Understanding Moonchild
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Printed Date: April 27 2024 at 17:02
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Topic: Understanding Moonchild
Posted By: BaldJean
Subject: Understanding Moonchild
Date Posted: March 07 2014 at 20:16
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many people hate the track "Moonchild" from "In the Court of the Crimson King"; they call it "boring" or "pointless noodling". it is, however, anything but that. the long instrumental part is an attempt at expressing the lyrics with instrumental means alone. you can actually find every line of the lyrics in the instrumental section. not necessarily in the sequence they appear though, except for the last; this is the logic of dreams. I will give two examples for that; they may encourage you to go looking, or rather listening, for the rest. it is actually a lot of fun when you look at "Moonchild" from this angle and try to spot the lines. the line "dropping circle stones on a sun dial" is expressed from 6:10 to 7:10, with stones of different size. the line "playing hide and seek with the ghosts of dawn" can be found from 9:48 to 10:20. you can almost hear the Moonchild cry out "come and catch me" in that sequence. I could give more examples, but go and try to figure it out for yourself now. here a link to that track on YouTube: -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Replies:
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: March 07 2014 at 20:35
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I only rate 2 songs on the album. I rate 4 songs on Poseidon and 3 on lizard. So the debut is the weakest ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 07 2014 at 20:44
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dr prog wrote:Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 07 2014 at 20:51
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82112&KW=moonchild" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82112&KW=moonchild http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=59747&KW=moonchild" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=59747&KW=moonchild http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43865&KW=moonchild" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43865&KW=moonchild http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35938&KW=moonchild" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35938&KW=moonchild http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35758&KW=moonchild" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35758&KW=moonchild http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34616&KW=moonchild" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34616&KW=moonchild http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23668&KW=moonchild" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23668&KW=moonchild It's astonishing just how much debate this particular track has generated over the years and how much it polarizes opinion even amongst Crimheads. Although I do appreciate the cleverness in how the instrumental section mimics and audibly puns on certain aspects of the lyrics, that alone does not satisfy me on any given level of musicality. (Though I do like the sung portion) Yeah I know, it's my loss but I've never yet shaken off the suspicion that those earnest apologists for Moonchild might be guilty of intuiting the 'Music of the Spheres' from the sound of their own engines idling at a red light. 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 07 2014 at 21:10
| Have never thought about it that way though in any case I don't relate to the uproar over the second half of Moonchild. When I listen to it next time. |
Posted By: Wafflesyrup
Date Posted: March 07 2014 at 22:12
| I've never understood the debate. I love that track start to finish. |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: March 07 2014 at 22:24
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Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 00:23
I've never made a connection like that before, but obviously, that doesn't mean it's not there. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll take a look next time I listen. ------------- Want to play mafia? Visit http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com" rel="nofollow - here . |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 00:37
Only the fact that you've somehow never noticed that dr prog is a troll |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 01:12
I'll take a look next time I listen.
------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 02:31
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Its actually a very long time since I listened to the whole album. I tend to think of it as a bit of a relic anyway. A very important relic nonetheless. However the next time I listen to it I promise not to skip anything.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 04:15
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I suspect that apophenia (" the human tendency to seek patterns in random information") is at play here. All Moonchild needed was Christina Ricci tap dancing ------------- What? |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 07:56
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They should get you to write the 33˝ book about In the Court..., Jean.
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 08:08
since the title track starts almost attaca after "Moonchild" I also like to think the newly risen sun shines on the court of the crimson king which now slowly awakens ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 08:51
It doesn't matter how many people agree with you, we all can recognise familiar features in random patterns and we it is very likely we will all see something similar. When that pattern is an emotion such as a smile then you are invoking artistic licence in your interpretation that is unique to your personal interpretation (yes, I know major cords are happy chords but the "smile" line in the lyric is a rather forlorn line). Yes, I know music is capable of creating an image, pastoral setting in the Rite of Spring is not only self-evident (due to very easily recognised motifs) it was written to be like that. With free-form instrumental improvisation (and this section is called "The Illusion" after all, not "The Dream") it is inevitable that those improvisations would develop themes from within the vocal section, that is the nature of improvisation is it not? Weather that is a deliberate attempt to express those lyrics in sound only Robert Fripp can answer, but until such a pronouncement is made, I'm keeping an open mind to all theories, including any that can just as easily be attributed to apophenia. Remember that once you have been made aware of a apophenia pattern in random information it is impossible to un-see it. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Kentucky_Hawkwindage
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 08:59
| I always liked Moonchild-never tried to understand it in anyway just listened to it.I will say though when i program my CD of In The Court Of King Crimson to listen to when i go to bed Moonchild is always last,by the time it gets to Moonchild i'm generally fast asleep. I promise next time i listen to this track i will look,rather should say,will listen to understand where Bald Jean is coming from.I very mell might be missing something very noteworthy. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 09:08
I know all this very well, Dean. the problem is you can not distinguish apophenia from purposeful sound picturing unless you know about the purpose of the artist. would you call the thunderstorm in the fourth movement of Beethoven's 6th symphony apophenia? I hardly think so; we both know that this is meant to be a thunderstorm. yet probably everyone who listens to it for the first tme without knowing anything about it would probably have the same associations, don't you agree? ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 09:55
In the OP you state very authoritatively: " the long instrumental part is an attempt at expressing the lyrics with instrumental means alone. you can actually find every line of the lyrics in the instrumental section. not necessarily in the sequence they appear though, except for the last; this is the logic of dreams." You are not Bob Fripp and I'm still calling apophenia.
Actually, apart from The Rite of Spring, you probably could not have picked a better example than the 6th. The pastoral is what it says it is, an aural painting of a pastoral scene, a piece of programme music that was intended from its conception to portray a descriptive narrative. There is a thunderstorm in the allegro because Beethoven put it there, so of course it is not apophenia, (I'm beginning to think that you either don't know what this words means or you are just being deliberately argumentative because you hate being criticised), if people fail to see/hear this in the movement then either Ludwig wasn't doing his job well enough or those people have cloth ears. There is no secret in this thunderstorm, or any other part of the Pastoral, it is not something that Ludwig failed to mention that we have discovered years after the event. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 10:07
I thought about my words there. It sounded better than "I'll take a listen next time I listen." ------------- Want to play mafia? Visit http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com" rel="nofollow - here . |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 10:26
I know exactly what apophenia means. and I certainly am not Bob Fripp, but neither are you (or are you indeed and your avatar is a photo of your wife shutting her ears to one of your lectures?  ) so the question of whether it is just apophenia or not has to remain undecided.and there are a lot more examples of such kind of sound picturing in music history. my favorite is probably the aria of the genius of the frost in Henry Purcell's opera "King Arthur" ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 11:41
Correct. And at least you're now open to the possibility that is could be apophenia, so that's progress. So your assertion "the long instrumental part is an attempt at expressing the lyrics with instrumental means alone." is still a matter of personal interpretation and certainly not the matter of fact you initially stated it to be.
Of course there are, Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring is another and in Prog circles there's Pictures At An Exhibition (though personally I think Emerson misses the mark a tad), but we do not know that Moonchild "The Illusion" is one of them. ------------- What? |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 11:46
Dean, everything you, I and anyone says is a matter of opinion only. matter-of-fact statements should be left to the creator of this world, provided there is one, or to creation itself ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 11:48
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ta-dah! ------------- What? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 12:23
I've always liked Moonchild and never ran into anyone that hated it until this site. Say no more. Other than maybe I am a moonchild.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 12:48
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On a serious note, Moonchild's actually my favourite song on that album and I've always perceived a clear narrative structure to the improv section as BaldJean describes in the OP. Even though I'm not much into jazz and don't know much about music theory either. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 14:08
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Until Bald Jean mentioned her analysis of Moonchild it never crossed my mind it could be interpreted in that manner ,but I can certainly see why one might think that way. The instrumental avant garde section of it is my least favorite part of the LP but to me it's still interesting and not any less acessible imo than some of their other avant garde things from later lp's. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 16:41
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I don't really hate it but I don't really understand it either. Aside from the first two to three minutes it's very unempenetrable to me. I don't hear what the OP said was in there either. Apparently the old show tune "Surrey with a fringe on top" from Oklahoma is suppose to be inbedded in there somewhere also(or at least in certain versions) but again I didn't hear it. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 17:02
This mirrors my own thoughts. So even what's NOT there is a pop tune NOT a prog tune...but the silence between the tracks is clearly in 13/8 compound poly-meter can't you hear that, I mean it's obvious! paah   -------------
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 20:06
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I have heard all the arguments, read the dissertations and put in earnest effort many times, still sounds like pointless noodling to me. At best I hear experimentation solely for experimentation's sake. I doubt I will ever keep it going after the vocal. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 20:22
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Its one of my favorite sections of the album, the pointless noodling, nothingness, experimental jazzy jibberish is all good to me. How can you hear that "stuff" on youtube though ........ -------------   
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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 20:25
^ ... 'Cause it's the same track as on the album? ... 
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Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 21:30
Is that such a bad thing? We complain when prog bands experiment just for the sake of experimenting (TFTO comes to mind) yet we also grow irritated, even betrayed when prog bands go the other direction and write "pop music" and "sell out" for more money, so to speak. Anyway, I consider myself content with listening to what the artists have to offer. I just don't understand this other prspective. ------------- Want to play mafia? Visit http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com" rel="nofollow - here . |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 21:34
| ^ What is your idea of experimentation not for the sake of itself ? |
Posted By: The Mystical
Date Posted: March 08 2014 at 22:57
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I personally like the track. I don't see the need to over-analyse the music. ------------- I am currently digging: Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz! Please drop me a message with album suggestions. |
Posted By: MustardSea
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 05:23
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I always loved Moonchild, but I guess that's because I also love ambient/drone music. I always thought that the second part of Moonchild has a lot to offer when it comes to atmosphere - I listened to the shortened version on one of the latest ITCOTCK remasters and without the second part it's just a pretty pop song with nice lyrics.. The second part really elevates the whole thing to a new level and also sets the mood beautifully for the last track.. I wouldn't want to live without the whole of Moonchild, but that's just my opinion Also:
------------- http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=8335" rel="nofollow - Kanoi on PA http://kanoi.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - kanoi.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: Terra Australis
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 07:17
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I'm sure I read somewhere that someone from KC said it was an improv (can't remember where). KC have always improvised of course and were inspired to create some of their best music doing this. Not sure if Moonchild is their best improv though... While I like to listen carefully to music, sometimes it's best to go with the flow and Moonchild is one I just enjoy. Feel free to analyse it if you want to! :) ------------- Allomerus. Music with progressive intent. http://allomerus.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - http://allomerus.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 07:21
I am most certain it is an improvisation. but it is in my opinion an improvisation with a presetting: to try to capture the song lyrics ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Terra Australis
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 07:26
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^Fair enough! Enjoy... ------------- Allomerus. Music with progressive intent. http://allomerus.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - http://allomerus.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 07:27
There is nothing wrong with it especially when it sparks good ideas, but most of the time I get the feeling it's just the artist thinking, "Look how creative and different I am." So they will play anything that pops into their head, record it and call it brilliant.
That would be more of an exploratory approach with some kind of goal in mind. Think of classic scientific method. There is a theory and then that theory is tested. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 07:35
if you look at the way science developed you will find that many important discoveries were made because someone made an experiment without having any theory to be tested. the theory came after the surprising discovery. by the way: the word "theory" is wrong in this context. in science a "theory" is something which is well-founded by repeatable experiments or observations. if no experiments in that direction have been made yet scientists speak of a "hypothesis" ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 07:59
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Perhaps the issue here is really the presumption of understanding as if we know what the artist's intentions are in any piece of work. Maybe interpreting their intentions would be closer to the mark but would this make their art more enjoyable and/or accessible? I guess in the visual and written realm that is probably true (I've grown to love certain paintings and novels once they've been explained to me) but with music it's different. Yes, I think it may be clever that an instrumentalist disguises a quote from another tune, or plays nested tuplets and hemiolas, exploits the emotional leverage of tonalities and scales, implies a polyrhythm in 13/8 or deploys any number of skillful and playful punning techniques to mimic the themes in the lyrics etc but would knowing all that make the music sound better to me? Nah, music is perhaps the most abstract and textural of all the arts due to its inherent non-representational limitations (that possibly give rise to the sorts of fanciful speculation that surrounds something like Moonchild), I want to like the instrumental improvisation on this track but it always fails to move me or connect with me on any musical level whatsoever. No matter how brilliantly, eloquently and movingly you describe the flavour, a person who doesn't like the taste of oranges will not start eating them. -------------
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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 08:23
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 08:45
When a prog band finally develops an anti-toxin for rap music. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Kentucky_Hawkwindage
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 09:03
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Hmmmm-I've listened to Moonchild twice since the topic Understanding Moonchild arose.My conclusion is i still like the track but still have no understanding of it.Nor will i attempt any kind of interpretation. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 09:13
Perhaps the words I am choosing don't convey my thoughts very well. Hypothesis would probably be better. Experimentation is an extremely valuable tool but do I want to hear it? It's a subjective thing anyway. Although the comparison of Moonchild and TFTO does seem appropriate to my point. Moonchild appears to me as a bunch of guys playing around during a recording session. TFTO is the end result of the original ideas being fleshed out over time. Once again this is just the impression given when listening to the music. It has nothing to do with the actual history of the recordings. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 09:32
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Having listened to the album for over 40 years, I can honestly say in regards to "Moonchild" that after the first 2:30 of the song (which I enjoy), I go to smoke a cigarette. There are very few albums that have a built-in intermission. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 10:51
And this is the part that is difficult to work with and describe for Western music intelectuals and folks that think that music theory is the end all with it all in music, and that you can not create anything else in any other way.
LATER, it can be defined, but normally the answer is that something that is brought out of improvisation, and in this case a "guided" improvisation, might not fit in the descriptions of "music" because it is missing this and that and this and that!
We have to guard against that, unless what Holger and folks in various music schools in Germany were saying "not using Western Music concepts", and it gives you something new and different that sometimes defies description! We still have a terrible time accepting things outside the "norm", and think they are terrible and over rated, simply because we "don't get it!".
That's not fair to the music and their creators!
This is very similar to many concepts in those days in theater, to experiment, and come up with something new and totally different. KC, and this (and other songs) in the album succeeded TREMENDOUSLY, in giving us an album that had the best sense of the time and place of any other album out there, and it is because THEY LISTENED to what they were doing, and developed an inner reaction from it, that had nothing to do with music or your ideas or mine.
There is a film you must see. It's called "Meetings With Remarkable Men" and it is about Gurdgieff (sp!). And while a lot of it, kinda goes right by you and I very fast, there is an ending sequence that brings it all out. There is a "tuning" that can be achieved, that can not be done MENTALLY. It is done with your psyche. The problem is, you and I think that the psyche is your mind, and it is NOT. The result, is something that will astound and simply amaze you, and you spend your whole time trying to analyze it, and figuring out where it fits in your scheme of things. In the end, you can't even do that satisfactorily!
It also tells you that Robert Fripp was learning a lot from the processes in theater (specially Peter Brook and the RSC) and then later using similar exercises that Peter used with his actors to formulate a performance, the ultimate result of which was "The Mahabharatta" where the actors could not even understand or speak to each other, with a common language, and yet, you have a fantastic performance and play that is immesurably strong, though many folks would rather go enjoy inane entertainment.
That is the only issue with Moonchild!
If you try to bring it down to a song, you just killed it for yourself and its existence. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 11:02
I would slow down here.
This is like saying that you have to know love in order to be able to love! And that's not quite true. You can love, if you are willing to or not and give of yourself to the moment.
The song is about the "moment", and I do not believe it has anything to do with anything else. The harder issue is the title of it, and what it inferred, which is a different story altogether, and might and might not have anything to do with it all, which I do not think is as important.
But I doubt, that all arts are so detailed inside out as to be "apophenia". People have a lot inside, and sometimes we see it and sometimes we don't. Mostly we don't, and that has been the case since one man specified that "the father and I are one", and to this day, no one knows what that means, and it is right here in front of all of us! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 11:07
When you have the chance, read the play Marat/Sade. There is a fabulous discussion about this between Jean Paul Marat and the Marquis de Sade.
"I am the revolution"
"No. You are but a sick man that thinks about glory and dreams"
Sometimes, even the intentions are nebulous. How can we say that we have to understand a child's intention or nebulosity? Given them an instrument and watch!
I wonder if we have become too old and plastic to actually give any credence to different events that we have not felt, and sometimes are afraid to see and appreciate. This has been the role of all music, art and literature for me in my life. Remove the darkness that prevents you from seeing the rays of the truth and the life giving force! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 15:41
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Whenever people talk about this song, they always distinguish the vocal from the instrumental part. I do not think the line is that clear. The beginning of the instrumental section sounds composed to me, only moving into improvisation after about the four and a half minute mark. This means the song is not a mere 2 1/2 minutes long. I strongly suspect the improvisation is both edited and rehearsed. In other words, they ran through some ideas prior to committing them to tape. There are too many clear shifts, too much of a pattern, for me to think it was all totally off the cuff and purely in the moment. The improvs very well could have been based around the lyrics, but are of such a nature I think we could apply any segment to any lyric. But if that is the case, there might not be any improvisation in this piece at all - it is all composed. Dean makes a good point - not just Fripp, but the rest of the original Crims are the only ones who can tell us for sure what happened and what their intention was. And being the artists they are, they apparently have left the interpretations up to the listeners. And there is plenty of room for interpretation.
This topic has certainly compelled me to listen more closely to Moonchild, and I do not find the song as random as I had thought. Even though I do not entirely agree with BaldJean on this one, I find the approach intriguing. And this is what makes Moonchild a good piece of music - there is enough depth to it that one can hear different aspects to it, or find different qualities that are not immediately apparent. This puts it in the same category as much of abstract art, where the appreciation is in the eye of the beholder. In this case, of course, it is the ear. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 15:48
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Michael Giles drumming on it is soo god his cymcal work is tastefull -------------  
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: March 09 2014 at 16:03
| Another one in the wrong forum! |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 10 2014 at 14:13
Agreed, and very nicely stated.
The only issue I have with it, and it happens a lot in the ProgArchives, is that folks have a real hard time with "abstract", and even the early Krautrock and Miles Davis has a lot of that. English music, in general, was too mental by comparison, but it did have some, and I think that Canterbury ended up developing it more.
In the end, for me, that album is the best set of photographs for that time and place. You can put movies to each and every song, or songs from the radio, or art from the museums, or words from various literature, and voila. No album describes the late 60's any better than that one has for me! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 10 2014 at 14:49
Same here. I've revisited the track. I don't dislike it, but I remain unconvinced that the noodling section is anything more than just that. I guess only Fripp & co know what, if anything it 'means' ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: March 10 2014 at 16:25
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If this is true then lovely! Either way it sounds like a fun idea to actually do. I thought I read somewhere that the music was a response to the light/lightshow that was happening around them at the time. I suppose this makes more sense id this was a live happening...perhaps what I read was just early improvs by KC, not Moonchild itself. Or I'm making the whole thing up or drugs. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 11 2014 at 09:20
Knowing Robert, I doubt there were drugs around. Maybe some wine.
But the noodling, might or might not have any meaning, and sometimes we spend too much time figuring it out.
It's like being outside, you take a deep breath, and now you start the dissertation by Dean and his troops about what it does for your body and life. Sometimes it has no meaning, other than just a nice deep breath that felt good and envigorating and made you look up and enjoy the beauty of the sun coming up in the coast! There might be a "meaning" there, but it's not as important as the feeling you got from doing it! And I think that we try too hard, mentally, to explain something that we can't, but it must FIT INTO OUR CONCEPTS AND IDEAS! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 11 2014 at 11:16
If you know Robert, why don't you call him Bob?
It is good that we can always count on you not to think too hard. With the lower classes, we simply aspire not to think, but unfortunately we keep getting these damn ideas in our heads.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: March 11 2014 at 13:37
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I think the Wetton version of Crimson did it better with "Trio", but I think I've manged to make peace with this one. The little melodies that Fripp put in is enough to save it from being a low point in my book, plus it helps link "Epitaph" and "The Court Of The Crimson King". Is it enough for me to push In The Court Of The Crimson King back to 5 stars? Maybe, but then again, I'm a total nut for Pink Floyd's Ummagumma, which has a similar vibe to "Moonchild". ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: March 11 2014 at 21:48
I meant I was taking the drugs to come up with such a theory.  ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 12 2014 at 10:40
I hardly think class has anything to do with it. But it could be said that some rich classes have more time on their hands to pursue some things that some of us working classes rarely have a chance to do?
Sometimes!
And a lot of arts and artists are often well known for this! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 12 2014 at 12:14
So...understanding or appreciating Moonchild is about social status and class...?
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 12 2014 at 20:03
You're right. Class has nothing to do with this discussion. But you did provide a response that illustrated my original point.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:04
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------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:08
It makes a change, usually anything to do with understanding or appreciating abstract forms of music is presented from a perspective of elitism and delivered in a patronising manner... ------------- What? |
Posted By: Xonty
Date Posted: March 14 2014 at 17:11
Yes, I thought this when I read the post. Same thing has been said about the "Dark Side Of The Rainbow" (Dark Side of the Moon coinciding with The Wizard Of Oz). That always intrigued me. How did anyone even find that out?!
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 14 2014 at 17:24
Oh...well , that clears it up then.
btw....does anyone know whether or not Fripp has ever said the instrumental part was an improv piece or rehearsed to some degree?
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: March 14 2014 at 20:19
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I suppose it's like all other free music in a sense that you are listening to a musical conversation. That's the joy I get out of it anyway. It's very human music.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 15 2014 at 05:46
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You will never understand this song unless you go Dancing in the shallows of a river, Dreaming in the shadow of the willow, and Talking to the trees of the cobweb strange... ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 15 2014 at 06:37
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I suspect none of it means anything.. People were very stoned back then.. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 15 2014 at 06:44
Plus ca change -------------
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: March 15 2014 at 12:05
"Back then"? ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 15 2014 at 13:44
Serendipity. My guess was wife and/or girlfriend and/or significant other and/or life partner and/or mail-order bride is watching Wizzy Of Oz on Betamax tape while the master of the house was sat listening to an 8-track of Dark Side Of The Moon on headphones. By some astounding coincidence of cosmological proportions and a hefty dose of alcohol or some other inebriating substances the wigged-out listener notices the synchronicity of images that dance before his eyes as the music plays and thus a myth is born. If that is untrue then the only really (sad) alternative is that most prog fans have far too much time on their hands and precious little social-life. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 15 2014 at 13:47
A different sort of stoned perhaps..More sitting around talking nonsense about spirituality, and less sitting in front of the TV munching on Jaffa cakes in silence I jest of course. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: March 15 2014 at 13:49
Okay, you guys tricked me. This is an intervention, isn't it?!! ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: March 15 2014 at 14:09
There are plenty of folk around who do both of those things sober ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 15 2014 at 14:25
I sincerely doubt that most of this album, and any KC work, was centered around any drugs. The joke might be construed that a lot of their music simply isn't stoned enough!
And that's probably why it's called "progressive", and so many others aren't!
I believe that most of this album is a result of really good and well defined rehearsal processes and then very well defined moments in music that were created were simply made better. I'm not even sure that there was as much improvisation here as there is (and always was) on most of Robert's solo albums all around, as a comparison point. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: March 15 2014 at 17:35
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Personally, I see the instrumental segment of Moonchild as being less part of Moonchild itself and more connecting tissue between Moonchild and ITCOTKC. The song proper wraps up at around 2:25ish, and then you have this instrumental section which is basically, to my mind, a very early take on New Age relaxation music to get you nice and soothed and in this very tranquil state. This is excellent when you're listening to the album all the way through, especially on headphones, because when you let yourself drift to that section it really heightens the drama of the title track - when that first drum roll comes in it feels like the sky is falling on your head! The upshot of this is that the instrumental section doesn't quite work for me if listening to the song in isolation, because really if you just want to listen to the song itself it's done in the first two and a half minutes, but equally it's crucial for when listening to the album as a whole.
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Posted By: Prog 74
Date Posted: March 16 2014 at 15:58
| I think the point of Moonchild is merely to confound. It does provide a nice segue to The Court of the Crimson King though; especially on headphones. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 16 2014 at 17:32
I'd like to think it was just the product of good musicians doing a little messing around... ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 17 2014 at 09:23
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I'm going to ask again....but does anyone know if Fripp or the other original band members have commented on that song..? ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 17 2014 at 09:31
Or not messing around!
Either way it works!
Rehearsal techniques in theater and film, are just like this! And sometimes, things happen that are totally different and off center, and they work just fine! And someone in that group, likely Robert, has a good sense for those moments and is capable of making sure they "live" and get more attention!
I don't see that as a "secret". But it is a "talent", when you can recognize the moments. Cinematographers LIVE for that second in film!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 17 2014 at 09:43
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Nicely balanced appraisal of the Moonchild from Eric Tamm's unjustly neglected book here http://www.progressiveears.com/frippbook/ch04.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.progressiveears.com/frippbook/ch04.htm -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 17 2014 at 09:46
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"I'm an awkward silence" give me strength...
------------- What? |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 17 2014 at 13:16
Thanks for the link.....it was an interesting piece.
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 06:17
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I love "pointless noodling", nothing wrong with "pointless noodling". Often a lot more interesting than "fast as possible guitar playing" (drumming or whatever). A lot better than "trying to sound like", not to mention "worked well last album, lets try that again" ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 07:26
Why is slow or medium paced purposeless playing superior to very fast purposeless playing and the emboldened part, erm..on their debut? -------------
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 07:28
Yes, one would think fast-paced pointless noodling would be better; after all, it's over quicker. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 08:43
Maybe that is the reason why the album is remembered, instead of it just being like everyone else's where the music sounds exactly the same in 4 songs, so you can call it metal, symphonic, or idiotic!
 It's getting to the point that we, the supposed fans< don't even allow different things anymore?
Very scary!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 08:52
There are some excellent things here, and one of them is a bit of a breakdown on the rehearsal process, that in the end, Robert states 4 individuals that didn't know what they were doing. I find that a bit exagerated, because that's like saying that you have to know music to compose, and we know that's not true, by rock music itself and its history, not mentioning jazz! That would be one of his over the top, leave me alone style comments!
However, later, the article quoted John Cage and K Stockhausen, and there is a bit in there that is important in rehearsal for improvisation techniques. Learning how to work with silence. In advanced acting stuff, this is the hardest thing to put down with Harold Pinter (for example) and doing it with music, is DEADLY, and SCARY for most folks, if you do not KNOW, or UNDERSTAND, what it is that you are doing, and this is where a director, an external person, is really helpful. Most rock bands rely on recording or taping to get this far, but in the end, they are only looking at changing different notes and the like in the music itself, not working the "experience" that the music creates.
The nice bit, that is the part that Dean likely won't buy, is the silence one, when you are not "thinking", which is a well known meditation exercise. If you are thinking the continuation is "obvious", and when you are "not", the whole thing takes on different dimentions, as your reactions show. This is a master exercise for super advanced acting classes and you will find the RSC or National Theater work with these spot on time and again, because you can see the details and clarity of their responses. There is no "trickery" to learn that. It is an inner response that can be taught some, but you don't want to "learn it" because it takes away the moment itself.
Improvisation is not about what you see. It's about what you do not see, or can conceive. Without that part, it is useless and a fruitless exercise. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 08:54
I said I prefer "pointless noodling" over "fast as possible guitar playing"
About the emboldened part, I was not comparing ITCOTCK with ITCOTCK:
I said I prefer "pointless noodling" over "worked well last album, lets try that again"
In both cases I was refering to the OP's reference to Moonchild beeing accused of beeing "pointless noodling",
trying to defend that "pointless noodling" often turns out to be wonderfull music, compared to other methods of music creation. (fast as possible guitar playing" "trying to sound like", "worked well last album, lets try that again")
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 09:00
Thank you! I appreciate a lot!
And how well this also worked for Can, Amon Duul 2 and others! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 09:22
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 09:43
Perhaps you are right, and a man's right to pointlessly noodle is an inalienable right that should not be trammeled by fripperies such as purpose, intent or structure. Tom Verlaine (who admittedly has some 'previous' as a noodler) perhaps expressed this futile course best : I want a nice little boat made out of ocean You're clearly a hippy. -------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 10:08
What is weird'r is that Burroughs talked about "52 pickup" which became well known in Bowie/Eno and many other circles for lyricists, which was similar to what Holger Czukay did on Tago Mago. You grab this and that and this and that ... and glue it back sideways, and there you have it.
I do not think that we accept the reality that things like that DID HAPPEN, and many times we dismiss it as child's play, and yeah, many musicians might not like to talk about it, because it did not require "musical talent" which their music now DOES. And I think that idea of "no talent" or "no ability" scares a lot of folks, that try, instead to infuse it with NOTES, or fake EMOTION to make you believe that it is important! And this is the side that makes "progressive" harder to define and discuss, without us all getting so damn stuck up on our own musical ideas! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 11:46
| The improvisation section is centered around creating visuals for the listener ...because of the nature of the playing style on each individual instrument. Not in all cases is this concept of writing intended to be for anyone in the musicians mind. Other times it is ..for example in the case of Robert Fripp. So actually, I would have to say that the music is closely related to theatre production. The style of writing is on the poetic side with Pete Sinfield and the atmospheric sounds produced on instruments along with dynamics which are full of drama...very much in the same vain of a composer who reads a script and creates music to build up the emotions of the actor's role. Or an actual composition written for a play. I.T.C.O.T.C.K. has that mentality of work involvement. Fripp had great ideas and he was truly creative about it. This style of writing though...has existed for centuries and it has been more experimented with over the last 5 decades and defined as a term that is modern to society. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 12:23
Hmm....that works for me , almost like a soundtrack embellishment for a specific scene in a film. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 12:37
| In the Court of the Crimson King was pretty "well thought out" obviously because Pete Sinfield and Robert Fripp were part of the band. Don't doubt it. Ian McDonald was a perfectionist and composed the music which was more vital to the album and it's originality. It was a band that concentrated more on writing and the sections of improvisation fell between. In some cases ..one particular musician in a band will already have the flow of the album in their head. From the very start, they know that they want to compose a drawn out piece like "Epitaph" to close side 1 of the album. This can all materialize by 1 individual having an idea. Fripp fully understands how to write music concepts and already conceiving the foundation of it before putting it on to tape. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: March 18 2014 at 12:45
I will not try to speculate on what you are. If it makes you feel good to declare what you think I am, its fine with me, but it does not change this debate. There is no evidence that music is better if the artists had purpose, intent or structure, in Jazz it is the norm, that you have very little purpose, intent or structure, to get a situation where the performers “compose” as much as possible in the process of playing.In rock music you have the same thing happening, with some bands, King Crimson is one of them. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: ebil0505
Date Posted: March 21 2014 at 23:07
That . . . was beautiful 
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 22 2014 at 14:04
You want to be careful here. What the audience sees/gets, has nothing to do with the actor/actress/musician. Conversely, what the actor/actress/musician thinks is not also what the audience picks up!
It never is, and this is the one thing that we deceive outselves on all the time. When you think you got this across, something else came across that you did not catch or see at all!
Improvisation is about helping find a/the/any "moment", and how to work with it. In the end, that "moment" is centered around "attention" and your ability to absorb and respond. Improvisation is not just about words, as some theater groups tend to make you think, and when you watch "What's my line?" you can tell right away what the "process" is, which is almost all sequential based on the physical movement, or last words.
For these music examples, it is not what this is about, and it is much more elaborate and way further than the fun exanple that Dean gave us that fit the "What's My Line?" show than it did in music, or a serious acting/film rehearsal, where you ALREADY have a flow, and you simply have to find "details" inside that "flow" that allow you to say your lines/music in a much better defined context.
Only the best of "actors" get to the advanced stage, mnore like 1 out of 40 from your acting school or the like, and the same is for music, and the main reason is because these folks have the ability to zero in the "moment" and make it better. Without that ability to get that far, and learn more, so you have more to work with, only means that your output will be grossly limited.
Thx ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |