Was early 80's King Crimson really Prog?
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Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=99109
Printed Date: April 28 2024 at 11:22
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Topic: Was early 80's King Crimson really Prog?
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Was early 80's King Crimson really Prog?
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 13:47
| With the recent talk in threads about some King Crimson members, I decided to listen to two of my least favorite KC albums, Discipline and Beat. A friend first played Discipline for me when it first came out stating that 'it was KC but different.' After hearing the album, all I could agree to was that 'it was different.' After revisiting Discipline and Beat today (I didn't even bother with Three of a Perfect Pair), I'm still struck with the urge to either pull out some Talking Heads or early Roxy, or go the other way and pull out Larks Tongue or Red. Discipline and Beat come off to me as either jerky new wave without hooks and ironic lyrics or stiffer math rock versions of Larks Tongue. I'm never going to like them but do you consider early 80's KC prog? If so, why? |
Replies:
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 13:51
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Fripp doesn't even consider what KC did from '69-'74 to be 'prog'. Never forget the fact that Discipline was the name of a band who changed their name to 'King Crimson' (the same way 90125 was recorded by a band called Cinema who changed their name to 'Yes'). ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:53
Good question. Yes its prog because its progressive. No because its minimalistic post new wave ingratiating bullsh*t .
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 16:56
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Of course.. 80's KC is amazing and Discipline is one of their Top 3 albums. It's funky, unique, hardhitting, and Belew is one of a kind.
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 17:11
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Discipline - Yep. Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair- Maybe a little less so but still firmly in the art rock realm. ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: Imperial Zeppelin
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 17:54
| Prog. Not Prog. It's all elephant talk to me. |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 18:37
| Yes, Discipline is Prog. It started Math Rock, which is a Prog genre. Prog has always embraced unusual time signatures and polyrhythms that was the fuel for Discipline. Discipline experimented with timbres; all the unusual techniques Belew used in playing the guitar, the use of fretless guitars, the use of guitar synthesizers, the use of the Chapman Stick, and electronic percussion. Aside from the Sheltering Sky it didn't fit neatly into Symph Prog anymore, but so what? I love Symph Prog, but Symph Prog is not all inclusive of Prog. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 19:02
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Discipline, Beat and Three of Perfect Pair the albums were saved that progressive rock genre in the eighties imo. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 19:04
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HackettFan wrote:Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 19:26
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Yes.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005  |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 01:15
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Most definitely. They had that cerebral vibe that the previous eras had. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:47
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Absolutely. They were more proggy than neo-prog bands of the 80's but it doesn't mean they were better than Marillion or IQ. I think they chose an interesting direction but most of their 80's songs are not memorable. That's the problem. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 06:42
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Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 07:26
Exactly. At the time we didn’t call it "prog" but we sure could hear that it was innovative. And we loved it. ------------- He say nothing is quite what it seems; I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 07:36
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I think it was the most successful attempt to posit progressive rock as
an ongoing concern in the 1980s. It was different because it had to
be. Its brighter, funkier sound took cues from Talking Heads, Bowie,
and Eno, and their overall image was much more "new wave", which helped
distance them from the long-haired 70s thing. "Is it Prog (genre)?" - a loaded question because in many peoples' minds (including mine), they pretty much invented their own branch of progressive rock. If PA had existed in 1981 and they'd come up for evaluation, they probably would have been rejected because they didn't fit the mold of what had come before. But history has played itself out, and like it or not, they're prog. "Is it progressive?" - a separate question, to which I also say, yes it is, maybe in the strongest sense of the word. "Is it good?" -- another separate question. Personally, I'm not head over heels in love with this era of the band, but Belew's strange guitar sounds are endlessly cool, and his virtuosity is a neat complement to Fripp's own virtuosity. Belew is not a bad songwriter either. Tony Levin was an innovator in the bass seat - I don't know if he was the first guy to play the Chapman Stick, but he was my first exposure to it. And any band with Bruford on drums is bound to sound great. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 07:58
| You know, Joan Armatrading had some of this Crimso line-up playing for her at some stage. They can be heard on that song 'I don't know why they call me names'. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 14:50
| Excellent arguments for the early eighties band being prog, especially by HackettFan and Holy Moly, so prog it was and prog it still is. But please feel free to add to the mix. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 15:16
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I consider it to be proggy new wave, and I love those three albums. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: SmRanaldi
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 17:11
| Yes, it was. Of course it is not classic progressive, but it is as complex and beautiful as any other progressive work, and I really love those three albums. In my opinion, 80's King Crimson created a new kind of progressive which had influence in the development of many other prog-related genres. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 17:22
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Yes. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 19:19
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Was King Crimson's 80s period progressive? Of course! Who told you it wasn't? Each period of King Crimson represents progressive rock in some way. ------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 19:22
^Otay, Panky. 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 19:53
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Absolutely, just because it wasn't rehash of '70's style prog doesn't make it any less so. Granted there was some stuff more pop, but the prog songs were good prog.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 20:58
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'80s Crim was definitely prog. Easily discernibly so. Compositions like "Indiscipine" and "The Sheltering Sky" were charting new territory. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 23:26
"Was early 80's King Crimson really Prog?" |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: July 30 2014 at 00:41
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80s KC was a mixed bag of The Talking Heads(not really prog, artsy yes not proggy), New Wave(not really prog) and other weird stuff(prog). Was 80s King Crimson really Prog? Yes and No
------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 30 2014 at 01:46
Exactly People who think that only symphonic prog is prog are so boring. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 30 2014 at 08:09
 Now I know where you get your facts Svetonio! You should consult wikipedia before talking to this lady at your country's Ministry Of Information. Nice suit by the way. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 30 2014 at 10:29
Good, honest answer. I would say 80s KC is progressive rather than prog (in the sense often used on this website, to mean something approximate to the 70s approach to prog). And because it has the King Crimson badge, it gets an easy pass in classification compared to lots of other interesting rock and pop music from the same decade. Mind you, I love Discipline, it's one of my favourite albums across genres.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 30 2014 at 12:01
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Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: July 31 2014 at 18:47
And the pop songs were good pop. ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 01 2014 at 10:34
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Hi,
I stopped thinking of the word about 35 years ago. It's over-rated, stupid and depressing!
It has been nothing but a hassle to make up one's mind about anything, and besides, THE MUSIC IS BETTER THAN THE DEFINITION! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 02 2014 at 03:30
| 'Prog' and' Progressive' are not the same things. Progressive Rock as a movement barely lasted a few years imo. Prog took over as the style was established. King Crimson were one of the first bands to establish it and then break it down in equal measure. Quite clever really. |
Posted By: RockHound
Date Posted: August 02 2014 at 09:52
| '80s Crimson was most assuredly prog. Their explorations of polyrhythm and modality, IMHO, are the at the core of progressive music. And they found a sound that fit very well with the music of the 1980s and yet remains fresh and relevant today. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: August 02 2014 at 10:04
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The interesting question is not if it is - and that will always be up for debate. The interesting question is : why does it matter to you ? Would in the better if it was or was not prog ?
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 02 2014 at 10:17
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^
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 02 2014 at 10:58
I don't mind this cartoon but I think it is insensitive, and stupid. THERE ARE blind people out there, that can not read a sign ... but of course, you would rather laugh at their disability.
Good luck and godspeed when you are 65! You might not appreciate this as much then! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: PrognosticMind
Date Posted: August 02 2014 at 12:08
| I would most definitely consider it progressive! |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 05 2014 at 11:29
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 05 2014 at 11:49
| Some guys attacking KC and I dont know why. What is their problem? You never change opinions with this kind of posts and Questions. Why they using Questions? I think they afraid to show their opinions CLEARLY and use these kind of questions. |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: August 05 2014 at 11:58
Hmmmm...but blind people wouldn't be able to see this cartoon either...so... To answer the original question posed, yes I've always considered 80s KC prog. As Svetonio pointed out, there is more to prog than just symphonic. Discipline is about as close to prog punk as one can get I think. And Beat and Three were both experimental especially in the instrumentals. But also the pop songs had enough prog in them as well. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 05 2014 at 12:16
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 09:10
This is your normal answer and I guess that and ready for this!! You accuse others to proof your opinion. I read your posts and I know your opinion. Be honest dude! I "JUST" talked about my opinion. You accuse me easily :
1- Perhaps you should read the other posts as I have a much higher opinion of eighties era KC than before I posted 2 - as we sometimes blind ourselves to what we hear due to prejudice, poor timing, crummy stereo equipment at past times 3 - The important thing is to a have an open mind and respect for the people giving the responses 4 - that's a clue that perhaps you are missing something WOW. I know guys like you. Please be polite and honest. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 09:23
| It is not an attack on KC to merely suggest that 80s KC was perhaps more progressive than prog. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 09:30
They are mutually exclusive. Cut to the chase, honesty is NEVER polite (but can be positive) ------------- 
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 09:35
| You right and I Agree. |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 09:39
Another "this kind of questions" : Is RF overrated? do you see this? I think this is a systematic attack to KC. You can find more of "This kind of questions" in these days (IMO). They aimed KC clearly.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 09:41
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 09:44
As far I remember, *prog* in 1980 widely was still only an acronym for *progressive rock*. The term 'prog' is really starting to emerge in the early nineties with the prog metal i.e. that was when one metaller asks other metaller "hey what are you listening now?", and he / she responds "I listen now to prog mostly" - of course thinking about prog metal i.e. Dream Theater and the likes, not about some symphonic prog stuff from late 60 / early 70 lol. |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 09:48
| No.As I said before " My English isnt good" and I never want to fight or combat steveG. I only try to talked about music and my opinion. I dont know you and this isnt personal. Perhaps we have too many common opinions but I dont know why you attack to opposite opinions by accusing? And I dont understand your anger. |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 09:49
. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 09:57
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 10:04
To say that RF is overrated questions his abilities to some extent. But to say that perhaps 80s KC is not prog is not a blot on them as it is only a genre classification issue. Now of course if you are terribly attached to the prog tag, then....but you can't blame other members in the forum for being a little more detached.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 10:21
^ Prog was the eggy fart released in the crowded elevator circa 1980 and you damn well know it fine. Just like crushed velvet strides and patchouli oil, certain practices are relegated to the peripheries when it comes to the selective revisionism necessitated by shopping for say, flares when they ain't available. You have started a hell of a lot of threads recently (which is not necessarily a bad thing, so this is not a rebuke) but I like to think we BOTH intuit that what might pass for Prog in 2014 is a nostalgia for something that never happened in the first place by those who weren't even around to countenance such verisimilitude. -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 10:28
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 10:45
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Robert Fripp was skillfully worked at his own new style of progressive rock which was heavily inspired by post-punk / new wave aesthetics, but that wasn't turned *progressive* into * prog * or vice versa. It was still to be progressive rock without a question. Even more, Discipline, Beat and Three of the Perfect Pair the albums were saved the progressive rock because that trilogy brought that fresh air in our beloved genre. Btw, that (prog)trance contributed to the emancipation of the term * prog * as something separate from the progressive rock but it wasn't Mr Fripp and Discipline the album. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 10:50
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 11:01
Sorry, I put "^" in my post by mistake. I didn't reply to you actually.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 11:05
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^Good. That avoids an argument.
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 13:52
But, from your side, you wouldn't to dispute other fans who are prog-futurists and who believes in the future of our beloved genre. |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 13:59
and I Aprecciated |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 14:13
Good Point.
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Posted By: rocknrollcola
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 15:26
| Yes of course with elements of New Wave. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 15:30
| ^Greetings R&RCola and welcome to the party. Strap yourself in for the ride. It's a blast, Daddy-o! |
Posted By: uvtraveler
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 16:58
| If those 3 recordings aren't "progressive rock" (Discipline, Beat, Three of a Perfect Pair)...then the definition of the genre is way too narrow. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 17:19
I'm neither a nostalgic or sentimental person Svetonio. It's the retro proggers Transatlantic, Taproban, Wobbler, Areknames, Black Bonzo, (some recent) Steven Wilson et al who I am referring to. That's not to say the foregoing haven't made any fine music (as I enjoy most of them) but as the song says: tell me who doesn't love what can never come back? As for what is considered modern Prog, this will always be accompanied by a glance in the rear view mirror for musicians reverse engineering its future. -------------
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Posted By: rocknrollcola
Date Posted: August 07 2014 at 01:17
| Thank you very much SteveG |