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The English language/vocabulary/verbal phrases

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Topic: The English language/vocabulary/verbal phrases
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Subject: The English language/vocabulary/verbal phrases
Date Posted: August 13 2014 at 20:42
Preamble: I tried to jam in as many keywords as possible into the title of the thread, so there you have it. If you know a thread similar to this one (which I couldn't find), PM me, and I'll delete it (if no one else posts).

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This thread could be started on a more suitable forum of a different website. I just want to know if there are any souls out here interested to some extent or another in the English vocabulary (of any variant), its wealth and diversity. I don't personally consider myself a logophile, but more like an explorer who understands the necessity of filling in the gaps in my vocabulary, given that I've spent eight years in the States. Besides, maybe some of us are too lazy to register for an English language forum (you know who you are ) ... not me.

Any interesting (or boring) words that you've discovered or felt you need a refresher on?

Options:

 - You can just put a short annotation next to the word's entry whether it's a discovery or a refresher ... or something else.
 - Feel free to post however you want, a single word or a whole list of words per post, with or without links (though I'm sure some of us would like to see a source for them).
 - We can do "word of the day" here.
 - Terms with more than one word in them are welcome.
 - Don't be shy on the slang.
 - Vulgar words: ... eh ... that's an iffy one. I guess it depends on the word. As long as you can maintain an intelligent discussion on those, I won't mind. Let's see what the higher authority will say here. An admin ruled: no slurs.
 - Feel free to include verbal phrases (as indicated in the thread's title).



Replies:
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 15:51
This sounds like an interesting thread, if only I knew what it meant...?
Wink
 
 
Ok....does this one count? I have always wondered why the phrase:  "Jump the shark".
I know it's origin but I never completely understood the reason why it's used .
 
Confused


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 15:57
Because the episode of the Happy Days where Fonzie jumped the shark is considered the turning point from where The Happy Days went from a great show to it being a not so great show.  Basically, a "snap. you didn't just go there moment". 

Ironically, without that strange turn of events on Happy Days, we may have never been introduced to Mork from Ork and his friend Mindy.

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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 15:58
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

This sounds like an interesting thread, if only I knew what it meant...?
Wink
 
 
Ok....does this one count? I have always wondered why the phrase:  "Jump the shark".
I know it's origin but I never completely understood the reason why it's used .
 
Confused
Sounds like it evolved from a single reference, probably to add color to our language, make it richer.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 16:01
http://www.ask.com/question/what-is-a-indirect-metaphor" rel="nofollow - Just looked up what "indirect metaphor" means.  It appears that back in high school I was mistaught its meaning ... and that was in an Advanced Placement English class. [sigh] I was told that it's a metaphor that can only be understood only among a certain group of people (in the same way an in-joke works).


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 16:26
Here's something that's bugging me (slang). Words like jazz and gig were supposed to have been dirty at one time. I'm 62, and these words always had the same meaning. I think the deal (slang again) with English is that it goes back so far in time. Wasn't English derived from an old form of German back in the day? (slang one mo' time)


Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 16:30
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Because the episode of the Happy Days where Fonzie jumped the shark is
considered the turning point from where The Happy Days went from a great
show to it being a not so great show.  Basically, a "snap. you didn't
just go there moment".  Ironically, without that strange turn of
events on Happy Days, we may have never been introduced to Mork from
Ork and his friend Mindy.



As a "salute" to that episode of Happy Days, there is an episode of the X-Files titled "Jump the Shark" where the X-Files does just that and kills off all three of the Lone Gunmen ticking off all X-Files fans.   

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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?


Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 16:48
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Here's something that's bugging me (slang). Words like jazz and gig were supposed to have been dirty at one time. I'm 62, and these words always had the same meaning. I think the deal (slang again) with English is that it goes back so far in time. Wasn't English derived from an old form of German back in the day? (slang one mo' time)

Given our Anglo-Saxon heritage, thats quite likely, though we have a lot of words that are derived from French and it wouldn't surprise me to have some old Norse influence in there as well. Then of course there's plenty of words derived from old Latin and Greek. 


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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005



Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 16:58
I've stretched my OP by a smidgen:
Quote - Terms with more than one word in them are welcome.
With that said, I've looked up something new: the term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_decade" rel="nofollow - " 'Me' Decade" . Good grief. Now I have to look up http://www.google.com/search?q=atomized+individualism+definition&oq=atom&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l2j69i64j0l3.1847j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - "atomized individualism" and http://www.google.com/search?q=communitarianism+definition&oq=comm&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i64j0l4.1663j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - "communitarianism" . (Not sure why the software underlined (undercurved ) the latter as if it's misspelled.)


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 16:59
As a non-English native this thread may be hard to follow for me, but it could help me learning some interesting things.

I will start by asking where does the expression "it's raining cats and dogs" come from.


Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 17:05
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

As a non-English native this thread may be hard to follow for me, but it could help me learning some interesting things.

I will start by asking where does the expression "it's raining cats and dogs" come from.
Someone in history once stepped in a poodle. Wink


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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 17:08
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

As a non-English native this thread may be hard to follow for me, but it could help me learning some interesting things.

I will start by asking where does the expression "it's raining cats and dogs" come from.
How about "it's raining men"?

http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/rainingcats.html" rel="nofollow - This web-page suggests a rather "blurry" etymological history behind the expression.  There are some Norse roots, some Greek roots. Quite a few theories there.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/raining%20cats%20and%20dogs.html" rel="nofollow - This page repeats some of the same ideas as the one above.


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 22:41
As for phrases (or metaphors), their origins are always interesting; e.g. "Waiting for the other shoe to drop" has become symbology, but if you've ever lived with someone who loudly drops their hard-sole shoes on a wood floor, you cringe when the first one drops because you know the second one is coming.   A small human reality of day-to-day life becomes a representation of something more.

As for individual words, they continuously fascinate me.   Use of the best single word to describe what you mean can be a real challenge but very rewarding.   As the Beatles said, "Indicate precisely what you mean to say".   Better advice never given.



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 22:48
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

As for phrases (or metaphors), their origins are always interesting; e.g. "Waiting for the other shoe to drop" has become symbology, but if you've ever lived with someone who loudly drops their hard-sole shoes on a wood floor, you cringe when the first one drops because you know the second one is coming.   A small human reality of day-to-day life becomes a representation of something more.
One of the things I like about ideas, not words - creative thinking.

Here's another one I've never heard: http://www.google.com/search?q=ephebophile+definition&oq=ephebophile+definition&aqs=chrome.0.69i59.3226j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - ephebophile . Another word underlined with read by the software as if it doesn't exist. Exactly how many -philes are there out there?


Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 22:55
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

As for phrases (or metaphors), their origins are always interesting; e.g. "Waiting for the other shoe to drop" has become symbology, but if you've ever lived with someone who loudly drops their hard-sole shoes on a wood floor, you cringe when the first one drops because you know the second one is coming.   A small human reality of day-to-day life becomes a representation of something more.
One of the things I like about ideas, not words - creative thinking.

Here's another one I've never heard: http://www.google.com/search?q=ephebophile+definition&oq=ephebophile+definition&aqs=chrome.0.69i59.3226j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - ephebophile . Another word underlined with read by the software as if it doesn't exist. Exactly how many -philes are there out there?
As far as age goes, there are in order of age: nepiophilia (infant to toddler), pedophilia (prepubscent children), hebephilia (pubescent children), ephebophilia (postpubscent children), teleiophilia (adults), and gerontophilia (elderly). Ones I put in italics are ones I didn't know of until I looked them up.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 23:03
^ Oh, there are more than that! ... I bet there are many more than that, not just people as objects. I guess that just as long as you are allowed to be creative with the language, there has to be a myriad of -philes one could come up with. E.g., musicaphile/musicophile. How could I forget about the postfix? Embarrassed

One more word from me for today: http://www.google.com/search?q=quixotic+definition&oq=quixotic+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1399j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - quixotic . (I've never read Don Quixote, but I'd only guess what its protagonist is like.) I don't want to add "prerogative"; we all should know that one.


Posted By: zachfive
Date Posted: August 14 2014 at 23:38
A good English word of debated/unknown etymology(another good one) is copacetic. Meaning; fine, alright, excellent, all good. Most used in when asking someone or a group of people if they understand or are alright to continue...

Also this website is right up this threads alley  http://www.worldwidewords.org/index.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.worldwidewords.org/index.htm


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 00:17
^ Nice. Thumbs Up ... Though I have to say that, strangely, I've never heard anyone use the word "copacetic". Geek

Two more based on what I've seen on that page (at this moment): http://www.google.com/search?q=define+stratum&oq=define+stratum&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1282j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - s http://www.google.com/search?q=define+stratum&oq=define+stratum&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1282j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - tratum and http://www.google.com/search?q=epilimnion+definition&oq=epilimnion+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0.1128j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - epilimnion . Sometimes my brain functions so poorly that to get an idea of what the word means, I have to go to Google Images:  http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/graphics/photos0506/lakelayers.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/graphics/photos0506/lakelayers.jpg


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 03:19
Originally posted by zachfive zachfive wrote:

A good English word of debated/unknown etymology(another good one) is copacetic. Meaning; fine, alright, excellent, all good. Most used in when asking someone or a group of people if they understand or are alright to continue...

Also this website is right up this threads alley  http://www.worldwidewords.org/index.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.worldwidewords.org/index.htm
copacetic ... it's certainly an odd one (and a word I've never heard before) - the word certainly looks English but acetic means sour or like vinegar and "cop" isn't a negating prefix. Since it is of wholly North American origin my guess is its origin is based in street slang and has no etymological derivation.



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What?


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 03:34
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ Oh, there are more than that! ... I bet there are many more than that, not just people as objects. I guess that just as long as you are allowed to be creative with the language, there has to be a myriad of -philes one could come up with. E.g., musicaphile/musicophile.

I have this book Musicophilia (Tales of Music and the Brain) by neurologist Oliver Sacks, in which he discusses several quite amazing cases of people who's neurological condition has profound effects in their musicality. It's quite some time ago that I read it but I remember for example one man in his 40's who never had any particular interest in music, then was stuck by a lightning and suddenly had an urge to learn playing piano. Or people who after having suffered a seizure or brain damage have musical hallucinations, or become suddenly musical, or the opposite. Or an orquestra conductor who after suffering brain damage suffers severe amnesia and can not remember anything further than 7 seconds except for the music, he can still conduct full symphonies. And stories like that. 



Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

 
One more word from me for today: http://www.google.com/search?q=quixotic+definition&oq=quixotic+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1399j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - quixotic . (I've never read Don Quixote, but I'd only guess what its protagonist is like.) I don't want to add "prerogative"; we all should know that one.
Quixotic is a frequently used word in Spanish (not surprising as this book is considered one of the main works of classic Spanish literature).


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 04:06
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:


Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

 
One more word from me for today: http://www.google.com/search?q=quixotic+definition&oq=quixotic+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1399j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - quixotic . (I've never read Don Quixote, but I'd only guess what its protagonist is like.) I don't want to add "prerogative"; we all should know that one.
Quixotic is a frequently used word in Spanish (not surprising as this book is considered one of the main works of classic Spanish literature).
That's curious ... is it used in that Anglicised form or is it used in some form derived from the Spanish spelling of Quijote?


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What?


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 04:13
^ the spanish actual adjective is quijotesco (noun quijotería). Curiously though, the adjective in catalan is quixòtic.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 04:30
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

^ the spanish actual adjective is quijotesco (noun quijotería). Curiously though, the adjective in catalan is quixòtic.
Ah, it's less curious then. I presume that the Catalan word is wholly of Catalan derivation and its similarity to the Anglicised form is just consequence of both Catalan and English using the "-ic" suffix to turn a noun into an adjective.


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What?


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 04:35
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

^ the spanish actual adjective is quijotesco (noun quijotería). Curiously though, the adjective in catalan is quixòtic.
Ah, it's less curious then. I presume that the Catalan word is wholly of Catalan derivation and its similarity to the Anglicised form is just consequence of both Catalan and English using the "-ic" suffix to turn a noun into an adjective.
Indeed


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 05:07
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

^ the spanish actual adjective is quijotesco (noun quijotería). Curiously though, the adjective in catalan is quixòtic.
Ah, it's less curious then. I presume that the Catalan word is wholly of Catalan derivation and its similarity to the Anglicised form is just consequence of both Catalan and English using the "-ic" suffix to turn a noun into an adjective.
Indeed
Do you know of any words commonly used in Spanish that were borrowed into English and then taken back in their Anglicised form? 


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What?


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 07:04
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Do you know of any words commonly used in Spanish that were borrowed into English and then taken back in their Anglicised form? 
Ugh... letters are not really my strength... I'l think about it.
Of course many English words have Latin roots so they may be similar to their Spanish counterparts but this does not mean that they were borrowed from Spanish into English, most likely they came directly from Latin or from any other Latin language such as French or Italian. Likewise many anglicisms are used in Spanish, and some of them may have those Latin roots, but again this does not mean that the word was originally borrowed in English from Spanish and then returned in its anglicised form.

An example could be aquarium. It has the Latin root aqua (water, agua in Spanish) and although the proper Spanish word in Spanish is acuario, few people use it anymore and most people will now say or write aquarium or perhapsacuarium. But I don't think it came into English from Spanish, rather it came directly from Latin.

Possibly more clear cases can be found in the States were the Latin-American presence has been and is very important so the direct interplay between Spanish and English has been much stronger than in Europe, but I'm not so familiar with the modern Spanish they talk in the States.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 07:39
I was thinking of words we borrowed directly from Spanish like cargo, ranch and caldera whose English meaning is slightly different from similar English words with the same Latin root. For example caldera is derived from the Latin calderia meaning boiling pot, where we get (by way of a different route) cauldron, we don't use cauldron when we mean "mouth of a volcano" and we don't use caldera when we mean "cooking pot"... So my question would be, did the Spanish use caldera as a geological term before the English stole the word?

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What?


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 07:58
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I was thinking of words we borrowed directly from Spanish like cargo, ranch and caldera whose English meaning is slightly different from similar English words with the same Latin root. For example caldera is derived from the Latin calderia meaning boiling pot, where we get (by way of a different route) cauldron, we don't use cauldron when we mean "mouth of a volcano" and we don't use caldera when we mean "cooking pot"... So my question would be, did the Spanish use caldera as a geological term before the English stole the word?
I can't say for sure but I guess they did. We use caldera meaning either cauldron, kettle, boiler, the volcano mouth, the heart piece of a steam locomotive or other steam machines...


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 10:55
" http://www.google.com/search?q=alight+definition&oq=alight+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1433j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - Alight ". A lot of us probably use just the verb "land", but this is a synonym. Never heard a person use "alight" before when it comes to birds.

And I didn't know " http://www.google.com/search?q=oomph+definition&oq=oomph+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l3.1698j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - oomph " became a word ... in slang.

In other news, who around here used a word like " http://www.google.com/search?q=mannerism+definition&oq=mannerism+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1553j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - mannerism "/" http://www.google.com/search?q=mannered+definition&oq=mannered+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1610j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - mannered " in his music review?


Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 11:01
I use it all the time. "Hey buddy, got alight?"   

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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 11:02


Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 11:07
Alit is a popular answer in crossword puzzles when referring to landing.

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 14:17
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

" http://www.google.com/search?q=alight+definition&oq=alight+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1433j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - Alight ". A lot of us probably use just the verb "land", but this is a synonym. Never heard a person use "alight" before when it comes to birds.


It is not a synonym. When you dismounted from a horse you made its burden lighter and this is where "alight from a train" comes from. Over time this came to mean the act of coming down from the horse rather than the act of making its burden lighter, so was applied to the act of a bird coming down from the air onto a branch or perch even though pedantically the act of alighting on a branch makes it heavier rather than lighter. 

The use for "to settle or perch" is uncommon and can sound clumsy compared to "land"  because we hardly ever use it in the present tense, we would normally use it in the past tense "the bird alighted on the branch" or "we saw the birds alighting on the branch". We can also use this meaning when referring to sight, as in "our gaze alighted on a pretty trinket"

The more-common use of the word 'alight' is similar to Chester's witticism and means something on fire or lit up. "The lamp was alight" or "a discarded match set the forest alight"


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What?


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 14:21
I see.

I learned how to spell " http://www.google.com/search?q=pizzazz+definition&oq=pizzazz+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l2.1469j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - pizzazz " and got a grip on its meaning. Really an ugly-sounding word. It's not even pronounced like "pizza". ... Another new one for me: " http://www.google.com/search?q=gaffe+definition&oq=gaffe+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1429j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - gaffe ". ... And that's an interesting one: " http://www.google.com/search?q=ignosticism+definition&oq=ignosticism+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64.1531j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - ignosticism " (no, not agnosticism).


Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 14:46
Really? I've always liked the word pizzazz. It's got pizzazz.

I must admit to never having heard the word ignosticism before. And it appears from the red-line underneath the word, that I'm not the only one. Sounds very close to agnosticism, with the exception of the statement that God need not be debated or discussed.

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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 14:49
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Really? I've always liked the word pizzazz. It's got pizzazz.
I guess it's just coming from me as a person from a country where the young, immature 8th-graders would make fun of it (in a suggestive way ).


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 15 2014 at 22:39
Here's one of my favorites, for its definition and the way it sounds: " http://www.google.com/search?q=define+casuistry&oq=define+casuistry&aqs=chrome..69i64j0.802j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - casuistry ".


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 16 2014 at 21:21
The word 'pizzazz' reminds me of another word, 'snazzy'. One time quite a number of years ago now, I told a fellow graduate student her outfit looked snazzy. She was from Germany. English was a second language for her, but she had a very strong command of it. She had a had never heard this word before and asked me about it. I was very much at a loss for words. She wanted to know how it compared to nice, good, beautiful, etc. One of the definitions I looked up just now is "conspicuously or flashily attractive" (www.merriam-webster.com). That's pretty good. I wish I had thought of it at the time. Still it doesn't feel like the definition gets one very far without some actual life experience in using the word. I just know snazzy when I see it.

Her outfit was quite snazzy. —vs.— Her outfit had a lot of pizzazz.

Hmmm...


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 00:30
As somebody who lives in a country where English is only a second language, what I have seen is the way we use English is too functional and literal.  Maybe (some) Indians may have a good command over English from a grammatical point of view but they probably tend to think in their native language first and then translate it into English.  As a result, the English they/we speak is often devoid of idioms or slang and lacks flavour.  What words like pizzazz or snazzy do is to add flavour.  That is one reason I usually avoid English novels written by Indian authors because either their English is bad, really bad or their writing is too laboured and tiresome to read whereas reading British or American authors gives me more insight into how native speakers use the language.  

Not quite a new word, but I would like to toss in the word aggressiveness and ask about its origins and context, errrm if any, here.  Somehow the word doesn't sound right to me and I can say fairly confidently that I never heard it in my growing up years and have never come across it in any work of fiction (didn't notice if I did, at any rate) that I've read.  What nuance is aggressiveness supposed to convey that the usage aggression doesn't?  I have heard the word mostly on news channels and in tennis commentary so it may well be a crap word, mind. But if it is not, I would be glad to learn more about where I could possibly use it in a sensible way. 


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 03:06
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

As somebody who lives in a country where English is only a second language, what I have seen is the way we use English is too functional and literal.  Maybe (some) Indians may have a good command over English from a grammatical point of view but they probably tend to think in their native language first and then translate it into English.  As a result, the English they/we speak is often devoid of idioms or slang and lacks flavour.  What words like pizzazz or snazzy do is to add flavour.  That is one reason I usually avoid English novels written by Indian authors because either their English is bad, really bad or their writing is too laboured and tiresome to read whereas reading British or American authors gives me more insight into how native speakers use the language.
An interesting, prudent perspective.


Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Not quite a new word, but I would like to toss in the word aggressiveness and ask about its origins and context, errrm if any, here.  Somehow the word doesn't sound right to me and I can say fairly confidently that I never heard it in my growing up years and have never come across it in any work of fiction (didn't notice if I did, at any rate) that I've read.  What nuance is aggressiveness supposed to convey that the usage aggression doesn't?  I have heard the word mostly on news channels and in tennis commentary so it may well be a crap word, mind. But if it is not, I would be glad to learn more about where I could possibly use it in a sensible way.
I don't know if you've checked out other sources, but I hope http://grammarist.com/usage/aggression-aggressiveness/" rel="nofollow - this one helps.

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In the wake of the Ferguson shooting, protests, riots, and looting, I've come across a word on  http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/14/who-is-antonio-french-the-alderman-providing-updates-from-ferguson/" rel="nofollow - this page  - " http://www.google.com/search?q=alderman+definition&oq=alderman+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1392j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - alderman ". It's interesting that within the context of the article, the meaning of "alderman" is more than just some boring "member of a municipal council". It gives more detail. Is this what aldermen/alderwomen usually do? Documenting how the government and the people are doing?


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 03:39
Thanks, I hadn't read that.  Yes, it would make sense if it is indeed more of a North American usage because English pedagogy in India is based more around the, well, English way of handling it, including and not limited to English spelling and pronunciation. As in, we still say mult-ee or sem-ee rather than mult-I or sem-I (the latter pronunciation is pretty much like nails to a chalkboard for me LOL though I can see how it would make sense) and used to pronounce schedule with a shhh before American pronunciation became a fad somewhere around the early noughties.

I am still a bit confused about the usage of aggressiveness (most likely because I don't use it).  If it is intended in a positive or even neutral light to indicate an attitude, I would personally prefer to use assertive because an aggressive attitude in interpersonal communication tends to convey a more negative meaning (unless such aggression is warranted or required).  Maybe speakers who use the word want to emphasise a competitive attitude a little more than the word assertive conveys and therefore use aggressiveness.  I've even heard the word used to describe an equity stock on an upward trajectory and that makes no sense.

Never heard the word alderman before, used to think it was the name of an 80s Australian fast bowler.  Thanks man, must look that up.     


Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 05:41
I can't say 'whoop-de-f**king-doo' out loud twice in a row without laughing

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 05:52
To my English ears 'aggressiveness' sounds clumsy and contrived, as is often the case with forming nouns from the adjective form of an existing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_noun" rel="nofollow - mass noun by adding a -ness suffix. 

In this particular case the -ness ending doesn't fit the adjective 'aggressive' cleanly to mean the state, measure or quality of aggression as it does with adjectives like 'active' or 'lively' since aggression is already a mass noun. That this word is often used in sports journalism but rarely appears in literature doesn't surprise me.


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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 05:57
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

To my English ears 'aggressiveness' sounds clumsy and contrived, as is often the case with forming nouns from the adjective form of an existing  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_noun" rel="nofollow - mass noun  by adding a -ness suffix. 

In this particular case the -ness ending doesn't fit the adjective 'aggressive' cleanly to mean the state, measure or quality of aggression as it does with adjectives like 'active' or 'lively' since aggression is already a mass noun. That this word is often used in sports journalism but rarely appears in literature doesn't surprise me.

Yes, that's what annoys me when I read the word too.  As you said, aggression is already a noun form and aggressive is the adjective derived from it.  To add a 'ness' and convert it back to noun doesn't sound aesthetically appropriate, at least not to me and it seems I am not alone.  I think it belong in the same category as competitiveness which webster lists as a synonym - only fit to be used in wordy business analysis reports.  I don't know how and where sports commentary morphed into getting so jargon-ated, but such is the case.


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 09:58
I hadn't actually known the word 'aggressiveness' was just a North American thing. I didn't look at Dayvenkirq's link yet, but working from intuition, I would say that aggression is a way acting that reflects a state of mind. Aggressiveness is just a way of acting that reflects a commitment to opportunistic advancement (in driving in traffic, in sports, in the stock market, etc.) that is constant and undelayed. This is metaphorically related to aggression, as when you get in someone's face you are advancing forward.   Aggressiveness, however, does not imply anything about your state of mind other than you are being competitive or opportunistic. I don't find aggression a great way to talk about a serve and volley game in tennis, for instance, because there is normally no anger involved, but 'aggressiveness' is a useful word for describing a commitment to approach the net.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 10:24
I wouldn't use the word aggression in that context either (of serve and volley).  But I have usually described it or heard it described as "aggressive tactics" or "attacking approach".  Another word often used is "offensive" as it signifies taking the attack to the opponent.  I actually heard aggressiveness in a tennis match for the first time only last year, and yes it was in the North American hard court season.  So well past the glory days of serve and volley...not that that matters.  American usage itself seems to be evolving.  On the song Certifiable #1 Smash, Kevin Gilbert pronounces multicultural the way English/Indian speakers would so perhaps the styling mult-I wasn't born yet.  But it's always sem-I final now. 


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 10:36
Aggression means "to attack" - any forward motion (advancement) in that is implicit, this attack can be motivated by anger but not necessarily so. Both aggression and aggressive can also mean "readiness to attack or confront". This isn't metaphorical, it is literal - aggressive means 'ready to attack' and aggressiveness means 'being ready to attack' - that is not competitive or opportunistic, nor is it defensive. Since the -ness ending does literally mean "a state of aggression" or "a measure of aggression" then that directly refers to a state of mind. In sports commentary it is possible that it is being used metaphorically to mean competitiveness but since sporting events are attack vs. defence I honestly doubt that any metaphoric use is intended.

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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 10:42
^^^  In fact, it used to be that, at least in tennis, the word attack was used when it referred to the tactical approach involved and aggression to refer to body language or mindset.  Aggressiveness may have been used earlier too in tennis, I can't say for sure but I only heard it during a match for the first time last year.  Before that, I had heard some Indian news casters who fake an American accent use that word so I assumed it to be smug half baked English but when I heard it used in a tennis match by a presumably American commentator, I realised there was in fact such a word and an accepted usage at that.


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 11:24
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Aggression means "to attack" - any forward motion (advancement) in that is implicit, this attack can be motivated by anger but not necessarily so. Both aggression and aggressive can also mean "readiness to attack or confront". This isn't metaphorical, it is literal - aggressive means 'ready to attack' and aggressiveness means 'being ready to attack' - that is not competitive or opportunistic, nor is it defensive. Since the -ness ending does literally mean "a state of aggression" or "a measure of aggression" then that directly refers to a state of mind. In sports commentary it is possible that it is being used metaphorically to mean competitiveness but since sporting events are attack vs. defence I honestly doubt that any metaphoric use is intended.

Not for me, aggressive does not mean "ready to attack". One can have an aggressive driving style, which doesn't mean that your confronting other drivers, just that a driver is taking every opportunity to fill gaps in the traffic and is not driving defensively. Aggressiveness in the stock market would also be a metaphor. It's a way of actively buying and selling and being generally bullish, not about attacking anything. You spoke about sporting events being about attack vs. defense, but that's already a metaphor. I can't use 'aggression' to convey these things at all. Apparently, as I just learned, 'aggression' can be used for things like serve and volleying in tennis, so the metaphor also took place in England's English and India's English, but linked it to the already established morphology.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 11:27
Actually I said that I had heard the usage aggressive tactics, neither aggression nor aggressiveness.  It is more an issue of aesthetics rather than grammar.  There's nothing grammatically wrong with aggressiveness, it's a recognised word.  It just sounds (to me) kind of clumsy and wordy.  I would actually prefer to use two words (in this case aggressive tactics) to convey the meaning I intend than to use aggressiveness.  


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 11:57
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Actually I said that I had heard the usage aggressive tactics, neither aggression nor aggressiveness.  It is more an issue of aesthetics rather than grammar.  There's nothing grammatically wrong with aggressiveness, it's a recognised word.  It just sounds (to me) kind of clumsy and wordy.  I would actually prefer to use two words (in this case aggressive tactics) to convey the meaning I intend than to use aggressiveness.  

Indeed. This is all very interesting. It doesn't sound clumsy or wordy to me, not surprising considering that I'm from North America. I've been supposing that it doesn't sound clumsy because 'aggression' is not a viable alternative for me without changing the meaning.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 12:01
As Dean put it, it doesn't feel right for me to say it when it's a noun derived from an adjective derived in turn from a common noun, by simply adding a ness at the end.  I.e. Aggressiveness <<< aggressive <<<<  aggression.  I guess it depends on whether or not you regard the noun form as the original/source form of the word.  I do and probably speakers with a certain approach to the language (that is similar to mine) do too.  


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 13:03
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 On the song Certifiable #1 Smash, Kevin Gilbert pronounces multicultural the way English/Indian speakers would so perhaps the styling mult-I wasn't born yet.  But it's always sem-I final now. 
The one aspect of the English language that I like the most is it is a living language - it evolves and adapts and is forever changing, words like "bad" now mean "good" just as "awful" originally meant "worthy of respect" (literally "full of awe"). Unlike many other languages it is not resistant to change and readily adopts new words and subtle changes in meaning; the English language has such a vast vocabulary because of this and not just from the melding of the Northern European Germanic/Anglo-Saxon with the Romance languages of Southern Europe. 

American English (as odd as it may seem) does not evolve as quickly or as often as British English. This seems counter-intuitive because much play is made of the Americanisation of British English, for all its adaptability and willingness to change nothing raises the hackles of an Englishman more that to hear his native tongue suffer the vandalism of Americanisation, to see colour spelt without a 'u' (or color spelled without a 'u') for example. Yet since the creation of the American nation 400 years ago the two dialects have diverged and it has been British English that has changed more, for example the "u" in colour and favour is an addition into English spelling since Elizabethan times, the lack of  the 'u" in Americanised spelling is not an omission. Neither forms of English would be recognisable to an Elizabethan.

The same is true of pronunciation - words like schedule and controversy have changed in Britain since the 1600s whereas in America they have remained unchanged. Whether "sch" should be pronounced "shh" or "sk" was should ideally be determined by the pronunciation of the root word in the language it was derived from ..."shh" for Germanic words and "sk" for Latin words. But English doesn't do that - the Germanic 'school' is pronounced 'skool' on both sides of the Atlantic whereas the Germanic pronunciation should be 'shhool' (like the German 'schule'). Since schedule has a Latin etymology then "skedule" is the 'correct' pronunciation, it is British English that has given it a Germanic pronunciation. Unfortunately though, that cannot be viewed as a generalisation since 'schism' is usually given a Latin "skism" pronunciation in both dialects but some American's give it the softer "shhism". 

It could be that sem-eye could be an older pronunciation than sem-ee, but in this case I doubt it since every other Romance language seems to pronounce it sem-ee

Like "aggressiveness" makes an unnecessary noun from an adjective that was already derived from a noun, the Americanisation of English that is guaranteed to wind-up a Brit and the one we are most resistant to is the creation of unnecessary verbs from nouns (incentivise) or using nouns as verbs (impact). Applying a rule that converts a noun to a verb for every noun just seems superfluous and nouns as verbs just sounds lazy.

Of course, none of this explains (or excuses) missing the "i" in Aluminium or the "l" in Solder.



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Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 13:30
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


As Dean put it, it doesn't feel right for me to say it when it's a noun derived from an adjective derived in turn from a common noun, by simply adding a ness at the end.  I.e. Aggressiveness <<< aggressive <<<<  aggression.  I guess it depends on whether or not you regard the noun form as the original/source form of the word.  I do and probably speakers with a certain approach to the language (that is similar to mine) do too.  

Yeah, I think technically 'aggressive' is derived from the somewhat archaic verb 'aggress', not from 'aggression' (notice other words with -ive attach to verbs, e.g. restrict-ive). 'Aggression' is an alternate derivation with -ion, but basically it comes down to the competition between the two. If you can extend the meaning of 'aggression' as it appears you can from your post, then why derive a second noun and not call it awkward? I get that. But the extension of meaning of 'aggression' was a parallel development that hadn't happened in North America, and therefore 'aggressiveness' isn't awkward at all in that context. Well, that's how I've made sense of it in any case.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 13:35
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Aggression means "to attack" - any forward motion (advancement) in that is implicit, this attack can be motivated by anger but not necessarily so. Both aggression and aggressive can also mean "readiness to attack or confront". This isn't metaphorical, it is literal - aggressive means 'ready to attack' and aggressiveness means 'being ready to attack' - that is not competitive or opportunistic, nor is it defensive. Since the -ness ending does literally mean "a state of aggression" or "a measure of aggression" then that directly refers to a state of mind. In sports commentary it is possible that it is being used metaphorically to mean competitiveness but since sporting events are attack vs. defence I honestly doubt that any metaphoric use is intended.
 
Not for me, aggressive does not mean "ready to attack". One can have an aggressive driving style, which doesn't mean that your confronting other drivers, just that a driver is taking every opportunity to fill gaps in the traffic and is not driving defensively. Aggressiveness in the stock market would also be a metaphor. It's a way of actively buying and selling and being generally bullish, not about attacking anything. You spoke about sporting events being about attack vs. defense, but that's already a metaphor. I can't use 'aggression' to convey these things at all. Apparently, as I just learned, 'aggression' can be used for things like serve and volleying in tennis, so the metaphor also took place in England's English and India's English, but linked it to the already established morphology.
Sorry, but I think you are wrong on every count here.

If an aggressive driver is not driving defensively then he is driving offensively. To go on the offensive is to attack. And aggressive driving style is confrontational, it is not that the driver is taking every opportunity to fill gaps in traffic, he is using aggression to create them. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggressive_driving" rel="nofollow - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggressive_driving ). Aggressive driving is not a positive trait unless it is on the racetrack (and even then it is seen as irresponsible if it endangers the lives of other drivers).

Aggressive really does mean "ready to attack", that's part of http://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Aggressive" rel="nofollow -  the dictionary definition of the word

In the stock market example you are mixing up your metaphors (erm, not mixing metaphors that something different). Bullish is the metaphor, to act like a bull is to be aggressive and assertive. A bullish market is an aggressive one, not the other way around. Aggressive buying is precisely and literally about attacking the market. In business a hostile takeover is an act of aggression against a company that is unwilling to be bought or resistant to the merger - it is an attack.

Attack and Defence in sport is not a metaphor, it is literal. When one side attacks the other defends - that is precisely what it means. How can this be a metaphor? If a player has an aggressive serve it means he has an attacking serve, this again is not a metaphor. 




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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 14:33
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 
As Dean put it, it doesn't feel right for me to say it when it's a noun derived from an adjective derived in turn from a common noun, by simply adding a ness at the end.  I.e. Aggressiveness <<< aggressive <<<<  aggression.  I guess it depends on whether or not you regard the noun form as the original/source form of the word.  I do and probably speakers with a certain approach to the language (that is similar to mine) do too.   
 
Yeah, I think technically 'aggressive' is derived from the somewhat archaic verb 'aggress', not from 'aggression' (notice other words with -ive attach to verbs, e.g. restrict-ive). 'Aggression' is an alternate derivation with -ion, but basically it comes down to the competition between the two. If you can extend the meaning of 'aggression' as it appears you can from your post, then why derive a second noun and not call it awkward? I get that. But the extension of meaning of 'aggression' was a parallel development that hadn't happened in North America, and therefore 'aggressiveness' isn't awkward at all in that context. Well, that's how I've made sense of it in any case.
This is an example where the verb is not the root word in English as the words arrived full-formed in their noun and adjective forms without the accompanying verb. An example of this is "passive" (adj) and "passion" (noun) -  the verb-form "pass" (meaning to suffer) does not exist in English. So Aggress is not the root word, it archaic but not as old as the word Aggression. The verb Aggress is a back-formation from Aggression that appeared much later. Aggressive as an adjective is derived from the noun Aggression, not from the verb Aggress. 

Aggress (verb - archaic) meant "to attack, attack first"
Aggression (noun) means "an attack, unprovoked attack"
Aggressive (adjective) means "likely to attack"

I don't quite follow what you mean by parallel development.



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Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 14:36
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Aggression means "to attack" - any forward motion (advancement) in that is implicit, this attack can be motivated by anger but not necessarily so. Both aggression and aggressive can also mean "readiness to attack or confront". This isn't metaphorical, it is literal - aggressive means 'ready to attack' and aggressiveness means 'being ready to attack' - that is not competitive or opportunistic, nor is it defensive. Since the -ness ending does literally mean "a state of aggression" or "a measure of aggression" then that directly refers to a state of mind. In sports commentary it is possible that it is being used metaphorically to mean competitiveness but since sporting events are attack vs. defence I honestly doubt that any metaphoric use is intended.
 Not for me, aggressive does not mean "ready to attack". One can have an aggressive driving style, which doesn't mean that your confronting other drivers, just that a driver is taking every opportunity to fill gaps in the traffic and is not driving defensively. Aggressiveness in the stock market would also be a metaphor. It's a way of actively buying and selling and being generally bullish, not about attacking anything. You spoke about sporting events being about attack vs. defense, but that's already a metaphor. I can't use 'aggression' to convey these things at all. Apparently, as I just learned, 'aggression' can be used for things like serve and volleying in tennis, so the metaphor also took place in England's English and India's English, but linked it to the already established morphology.
Sorry, but I think you are wrong on every count here.
If an aggressive driver is not driving defensively then he is driving offensively. To go on the offensive is to attack. And aggressive driving style is confrontational, it is not that the driver is taking every opportunity to fill gaps in traffic, he is using aggression to create them. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggressive_driving" rel="nofollow - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggressive_driving ). Aggressive driving is not a positive trait unless it is on the racetrack (and even then it is seen as irresponsible if it endangers the lives of other drivers).
Aggressive really does mean "ready to attack", that's part of http://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Aggressive" rel="nofollow -  the dictionary definition of the word
<span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;">In the stock market example you are mixing up your metaphors (erm, not mixing metaphors that something different). Bullish is the metaphor, to act like a bull is to be aggressive and assertive. A bullish market is an aggressive one, not the other way around. Aggressive buying is precisely and literally about attacking the market. In business a hostile takeover is an act of aggression against a company that is unwilling to be bought or resistant to the merger - it is an attack.</span>
Attack and Defence in sport is not a metaphor, it is literal. When one side attacks the other defends - that is precisely what it means. How can this be a metaphor? If a player has an aggressive serve it means he has an attacking serve, this again is not a metaphor. 



No, I have to disagree on every point as well. However, before I go on in any detail, let me point out that there is a fundamental divide in semantics. One says that there are individual core meanings that are then extended as necessary to the full universe of possible meaning (the model I'm presuming). The other says that the entire universe of possible meaning is anticipated in human cognition and divided up with sufficient abstraction to cover everything (the model you're presuming). In other words, you are only accepting what I am calling metaphorical extension as part of a single abstract meaning, abstract enough to cover all cases that the word is used for. It is an entirely rational thing to do, arrive at a full generalization. Part of the problem with that, however, is what we are running into right now when abstractions differ it provides no way to calibrate and compare them. As example of this point I am simply going to point out that you misinterpreted what I said about aggressiveness in the stock market. 'Aggressive trading' in the meaning that I'm familiar with (which for the moment is what we're talking about) has nothing to do with hostile takeover. It means that an investor buying and selling frequently with a high risk tolerance. In the other case with aggressiveness in driving, what I am talking about is a manner of going about driving that could be applied to a motorcyclist practicing by himself on a motocross track. Aggressiveness, as I am referring to it, could also be applied to a single competitor on an obstacle course. Now there still could be a notion of "attacking" in a very very abstract sense (e.g. 'He really attacked the course'), but since since the course doesn't defend itself, I would say this is not part of a broader abstract definition of the word, but rather a metaphorical extension of a tighter core meaning. In the same vein, I would say that 'He was very aggressive throughout the (obstacle) course' is similarly a metaphorical extension.


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 15:00
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 As Dean put it, it doesn't feel right for me to say it when it's a noun derived from an adjective derived in turn from a common noun, by simply adding a ness at the end.  I.e. Aggressiveness <<< aggressive <<<<  aggression.  I guess it depends on whether or not you regard the noun form as the original/source form of the word.  I do and probably speakers with a certain approach to the language (that is similar to mine) do too.   
 Yeah, I think technically 'aggressive' is derived from the somewhat archaic verb 'aggress', not from 'aggression' (notice other words with -ive attach to verbs, e.g. restrict-ive). 'Aggression' is an alternate derivation with -ion, but basically it comes down to the competition between the two. If you can extend the meaning of 'aggression' as it appears you can from your post, then why derive a second noun and not call it awkward? I get that. But the extension of meaning of 'aggression' was a parallel development that hadn't happened in North America, and therefore 'aggressiveness' isn't awkward at all in that context. Well, that's how I've made sense of it in any case.
This is an example where the verb is not the root word in English as the words arrived full-formed in their noun and adjective forms without the accompanying verb. An example of this is "passive" (adj) and "passion" (noun) -  the verb-form "pass" (meaning to suffer) does not exist in English. So <span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;">Aggress is not the root word, it archaic but not as old as the word Aggression. The verb Aggress is a back-formation from Aggression that appeared much later. Aggressive as an adjective is derived from the noun Aggression, not from the verb Aggress. </span>
Aggress (verb - archaic) meant "to attack, attack first"
Aggression (noun) means "an attack, unprovoked attack"
Aggressive (adjective) means "likely to attack"
I don't quite follow what you mean by parallel development.


A parallel historical development. Rogerthat can say the tennis player played with aggression. I cannot do so and mean the same thing. I am positing that what Rogerthat can do is a later development that occurred outside North America.

A back formation would indeed make 'aggression' older than 'aggress'. But if the back formation is older than aggressive, then it still makes more sense to say that aggressive is derived from aggress, otherwise the reason we don't have the form 'aggressionive' would be without explanation.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 19:09
We are just contradicting each other now. I cannot respond without repeating myself, I cannot see where any of this is metaphoric or abstract and I cannot find any of your definitions in the dictionary so I'm giving up. 

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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 20:43
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 On the song Certifiable #1 Smash, Kevin Gilbert pronounces multicultural the way English/Indian speakers would so perhaps the styling mult-I wasn't born yet.  But it's always sem-I final now. 
The one aspect of the English language that I like the most is it is a living language - it evolves and adapts and is forever changing, words like "bad" now mean "good" just as "awful" originally meant "worthy of respect" (literally "full of awe"). Unlike many other languages it is not resistant to change and readily adopts new words and subtle changes in meaning; the English language has such a vast vocabulary because of this and not just from the melding of the Northern European Germanic/Anglo-Saxon with the Romance languages of Southern Europe. 

American English (as odd as it may seem) does not evolve as quickly or as often as British English. This seems counter-intuitive because much play is made of the Americanisation of British English, for all its adaptability and willingness to change nothing raises the hackles of an Englishman more that to hear his native tongue suffer the vandalism of Americanisation, to see colour spelt without a 'u' (or color spelled without a 'u') for example. Yet since the creation of the American nation 400 years ago the two dialects have diverged and it has been British English that has changed more, for example the "u" in colour and favour is an addition into English spelling since Elizabethan times, the lack of  the 'u" in Americanised spelling is not an omission. Neither forms of English would be recognisable to an Elizabethan.

The same is true of pronunciation - words like schedule and controversy have changed in Britain since the 1600s whereas in America they have remained unchanged. Whether "sch" should be pronounced "shh" or "sk" was should ideally be determined by the pronunciation of the root word in the language it was derived from ..."shh" for Germanic words and "sk" for Latin words. But English doesn't do that - the Germanic 'school' is pronounced 'skool' on both sides of the Atlantic whereas the Germanic pronunciation should be 'shhool' (like the German 'schule'). Since schedule has a Latin etymology then "skedule" is the 'correct' pronunciation, it is British English that has given it a Germanic pronunciation. Unfortunately though, that cannot be viewed as a generalisation since 'schism' is usually given a Latin "skism" pronunciation in both dialects but some American's give it the softer "shhism". 

It could be that sem-eye could be an older pronunciation than sem-ee, but in this case I doubt it since every other Romance language seems to pronounce it sem-ee

Like "aggressiveness" makes an unnecessary noun from an adjective that was already derived from a noun, the Americanisation of English that is guaranteed to wind-up a Brit and the one we are most resistant to is the creation of unnecessary verbs from nouns (incentivise) or using nouns as verbs (impact). Applying a rule that converts a noun to a verb for every noun just seems superfluous and nouns as verbs just sounds lazy.

Of course, none of this explains (or excuses) missing the "i" in Aluminium or the "l" in Solder.


That was very interesting.  Clap  I had thought that the 'u' in colour was dropped in America because to spell it color matches the pronunciation better.  Likewise with skedule as opposed to shhedule.  It is interesting to learn that those were in fact accepted usages in England which were modified later, but not in America.  


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 20:55
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

 
A parallel historical development. Rogerthat can say the tennis player played with aggression. I cannot do so and mean the same thing. I am positing that what Rogerthat can do is a later development that occurred outside North America.

A back formation would indeed make 'aggression' older than 'aggress'. But if the back formation is older than aggressive, then it still makes more sense to say that aggressive is derived from aggress, otherwise the reason we don't have the form 'aggressionive' would be without explanation.

No, rather I think both myself and Dean have said you cannot use aggression to describe the nature of the tactical approach used, in the sense of a tendency to move forward or tendency to attack.  Since aggressive means "likely to attack", the term (rather than a single word) aggressive tactics conveys it better.  And as I said earlier, the more common usage always was attacking or offensive tennis.  Offensive and attacking are closer antonyms of defensive and make more sense.  Using an adjective to describe the kind of tennis a player is playing makes more sense to me than to use a noun.  So instead of saying "Federer played attacking tennis",  I might substitute it with "Federer was aggressive in his approach".  The latter is less precise but might still be understood in context.  However, if I said, "Federer showed aggression", it would imply that he did stuff like baring his teeth angrily to his opponent or yelled at the umpire. The bald, unqualified statement "Federer was aggressive" could also be easily misinterpreted. 

 As between aggressiveness and aggression, aggressiveness is a better word to use in this context (which is why it has now come into usage) but for aesthetic reasons, I would much rather use aggressive with an appropriate noun following it to describe what was aggressive.  Or, I would much rather not use any word from that family in that context and stick to attacking or offensive.  All of which might explain why I was puzzled when I heard aggressiveness in sports commentary.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 17 2014 at 21:02
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Sorry, but I think you are wrong on every count here.

If an aggressive driver is not driving defensively then he is driving offensively. To go on the offensive is to attack. And aggressive driving style is confrontational, it is not that the driver is taking every opportunity to fill gaps in traffic, he is using aggression to create them. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggressive_driving" rel="nofollow - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggressive_driving ). Aggressive driving is not a positive trait unless it is on the racetrack (and even then it is seen as irresponsible if it endangers the lives of other drivers).

Aggressive really does mean "ready to attack", that's part of http://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Aggressive" rel="nofollow -  the dictionary definition of the word

In the stock market example you are mixing up your metaphors (erm, not mixing metaphors that something different). Bullish is the metaphor, to act like a bull is to be aggressive and assertive. A bullish market is an aggressive one, not the other way around. Aggressive buying is precisely and literally about attacking the market. In business a hostile takeover is an act of aggression against a company that is unwilling to be bought or resistant to the merger - it is an attack.

Attack and Defence in sport is not a metaphor, it is literal. When one side attacks the other defends - that is precisely what it means. How can this be a metaphor? If a player has an aggressive serve it means he has an attacking serve, this again is not a metaphor. 



I think the confusion here is over whether aggressive implies a confrontational attitude or simply a competitive or driving approach.  The answer is it can mean both depending on the context.  And I think what Hackettfan means when he says attack in sport is a metaphor is that you do not literally attack, as in physically assault, the opponent.  You tactically force yourself on him within the rules of that sport.  So in boxing, attacking does come very close or in fact amounts to an actual physical assault whereas in tennis it would simply mean trying to take the net away and finish the point and in cricket, using the front foot and driving rather than blocking the ball.  In chess, it would mean forcing a move from the opponent that would involve loss of coins for either side.  In all of the last three contexts, there is no actual assault, it's only attacking within the limited context of the game. But since attacking, unlike aggressive, is not used in a behavioural context at all (where aggressive is contrasted in a negative light with assertive), I prefer the former in a sporting context.


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 18 2014 at 01:27
^ Perhaps there has been contamination from other languages where the distinction is more definite, such as Spanish. In Spanish we have:
Agresion (noun)
Agresividad (noun)
Agresivo (adjective)
(Agredir is the verb but I don't think it's relevant for this)

So we have two nouns linked to the same adjective and verb, and in Spanish the distinction between the two is clear. 

Agresion is a fact, it is the fact of acting against someone or something, or of breaking the rules or the generally accepted correct behaviour.

Agresividad is taking risks, it is showing no fear, it is putting your opponents against the wall, stressing them. It is taking the lead, in a way the opposite of being prudent or conservative. It is an attitude, not a definite act. Depending on the situation such an attitude could result in harm to others but not necessarily. A racing driver may drive with "agresividad" and that means that he is increasing the risks of anything nasty happening, but it does not mean that he has actually caused anything nasty yet. He may drive with "agresividad" and the race ends happily without anything bad having happened.
But the term may also be used for a tennis player who constantly pushes his opponent to the limits, or someone who gambles taking risks and causing his opponents to take risks higher than they would normally do etc, and in these situations if it goes wrong it will not result in any harm to the opponent, only to himself.
 
Agresion implies that something nasty or at least considered incorrect has actually happened, it is not merely taking risks but actually having caused something undesirable.


Because of this distinction in my mother language I tend to equate "aggressiveness" more with "agresividad" and "aggression" with "agresion" even if that's probably not the actual proper use in English.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 18 2014 at 04:55
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


I think the confusion here is over whether aggressive implies a confrontational attitude or simply a competitive or driving approach.  The answer is it can mean both depending on the context.  And I think what Hackettfan means when he says attack in sport is a metaphor is that you do not literally attack, as in physically assault, the opponent.  You tactically force yourself on him within the rules of that sport.  So in boxing, attacking does come very close or in fact amounts to an actual physical assault whereas in tennis it would simply mean trying to take the net away and finish the point and in cricket, using the front foot and driving rather than blocking the ball.  In chess, it would mean forcing a move from the opponent that would involve loss of coins for either side.  In all of the last three contexts, there is no actual assault, it's only attacking within the limited context of the game. But since attacking, unlike aggressive, is not used in a behavioural context at all (where aggressive is contrasted in a negative light with assertive), I prefer the former in a sporting context.
I see what you are saying but I don't see that 'attacking' (and thus 'aggressive') is figurative (or 'metaphoric') in these contexts just because it isn't a physical attack. When you fall in love the 'fall' is figurative, but when you attack an opponent in a sporting game the 'attack' is not figurative, the meaning does not magically switch from literal to figurative when the action does not involve physical contact, it remains the same. Attacks in war-games and military exercises do not become metaphorical just because non-live ammunition is used. Historically all 'sports' were a non-lethal form of military training and every game has an opponent even when competing against yourself. All the terms and synonyms we have used [in these posts] in those non-physical contexts to describe aggressiveness are related to literal attack: confrontation, offence, force, opposition, [to which we can add assault, assail, pounce, strike, storm, grapple, etc.] ... As Todd said, 'getting in someone's face' is related to that and so is 'advance' and 'push forward', their meaning in these contexts comes from the act of attacking in a literal sense.


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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 18 2014 at 04:59
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

^ Perhaps there has been contamination from other languages where the distinction is more definite, such as Spanish. In Spanish we have:
Agresion (noun)
Agresividad (noun)
Agresivo (adjective)
(Agredir is the verb but I don't think it's relevant for this)

So we have two nouns linked to the same adjective and verb, and in Spanish the distinction between the two is clear. 

Agresion is a fact, it is the fact of acting against someone or something, or of breaking the rules or the generally accepted correct behaviour.

Agresividad is taking risks, it is showing no fear, it is putting your opponents against the wall, stressing them. It is taking the lead, in a way the opposite of being prudent or conservative. It is an attitude, not a definite act. Depending on the situation such an attitude could result in harm to others but not necessarily. A racing driver may drive with "agresividad" and that means that he is increasing the risks of anything nasty happening, but it does not mean that he has actually caused anything nasty yet. He may drive with "agresividad" and the race ends happily without anything bad having happened.
But the term may also be used for a tennis player who constantly pushes his opponent to the limits, or someone who gambles taking risks and causing his opponents to take risks higher than they would normally do etc, and in these situations if it goes wrong it will not result in any harm to the opponent, only to himself.
 
Agresion implies that something nasty or at least considered incorrect has actually happened, it is not merely taking risks but actually having caused something undesirable.


Because of this distinction in my mother language I tend to equate "aggressiveness" more with "agresividad" and "aggression" with "agresion" even if that's probably not the actual proper use in English.
That's interesting Gerard. I looked up  http://www.wordreference.com/definicion/agresividad" rel="nofollow - Agresividad in Spanish on WordReference.com  - it gives two definitions...
  1. Tendencia a atacar o actuar con provocación y violencia: el estrés conlleva mucha agresividad.
  2. Fuerza, dinamismo o decisión para emprender algo y afrontar sus dificultades: se hizo hincapié en la agresividad de estos jóvenes empresarios.
     Este significado constituye un anglicismo.
(sorry I've used Google Translate, I don't read or speak Spanish):
  1. Tendency to attack or act provocatively and violence: stress leads to aggressiveness
  2. Strength, dynamism or decision to undertake something and confront their difficulties: emphasis was placed on the aggressiveness of these young entrepreneurs.
    ♦ This is an Anglicised meaning. 
(Note: It gives a similar Anglicised second meaning for Agresivo)

That's not exactly the kind of Anglicising of a Spanish word I was asking about earlier but it is interesting that the modern Spanish meaning has been altered by the usage of the [transliterated] comparable word in America.


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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 18 2014 at 05:44
^ I didn't know that the Spanish 2nd meaning of "agresividad" was actually an Anglicised meaning coming from American English and I had thought that perhaps it had been the other way around.
In any case, seeing the differentiation of the two meanings, I do not see anything inherently wrong with using two different words. Perhaps strictly speaking, "aggression" would be more correct in English no matter what are we actually meaning, but if the use of "aggressiveness" in certain situations can help in making a distinction, clarifying that we do not mean any factual aggression or attack, but more the Spanish interpretation of "agresividad" (being bold, challenging, ready to take risks etc) I don't see it so bad.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 18 2014 at 05:57
^ it is more to do with how the word sounds to English ears (and from what Roger has said, Indian ears) than any difference in meaning. We can (and do) appreciate the difference in meaning (and Aggression has the same two related meanings), but prefer to use the verb 'aggressive' with an appropriate noun as an descriptive noun-phrase than use this verbal noun.



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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 18 2014 at 16:38
I've read this tweet by Jason Fields of Reuters Top News:
Quote Bad week for weapons: U.S. spending millions to blow up captured U.S. materiel in Iraq; MRAPs in #Ferguson: http://reut.rs/1oV8cuf
... and, well, what do you know: " http://www.google.com/search?q=materiel+definition&oq=materiel+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1476j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - materiel " is an actual word. I didn't know that. There must be tons of words to learn from professional journalists.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 18 2014 at 20:17
Now that zachfive mentioned Roger Goodell on the "... American football" thread, I've skimmed through the guy's Wiki page and found a phrase in use: fait accompli. Clicked on it, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_phrases_used_by_English_speakers#F" rel="nofollow - this is what I've seen .

Anyone around here in the habit of using foreign phrases in their English writing or speech?


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 18 2014 at 22:46
" http://www.google.com/search?q=homophonic+definition&oq=homophonic+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1299j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - Homophonic " vs. " http://www.google.com/search?q=define+homophonous&oq=define+homophonous&aqs=chrome..69i64j0.1150j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - homophonous ".


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 01:24
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Now that zachfive mentioned Roger Goodell on the "... American football" thread, I've skimmed through the guy's Wiki page and found a phrase in use: fait accompli. Clicked on it, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_phrases_used_by_English_speakers#F" rel="nofollow - this is what I've seen .

Anyone around here in the habit of using foreign phrases in their English writing or speech?
Let's wait for the reply of our British friends but I guess that using French expressions is probably more common in the UK than in the US. For me living in the Flemish part of Belgium it's probably even more common since Flemish frequently mix French expressions in their Dutch, and many such expressions may then get carried into their way of speaking English. But I routinely communicate in English with Europeans from other countries and I see that many do use such French expressions as well, or at least they understand them and are not surprised by their use.
Many from the list you posted are relatively common, some of the most used:
a la carte
amateur
aperitif or apero
cafe (for meaning not the drink but the place)
carte blanche
femme fatale
force majeure
liaison
motif
papier-mache
pret-a-porter
raison d'etre
tete-a-tete

"Ciao" and "A rivederci" are Italian expressions also common here in Europe among non-Italians.



Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 02:43
There are a few more I can think of: coup de grace, volte face, tour de force. They are used more in written communication than in conversation.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 03:01
My point is that there are some un-common foreign phrases and terms that are seldom used by people in writing. Just thought I'd bring up some of them as well.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 03:16
A few anecdotes...

Back in the 70s during our first trip to Amsterdam my kid sister said 'dank u' (a Dutch phrase we picked up with remarkable ease) to a waiter as he served her meal, he replied with a perfunctory 'alsjeblieft' to which she responded with "bless you". Confused by this uncharacteristic response from my sister I asked why she'd blessed him, with a straight face she said "because he sneezed"...

I was on a training course in Munich many years ago that was run in English. Most of the students were German together with an Austrian, three Englishmen, a Scot, a Frenchman and one Italian. During one of the lunch breaks as the meal was served the Bavarian waiter said 'Bon appétit' much to the amusement of the French guy who responded with 'Merci beaucoup'. This sparked a discussion about the various "foreign" words and phrases that were common between our six countries and the general conclusion was that loaned French and Italian words were predominately about food and drink while English words were mostly about technology (it was a technology course for engineers so that was an inevitable conclusion). Much to the consternation of the Germans, the only German phrases we could think of were 'Zeitgeist' and 'Donner und Blitzen'. Sometime later when we were back in the classroom I sneezed, without thinking Roger (the Scot) said 'gesundheit' and I acknowledged with 'danke schön' ... and all the Germans cheered and applauded.

For many years I was puzzled by the use of 'C'est la guerre' in English as I was hearing it as 'C'est la garre', which means "this is the station" and not "this is war".


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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 10:27
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

A few anecdotes...

Back in the 70s during our first trip to Amsterdam my kid sister said 'dank u' (a Dutch phrase we picked up with remarkable ease) to a waiter as he served her meal, he replied with a perfunctory 'alsjeblieft' to which she responded with "bless you". Confused by this uncharacteristic response from my sister I asked why she'd blessed him, with a straight face she said "because he sneezed"...

LOL

Once in Japan for work we were having dinner among colleagues, all of us European, and our drink during the whole meal was beer (as is usually the case in Japan) and we had had quite a few each of us... When we were done, I ordered "the bill please" in English, as I barely know a couple of words in Japanese. As you know Japanese people have some trouble discerning the sounds of "r" and "l" (if they should talk about Roger Taylor they will pronounce something like Logel Taylol was a gleat drummel). To our surprise the guy came back with one more beer for each of us, he had understood "beer please!" (we did not refuse it LOL)



Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 10:38
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 On the song Certifiable #1 Smash, Kevin Gilbert pronounces multicultural the way English/Indian speakers would so perhaps the styling mult-I wasn't born yet.  But it's always sem-I final now. 
The one aspect of the English language that I like the most is it is a living language - it evolves and adapts and is forever changing, words like "bad" now mean "good" just as "awful" originally meant "worthy of respect" (literally "full of awe"). Unlike many other languages it is not resistant to change and readily adopts new words and subtle changes in meaning; the English language has such a vast vocabulary because of this and not just from the melding of the Northern European Germanic/Anglo-Saxon with the Romance languages of Southern Europe. 

American English (as odd as it may seem) does not evolve as quickly or as often as British English. This seems counter-intuitive because much play is made of the Americanisation of British English, for all its adaptability and willingness to change nothing raises the hackles of an Englishman more that to hear his native tongue suffer the vandalism of Americanisation, to see colour spelt without a 'u' (or color spelled without a 'u') for example. Yet since the creation of the American nation 400 years ago the two dialects have diverged and it has been British English that has changed more, for example the "u" in colour and favour is an addition into English spelling since Elizabethan times, the lack of  the 'u" in Americanised spelling is not an omission. Neither forms of English would be recognisable to an Elizabethan.

The same is true of pronunciation - words like schedule and controversy have changed in Britain since the 1600s whereas in America they have remained unchanged. Whether "sch" should be pronounced "shh" or "sk" was should ideally be determined by the pronunciation of the root word in the language it was derived from ..."shh" for Germanic words and "sk" for Latin words. But English doesn't do that - the Germanic 'school' is pronounced 'skool' on both sides of the Atlantic whereas the Germanic pronunciation should be 'shhool' (like the German 'schule'). Since schedule has a Latin etymology then "skedule" is the 'correct' pronunciation, it is British English that has given it a Germanic pronunciation. Unfortunately though, that cannot be viewed as a generalisation since 'schism' is usually given a Latin "skism" pronunciation in both dialects but some American's give it the softer "shhism". 

It could be that sem-eye could be an older pronunciation than sem-ee, but in this case I doubt it since every other Romance language seems to pronounce it sem-ee

Like "aggressiveness" makes an unnecessary noun from an adjective that was already derived from a noun, the Americanisation of English that is guaranteed to wind-up a Brit and the one we are most resistant to is the creation of unnecessary verbs from nouns (incentivise) or using nouns as verbs (impact). Applying a rule that converts a noun to a verb for every noun just seems superfluous and nouns as verbs just sounds lazy.

Of course, none of this explains (or excuses) missing the "i" in Aluminium or the "l" in Solder.



One of my favorites is "oriented / orientated" (US/UK)


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 10:45
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

A few anecdotes...

Back in the 70s during our first trip to Amsterdam my kid sister said 'dank u' (a Dutch phrase we picked up with remarkable ease) to a waiter as he served her meal, he replied with a perfunctory 'alsjeblieft' to which she responded with "bless you". Confused by this uncharacteristic response from my sister I asked why she'd blessed him, with a straight face she said "because he sneezed"...

LOL

Once in Japan for work we were having dinner among colleagues, all of us European, and our drink during the whole meal was beer (as is usually the case in Japan) and we had had quite a few each of us... When we were done, I ordered "the bill please" in English, as I barely know a couple of words in Japanese. As you know Japanese people have some trouble discerning the sounds of "r" and "l" (if they should talk about Roger Taylor they will pronounce something like Logel Taylol was a gleat drummel). To our surprise the guy came back with one more beer for each of us, he had understood "beer please!" (we did not refuse it LOL)

Nice... LOL

I have a similar story.  When I was a kid, my family visited another family who was from Finland.  The father of that family was a visiting professor at the university where my father taught, and they had been in the country only a short while.   Most of the family spoke very little English.   We were served dinner, and when the mother came around to take our plates at the end of the meal, she made a gesture asking if it was okay to take my plate.   I politely said, "yes thanks, I'm finished."  She looked puzzled and paused a moment.  I repeated what I said, and then realized the confusion.  "Done.  I'm done, I mean."


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My other avatar is a Porsche

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.

-Kehlog Albran


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 11:23
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:



One of my favorites is "oriented / orientated" (US/UK)
'tis a good one and another that shows how British English evolves faster than American English. 

It's also an example of a noun used as a verb that the Brits tend to avoid. Orient was originally a noun meaning "East", as a verb it meant to align with the points of a compass, namely 'East', from this we get the noun Orientation. Orientate is a back-formation from this new noun, and since we like to avoid nouns and verbs we made a new verb Orientate to replace Orient, allowing us to keep the original "East" meaning.

It means we can say Orient Express with out thinking it means Alignment Express Wink 


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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 11:54
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
It means we can say Orient Express with out thinking it means Alignment Express Wink 
You write 'with out' as two separate words which feels awkward to me (?)

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
For many years I was puzzled by the use of 'C'est la guerre' in English as I was hearing it as 'C'est la garre', which means "this is the station" and not "this is war".
Sorry to be nit picky but since we are in a letters thread, 'C'est la gare' would be written with only one 'r'.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 12:18
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
It means we can say Orient Express with out thinking it means Alignment Express Wink 
You write 'with out' as two separate words which feels awkward to me (?)
That was a typo - It is awkward, and wrong. Embarrassed
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
For many years I was puzzled by the use of 'C'est la guerre' in English as I was hearing it as 'C'est la garre', which means "this is the station" and not "this is war".
Sorry to be nit picky but since we are in a letters thread, 'C'est la gare' would be written with only one 'r'.
That's another typo. Embarrassed

Unfortunately I'm dyslexic, which is why I make so many errors, (all of my "edits' are to correct spelling errors). On the up-side it is also why I have a fascination with words and grammar. Big smile


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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 12:42
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

 

I have a similar story.  When I was a kid, my family visited another family who was from Finland.  The father of that family was a visiting professor at the university where my father taught, and they had been in the country only a short while.   Most of the family spoke very little English.   We were served dinner, and when the mother came around to take our plates at the end of the meal, she made a gesture asking if it was okay to take my plate.   I politely said, "yes thanks, I'm finished."  She looked puzzled and paused a moment.  I repeated what I said, and then realized the confusion.  "Done.  I'm done, I mean."
LOL Nice one too. I can imagine similar possible situations with, for example, if regarding some work you would say 'Polish please' in a suitable environment with Polish people around.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 13:36
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

One of my favorites is "oriented / orientated" (US/UK)
That reminds me (and this is not a US/UK thing): " http://www.google.com/search?q=opinionated+definition&oq=opinionated+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.946j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - opinionated " vs. " http://www.google.com/search?q=opinionized+definition&oq=opinionized+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j69i60l3j69i65j69i59.994j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - opinionized ".


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 19:05
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

One of my favorites is "oriented / orientated" (US/UK)
That reminds me (and this is not a US/UK thing): " http://www.google.com/search?q=opinionated+definition&oq=opinionated+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.946j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - opinionated " vs. " http://www.google.com/search?q=opinionized+definition&oq=opinionized+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j69i60l3j69i65j69i59.994j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - opinionized ".
Well, they are two different words with two slightly different meanings, and one is an adjective while the other is a verb so I'm not sure of the point you are making. 
 
However, I suspect there is a US/GB thing going on here because "opinionized" isn't a real real word even though it does appear in some dictionaries. (The test of any word that ends "-ized" is to search for a British spelling of the same word, ie "opinionised").


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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 19:18
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

One of my favorites is "oriented / orientated" (US/UK)
That reminds me (and this is not a US/UK thing): " http://www.google.com/search?q=opinionated+definition&oq=opinionated+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.946j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - opinionated " vs. " http://www.google.com/search?q=opinionized+definition&oq=opinionized+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j69i60l3j69i65j69i59.994j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - opinionized ".
Well, they are two different words with two slightly different meanings, and one is an adjective while the other is a verb so I'm not sure of the point you are making. 
 
However, I suspect there is a US/GB thing going on here because "opinionized" isn't a real real word even though it does appear in some dictionaries. (The test of any word that ends "-ized" is to search for a British spelling of the same word, ie "opinionised").
My point is that I've heard some people use these two words interchangeably, ... which is confusing. The former means "assertive and dogmatic", while the latter (in its adjective form) means ... ??? Could it be used for the person speaking, the thing that is spoken, or the person/thing spoken about? (Some might call this belaboring; I call it curiosity.)


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 21:35
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

One of my favorites is "oriented / orientated" (US/UK)
That reminds me (and this is not a US/UK thing): " http://www.google.com/search?q=opinionated+definition&oq=opinionated+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.946j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - opinionated " vs. " http://www.google.com/search?q=opinionized+definition&oq=opinionized+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j69i60l3j69i65j69i59.994j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - opinionized ".
Well, they are two different words with two slightly different meanings, and one is an adjective while the other is a verb so I'm not sure of the point you are making. 
 
However, I suspect there is a US/GB thing going on here because "opinionized" isn't a real real word even though it does appear in some dictionaries. (The test of any word that ends "-ized" is to search for a British spelling of the same word, ie "opinionised").
My point is that I've heard some people use these two words interchangeably, ... which is confusing. The former means "assertive and dogmatic", while the latter (in its adjective form) means ... ??? Could it be used for the person speaking, the thing that is spoken, or the person/thing spoken about? (Some might call this belaboring; I call it curiosity.)
Since as a verb opinionize apparently means to "to express an opinion" if it had an adjective form it would refer to the subject (or topic) of the opinion, not the person having the opinion. Unlike opinionated, which refers to the person and not the subject (the verb opinionate meant "hold the opinion")

But as I said, opinionize is not a real real word and opinionated would be the past tense not the adjective. Searching the internet for examples used in a sentence yields very poor results, even Goolge suggests searching for opinionated instead.

If opinionize is a real real word it would not mean "to express an opinion" it would mean "to cause to become like an opinion" - which is nonsensical. As an example Americanize means "to make [like] American in form, style or culture".


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What?


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 21 2014 at 13:34
http://www.google.com/search?q=falsifiable+definition&oq=falsifiable+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1274j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - Falsifiability . That's interesting:
Quote That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, it means that if the statement were false, then its falsehood could be demonstrated.
Where is this usually applied? And what would be an example of indemonstrable fallacy (besides God's existence)?


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 21 2014 at 21:51
Is there going to be a test Monday because I need to start taking notes.
 
 
Wink


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 21 2014 at 21:58

One more for today:  http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=bailiff%20definition" rel="nofollow - bailiff . Also with that US-vs.-UK difference between two meanings. Never heard anyone use it before.


Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: August 21 2014 at 22:45
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


One more for today:  http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=bailiff%20definition" rel="nofollow - bailiff . Also with that US-vs.-UK difference between two meanings. Never heard anyone use it before.

The English speak real English Tongue


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“War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.”

― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four



"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart





Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 22 2014 at 02:22
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

http://www.google.com/search?q=falsifiable+definition&oq=falsifiable+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1274j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - Falsifiability . That's interesting
Quote That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, it means that if the statement were false, then its falsehood could be demonstrated.
Where is this usually applied? And what would be an example of indemonstrable fallacy (besides God's existence)?
You will find 'Falsifiability' a lot if you read about science and particularly about philosophy of science, it was the criterion demanded by Karl Popper in order for a scientific theory to be considered as truly scientific. The claim that intelligent aliens have visited the Earth during mankind's times is not falsifiable, the fact that no uncontroversial proof has been found or will ever be found of aliens having visited us will probably not be sufficient to convince the aliens-visited-us believers that they are wrong.


In my article about instruments in the Blogs section I used a word which I don't know if it's really used more or less often by British and Americans, but I used it because in my native Spanish is relatively common: 'paraphernalia'. How common is it for English language natives?



Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 22 2014 at 02:37
^ In the States "paraphernalia" is frequently used as a name for "the means of hard drug consumption" ( http://www.google.com/search?q=paraphernalia+definition&oq=paraphernalia+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.905j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - though it is applicable for much broader use, of course ). I don't remember it being used in any other context, honestly.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 22 2014 at 04:53
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

  http://www.google.com/search?q=falsifiable+definition&oq=falsifiable+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.1274j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - Falsifiability . That's interesting
Quote That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, it means that if the statement were false, then its falsehood could be demonstrated.
Where is this usually applied? And what would be an example of indemonstrable fallacy (besides God's existence)?
You will find 'Falsifiability' a lot if you read about science and particularly about philosophy of science, it was the criterion demanded by Karl Popper in order for a scientific theory to be considered as truly scientific. The claim that intelligent aliens have visited the Earth during mankind's times is not falsifiable, the fact that no uncontroversial proof has been found or will ever be found of aliens having visited us will probably not be sufficient to convince the aliens-visited-us believers that they are wrong.
I think it is only really used in the assessment of hypothesises. It comes from the notion that we can never categorically prove anything in science but one single experiment or (explained) observation can disprove something.

For example the statement "pure water boils at 100°C" is falsifiable and can be proved false because we can take a kettle to the top of a mountain and demonstrate that it will boil at a lower temperature. Knowing that the statement has been demonstrated to be false we can modify it to say "pure water boils at 100°C when it is under an atmospheric pressure of one bar" however it remains falsifiable because it is testable. Testability is an indicator of falsifiability but untestability is not always an indicator of unfalsifiability  something can be untestable but still be falsifiable.

All too often the idea that a falsifiable hypothesis can be disproved is taken as proof of an opposing unfalsifiable hypothesis, we see this a lot in pseudo-scientific and belief-based hypothesis where more effort is put into proving all opposing ideas to be wrong than proving that the idea itself is correct. This is fallacy - for example disproof of evolution does not prove creationism. (Sorry about that - it's is difficult to think of examples of indemonstrable fallacy that does not involve a belief)



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What?


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 22 2014 at 05:13
^ indeed, many people view scientists as people who believe the established theories to be correct and just seeking further small refinements. On the contrary, a lot of scientific effort is put in trying to find and then executing experiments which could disprove the existing theories, and there is nothing which makes a scientist happier than getting an experimental result contradicting an established theory.

It is worth clarifying that falsifiability often relates more to the way an hypothesis must be properly stated rather than with the actual idea behind. The sentence 'intelligent aliens have visited the Earth during the epoch where cognitive humans were already inhabiting the Earth' is not falsifiable because we can never prove it wrong. Never finding any proof that they have visited will never prove that they did not visited us. However the statement ''intelligent aliens have NOT visited the Earth during the epoch where cognitive humans were already inhabiting the Earth' is falsifiable. Finding uncontroversial evidence of their visit would falsify it. 


Posted By: PrognosticMind
Date Posted: August 22 2014 at 05:17
I've only just started catching up on this thread, but "Falsifiable" is a great one to ponder over Tongue.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 22 2014 at 05:21
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

In my article about instruments in the Blogs section I used a word which I don't know if it's really used more or less often by British and Americans, but I used it because in my native Spanish is relatively common: 'paraphernalia'. How common is it for English language natives?

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ In the States "paraphernalia" is frequently used as a name for "the means of hard drug consumption" ( http://www.google.com/search?q=paraphernalia+definition&oq=paraphernalia+definition&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.905j0j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - though it is applicable for much broader use, of course ). I don't remember it being used in any other context, honestly.
As your link explains, Paraphernalia originally meant "property owned by a married woman" and referred to things like cosmetics, toiletries and other such female thing that men knew nothing about. (I am assuming you are clicking on the "big grey down arrow" on all these Google definitions you are showing us). Since then it has come to mean any  http://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=esoteric+definition" rel="nofollow - esoteric  equipment associated with a specific activity, of which equipment for the consumption of hard drugs is only one such contextual use of the word.

It is a commonly word and can be used in a more abstract sense.to denote the accompaniments to ritual and ceremony and in that context would be associated with rigmarole. 


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What?


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 24 2014 at 01:07
Never heard the album X, ... and I've never heard of Georg Trakl (that could call for a "People You Might Be Interested In" thread), ... which brought me to his Wiki page, ... where a word is used that I bookmarked about a month ago: http://www.google.com/search?q=feuilleton&oq=feuilleton&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.983j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - feuilleton .


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 24 2014 at 01:29
Discover a word, and you might discover more than one idea. Never heard of the  http://https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romansh_language" rel="nofollow - Romansh  language. Apparently, they speak it in Graubünden, Switzerland, and it is a derivative of the Vulgar Latin.


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 24 2014 at 02:20
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Never heard the album X, ... and I've never heard of Georg Trakl (that could call for a "People You Might Be Interested In" thread), ... which brought me to his Wiki page, ... where a word is used that I bookmarked about a month ago: http://www.google.com/search?q=feuilleton&oq=feuilleton&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.983j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - feuilleton .
This is another one which by proximity to France is relatively commonly used in Catalonia (not so sure about other areas of Spain), with the meaning of 'soap opera'.



Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: August 26 2014 at 04:08
"Apposition". I'm reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumb#Opposition_and_apposition" rel="nofollow - this section on the Wiki page and thinking: "What is the most used meaning of the word when it comes to the thumb?" (Sorry if this question sounds awkwardly phrased to you.)


This is hard to read for how wordy and technical it is:
Quote Other researchers use another definition, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumb#cite_note-vanNierop-2008-4" rel="nofollow - [4]  referring to opposition-apposition as the transition between flexion-abduction and extension-adduction; the side of the distal thumb phalanx thus approximated to the palm or the hand's radial side (side of index finger) during apposition and the pulp or "palmar" side of the distal thumb phalanx approximated to either the palm or other digits during opposition.


Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: August 26 2014 at 04:57
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Never heard the album X, ... and I've never heard of Georg Trakl (that could call for a "People You Might Be Interested In" thread), ... which brought me to his Wiki page, ... where a word is used that I bookmarked about a month ago: http://www.google.com/search?q=feuilleton&oq=feuilleton&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.983j1j9&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow - feuilleton .
This is another one which by proximity to France is relatively commonly used in Catalonia (not so sure about other areas of Spain), with the meaning of 'soap opera'.

I only knew the 'soap opera' meaning of the word.



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