The Black Codex (NL) for Symphonic Prog
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=98323
Printed Date: April 29 2024 at 00:24
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Topic: The Black Codex (NL) for Symphonic Prog
Posted By: amatala
Subject: The Black Codex (NL) for Symphonic Prog
Date Posted: May 20 2014 at 04:33
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I can't find any mention about this on the site, yet it's something I've been following faithfully since the beginning of the year and I'm really enjoying it. The Black Codex is yet another project by Christiaan Bruin, already well known around here for his role in Sky Architect and another one of his projects, CHRIS: http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4868" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4868 The Concept of The Black Codex is a unique one: Subscribers receive, by email, a newly composed and recorded piece of music every week, together with illustrated lyrics, drawings, and other bonus features. So the series will only be complete at the end of the year, but there already are 20 episodes available, making up to 2 hours and a half of pure symphonic awesomeness.  Here is the official site of the project, where you can subscribe to the project and find lots of previews: http://www.theblackcodex.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.theblackcodex.com/ And this is the FB official page: https://www.facebook.com/theblackcodex" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/theblackcodex I personally find the whole concept of this project a very progressive one and really worth of more attention! Live Prog Review: ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Replies:
Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: May 20 2014 at 05:12
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And another trailer... Episode previews: https://soundcloud.com/christiaanbruin" rel="nofollow - https://soundcloud.com/christiaanbruin ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: May 20 2014 at 05:17
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A strange concept, and I'm not sure how this would fit into PA since there isn't an actual 'album' being released as such from what I can make out at the moment Will there be a physical release of the episodes? "Perhaps, but so far nothing is certain". Who are the musicians playing on the recordings? "It's mostly me, but there are some guest musicians as well". It's 4 euro each month to subscribe via email, so each episode is 1 euro. Samples of the episodes available on the website without subscribing are limited to 45 seconds, and the ones I listened to certainly have an orchestral sound, but seem more like music from a typical film score than what my understanding of Symphonic Prog is. Perhaps we need to wait until all 52 episodes are released, and we can see in what direction the project eventually intends to go from there?
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Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: May 20 2014 at 05:28
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As far as I can see the existence of a physical medium is not mandatory: "The availability of a physical medium is preferred, but bands whose
music is available solely on iTunes, BandCamp, or a similar website will
also be accepted." And the only difference from a standard release is that tracks get released as weekly episodes, not all at once. Nevertheless, when it will reach 52 episodes, at almost 6 hours long, it will be the ultimate concept album. Musically speaking it's very close to Chris's http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=43048" rel="nofollow - Days Of Summer Gone (strangely listed as neo-prog?) - similar sound, some of the same guest musicians... if that album was accepted on PA, there is no reason for this one not to be... ... unless it's concept is too progressive for PA...  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 20 2014 at 05:32
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Let's just wait and see what the symph guys say about this:-) ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 23 2014 at 19:32
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No, this is not Prog IMO, but we will check it as a team when it's complete It sounds almost as a Movie score. Today, we can't add something that is not complete Iván
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Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: June 11 2014 at 09:43
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THE
BLACK CODEX will become available on CD. The whole series will be
released on 4 double CD's, packaged in a mini-album sleeve. Together
with the fourth part a box and a book will become available. The series
of double CD's will be released quarterly. The first double album, Episodes 1 - 13, will be released on the 4th of July. Tracklist Episodes 1- 13: CD 1 1. Overture Pt. I 2. Overture Pt. II 3. Map Of The World / Fairground Of Ark Pt. I 4. Fairground Of Ark Pt. II / A World Away 5. Wanderlust 6. A Dot On The Horizon CD 2 1. Beneath The Surface 2. Flight Of Columbo 3. House Behind The Hedge / Trapped In Time 4. The City Of Ark (From Above) 5. One And The Many 6. The Key 7. Thoughtcrime And Burglary Guest Musicians: Peter Bruin - Trumpet Ruben van Kruistum - Cello Annelies Rijk - Violin Federico Dalpra - Flute Rik van Honk - Trumpet, bass trumpet, flugelhorn PRE-ORDER Available here: http://www.freia-music.nl/c-2347119/christiaan-bruin/" rel="nofollow - http://www.freia-music.nl/c-2347119/christiaan-bruin/ ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: May 18 2015 at 04:18
 The 8-CD boxset with 68-page booklet is already available for pre-order (expected release May 28th) here: http://www.freia-music.nl/…/the-black-codex-complete-serie…/" rel="nofollow - http://www.freia-music.nl/…/the-black-codex-complete-serie…/ ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 18 2015 at 04:30
That is insane  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 18 2015 at 15:50
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Seems interesting But it's hard to decide without listening it -------------
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Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: May 18 2015 at 16:12
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It's available on Spotify: http://play.spotify.com/artist/0oH8kEUfV7aJpD6HPHZG9z" rel="nofollow - http://play.spotify.com/artist/0oH8kEUfV7aJpD6HPHZG9z ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 19 2015 at 22:46
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Interesrting, I will submit to the rest of the team I say Yes Iván -------------
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Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: May 20 2015 at 04:36
Great, thanks for the update!  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 20 2015 at 11:04
But wait, we need 3 more votes of the team. I'm the head of the team just as a formality, but every vopte weights exactly the same -------------
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amatala wrote:Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: May 20 2015 at 14:43
I know we're not there yet, but I'm glad it's on the right track!  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 24 2015 at 11:21
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Shouldn't The Black Codex be added to Christian Brun's page? Iván -------------
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Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: May 28 2015 at 04:06
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When I asked Christian about the proper tagging of the weekly files I was receiving from him as part of the project (this was during the whole of 2014, before the music got released on CD), he insisted that both artist and album names should be The Black Codex, and not use Chris/Christian Bruin as artist. I know that the music sounds very similar at times witch Chris' latest album, Days of Summer Gone (and even some of the musicians are the same) but there is no mention of Chris on the CD covers, just The Black Codex. You can post the question on his FB page if you like, but he'll probably reply the same thing... https://www.facebook.com/theblackcodex" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/theblackcodex ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 30 2015 at 11:19
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Hi guys. Sadly not accepted But I notified the Neo Team
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 05 2015 at 12:53
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Sorry, not accepted in Symphonic or Neo. I have just notified the admin to allow me to add the collection into Various Artists Iván -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 05 2015 at 13:03
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Do you think that it is maybe something that Crossover should take a crack at? ------------- 
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Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: June 05 2015 at 13:57
No thank you please.  ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 05 2015 at 14:05
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I suppose being on both teams, you did already take a crack at it. Probably listened to all CDs twice...once wearing your neo hat and once wearing your crossover hat...followed up by a six-pack and a long nap. -------------
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Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: June 05 2015 at 14:30
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^ now that you mention it, yes, it was something like that, you say six pack, I say why stop at six, you say long nap, I say drunken slobber fest . . . potato pot-tah-to. :) ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 05 2015 at 14:32
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Posted By: ModernProg3
Date Posted: August 29 2015 at 04:07
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I listened to this project on spotify today. Very nice stuff. Too bad it wasn't accepted. From what I have heared so far it sounds like a more symphonic version of "Chris" to me. Can anyone please tell me if the 2 disc-versions contain booklets, too. It would be much less expensive for me to buy them seperately and now I have to decide very fast. With Progalbums you never know how fast they become collectors items.
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Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: August 29 2015 at 04:26
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Yeah, it's a full-blown Symphonic Prog concept album. Too bad some people would not know Prog even if it hit them straight in the face, but what can you do? Anyway, to answer your question: the booklet is only included with the box. The separate 2 disc sets do not have booklets. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 29 2015 at 09:38
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I can't believe it wasn't accepted BUT I'm sure you mistake about Collabs and Teams in PA. IMO They are know music specially Progressive Rock music perfectly and they are professional . There are too many bands that suggest by PA forum members (like me) and maybe they (team members) haven't enough time to listen carefully to your "Long Time Project". Perhaps they should spend more time for your released and IMO The Black Codex is a symphonic Prog band.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 29 2015 at 12:02
It's a full blown Symphonic album FOR YOU. Our team is very well informed about Symphonic, Bhikkhu and myself may be two of the only persosns that has at least one album of each and every Symphonic band here, we've been in the team for 9 years, we cleaned the genre from bands that weren't remotely Symphonic or added bands that were lost in Prog Metal (Before the PM team was created) or in Prog Related With Bhikkhu and Clem of Nazareth we made 275 bios in 2 months and created the genre as it is today, all our bios are original. Scott and Anton have been in the team for three years and have checked more bands than most of the prog listeners...Louis is a new member and wasn't in the team in that moment, so he is not respónsible Normally I'm the hard face of the team and reject the borderline bands, but in this case HT and myself voted yes and were MISTAKEN, I trust my team and they made me notice some aspects that I omitted, so I had to agree with them. But I agree 100% with my team members, this is not a Symphonic release, IMO should go to http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2634" rel="nofollow - Various Artists (Concept albums & Themed compilations) with some similar projects like: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=35818" rel="nofollow - DECAMERON: TEN DAYS IN 100 NOVELLAS (PART 1)
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Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: August 29 2015 at 13:48
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It's not relevant what the past credentials are, anyone voting no on the inclusion of this clearly hasn't spent enough time to understand the project and see it for what it really is. And btw this is not "my" project in any way, just something I thought I'd mention for this site to be the most complete possible and help others discover this excellent project. The fact that other reviewers can recognize for what it is (and I quote "refined symphonic prog" for those not speaking French) while the teams here cannot gives a serious blow to this site's credibility... https://www.facebook.com/theblackcodex/posts/852571364832630" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/theblackcodex/posts/852571364832630 http://www.progwereld.org/cms/album/christiaan-bruin-black-codex/" rel="nofollow - http://www.progwereld.org/cms/album/christiaan-bruin-black-codex/ PS: Adding this http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2634" rel="nofollow - Various Artists (Concept albums & Themed compilations) doesn't actually make much sense as this is a release by a single artist and it's not a compilation either. If no team wants to accept it, then assume your decision and leave it out of the site completely. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 29 2015 at 14:48
We spent enough time, we discussed it, but we couldn't reach an agreement. This is the most complete site and the most serious one, we have teams who search hundreds of bands and many are not accepted, we normally don't decide by what others say, we check each and every band suggested.
What other reviewers? Is it in Proggnosis?..............NO Is it in GEPR?......................NO Is it in Progressive Ears.?.....NO Is it in DPRP?......................NO Is it in Progressor?...............NO So, the band is not mentioned in the most reliable sites Now, Progwereld doesn't mention the word Symphonic once Our credibility is based in our teams, we always done the job and done it well, what other sites say is not too important to us, but it's a reference...Most people see Symphony as a synonym of Prog, or say symphonic to any orchestral album, we don't....We have our own parameters.
I have nothing to do with other teams, if they are rejected is because they don't fit here. Our call is NO FOR SYMPHONIC and I stand on it, despite I originally voted yes. If you like it great, if you don't, then it's your problem, but please respect the work we do, is the list we can ask. Iván
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Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: August 29 2015 at 14:57
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The important thing to understand about PA is that it works like a family owned business. Only PA teams get to decide what's right by their own undisclosed criteria behind close doors. When you reject a proposal, you should at least explain in detail what were the exact criteria of the rejection. You just say that YOU said NO and YOU have listened to at least one album from every band that YOU believe to be Symphonic Prog, which makes YOU know best... Erm... If you would just take a moment and think about how ridiculous that sounds... Anyway, all fine by me. I think we can both agree that it's your site and your rules, which means your Prog by your definition. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 29 2015 at 15:39
If you don't like it, bad luck. BTW: We explain our reasons in the thread in the Collaborators section, because when we did it in an open thread there was chaos. As a fact we are one of the teams who explain member by member our position
I voted yes at first, and HT also, but the rules of the site say 3 yes votes and no negative votes, by¿ut my final opimnion was different
We sent it to Neo Prog and we received this reply So the decision is taken, and discussed largely by two teams. Iván
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.Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: August 29 2015 at 17:15
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Well, thanks for the insight. As I suspected, there is no real strong reason for rejection - just everyone's feeling that there's something odd about it. It's a pity that no one has taken the proper time to listen a few times to the whole thing and try to understand it properly. By including it on this site I was just hoping the project to get a better exposure to the Prog community. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 29 2015 at 18:03
There's a strong reason. It's not Symphonic. -------------
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: August 29 2015 at 20:45
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Ok, everyone calm down. Amatala, please recognize that we choose our collaborators carefully for their expertise in the genres that they work in, and I have full confidence that they chose correctly in this assessment. When the band releases another album, they can absolutely be re-evaluated and perhaps admitted for their new material. And Ivan, please also show restraint in your explanations of the team's procedure, as some of your comments came off as a bit blunt. You were just in your explanations, but obviously amatala is frustrated and we need to show understanding. Any other questions can be sent to me via PM. ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: August 30 2015 at 01:52
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I do recognize the fact that you choose your collaborators carefully, but you should also recognize the fact that sometimes they can be wrong. There is no such thing as Doctor in Prog with an official certificate or diploma, no one can be right in 100% of the cases and with a small team of experts it's quite possible that enough votes are wrong to have legitimate artists get rejected. In cases like this where things are unclear and no one is sure, there should be a way to review a decision. This is clearly Prog, yet it gets left out. It's not Neo? Of course it isn't. It's not Symphonic? Well, I am not sure about that. But clearly it is Prog, yet no other team has the courage to evaluate it because of the length... You already have Chris on your site and his latest album is very similar in style with The Black Codex (also same musicians play on both). http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=43048" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=43048 This album is already wrongly listed as Neo Prog as it has nothing to do with that. I understand that this site does not have the flexibility of RYM where different albums of the same artist can belong to different genres (and this is a very strong limitation IMO as many Prog artists go across diferent genres), but not having the flexibility of adding a stylistically similar album by the same artist (just under a different name) is something I cannot easily understand. Moreover this is probably a one-time project, which has only an album (of more than 7 hours!) and may never release another album ever again so it will never get re-evaluated. I think you should be able to go past your rigid procedures and rules and recognize the fact that in some cases exceptions are necessary. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: mogol
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 02:24
Since The Black Codex is considered not pure enough for symphonic, why is it not suggested to crossover or eclectic teams?
With all due respect, I think it more speaks against you. Any group that stays unchanged for a long time is apt to become at least a bit too rigid and overconfident, especially in accepting new ideas etc.
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Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 09:44
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Symphonic Rock does not mean the same thing as Symphonic Prog Rock.
------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 01:18
By the contrary. In the old days, we would had sent the band to Prog Related, we became far more open, we have admitted bands that are barely Symphonic BTW: HT and myself (The oldest members of the team) voted YES, only after reading the posts of the other collaborators, I changed my vote. Iván PS: The team hasn't remained unchanged, we had ad least 15 different members like Micky, Raff, ClemofNazareth, Cesar Inca, FragileDT, etc, etc. etc. Louis has less than a month in the team, HT returned last year after a couple years sabbatical, SouthsideoftheSky has more or less two years.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 01:19
That's the point, Orchestra and classical influences don't always mean Symphonic Prog. -------------
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Posted By: mogol
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 07:13
Then I misunderstood you. I apologize.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 11:39
No hay problema. -------------
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Posted By: ModernProg3
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 15:13
Thank you for your fast response. I had some problems with my profile and the username had to be changed in the end, so I couldn't answer. In the meantime I bought the box-version and am happy with the very nice booklet. Prog or not I really enjoy the epic journey so far. I listened to 5 of the 8 discs and thus far I've got the impression that it is well-made and deserves some attention. It feels really great to listen to such a massive conceptalbum. MP3 |
Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: September 07 2015 at 07:37
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Yeah, the box set is the way to go for the full experience. I am glad you like it - I have listened to the whole thing 6-7 times (which is no easy feat ) and I do agree that it deserves more attention.But even if it got rejected here, other Prog sites are slowly but surely including it in their listings so it should start reaching more Prog fans! http://www.proggnosis.com/ARTIST_DETAIL.aspx?AID=13288" rel="nofollow - http://www.proggnosis.com/ARTIST_DETAIL.aspx?AID=13288 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: September 07 2015 at 23:52
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i heard "The Black Codex" again in its entirety yesterday and could say that it's undoubtedly the symphonic prog at its best, and therefore the project would be the first-class PA material...
However, it MUST be listen in its entirety, and any symph prog fan who really have been listening to "The Black Codex" in its entirety will confirm that it's undeniably a pure symphonic prog.
BTW, i'v been reading about this stunning project @ Prog Sphere at the time when the project was started.
i'm afraid that the current PA symph team sadly lost something of their credibility after their ridiculous decision to reject one of the most ambitious symph prog projects in decades, and surely a damage to the Prog Archives is done by the symph team in this case.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 00:13
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^ There's no doubt it's symphonic rock, I can tell that just from the small samples. Whether it's prog is for the team to decide. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 00:48
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 01:06
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Oooh, a tough guy. Bring it, Shirley. I have no knowledge as to whether they've been rejected or not, but if you wanna fight, we can do that too. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 01:16
Symphonic Rock is the same as Symphonic Prog? I'm getting tired of this crap, we don't have to answer you or your alter ego Svetonio. -------------
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Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 01:24
...At least in this case!
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 01:41
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^ Actually you kinda do. This is Progarchives, not a knitting club. Everyone fights for what they believe, that's the point. And if you fail, it's on to the next thing. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 01:57
Okay you say that, and i read that assertion at many threads and not only from you - please show to the forum members, collabs and admins, an unanswereable proof for your assertion - but please DONT start to "joking" now, DONT wake up your forum's lawyers to "help" you - now you must to show an irrafutable proof for what you said at the forum, and the admins will delete my account in a sec and you'll never see me again. isnt that nice? what you and your "lawyers" are waiting for?
 However, if you dont have an incontestable proof for your assertion, and if you are to continue to call me "Svetonio", I will call you a liar.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 02:11
1.- Do you know English? I said ALTER EGO, because of your ignorance in the languages (English and Latin), here is the definition. Educate yourself before you write, never said you were a clone....Now what I think is my problem. 2.- I don't need to wake anybody to help me, i can do it for myself, have debated with people more prepared and educated than you, unlike others who are puppets of their alter egos. 3.- About the band, it's our call, if you don't like it, buy your site and do what you want, I don't have to answer you or your ALTER EGO, the Administrators and the owners of the site are the only ones who can inquire about our decisions as a team. They haven't been added, because in our opinion and at least two members of the Neo Team, they are not Prog. -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 02:35
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Who needs barrack room "lawyers" when we have a real one. ------------- What? |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 04:08
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Oh boy! the debate is not over.. We have a persistent defender of the Black Codex here. From what i have been listening from this artist, it always seems difficult to reject a band that we think offer some quality music. I don't know if Black Codex would fit better on eclectic team because there's some symphonic music here, but much more like classical, medieval, soundtrack, etc. It's not the end of the world if this band is rejected by PA, it doesn't mean that it's not quality music or that it doesn't have some progressive rock tendencies. Maybe it's because the Progressive Rock element is not perceive as dominant from team's members here. ------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 04:24
------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 04:24
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...not a drawing made for this purpose, but if you ignore the political texts I think it fits. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 04:25
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I think that the important thing to understand here is that PA is not a site that strives for accuracy or objectiveness, but it's a site on which the owners include whatever they feel it's right in order to create their own subjective definition of Progressive Rock. This has been made very clear on repeated occasions. Once you understand that, this debate is over, the owners have spoken and users are free to move along and start using whatever site which they consider to be more credible and accurate (or build they own sites where they can be kings and rule their own worlds as they deem fit). ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 06:04
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The owners? This site has only one owner, and he's not involved in the evaluation of bands to be added to the database. Those you call "owners" are all volunteers who do it out of passion, without getting any reward - financial or otherwise. I understand your frustration, but before taking pot shots at people you might want to get your facts right. |
Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 06:09
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It doesn't really matter, the result is the same. The teams decide, so it's their site to do as they please with the info on it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 09:25
The word you're looking for is objectivity. Just a minor error in a silly, libelous post. |
Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 09:37
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Not as silly as others before me, e.g. "it's our call, if you don't like it, buy your site and do what you want, I don't have to answer you" These our toys and you don't get to play with them, go buy your own! http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/objectiveness" rel="nofollow - http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/objectiveness ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 09:55
When referring to being objective in terms of independence or impartiality, one will almost always use objectivity as the noun, with subjectivity as its antonym. Objectiveness is a far less frequently used synonym, and one which not every dictionary recognizes. But I suppose MW supports you. Please enlighten me on how you think this site should be run. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 10:08
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Just to add my two penn'orth as a former New Bands Admin. I'm listening to the first album now and from what I've heard so far I would have no objections to it being included in Symphonic Prog, however the decision belongs to Ivan and his team and not me. They have a vast amount of experience of their genre and it's a subjective thing so if they feel it doesn't belong, then chucking your toys out of the pram and resorting to abuse isn't going to help. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 10:12
To be fair; that was a remark made in the heat of the moment....but yes it reflects the fact that we are a number of normal people who do the best that we can to keep this site up and running. We all (even the folks who work here) have our own ideas on what exactly prog rock is and should be, which is why the teams work with votes. That is about as fair as it comes. ......and trust me, we all got a fair few bands we think should be here but aren't and vice versa. That doesn't mean we should change the foundation of the site though - it merely means that we can't please all of the people all of the time. There is no secret cloak and dagger stuff - no secret doorways to the other side of the curtain - nor ill will towards certain types of music. Each band is evaluated based on the music alone.......and sometimes you end up with a result that some don't agree with. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 10:13
I am not a native English speaker and this very spelling checker did not report Objectiveness as being wrong, but I will keep that in mind for the future. As for the site, at the very least, there should be some way to make an appeal in cases like this when enough users think the respective team decision was wrong. If this site cares for its users in any way, then the users should at least be heard and not cut off completely and rejected because they're not part of any team, and only the teams know what's right. That does not mean that the users should be allowed to decide because that would mean chaos, but at least they should be able to vote and their votes should weigh something, similar to the way ratings are calculated. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 10:24
It doesn't work like that though. We have to have some bearing on the people we chose to listen to. We need to know that the folks who are part of the decision making have some knowledge on the genre. That is the main reason we read through a member's reviews and posts before we go any further. Like any other workplace out there; you need to prove yourself before the gig is your's. If you have a passion for prog rock or indeed how this site operates, then start talking to the members over the forum. Get a few discussions under your belt, before you start accusing PA of being negligent of their members. You have written some 50 posts yet I only see you here in the suggest new bands forum. How are we ever to know where you're coming from? For all we know you could be a hip hop producer out of Brussels who's heard exactly three prog albums from the 70s. If that were the case, then it'd be a crazy move to include you in the decisions-making. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 10:24
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If it is vital for this project to be regarded as prog, their best call would be to send promos out to the big and/or influential prog sites, get it reviewed there, and if the verdict comes out as prog by them then there would be a reason for an appeal to give this one a second run. Active user interaction on the build of the database isn't a solution I see as viable. For starters it would lead to some confused artist at some point sending new people in to the forums merely to vote them in here. As well as people making fake accounts to get their favorites in: There has been some crazy stuff going on in that department over the years instigated by people either bored, drunk, high or just mentally unstable. Sometimes by people dealing with a combination of several of these factors. One might like or dislike the system here, but if one think it is failing: Create a new one. It's as simple as that really. Voicing a dislike for a decision isn't uncalled for, but when the dead horse whipped is well beyond the point of smelling funny, why keep on going? Being the loudmouthed child yelling in the sandpit that "I want it this way" is generally an approach that comes with failure as the end result. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 10:45
I never said you have to include me (or any user) in the decision making process. I was just suggesting a voting system where the votes would only be visible to the teams as guidelines. If enough users vote in a certain direction, then they may be onto something there... You know what they say: "If enough people tell you that you're drunk, then maybe you should go to bed!" And btw, I am a hip hop producer from Brussels, you got me there! Anyone recommend some good Prog?  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 11:06
I know where you're coming from and it'd be great if such a thing could work, but it simply isn't feasible (nor very wise). It'd take forever to add any act. And as Olav (Windhawk) just wrote, we have so many crazy folks signing up with less than sympathetic intentions, and there is no easy way for us of spotting them. They would surely feck this up or at the very least make the process of including an act on PA even more tiresome than it is today. Trust me when I say that we've all had ideas on how to better this particular area on PA, yet there is no simple solution. You simply cannot make a flawless system. There will always be decisions you don't agree with. As for the last bit of your post You should try out Faust's collab with Dalek. Hip hop meets experimental rock in an abandoned factory hall  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 11:14
Strange it may seem, this has been suggested before and I have looked into the logistics of how it can work and I'm sorry to report, but it simply cannot work, and it simply will not work. You have inadvertently hit upon the snag in your explanation... "If enough users vote" ... and the truth is not enough users will vote so what we will have would be an ad hoc team formed of those 'members' with a vested interest in adding an artist. For example I guess you would vote for Black Codex and you would vote "yes", but would you vote for every suggestion we have, even for bands that you don't like, and in subgenres you are not interested in? So now how representative would that ad hoc team be of the whole membership compared to the official subgenre team? The answer to that is "not very" because it is a skewed team that will always vote in favour of the suggestion, whereas the official subgenre team are (as near as dammit) impartial and therefore unbiased. Team members do not vote based on whether they like the music or not; their vote is determined by whether they think the music fits the subgenre or not. If we really had 54,000 active members to get a majority vote each suggestion would require 27,001 yes votes. Of course we can never get half the membership to vote on every suggestions so we'd take a sample of the total membership that we would hope represented a fair cross-section of that population. So for the sake of argument let's say that the minimum number of votes that each suggestion would need could be a tenth of that number, say 2,700 votes. Of course that is still an unreasonable number, and so 270, and even 27 would be an unreasonable expectation (trust me, getting 27 people interested enough in an obscure prog band to register a vote would be a major task and doomed to failure). So would 2.7 people be enough? Also, at any one time we have a list of over 100 artist suggestions, each of those artists has a discography of one or more albums and to give a fair assessment we have to listen to as much of their output as is humanly possible, so each voter would need to listen to a minimum of 45 minutes of music per suggestion, so to vote on all evaluations that would equate to 75 hours of their time. Since we continue to get suggestions, each member would need to commit to this level of activity on regular, continuing basis. And that my friend will never happen. Yet still the world spins on its axis.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 11:45
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Well, it's time to talk clear. 1.- The Black Codex is one of those bands we checked more, it took us countless hours to listen the huge amount of music 2.- Yes they have orchestral music with Symphonic tendencies that honestly made me vote yes 3.- But after reading the opinions of my teammates and after the painfully long process of listening all the music again, we noticed that this is one of the cases in which orchestral doesn't mean Symphonic Prog. 4.- Being that Chris is in Neo Prog, we asked to add this material to Chris Bruin's database 5.- Amatala replied "Chris doesn't want the Black Codex to be added with his material. 6.- Still we sent The Black Codex to Neo Prog 7.- The Neo Team replied NO, with this post by Roland:
8.- Now it isn't only the Symphonic Team, it's also at least 1/2 of the Neo Team. BTW: We changed our decision several times after receiving good feedback and well supported opinions, but telling us it's Symphonic because it is Symphonic or "All Symphonic Rock is Symphonic Prog" is not enough. My opinion is Prog Related or MAYBE...............Crossover, but that's for the Xover team to decide. Iván PS: In several years we haven't received a complain about rejections except Georg Voros who after talking with me understood our perspective and was kind enough to accept what we decided
So, we won't change our perspective, it's a waste of time and space to continue on this, because we won't accept The Black Codex in Symphonic because it's not Symphonic.
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Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 12:50
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The reason I did not want initially to have these albums added to Chris's page was because Chris stated that the correct artist name is The Black Codex, not Chris. Moreover, Chris is currently listed as Neo-prog and this project clearly is not Neo-prog, that much we can all agree upon. So I was hoping for a more accurate listing for this album. But since that is no longer possible, I can add these albums to Chris's page with the artist name between brackets e.g. Episodes 1-14 (The Black Codex), if everyone is happy with this workaround and be done with this discussion. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 12:56
Ask the Neo Prog Team -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 13:11
Yes that's quite right. What about it? ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 11 2015 at 12:34
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OK: I received EXPRESS authorization from a member of the Adm Team to add The Black Codex to http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2634" rel="nofollow - VARIOUS ARTISTS (CONCEPT ALBUMS & THEMED COMPILATIONS) Will be added next week if no complains. Iván -------------
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Posted By: mogol
Date Posted: September 13 2015 at 06:51
IMHO it's a mistake. There is no various artists in this project, so you are creating a dangerous precedent, which may cause a lot of headache in the future. If Black Codex is accepted as progressive rock artist, then it should be added to one of the usual subgenres, otherwise - just close this thread and forget it.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 13 2015 at 09:50
No it doesn't We have at least two albums by one composer and guests 1.- Jesus Christ Superstar: Andrew Lloyd Webber and guest artists 2.- Ponder of the Mystery: William Shatner & Billy Sherwood with guests 3.- The Black Codex: Chris Bruin & Guests -------------
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Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: September 14 2015 at 09:11
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Well, none of those should be listed under VARIOUS ARTISTS as they do belong to one single main artist and they are not compilations. If you don't listen to users like me, at least have a look at established references like Musicbrainz - none of those albums is listed as VA or COMPILATION on MB... http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/4dde8825-d003-3365-bc7d-41d5f2693d0f" rel="nofollow - http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/4dde8825-d003-3365-bc7d-41d5f2693d0f http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/0f8a9224-b44e-41d7-b395-c7f8b3b55296" rel="nofollow - http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/0f8a9224-b44e-41d7-b395-c7f8b3b55296 http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/b9e6d9f7-0162-43de-9c51-25c1ca5bcb93" rel="nofollow - http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/b9e6d9f7-0162-43de-9c51-25c1ca5bcb93 But, as always, PA knows best and does not listen to anyone. So let the mess be complete! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 14 2015 at 11:36
Well, Musicbrainz is a site related with Wikipedia not specializaed in Prog and for anybody to edit, Prog Archives is the reference for any Prog site, so we must be doing our job well.
If you don't like it, you can always leave, and don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 14 2015 at 11:49
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I really don't understand why amatala continue this? I don't want to upset you or attack to you amatala. You said what you want to said and you fight hard for your opinion and I respect to you but continue this and using this kind of discuss not Normal . I think you try to force others to accept your opinion not Ivan or PA. Honestly I don't think its work for you. I'm sure you will attack to me or accuse me to ... but I don't care about that. If PA doesn't listen to anyone , you listen to others. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 14 2015 at 12:47
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Added Episodes 1 - 13 http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=50339 Episodes 14 - 26 http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=50340 Episodes 27 - 39 http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=50341 Episodes 40 - 52 http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=50342 I could had placed all the episodes in one CD, but in this case, each one has independent release and it's own art cover, including two different years of release -------------
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Posted By: amatala
Date Posted: September 14 2015 at 13:32
Quoting any source outside of PA is an exercise in futility anyway, I was just curious what reason to discard it you would find this time and I must say I was not disappointed! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/amatala" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/amatala |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 14 2015 at 13:57
Do you believe Wikipedia is more accurate than Prog Archives? Then what are you doing here? -------------
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: September 14 2015 at 14:00
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Ivan, I'm not sure why you're discussing this. Decision made and move on. He's never going to agree with you. He's had more than fair input. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 14 2015 at 14:39
I agree. Somebody close the thread, because the band was added -------------
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