Prog Song Structure
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=97807
Printed Date: April 25 2024 at 06:48
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Topic: Prog Song Structure
Posted By: The Mystical
Subject: Prog Song Structure
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 05:22
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Progressive epics often follow unconventional structures, but is there a common formula? It is hard to pinpoint exactly what makes a prog epic coherent. Thoughts? Is there a common prog epic structural formula? What do you think of prog song structures? What is your favourite prog song structure? ------------- I am currently digging: Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz! Please drop me a message with album suggestions. |
Replies:
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 07:42
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Many celebrated Prog epics are no more than very skillfully and ingenuously segued arrangements of individual musical fragments that still conform to traditional song structures e.g. Supper's Ready and Close to the Edge. That's not to denigrate these brilliant pieces of music but we've been deluding ourselves now for 40 years that such arranging skills represent the classical music of the future. Enough already Other pieces like Karn Evil 9 by ELP follow a more academic approach where the musical themes and motivic ideas are subject to the developmental rigor of classical forms as deployed by Janacek, Stravinsky, Bartok, Sibelius et al. This does not make them better of course it's just a different approach. And no, Karn Evil 9 ain't the classical music of the future either Cue an impenetrably oblique rebuttal from Moshkito  ------------- 
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 09:47
| aababcbdcabdbcdadcbdcdbdebdcbadcbdcdabdcebfbcdaba |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 10:07
| According to Jem Godfrey most bands have got the memo from prog central. With his band Frost he tried to to get away from the typical structure of Suppers Ready by darinlngly stick a fast instrumental bit at the end of Milliontown (shock horror!). There is always the quirky bit , a fast bit , a taking stock of things bit followed by a slow building anthemic climax. Its been done a thousand times (okay slight exaggeration) . That is also what Exitthelemming is saying I think. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 10:11
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Here ya go...........
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/HowTo:Write_a_Progressive_Rock_Song" rel="nofollow - http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/HowTo:Write_a_Progressive_Rock_Song
 Getting serious ,just for a moment, I like the longer ones that start with a melodic theme, go into some more avant garde bits and instrumentation then reprise with the melody again at the end, but then I'm a sucker for a good melody. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 10:48
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(duplicate) ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 10:58
In the end, the history of music, up until the mid 20th century has been almost nothing but a discussion of what "melody" is, and how much more could be added or subtracted from the melody!
A lot of the "progressive" things, was a strong attempt at making changes in that process, otherwise, what is the point of rock music? Just sales of the same old merde, but done in electric stuff instead of accoustic?
This is a lot easier to see if you look at it from a historical perspective in the history of music.
I would rather, honestly, that the long cut was TOTALLY INCOHERENT, which for the past 75 years has been very important. Many a composer was booed and not appreciated for their work, because it did not sound melodic and the same as the previously "KNOWN" stuff.
You are defaulting, to the same thing, and that kills what "progressive" is all about.
Stop a minute and think about it! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
moshkito wrote:Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 11:03
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 11:26
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AND it should! There are far too many bands that shouldn't even be considered, although I would feel sad myself, for the many bands that I like, but that's all they really are ... very nice music, and nothing but very nice music! I like to separate Pedro the fan, from the rest. I don't think that many folks do this, and thus the borderline things get added, and the focus is on the albums, not the artists, and I think that is totally wrong. We don't judge Beethoven, Stravinsky or Debussy, on one piece, or album. We do that on a whole bunch of their work. As I have said before, the definition of "composer" will likely change in the next 100 years, and a group, will be considered as valuable as a single person, and then one can value their "total" body of work, as opposed to one album and the rest is sheep dip! This is one of the reasons why I would like to see PA adopt a top 100 progressive artists, not albums, so that one person can not have 5 albums, and could be ranked higher than one with a single album because of the number of entries. But PA is a "database" and there is no group of folks more lazy in the working of code than that group. What is essentially an easy sort, all of a sudden becomes a burden, because you don't feel like doing it, and it is just easier for you to do your part in the whole company/process. I can relate to the time needed to help ... that many of us can not afford. But then, they are not always asking the right people, either! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 11:32
It goes without saying that no-one wants to hear formulaic music that merely repeats what has gone before but most enduring musical forms and structures progress and evolve through a process of gradual refinement, revision and polishing. That's how we've advanced historically from say, the monophony of plainsong to the contrapuntal apex of Bach etc Not everything has to be completely unprecedented, innovative and original to have a lasting value, Just because controversial innovation can be deemed incomprehensible or totally incoherent does not by itself confer a value on such art. Every year can't be year zero and you can get totally incoherent from any mental institution of your choosing. (Choose wisely )
OK, so are you offering your services to improve the database used by PA and if so, do you have any concrete proposals that will actually bring about the changes you state are required? -------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 12:01
Been there, and done that! And volunteered more than once only to be shot down.
It's up to them. I hope to retire soon and will gladly spend more time on it, but not interested in a bunch of folks that only like RUSH or KANSAS and don't think music anywhere else in the world is a valid attempt at creating music simply because it never got to the radio station in Podunk, North Dakota!
That, is a difference that the Internet is helping us learn and work with, but the definitions and desire to understand the different music's is still totally ethnocentric and sad, and sometimes, it's outright English Imperialism! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 12:40
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Art Rock = traditional structuring, tweaked from "1" to "11" (Symph, etc.) Progressive Rock = anything goes (RIO/Avant, etc.) Is this what people are beginning to lean towards? I'd rather just enjoy the music and tasty sounds. There's nothing "progressive" in that sense about a band like, say, the guys in my avatar, but I like that particular "sound" and their music too much to make it a concern. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 05 2014 at 18:10
Not sure if you were aware but I was being a tad sarcastic, I didn't expect you would have any concrete proposals. The charges of ethnocentrism leveled at PA could be more a result of your misinterpretation of the sequence of events rather than any underlying reality. Most credible authorities would agree that what we recognise as Progressive Rock had at its core the seeds of an English cultural phenomenon. I'm not claiming this as an irrefutable fact or not subject to debate and I'm not English but I think it broadly true.Why do you insist that those who hold this view have some sort of covert racist agenda? Prog's progenitors the Moody Blues, the Nice, King Crimson, Procul Harum, Pink Floyd, Arthur Brown at al emerged from the same cultural milieu and their art would of course reflect that it's the soil that begets the fruit etc. Consider that Rock'n'Roll, Jazz and Country Music are American art forms at the source yet all have now gone global and we quite rightly celebrate the diversity with which the rest of the world invests these forms into new permutations. Would you have us believe that their assimilation into other cultures is the result of an engineered imperialistic colonization of their indigenous arts? (though spellcheckers certainly qualify dammit) Of course not, the sea refuses no river. Why should it be any different for Prog? One of the most significant obstacles to overcoming racism is the contemporary progressive mindset of people such as yourself (a.k.a.left wing multi culti Guardian readers/the BBC - see Pat Condell for more details) who like to imagine that a handicapped golfer is the apex of equality. If you call people ethnocentric and imperialistic you will only succeed in getting back the sort of confirmation bias you clearly crave to cement your own cherished delusions. Bravo, a win - win situation  -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 00:29
| ^^^ Sorry, but I have a slight disagreement here. If prog rock is sought to be bound forever to its purported British cultural roots, then it should be called British prog rock music or British rock or British whatever. Incorporating extended instrumental sections within predominantly rock based music was hardly the sole preserve of late 60s British bands so there's no need to insist on this as the source or base. While I would certainly not go to the extremes Pedro does here, I wonder if maybe some lazy conformity to old notions of what prog rock used to be is at work here. For instance, just because Krautrock is a very different kind of music from British symph prog doesn't mean it's not progressive. Er, to then bring up the wrinkle that it's progressive but not prog rock only compounds the semiotic confusion. These 'definitions' are not sacrosanct and there's a lot more to prog rock than just symph prog so there's no need to cling to that idea of prog as if it's the only worthwhile or reliable one. And if you insist you wish to cling, then that's your choice but don't deny it. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 02:37
Kraut was / is progressive, experimental and avant-garde without a qustion. It just wasn't a part of British progressive rock movement. That's the same with American, French, ex-Yugoslavian or Scandinavian progressive rock bands & solo artists; they were progressive rock without a question, but far away from British prog rock movement (scene). Actually, the progressive rock was started first in America with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freak_Out!" rel="nofollow - Freak Out! the album by The Mothers of Invention, released in June 1966. Imo, British prog rock started with Strawberry Fields Forever / Penny Lane the single released in 1967; then Music In A Doll's House by Family was released in 1968 as very important album but underrated and (or) overlooked at the present day, and finally British prog rock movement got its corner stone with ITCOTCK in 1969. But, The Mothers of Invention were started first; that's the truth and there's not another truth. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 02:44
| Well said and I agree. As in I don't really know any older rock albums than Freak Out that could qualify. Maybe there are, wouldn't rule it out. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 03:03
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^ I've already stated that the view of Prog's cultural
source being English is not beyond debate and is certainly open to
further investigation but just found it interesting that there is now a
substantial body of written research and publications which support this
view. I'm not sure you understand the important difference between
British and English? (I was born in Glasgow so I'm Scottish and
British but certainly NOT English - that's maybe like confusing an
American with a Canadian? I dunno where you're from or much care
frankly. I don't recall making any reference to the difference between progressive and Prog and don't even see the relevance. Nor have I stated or even implied that English Prog is in any way superior to any other Prog from any other part of the world. Similarly, the inference that music that does not resemble English Symphonic Prog cannot be deemed progressive is entirely of your own making. Not sure why you're just making up stuff that I haven't even said? It seems that as soon as there is speculation as to the cultural origins of any artistic phenomenon those furthest removed from the source all get a bit defensive, paranoid and feel excluded. There are no judgements being handed out here and no-one is denigrating the Progressive Rock that has been created outside the cramped confines of late 60's England. Are all the bands I've named Symphonic Prog? (I don't think so but as you say the definitions are not sacrosanct) I think the reason Prog Rock doesn't get called British Prog Rock is for the same reason that Country and Western isn't prefaced with American Country and Western i.e. both are global phenomena because neither are bound by their cultural roots. (For the sake of clarity, that's a good thing) BTW what it is exactly that I shouldn't be denying? 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 03:36
Er, thank you very much. I do know that British and English are not the same thing. I however used the word British because 'Canadian' is clearly excluded from 'American' while English is not likewise excluded from British, it is a subset as is Scottish. Moving on...
Er, perhaps you don't recall or would not like to recall but you did say in the other thread on funk that you do not consider Krautrock prog. That is a curious statement because a lot of Can's work for instance is (a) based around more unorthodox structure than the typical rock verse-chorus pattern and (b) is very much rock-related. I am speculating that the reason for saying so is holding on to a fixed notion of prog defined in the, ermmm, English image of it.
I am not making up anything, only deriving the implied meaning of your comments in this thread. Krautrock has very little to do with English prog rock music but it is nevertheless prog in a broader sense. If you hold the view that the origins of prog rock are English (and you said you do), then that automatically excludes Krautrock and probably also a lot of other European prog. Italian prog for instance, while influenced by English prog, is often more classical and less rock-based and is in substance a very different music. I do not know if the research you alluded to has also considered why say Krautrock or American prog should not be part of the source but both these genres developed parallel to English prog chronologically speaking. Hence, unless it is clarified that prog only refers to English prog, it IS very confusing to insist that the cultural source of prog is English. Further, the problem doesn't only end with music that was recorded at the same time as the early English prog. What about prog rock made later that is not strongly related to English prog rock music? Going by your approach, it would have to be excluded as well.
Very good. Thank you for not bothering to read what I wrote. I have not alleged any imperialism or racism here. All I said is I sense some laziness and inertia in preferring to hold on to a widely held view even if its accuracy is questionable. My concerns are more semiotic and in calling them defensive or paranoid (and also double triple jumping to the conclusion that it must have to do with my own cultural origins), you only raise questions of your own defensiveness about the whole thing.
Maybe, but you unfortunately choose to go even further to exclude prog rock created outside England that does not bear a clear relation to that music from the ambit of prog rock. So that's even worse than denigrating it. And coming to the last para...
Sorry but these aren't nearly comparable. Country is in fact very strongly connected to its cultural roots and if it didn't imply something very specific, it wouldn't make sense....every country has its own, er, country music as in music played in the countryside. The same cannot be said of prog rock. To this day, it continues to be defined in very broad, inclusive terms that only require a certain degree of ambition and openness to long form while operating largely within the boundaries of rock. Such a broad definition is not compatible with the assertion that prog's roots are English for it then becomes much more specific. As I said, I am not averse to Englishmen wanting to celebrate their achievement but please call it English prog rock music in that case.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 03:42
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I agree with Iain (and in his defence he was replying to Roger and Pedro in the same breath so his comments of imperialism, ethnicity and racism were more in response to Pedro's assertions and your follow-on comments)
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 03:46
Is that really a defence? I mean, if I come in subsequently in a thread to say something in disagreement with someone without agreeing with someone else who alleged imperialism, then I too must necessarily have alleged imperialism? Wow...that totally rocks! 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 03:51
Sorry. Perhaps "defence" was the wrong word. ------------- What? |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 04:46
Yes, I think your concerns are semiotic. I've never considered Krautrock to be Prog but would certainly acknowledge it is experimental and challenging, progressive music much of which I adore. It is no lesser an artistic phenomenon just because I don't consider it to be Prog but although I can discern some of the ingredients of Krautrock in Prog, I cannot testify to the opposite being true (but that just might be me) You can derive whatever meanings you like from what I write but it doesn't make your conclusions demonstrably true. I do accept that musical developments in countries outside England would have been pivotal in the subsequent developments and directions of Prog Rock but I still believe the consensus view that it's origins are predominantly from English culture. The following authors also arrive at the same conclusion and do attempt with varying degrees of success, to explain the reasons from a cultural, social and economic perspective: Music Of Yes: Structure and Vision in Progressive Rock - Bill Martin Listening to the Future: The Time of Progressive Rock 1968-1978 - Bill Martin Rocking the Classics: English Progressive Rock and the Counterculture - Ed McCannThe Progressive Rock Files - Jerry Lucky Beyond and Before: Progressive Rock since the 1960's - Paul Hegarty Citizens of Hope and Glory : The Story of Progressive Rock - Stephen Lambe Yes is the Answer (and Other Prog Rock Tales) - Marc Weingarten The Strawberry Bricks Guide to progressive Rock - Charles Snider There are others but I ain't read them. I also acknowledge that just because I cannot find a tome that asserts Prog Rock's origins lie predominantly outside late 60's England does not mean it can't be true. Yes, Country does have a strong connection with its roots (as all folk music does) but American folk music (or broadly Country and Western if you prefer) is a global phenomenon unlike say, French, Italian or Eastern European folk music. The reason for that it is not bound (restricted/curtailed/limited/forestalled - you choose) by its cultural roots. On a lighter note, if country music can be reduced to' music played in the countryside' we can but pray you don't embark on a historical analysis of cock rock. -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 04:50
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Nothing is created in isolation. Every music style and music scene develops from the influences that are around it and adds its own cultural leanings on those influences. The entire music scene world-wide was in a state of flux in the late 60s, and all of it was influencing each other. England took influence from America and America in turn took influence from what was happening in England. Those in Europe (most notably Germany, Holland and Italy) took influence from what was happening in England and America and infused it with what was happening in their local scenes. And that includes Zappa and the Mothers, Iron Butterfly, Jimi Hendrix, The Nice, Soft Machine and Pink Floyd. Even the Psychedelic pop-culture of The Monkees and The Beatles played a part in taking what was happening in England and America (or specifically London and San Francisco) underground scenes and bringing it to wider public attention. [The Underground Scene is something of a misnomer anyway]. Trace elements of all those can be found in the emergent post-Psychedelic music scenes of Europe and Scandinavia. Yet nothing that was happening at that post-Hippy/Psychedelic time was a coherent, identifiable style of music: no two English bands were alike; no two German bands were alike, and none of this could be called Symphonic or Krautrock (or Kosmische Musik). They all branched off in different, parallel directions that we later (in the early 70s) grouped back together under the banner of Progressive Rock and the subsets of Symphonic Rock, Krautrock, Canterbury Scene etc. So what we have is a high degree of lazy categorisation. Some German bands dismiss the Krautrock tag (and rightly so) and some English bands have dismissed the Prog Rock tag (famously: Robert Fripp and David Gilmour). However, without the English Progressive Rock scene, (that began in the late 60s and developed in the first 3 years or so of the 70s), Progressive Rock as an umbrella term would not exist and many of the subsequent styles of music that draw upon that scene would not have developed as they did. They would have developed of course, that cannot be denied, but not in the way that they did and I doubt we'd be spending a Sunday morning 40 years later arguing the toss if they hadn't. Even the introduction of Krautrock (Can, Amon Duul II, Tangerine Dream, etc.), Dutch Prog (Focus, Supersister, Ekseption, etc.) and Italian Progressive Rock (PFM, Le Orme, New Trolls, etc.) to a world-wide audience can be directly attributed to the rising popularity of the Progressive Rock music from England (and later Britain).
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 04:51
That is all, thank you. And as for the conclusions, as I already said, they are derived ones. I know you didn't say it expressly but that would be the implication of tying prog rock to supposed English origins. You may not agree with that and that is your choice but that is how I see it.
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Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 04:54
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So no structure then? I think there are many and various forms and adaptations. Prog rock is about what is being said musically and if a fluent instrumental section turns up (playing Genesis at the moment) then why get him to stop because of a chorus that really needs to be sung. It's more of a social cultural thing. Prog rock is head trip music not dance (guitar break in Aqualung notable exception ) and so the requirements are different. This is why it has so many symphonic features - very nifty when a harmony is set up in a section that comes to fruition in the next but that's not often.This is probably where punk, the industry and conformist media make there more unwelcome presence felt. Force prog to a formula so it can be understood, marketed and everyone can meet their deadlines and get to the pub. Structural identity might be more understood were prog to have the same sort of classical terms allegro, andante, molto presto, largo that identify the pieces in many classical works. Of course that's not very rock and roll which is very reactionary and constricting. What's more you get a higher royalty if pieces are identified by titles- which is why early KC got subtitles. Sort of 21st Century mezzanine Man... ground breaking... Anyway if there is a formula ABACAB style (one might think Am9?) the first to get really annoyed are prog rock fans. So I'll conclude this largo section with a nyet, no pop song structure, just forms and imagination closer to classical music. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 04:54
I am not denying the influence of English prog rock as not just a genre but a culture of the 60s and 70s on the larger prog rock movement. But there is still a difference between highlighting England as undoubtedly one of the most important or even THE most important originator of prog and between saying prog rock's cultural origins are English and English alone. As you have conceded, prog rock of some sort could well have come about without the English scene's existence and that is all that I wanted to convey. To make a statement that prog's cultural origins are English without reference to America or Germany is very restrictive (and in my view inaccurate).
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:01
Ok point taken. It's been fun. Wasn't this thread about the structure of long winded, tangential, labyrinthine pompous Prog epics?
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:02
This brings to mind the popular BBC Light Service radio programme of the 1960s called Country Meets Folk. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:17
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:18
^
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:18
Yup. But what is there to say? There isn't a predefined format that all adhere to, many can perhaps be over-analysed as re-structured or extended forms of simpler(!) rock song structures, but there are no rules for that either. I agree with you that most of it is skilful arrangement. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:43
*back off topic* I do question how "Prog" any of it would have been without that early influence from the English scene. How Prog would the Italian scene have been without ELP, Gentle Giant, Van der Graaf Generator and Genesis? How Prog would the Dutch scene have been without Jethro Tull, Soft Machine, ELP and The Nice? How Prog would the German scene have been without Pink Floyd, Soft Machine and Hawkwind (not withstanding that a lot of Krautrock's rock influence comes from VU, Zappa and Hendrix, the space rock is undeniably from Floyd and to a lesser extent Hawkwind)? [Eloy without Floyd?] ------------- What? |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:50
| No doubt the Dutch and Italian scenes, esp Dutch, were heavily influenced by British prog and arguably owed their very existence to it. But I wouldn't go nearly that far with krautrock. Psychedelic rock was hardly exclusive to UK, it emerged at roughly the same time in USA as well. Jefferson Airplane would have done very well as source material in the absence of Floyd. Would Krautrock have been somewhat different in such an event? Possibly, but it could well have been prog of some sort as the work of minimalist composers was not dependent on Pink Floyd. The timing of Doors development as a band is also too close to PF to say they could not have come about without the latter and they too would have been fertile material for Krautrock. Strange Days (the track, that is) does have a strong Krautrock flavour to it, except it's before Krautrock. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:02
| It is not outside the realm of sanity to say strong signs, symptoms, even clear evidence of early progressive rock can be found in America well before Floyd, Emerson, or even Zappa. Rock started in the US, it follows rock that progresses would also. But as with all good ideas that no one seems to want to pick up on, someone picked the ball up and never let go. England and America have a fine tradition of freely taking from the other and making better of it. It happened with comix in the '90s, too. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:13
And I may add that the critics in both countries seem to have had a fine tradition of running down music from the other side. I used to think it was more about American critics being too harsh on English rock music and then I came across a very scathing review of a Steely Dan concert in UK (London, I think). I wouldn't have read too much into it but for the fact that the opening para was almost wholly devoted to a rant on American bands being overhyped and failing to live up to their billing while UK bands are much more dependable and yet get ignored. Something of the sort, can't seem to find the link right now.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:15
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^^ Like I've stated before, my mind is not necessarily closed to this idea but it seems odd that here we are in 2014 and although Prog Rock is not that well documented a topic, the weight of published opinion appears to contradict the idea. From memory, I think the majority of the authors I referenced were British/European, so what we need perhaps is a well researched Prog history from an American perspective. After all, it's only fairly recently that the prevailing orthodoxy has taken hold that Punk was an American phenomenon imported to the UK by the likes of Malcolm McLaren. (A reality that really upset most of my Scottish punk pals back in the day) -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:18
| I wanted to ask you earlier about the 'origin' of the authors too. I am neither American nor British and am not willing to discount the importance of American pyschedelic rock as an influence. Can for instance cite Velvet Underground as one of their chief influences on the rock side of things. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:24
Agreed-- the Punk thing is interesting, to me Punk is British through-and-through. I think the issue is that rock is without doubt entirely American and so you have all incarnations in this enormous country at any given time. The notion that some US bands were playing a kind of punky rock in, say, the mid-60s, is entirely possible but Blighty still would win the contest of where Punk as we know it started, it seems to me. Probably Prog as well but it is less clear, which also makes it much more interesting. |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:26
It sure was...is! Always fun listening to you guys rant though. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: The Mystical
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:33
It's simply about prog song structure. ------------- I am currently digging: Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz! Please drop me a message with album suggestions. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:34
Wait up David, we misunderstand one another?. Punk WAS an American phenomenon, it originated in the USA (Richard Hell from Television/Voidoids/Heartbreakers was the guy who came up with the ripped clothing and spiky hair ideas) -------------
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:44
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Prog rock (long song structures) Usually when I listen to a Prog rock epic that is 20+min i can hear where a song breaks off or changes direction. That usually means that up until that point happened (major transition) that sub section or suite of the song finished and then transitioned into something else. Quite simply put, epics or long songs are broken down into parts and divided into scales (for those that can actually read sheet music! Lol). Rush Did it with Cygnus book 2 X-1 and vowed never again to record a song in this fashion ever; hence which is why the more Succinct Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures followed. It's demanding, but I think it's the only way to keep track how you play something the same twice. So yeah, sub sections...adding and over dubbing etc make the epic stick. I have a ton of respect for Prog bands that create quality epics. Obviously, it isn't easy. Structurally if I had to vote for the classic, pinnacle long Prog song it's Supper's Ready that gets my vote. That song is pretty flawless and is pretty much a drawing board to show how to create a good epic as well. :) ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:47
Yeah but ripped clothing and spiky hair does not a Punk rock movement make. I don't know that much about Punk but I tend to prefer the empirical musical evidence over any other source, which is to say what was happening in the music being played live and recorded, when, and where. I doubt Punk in any real form would've started in the US anyway (though it did flourish here in the '80s). It was a British phenomenon, not an American one, both stylistically and musically. But I could be wrong. I reckon it to Metal-- one can say it was Blue Cheer or Steppenwolf or Hendrix, but if we're being honest, it was Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath and Judas Priest. |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 07:08
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The first punk bands (MC5, New York Dolls, The Stooges) were all from the US... a 1974 encyclopedia of rock music my father owns mentions those three as examples of the genre. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 07:11
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^ Books are notoriously wrong, especially rock history books. Besides; The Stooges, Punk?  |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 07:23
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My point is that when punk was first codified as a music genre categorization in the mid-1970s, it was overwhelmingly used to refer to bands from the United States. (Michigan in particular) The British didn't really get in on it until a bit later, and yes important punk bands on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean (and elsewhere on the planet) have always been quick to mention Iggy and friends as important sources of inspiration. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 08:00
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^ well American or British, most of the first wave of what became codified as Punk for me, sucked heinously (and I always reckoned it was an artistic bohemian critter in the US but an overtly political beast in the UK) Let's not get further off topic with another where did the mooted anarchy fail to appear first US or UK? debate shall we? -------------
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 08:17
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This is the very first ex-Yugoslavian progressive rock epic , recorded by INDEXI in 1969. I think it's well structured & longer than 10 minutes prog song which actually have nothing to do with British progresive rock movement (scene); INDEXI were one of the representatives of authentic Yugoslavian prog. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 08:27
| Wasn't there some Italian band that released a very developed prog album in 1969? I can't recall the name offhand. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 09:33
I do not know, but I can bet in hard cash that the album was recorded in Italian language; that Italians were singing in their own language made that authencity; the same thing is with Yugoslavian prog bands, or with Kosmische Musik which used "stylized" English. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 09:44
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This is not a competition.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 09:50
Too much of this, was defined/designed wayyyyyyyyyyyy after the fact and the music. I tend to ignore those labels, because many of them don't even describe the artists at all, specially when some of them do more than one thing! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 09:55
pfft! We should avoid the use of words "artists" and "music" ... far too restrictive and don't even begin to describe the time-varying compression of air molecules that they create.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 10:08
It's not meant to sound bad at all, despite Dean's mean spirited comment. When a language is not your original language, when you are writing, sometimes the words don't show up, and it has a tendency to throw things off! I mean ... c'mon ... my Brittish (got it right this time!) collection of music is 40% of my total number of records and cd's! And the number of bands I list all the time from all over that continent all the time that I like, is more than any other, maybe with the exception of Germany, and even then, it's only the 70's stuff in Germany! But I get really tired of articles and posts and what not continually saying that ELP, Genesis and bruhaha invented progressive music, when it was a world wide event in music. Paris, for example, had just as good and weirder music than KC's first, but no one here is going to look at that list and give it a serious notion! Is it because the French and the Brittish (now that sounds wrong!!!), fought each other for so many years? And Italy had a very strong connection to classical music, that helped develop their own rock music and eventually "progressive". But here, nooooooooo, it has to be all this and that because they are the number one!------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 10:23
The concern is that you are confusing the issue further, in my book. The fact, is that of all the countries in the western world both America and England had the strongest interest in it, and went after it. Europe came right behind, although they were big in short wave in the old days.
As such, the market would help American and Brittish writers a lot more than someone from Italy, or Japan. And, of course, right away you have someone knowing all the LOCAL bands, but they have never heard (enough) of the other material, enough to appreciate a similar feeling and work.
In America, this is far worse, because America is like, 5 different countries let's say, and each one has their likes and dislikes, and people in NY have a tendency to laugh and ignore everyone in SF and people in SF have a tendency to think that NY'rs are stuffy and not cool, or hip! It extends to progressive and any other music, but NY laughts at you because they sell more than SF! And the NY Times is bigger than the SF Chronicle, that is now all but dead because of a rich turkey, whose reign started in the days of Orson Welles! (Citizen Kane).
Many other countries did not have this freedom of the arts and press and radio to be able to show you something different. We're lucky that these two countries had the media resources to make this work, because if they didn't it would be just alike some progressive band from Podunk, Switzerland that none of us give a cahoot about because we think it sounds like Genesis, and they did their thing 3 years before Genesis! That's my concern, and what I call "our own" ignorance.
The arts, and ALL the arts, existed all over the world, not just London and NY and then SF and Paris, and this is the part that we're not recognizing. For PROGRESSIVE to make sense, you will have to INCLUDE those artistic movements, or it will simply die and dissipate into just another fan band, and lose it's value in time! You haven't read many articles about the top ten in 1914, have you? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 12:35
Oh, right. Must have been really cutting words then. ------------- What? |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 12:46
Dem roight ebil, it were. Of course, accusing musicians and the musically-minded of racism or fascist nationalism when referring to historically verifiable points isn't at all mean-spirited. Fatuous, perhaps -- maybe even without context or utterly baseless -- but not mean-spirited. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 12:52
Fortunately I didn't do that either. ------------- What? |
Posted By: notesworth
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 16:19
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Now that this went way off topic, here's a response to the first post... I'd like to hear more classical forms in prog rock. Like sonata, theme-and-variations, rondo, etc. A lot of what I hear is either extended verse-chorus song forms or completely free forms. Those are fine and a lot of great music's been made with them, but there's a lot of possibilities to explore with classical forms. You could argue that Yes's "Close to the Edge" is either a modified sonata or an extended song form. I've also seen King Crimson's "Starless" and "Larks Pt. 1" explained as a sonata. I can't think of any rondos right off hand unless I count stuff in ABA form. And I don't know how to fit a fugue to rock music... Vocal music tends to use standard song forms regardless of song length, and that's even true in a lot of prog rock. For all the talk about "songs without choruses", I hear a lot of choruses in prog rock songs. Which is fine with me - I like a LOT of these songs. But if you want to get away from that, especially if you're doing instrumental music, the classical world's come up with a lot of ideas for forms for instrumental music. As for how sonata form and song form can be a lot alike: Standard sonata: Exposition (two themes) - Exposition repeat (two themes again) - Development - Recapitulation Song form (common variant) - Verse/chorus - Verse/chorus - Bridge - Verse/chorus The main difference is the development section works with the melodies in the exposition, but most bridges introduce new melodies. But there's also a lot of benefit to surprise. That's one of my favorite things about prog rock - I never know what's going to happen next. I listen to some classic jazz, and one thing that bugs me is how the form is identical for most pieces. Everything's a theme-and-variations set up - main melody, everybody solos, main melody again, and end. Which works well for a lot of pieces, but there's no sense of surprise. There's a few exceptions but not many. I know this is confusing and I contradicted myself a bunch, but this topic interests me a lot.
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 16:50
No, you didn't. But then I wasn't referring to you. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 16:52
Didn't think you were but wasn't sure. ------------- What? |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 17:17
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I both like the simple 4/4 tempos in a prog rock song (yes, 4/4 can be prog too) and the much more elaborate song structures and tempos. A great example of relatively simple structures is Psychotic Waltz's "Bleeding", their most mature release IMO. Mostly 4/4 tempos with some twists and turns and some songs including a structure of verse/refrain/verse x 2/refrain, which I found a nice twist. Generally speaking the way more conventional structures within prog songs are used could make a big difference to my appreciation of the song/artist/album. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 17:52
I was referring to a blanket statement someone made that accused the general posting population here of ethnocentrism and imperialism regarding the progressive rock timeline, while all along ignoring the historical facts in the matter. Sorry if you felt like collateral damage. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 06 2014 at 20:53
Right, which was my point about rock-- Iggy and his Stooges were doing a sort of hard Garage rock, with the probability that English musicians were being influenced by that sound (an attempt to expand on Blues music). But really what they were doing was simply rock 'n roll; a raw and primitive kind, but pure American rock 'n roll. Not unlike the Beatles very early gigs in Germany and England. We're talking loud, heavy stuff played with abandon. That's what rock was to many young people because it was fun and you could play it, unlike jazz, Pop Vocal, or classical. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 07:36
This is possibly one of the main reasons I don't consider Krautrock to be Prog. (and rest assured my idea of Prog is far greater and far reaching than just the English Symphonic brigade) That's not a qualitative judgement, after all, the Velvets are probably one of my favourite bands of all time but their oeuvre is not hewn from the same stuff as Prog i.e. it's more an avant garde, outlier, pared down, confrontational and visceral/nihilistic attitude that eschews the refinements of technical virtuosity and form. (and especially subject matter) Maybe Krautrock has more in common with Punk that we would care to admit? Say what you like about a band as hugely influential in so many disparate fields of music as the Velvets, but they are the antithesis of Prog non pareil. But yes, the influence of late 60's Psychedelia from whatever source, is clearly discernible in Krautrock. (Beefheart, Zappa, Seeds, Floyd, Jefferson Airplane, Arthur Brown, Doors, Hawkwind, Love etc) and can be traced right through to celebrated post punk mancunians the Fall.  -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 09:26
| But that would be a bit like saying Larks or Red is too heavy/aggressive to be prog. Velvet Underground is just one of Can's influences. They were also interested in the work of composers like Steve Reich. I also don't necessarily see nihilism as incompatible with prog, far from it. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 09:58
Again, we should re-read the line ... it basically says that no one in Africa was good enough to play a Fender, or that no one in Argentina ever played a Ludwig set, or anyone in Australia ever saw a Teac! And in the old days in England they used to call the Africans and the Hindu's "savages"!
Maybe we need to have a few folks take a look at Eurock's old listings of musicians from around the world. And reconsider who is being close minded here and showing their xenophobic ethnocentrism in their comments a lot more than I who has lived in 3 continents! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 10:06
Does it really? How very inflammatory. ------------- What? |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 10:08
Not even a sitter, perhaps nihilism was a bad choice for an initiate but I just meant that the sophistication or perhaps esoteric nature of Prog was anathema to the VU i.e not dissimilar to the ethos that if you have a pulse you can do this DIY aesthetic of Punk. Do you honestly equate visceral/confrontational to heavy'/aggressive as if someone as dolefully conformist like say ACDC embodies the former? Keith Emerson adores the work of Alberto Ginastera but certainly ain't an avant garde composer. I'm starting to suspect you are an accountant? Prove me wrong... -------------
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 10:32
Is xenophobic ethnocentrism a kind of Spinal Tap turn it up to 11 version 0f ethnocentrism? -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 10:44
Guilty as charged. However, I did not equate nihilism to heavy/aggressive music. Is there a profession for people who do not read carefully? I said, "It would be like saying Red is too heavy/aggressive to be prog." Now those albums do have some of the nihilistic qualities of punk in places and Fripp went on to sympathise with the punk movement and embrace the DIY ethic to some extent. Red is far removed from the staidness of AC DC; if I used specific albums to make a parallel than I must have had a specific point in mind, no? Being that in today's humbler times, many prog albums are in fact self produced and even funded by fans for want of label support, it is actually not as incompatible as you appear to believe. I don't think prog is necessarily all that sophisticated in the larger scheme of things (ok some of it but there's plenty that isn't) but that's a different discussion.
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 19:13
Some of my views on the original question: Structure in music is only a means to facilitate a musician's vision, as structure in a building is only a means to facilitate an architects vision. There are many practical considerations that if not accounted for, will not result in a successful realization or even a useful end product. If the vision is radical, new techniques must be invented, if not, old techniques can be used in new ways. History is filled with stories of those whose visions exceeded conventions. The new, the avant-garde, is, like everything else, built upon that which came before. Even a rejection of a style or structure is influenced by that style or structure. New does not always mean better. Neither does old. There are many ways to progress, and there are many ways to innovate.  ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 19:19
------------- 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 19:20
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The episodic nature of long songs like Supper's ready don't appeal to me when the tracks are so long. I can take Can-utility and the Coastliners episodic nature but a 20-minute incoherent Frankenstein song is too much. Maybe my classically-grown mind is guilty for that. -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 19:21
Good post. Structure is only as good as the execution. So answering the OP for the first time in the thread
I don't have a particular favourite structure for prog. It is purely contextual. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 21:36
I bought my copy of the Foxtrot when I was 13, that was a long time ago, and no one is convinced me that the Supper's Ready is one song. Always that Supper's Ready sounds to me like a half of a concept album or an album within the album. I mean, if Supper's Ready is one song, then Tommy (original 1969 album) is "one song" too. I'm not a musician, even I have never held an instrument in my hands, so my opinion about a song structure is not valid one, but for me this is an example of a well structured progressive rock epic although it is an instrumental, and allhough it has nothing to do with the British progressive rock movement (scene).. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 07 2014 at 21:53
Kipling called them "Fuzzy Wuzzies", if I recall. Not that it has anything at all to do with the conversation. If you care so much for the downtrodden 3rd World, perhaps you should take some of the Leon Trotsky memorial silver spoons you've been eating off of and give them to the poor. We are talking about progressive rock, yes? I would suggest it was primarily a British invention, just as blues, R&B and jazz were American inventions (African-American, to be precise). Rock and Roll was originally an American invention absconded by the Brits, who had spent most of the early 60s venerating Black American blues and R&B performers, diversified by the late 60s and infused the Western European classical music tradition (and a bit of jazz) into the rock mix and...voila! Prog. The Brits released the most relevant, highest selling and most influential prog albums WORLDWIDE. It is not even debatable. Everyone else followed along until the next shiny toy came along: punk (again, an American/Brit amalgamation, with a bit of Jamaican seasoning). Simplistic, I know. But I am dealing with simpletons. If you would like to somehow rewrite history with the typical revisionist claptrap, I'd love to hear of the Czechoslovakian band who in 1965 put Bo Diddley compositions into sonata form and released the stellar Prog in Prague: What Bo Don't Know. A travesty it only sold 5 albums before the band went back to the coal mines. And personally, I don't give a damn about Argentinian drummers, Australian tape players, or African guitarists (except for the great Ali Farka Toure, who had absolutely nothing to do with prog rock whatsoever), because they are not relevant to what we've been talking about. Sorry if that hurts your Third World Patricianly sensibilities, but what you are saying is plain silly and completely out of context.
Be careful, Mosh, you've already been kicked off of 3 continents -- there are only a couple decent ones left! But it is not a matter of "xenophobic ethnocentrism", it is you who are incapable of looking past your obvious anti-American/anti-British (yes, "British" has only one damn 't') biases and prejudices and giving credit where credit is due. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 00:14
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IMO this is a great example of a well structured and yet modern, contemporary progressive rock epic; the song entitled Parallel Timeline is released just three days ago by the German prog rock trio (the members are from Dortmund, Cologne and Munich) ELIZABETH THE LAST ; this band did do two great singles (both epic) and, perhaps apart from the band's name, their music has nothing to do with the British progressive rock movement (scene) in late 60s/early 70s: http://elizabeththelast.bandcamp.com/album/parallel-timeline" rel="nofollow - http://elizabeththelast.bandcamp.com/album/parallel-timeline (name your price)
 |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 08:26
I would say this is only 50% right!
Structure, is, quite often, something that we can discern AFTERWARDS. Not everyone composes ahead of time. You might have a small detail or something you want to play, but many times you don't know what it will bring until after you play it.
Krautrock, and a lot of the improvisational music that came to be known as psychedelic (for example) was in many ways music where the folks were too stoned to have it recorded or even produced. (Sometimes, not always!) Take this with some milk and sugar please! It's a bit of a joke, but it tells you that when you are in it, for the "experience", you would not be thinking about recording it.
This was what made the really early Grateful Dead recordings so valuable. The amazing endless jams in the 5 or 6 hour concerts. Most of which became a sort of imprint for a lot of the stuff done later. Other influences, for example would be Guru Guru's 3rd album, which is total Jimi Hendrix, as was a lot of their earlier stuff with Ax G.
It's not "pre-defined music", thus, how can you explain a "structure"?
There might be a moment or two, or sound, or something that they are going to play around (try LSD March!) and the rest is wide open, and the structure comes as it comes and people adjust to whatever they know and can do. READ Helmut Hattler's interview at PA ... "think of something ... play it!" ... when they were stuck! You could say that they might have played the easiest thing they know?
I'm not sure that you are giving musicians credit for being able to improvise and create something that is not "composed". It's like saying that Keith Jarrett is f**king insane ... how can he remember it all before he sits at the piano for 30 minutes and such?
We're not giving credit for the fact that recording has shown us something that "composition" and "music" didn't have before, (I suppose you could say that 100 years ago, any "composer" would have written it down, but if you play an instrument, there are times when you don't know what you played ... it just came out! Now you can sit and break it down. 100 years ago you couldn't as well as today!
See how recording has changed music? We're not allowing it to "develop" because we keep insisting on structure, when we don't even know what we might be doing while experimenting. And all those Kraftwerk, and this and that were just that!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 08:42
Again, the point is, and you still don't see it, that both of these countries were much more developed in the media, specially radio and television, which helped dictate that there was music in America and England, but in Africa there was no music. And later, the islands brought you reggae, which has been there for 500 years! Go see the film "Cinema Paradiso" to get a slight idea of how different it was!
It's the educational side that is being ignored and you are upset at me for saying it.
And for the record I was not kicked out, and there is a reason why a dad made it in the literary world, and many others don't. It isn't just luck. It's the quality of the work and creativity around it. I can honestly say, that, sadly, even in a thread like this, some folks are trying hard to close down the avenues of creativity and cultural heritages as invalid creative instincts.
It is all way too mixed up for anyone to make sense of. But in the meantime, the Brittish and the Americans owned the world. Oh well 450 years ago it was the Portuguese and the Spanish ... my oh my, how they have fallen! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 10:53
Mosh, I am typing this very slowly (so please read it slowly). Let us forget your anti-imperialist harangues and specious cinematic references. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the point. The point, Mosh, and the only point. This entire discussion hinges on your unfathomable (and bigoted) disagreement with the following statement by ...I do accept that musical developments in countries outside England would have been pivotal in the subsequent developments and directions of Prog Rock but I still believe the consensus view that it's origins are predominantly from English culture. The following authors also arrive at the same conclusion and do attempt with varying degrees of success, to explain the reasons from a cultural, social and economic perspective... If you have specific evidence that what we refer to as "Progressive Rock" did not originate in Britain in the late 60s, then provide it. That's it. No socialist babble. No revisionist worldview prattle. No mind-numbing flights of film fantasy.
It is baseless statements like this that annoy me. No one is closing avenues of cultural creativity. No one is saying that those original British prog bands did not have influences from everyone from Rachmaninoff to Bach to Miles Davis to Roland Kirk. But influences are different than the actual creation of prog rock by the Brits. So give credit where credit is due, Mosh. Come on, you can do it. You won't lose your membership card to the International Socialist Organization.
Perhaps it is mixed up in your hallucinatory head, Mosh, particularly because of all the electro-shock treatments. But for the rest of us who can actually follow along with a discussion, it is pretty cut and dry. And it is "British". B-R-I-T-I-S-H. From the word "Britain". Unless you are using Ranulph Higden's Polychronicon for a little light reading and are speaking in a Middle-English dialect from the 14th century, but even then it would be Brittische. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 10:58
I prefer Britititititish myself, there are lots of tits in Brititititititian.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:04
Hmmm...I suppose I should stay abreast of such developments. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:04
| Are there some unknown, obscure prog albums that beat the sales of Thriller by a multiple of 10 or something like that that UK should so concern itself with appropriating prog as part of the British empire? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:07
I wasn't aware that a) we were "appropriating" prog as part of the Brititititish Umpire and b) that Thriller was Prog. ------------- What? |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:07
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Damn mosquito bites are really annoying -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:08
I was being sarcastic.
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:18
Sarcasm originated in Britain. It was discovered by either Jonathan Swift or Sir Isaac Newton, I believe. It had something to do with the fog. Or perhaps it was disdain for the French. Anyway, if you combine the words "fog" and "French", you get "frog". And there you have it. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:22
| OK, but being that the internet is a great leveler in the business of non detection of sarcasm, I thought I would make sure. |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:28
Several good points are made here, my friend. I especially like the insight on how recordings have brought out aspects of music not commonly acknowledged before, namely improvisation. It was certainly present before the technology, but since music was disseminated through publication and performance of published works it frequently fell between the cracks. Many Baroque composers allowed space for improvisation by the musicians.
However, even if subconscious, vision is still an aspect of improvisation. Yes, structure may only be seen after the fact in these cases, but whatever the musician plays is an extension of what is in the mind of the musician whether it is consciously known or not. After the fact recognition does not deny what is actually present. Now, some structures are looser and more broad than others, but they are still structures. Non-pre-defined music still has structure, it is only heard after the fact and it could be almost anything. Even the longest jam has changes and that indicates structure. As a musician myself, I have listened back to recordings I have made of jams and have found structure in them I was not aware of at the time. They were not tight, and certainly showed no pre-determined composition, but there were changes made that everybody followed and participated in. That is structure.
I am finding some difficulty with this discussion. As commonly happens, we spend as much time, if not more, on side issues rather than on the original topic. As usual, a clear set of definitions would help us out here. What is meant by structure? Is it a matter of composition or of something else? Something more? What do we mean by composition? Questions such as these are issues of discussion themselves, so unless we get that clarity from the OP we will inevitably meander through the discussion. And even then, we would question the definitions. This is an open forum, though, anything goes. Never a dull moment on the Forum! ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:30
Well, one must always assure that sarcasm is addressed in its purest form. Of course, there are those that will say that sarcasm was not original to Britain but was invented by the Ayyubid Muslims and taken captive and brought back to England during the Crusades by Richard the Lionheart. That is only conjecture, however. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:32
| Whatever, now I really must take leave of this side-side-track because it's really splitting hairs over nothing. |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:32
Sorry.------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:37
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This website is Canadian. Live with that you Anglo-centrists -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:41
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We live with Rush being notionally regarded as a Prog band. Mostly. ...and Celine Dion of course. ------------- What? |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:42
| Can Celine Dion live with Celine Dion, let alone Britttttishers? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:42
So was I. ------------- What? |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:44
| Ah |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 12:09
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Cursed double post!
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 08 2014 at 12:10
As was my abbreviated history of sarcasm. I am sure someone can offer a post-colonial revisionist history of sarcasm as well. Perhaps John Cleese....or Pedro. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |