witnesses may have been intimidated, trails thrown off, etc etc the 70 year hold on info. Would answer questions how Oswald fired so many bullets in that time
.....IT ALL MAKES SENSE
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 21 2013 at 18:37
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^ It's an old theory first presented in a book called Mortal Error. There
is almost no real evidence for it other than a few photos of the agent
in the car behind JFK's with his machine gun drawn after shots were
fired. A couple witnesses said they saw the two SS
men in the President's car holding handguns, but no one has ever
confirmed that. As for the origin of the Magic Bullet Theory, it was first proposed by Arlen Specter, then a Washington lawyer, who, after talking to gun experts, decided it was both possible and probable a bullet passed through both men. And in fact, it is. But it doesn't tell us anything about who shot the gun(s) and/or who planned the crime, and it became a huge distraction from more important evidence. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 22 2013 at 11:14
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By the way, and even though I like JFK (posthumously of course, I didn't even exist back in 1960-3), the CIA and everyone around him planned and tried to execute the murder of another president, Fidel Castro. So it might have been karma-kanic to use prog terms that JFK himself was murdered.
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 22 2013 at 17:00
Who do you think killed JFK? ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |