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The Album Genesis Discarded for ABACAB

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Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=96966
Printed Date: December 04 2021 at 04:34
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Topic: The Album Genesis Discarded for ABACAB
Posted By: SquonkHunter
Subject: The Album Genesis Discarded for ABACAB
Date Posted: January 29 2014 at 22:24
I once read that Genesis had material for a full album that they discarded because "they sounded like a parody of themselves"and did the completely different ABACAB instead. Anyone here know if these recordings ever surfaced? I would dearly like to hear them if they exist just to see what they regarded as inferior material. Compared to ABACAB, how bad could it have been? Anyone?


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"You never had the things you thought you should have had and you'll not get them now..."



Replies:
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: January 29 2014 at 22:41
Thank God, Allah or whoever they discarded material for ABACAB. What an awesome album by three guys who had the balls to change direction. ABACAB is a combination of prog, pop, R & B and even a lick or too of jazz, superb. Must because it was heavily influenced by some dude who played a weird groove with a band called Brand XApprove

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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]


Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: January 30 2014 at 01:25
^^ Also the Archive 2 set has nearly all their unreleased material, worth checking out

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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 30 2014 at 01:47
I would check out the song 'When The Light Went Out'. Must be one of the best Genesis songs an absolute belter. I reckon that would have been one of the discarded songs because there is a passage in it that recalls Suppers Ready era with a marching beat. I love it but I understand the 'parody' thing could have bothered them. 
Also Dodo/Lurker are only 2 parts of a longer suite. There was a beginning and end that got discarded. They can be found on the Archive 2 set as Chris mentions.


Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: January 30 2014 at 02:42
Interesting.
And I like most of the B-sides from the Duke/Abacab period, definitely including "The Day The Lights Went Out" but also "Vancouver"


Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: January 30 2014 at 02:44
ABACAB did little for me tho it was different approach. Any new material surfacing surely should have been released on the box sets by now I would have thought. Tho it may be worth researching 

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Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: January 30 2014 at 02:55
Originally posted by SquonkHunter SquonkHunter wrote:

I once read that Genesis had material for a full album that they discarded because "they sounded like a parody of themselves"and did the completely different ABACAB instead. Anyone here know if these recordings ever surfaced? I would dearly like to hear them if they exist just to see what they regarded as inferior material. Compared to ABACAB, how bad could it have been? Anyone?
All of these songs have surfaced:

Paperlate
Me & Virgil
Submarine
Naminanu
You Might Recall
Submarine
Etc



Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: January 30 2014 at 03:02
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I would check out the song 'When The Light Went Out'. Must be one of the best Genesis songs an absolute belter. I reckon that would have been one of the discarded songs because there is a passage in it that recalls Suppers Ready era with a marching beat. I love it but I understand the 'parody' thing could have bothered them.
The Day the Light Went Out is from the ATTW3 era in 1978. It appeared on the Many Too Many EP along with Vancouver (in the UK at least).


Quote
Also Dodo/Lurker are only 2 parts of a longer suite. There was a beginning and end that got discarded. They can be found on the Archive 2 set as Chris mentions.
People have recreated this on YouTube by joining Dodo/Lurker with Naminanu and Submarine.


Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: January 30 2014 at 03:03
Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Interesting.
And I like most of the B-sides from the Duke/Abacab period, definitely including "The Day The Lights Went Out" but also "Vancouver"
Both great songs but, as mentioned above, they date from the ATTW3 period Wink


Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: January 30 2014 at 04:58
Originally posted by Nov Nov wrote:

Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Interesting.
And I like most of the B-sides from the Duke/Abacab period, definitely including "The Day The Lights Went Out" but also "Vancouver"
Both great songs but, as mentioned above, they date from the ATTW3 period Wink

Um, yes, of course Embarrassed


Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: January 30 2014 at 04:58
Originally posted by Nov Nov wrote:

Originally posted by SquonkHunter SquonkHunter wrote:

I once read that Genesis had material for a full album that they discarded because "they sounded like a parody of themselves"and did the completely different ABACAB instead. Anyone here know if these recordings ever surfaced? I would dearly like to hear them if they exist just to see what they regarded as inferior material. Compared to ABACAB, how bad could it have been? Anyone?
All of these songs have surfaced:

Paperlate
Me & Virgil
Submarine
Naminanu
You Might Recall
Submarine
Etc


I like them all.
But keep in mind that I am an ATTWT / Duke / Abacab liker


Posted By: Genital Giant
Date Posted: January 30 2014 at 05:45
Abacab was a brilliant album, the best album they ever did as a trio. So count me happy.


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 30 2014 at 15:02
Originally posted by Nov Nov wrote:

Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Interesting.
And I like most of the B-sides from the Duke/Abacab period, definitely including "The Day The Lights Went Out" but also "Vancouver"
Both great songs but, as mentioned above, they date from the ATTW3 period Wink

not sure that it matters as its unlikely they recorded a whole album of discarded material in one go. It would have been discarded over a longer period I would have thought and probably what was being referred to.


Posted By: SquonkHunter
Date Posted: January 30 2014 at 22:19
Thank You all for the replies. It gives me a direction to pursue. I was really puzzled by the expression "a parody of ourselves". Strange way to phrase it. I believe I read it somewhere in an old interview with Mike Rutherford. He said that they were not satisfied with the material they had written and he was the one who suggested scrapping it all and doing something completely different, hence came ABACAB. 

I don't really mean to beat too hard on ABACAB. I tried to like it, really wanted to like it, but it just didn't do anything for me. I understand the desire to grow and do different things. No one wants to keep doing (or re-doing) the same thing over & over & over. This one particular album just didn't appeal to me, that's all. Strangely enough, I actually liked the single Paperlate even though it sounds like it should have been on ABACAB. Go figure, eh? Some of the other previously mentioned songs I am familiar with but many I am not. Time to get hold of them and see what they are about. 

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"You never had the things you thought you should have had and you'll not get them now..."


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 31 2014 at 01:15
I always thought Yes-  Going For The One (the whole album) was exactly this. Its when bands turn in on themselves instead of growing through external influence. That's how I see it. (btw I do like GFTO)


Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: January 31 2014 at 02:51
^ Funny how we mark the albums of change. GFTO used to be my fave Yes album and I always felt Tormato was the one that changed. In terms of Genesis, IT, there seemed to be some stagnation with the sound. All subjective of course. Most people would agree with Abacab yet I find it to be a bold move after Duke 

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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]


Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: January 31 2014 at 03:30
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Nov Nov wrote:

Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Interesting.
And I like most of the B-sides from the Duke/Abacab period, definitely including "The Day The Lights Went Out" but also "Vancouver"
Both great songs but, as mentioned above, they date from the ATTW3 period Wink

not sure that it matters as its unlikely they recorded a whole album of discarded material in one go. It would have been discarded over a longer period I would have thought and probably what was being referred to.
It doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things, I was just correcting an incorrect comment.

What was being referred to was specifically the extra music recorded during the ABACAB sessions. I have got interviews from that time when the guys state that they definitely did have enough material for a double album including a side long suite. This got me very excited at the time but unfortunately they abandoned the idea as they felt it was rehashing old ideas that they were keen to distance themselves from. A real shame in my opinion but there you go.


Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: January 31 2014 at 03:34
Originally posted by SquonkHunter SquonkHunter wrote:

Time to get hold of them and see what they are about. 
Yes indeed.

In particular, You Might Recall is a fantastic song and a great favourite amongst fans. Swap this onto Abacab instead of Whodunnit and it immediately becomes a far better album.



Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: January 31 2014 at 05:00
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I always thought Yes-  Going For The One (the whole album) was exactly this. Its when bands turn in on themselves instead of growing through external influence. That's how I see it. (btw I do like GFTO)

Aye - But this is amongst their finest releases - perhaps third behing Close and Tales...and is certainly up amongst the best 20 symphonic prog albums in history! Awaken is surely in the top 10 symphonic prog sub-epics of all time also !!! (sub-epic = track less than 18 minutes long but greater than 12 minutes)

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 02 2014 at 09:29
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I always thought Yes-  Going For The One (the whole album) was exactly this. Its when bands turn in on themselves instead of growing through external influence. That's how I see it. (btw I do like GFTO)

Aye - But this is amongst their finest releases - perhaps third behing Close and Tales...and is certainly up amongst the best 20 symphonic prog albums in history! Awaken is surely in the top 10 symphonic prog sub-epics of all time also !!! (sub-epic = track less than 18 minutes long but greater than 12 minutes)

Nothing wrong with perfecting your style,sound and approach. I don't like the compression (to my ears) on the production side but Awaken represents what Yes were totally about  (or certainly that was what Anderson believed)


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: February 02 2014 at 20:58
I don't know if what Genesis was trying to do before they went on the direction of ABACAB was a parody of themsleves... but I just can't imagine it being any worse than ABACAB ended up being. Except for the Dodo thing, there's just nothing I enjoy on that album. Even "Invisible Touch", another rather disliked album around here, had some moments I really enjoy. I guess I should be checking out those Archives box-sets, I'm rather interested in the extended version of Dodo.


Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: February 03 2014 at 01:06
^ ABACAB is worth revisiting. Try it in vinyl and boogie with Earth , Wind & Fire on No Reply At All

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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: February 03 2014 at 03:48
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I always thought Yes-  Going For The One (the whole album) was exactly this. Its when bands turn in on themselves instead of growing through external influence. That's how I see it. (btw I do like GFTO)

Aye - But this is amongst their finest releases - perhaps third behing Close and Tales...and is certainly up amongst the best 20 symphonic prog albums in history! Awaken is surely in the top 10 symphonic prog sub-epics of all time also !!! (sub-epic = track less than 18 minutes long but greater than 12 minutes)

Nothing wrong with perfecting your style,sound and approach. I don't like the compression (to my ears) on the production side but Awaken represents what Yes were totally about  (or certainly that was what Anderson believed)

I have to admit that when I heard GFTO (It was my introduction to Yes) I wasn't impressed (I suppose that it would be bout 1979) - but by 1981/82 yes were my favourite band.....it took me several years to "get" the music...

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: February 03 2014 at 03:58
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

I don't know if what Genesis was trying to do before they went on the direction of ABACAB was a parody of themsleves... but I just can't imagine it being any worse than ABACAB ended up being. Except for the Dodo thing, there's just nothing I enjoy on that album. Even "Invisible Touch", another rather disliked album around here, had some moments I really enjoy. I guess I should be checking out those Archives box-sets, I'm rather interested in the extended version of Dodo.


I quite agree with this. Abacab is imo a two star album, the only one beside their prematurely launched debut, with Dodo/Lurker as the only great song. I have heard these other songs and I think this would result in an album on par with Abacab but without any great songs. Paperlate is catchy, Me & Virgil is a nice one, You Might Recall the best of the bunch and the rest is crap.

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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: February 03 2014 at 16:57
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

^ ABACAB is worth revisiting. Try it in vinyl and boogie with Earth , Wind & Fire on No Reply At All



I guess someday I'll get around to listening to it again, but I really doubt I'll change my mind.


Posted By: Billy 7
Date Posted: February 05 2014 at 16:04
Abacrap!


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: February 05 2014 at 18:25
Once upon a time, I had developed a severe dislike for ABACAB - when I first got it during the late-80's I liked it, it was O.K. - then I hated it for years. I came back to it and kind of found some of it good, mostly average though. I gave it a 2 star review a few years back, listened to it several times since, and may have to re-assess the 2 star and up it to a 3. It's not that bad an album.


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 06 2014 at 07:15
I liked Abacrabs when it first came out though I didn't get a CD copy until 2002.  I still don't have Genesis or Invisible Touch on CD and have no plans to add those.  I've never had a copy of We Can't Dance on vinyl or CD.

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...




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