Ultravox and beyond
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=99516
Printed Date: April 29 2024 at 11:38
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Ultravox and beyond
Posted By: tszirmay
Subject: Ultravox and beyond
Date Posted: August 31 2014 at 16:00
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As a long-time member of PA and a prog career that spans the
entire style historically, I most humbly request the blessing from you, all of
you, to express an issue I have had since day one of PA. The target of my disappointment and now, the
resolve to remedy the situation is the omission of a style of New Wave artists who
fully deserve at the very least consideration such as Depeche Mode, Magazine, Bauhaus
and Peter Murphy, New Muzik, Simple Minds as well as my ultimate ‘cause celebre’,
Ultravox! This band was, is and continues to be influential with a
slew of albums as well as John Foxx solo discography that is still light years
forward, memorable futurist songs like “Metal Beat”, “Dislocation”, “Maximum
Acceleration”, “Mr. X” and “Vienna” were
warp speed away from the current trendy sounds, prog or otherwise. Truly great
music with serious progressive, gothic and punk leanings galore. John Foxx is an outright genius and his
replacement Midge Ure is no slouch, finally releasing a 2014 album that just
might swing the balance in favor of possible inclusion. It would be an
honorable and entirely correct interpretation of what is progressive, the
grandiose melodies alone bathe in dense classicism. Lots of class and mood, is
found on “Fragile”, the title chosen to stamp “prog” on the thingy, so let’s
give it a Yes album designation! Wink wink, nod nod. My bone to pick is that if we included Journey, Talking
Heads, Japan, 10cc, Swans and as poppy a Yes album as the despicable “Open your
Eyes”, then why not consider Ultravox, John Foxx and Midge Ure? Fine, it’s
synth-pop /electronica but on “Fragile” especially, the sweeping melodies are
just beyond belief, probably 2014’s best album and a definite classic for
eternity. I am still waiting for my copy but I did listen to all the
tunes and it’s a spotless set of thunderous songs, full of depth, glimmering technique
and crisp production. Give it all a listen, stay away from all the pop hits and
address the true core of their respective careers and give an opinion.
Prog-related at the very least, IMHO. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Replies:
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: August 31 2014 at 16:20
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It's not my kind of music, but various others here aren't either, so I don't see why not. I don't think anyopne can deny that the music was progressive in the sense that it hadn't been done before, but then again neither had Disco, for instance. My main gripe would be that it was all very slick and streamlined, and I somehow can't help perceiving it as Yuppie music and catering for the masses, whereas other styles seemed to do their personal thing without special regard for acceptance. The only album in this style I own is Ultravox's Vienna, and I find it pleasant listening but not much more. Do you have any particular recommendations that would show me that it's not all played in 4/4? I'd be quite interested. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: August 31 2014 at 16:36
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Not sure I'd call them a prog band, prog-related maybe. Midge Ure's new album was reviewed in the last issue of Prog magazine.
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: August 31 2014 at 17:23
Systems of Romance was Ultravox's second album, with John Foxx on vocals , I would definitely consider some of the songs I mentioned in my post but the entire album has a special 'cold' feel . Remember , this was 1978, totally ahead of its time ! Otherwise John Foxx had some thrilling electronic music on Metamatic (1980) and the Garden (1981). Need I mention those were prog's bleak years!  I get it , there were a lot of commercial tunes during the Midge Ure -era like "Dancing With Tears in my Eyes" and "Passing Strangers" but also stellar pieces like "The Thin Wall", "Rage in Eden" "The Voice" , "Dream On" and "All Fall Down" but perhaps the best is the current "Fragile" , all available on youtube. Seeing Ultravox live as well as Midge Ure , you would undoubtedly appreciate the less-streamlined approach.
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
npjnpj wrote:Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 31 2014 at 20:13
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Big fan of John Foxx and Ultravox! (John Foxx era), less of a fan of Ultravox with Midge Ure and even less for Midge Ure solo [Wastelands was the best thing he ever recorded but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heQI00Vlea8" rel="nofollow - Modern Man did the original much better], my initial enthusiasm for anything involving Midge Ure quickly faded, it just lacked the substance and depth required for repeated listening. He has a great voice, but that's not enough. The major hurdle for including Ultravox! and all the other new-wave artists mentioned in the OP is that they are not Progressive Rock. While some of it has obvious Art Rock, Electronica and Krautrock influence there is the overriding fact that it is the antithesis of Prog in every (musical) respect: the tunes and melodies are not complex and feature no progression or development within a song; song structures and arrangements are box-standard; the instrumental layering is rarely anything more than two-dimensional with no polyphony or counter-point; the rhythms are simple with zero polymeter or polyrhythm; the time sigs are generally common time with no complex or irrational meters; and there are no instrumental excesses or intricate solos. Of course not all Prog Rock contains every element I've listed there, but some of it is present in all Prog since that is what defines it as Prog and remove all of them and what remains is just Pop. Intelligent Pop, but Pop never-the-less. It would be wrong to include any of these bands on the grounds that prominent Prog bands also made Pop albums. [edit] We evaluated Ultravox! (John Foxx era) and Ultravox (Midge Ure era) for Crossover and [/edit] John Foxx's solo career since leaving Ultravox is to my tastes far more interesting (yes he is a genius and in my mind surpasses Brian Eno for creativity and musicianship) but even when he produced superb Ambient albums they are not Electronic Progressive ambient albums - somewhat ironically they are not heavily synthesised electronic (for example Translucence with Harold Budd is predominantly an acoustic album). The music he has created since 1997 is nothing like the New Wave we are discussing here.
------------- What? |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: August 31 2014 at 20:46
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Fine. Prog-related NO Ok. Thank you.
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: August 31 2014 at 22:19
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I could talk myself into it if I plucked those airy synth, electric violin moments from those early Island albums - the only ones I've ever heard from the band....remember those crazy drums (had never heard electric drums until Ha! Ha! Ha!)....Cro-magnon Simple Minds, Japan, even the later beauty that Talk Talk created. But, just spin Fear in the Western World for PA members, then let them decide. ------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: August 31 2014 at 23:40
Dear Dean, your highly enlightening (and very standard) comment about progressive rock's parameters are not at all agreeing with my own definition. I consider progressive in simpler terms , something beyond the three minute Ramones-like guitar, bass and drum, verse chorus entity. Progressive rock, pour moi, evolved (I stress the word EVOLVE) from the infusion of keyboard elements namely electrified ivories and particularly the synthesizer , which made rock progress into more complex arrangements. Adding various "modern" sounds helped charting a new course for basic rock and roll. You find it boxed and musically linear ? Fine. On Fragile, Ure's latest, the instrumentation is very detailed, technical and definitely with symphonic tendencies. Doesn't really matter to me whether Ultravox gets approved by the system or not. I just find quick-wristed /slice and dice/ lack of open-mindedness (aka pigeon-holing ) the very antithesis of prog and its Achilles heel , frankly. I also have a problem with the words 'resolutely rejecting' , sounds too heavy handed for a obviously intellectually advanced commentator , ex-administrator and current layabout
 . ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 00:28
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I agree 100% with the Team who voted *NO* for Ultravox.
edit: this thread would be moved by the forum moderator to General Music Discussions, where this thread belongs. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 00:41
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Dean sums it up perfectly. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 01:16
Mmm, I say, old bean, somewhat too salty , no ? ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 01:19
Actually, druze, the thread does not belong at all on PA. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 01:48
Of course this thread belongs to PA, why not, but in GENERAL MUSIC DISCUSSIONS sub-forum and you know it, comrade.. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:29
I know nothing , in fact nothing at all! But I was hoping for some possible appeal decision to add Ultravox in prog-related which is why i posted here but it was 'resolutely rejected' by the PA politburo. Maybe a conversation ..... but its NO , and NO means NO. Jebi me, as they say!
 ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:37
Sorry - resolute was the wrong word, I meant resoundingly (it was 2 a.m.)
------------- What? |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:45
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Attaque, parade, riposte , contre-attaque, parade....Touche! Rejection is to the rejectee, both resounding and resolute. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:57
Well, no. It was the wrong word used incorrectly. Resolute implies we were determined to reject them come what may and nothing could be further from the truth. A search of the forum will show that I have frequently 'championed' John Foxx and Ultravox! and tried to make a case for their inclusion but I couldn't even convince myself of their eligibility.
------------- What? |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 03:00
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Fair enough. I guess. That , ladies and gentlemen, was one opinion. Any dissenting voices ? BTW, how can one champion someone who is ineligible? Not good planning, wot?  ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 03:33
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^ no but it had balls -
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 03:40
Give PA another 10 years and maybe they will be revisited then. What's a decade anyway? Ultravox - borderline, f&%k yeah why not, but i would include bands like The Sound, The Cure before Ultravox, subjectively speaking ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 04:09
So in 15 years we should expect inclusion of Lene Lovich to PA too
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 04:40
You have outlined criteria by which I more-or-less determine whether a particular artist or album gets included into my record collection or not. I would not use the same criteria for music that is included into a database of Progressive Rock. I do not find this boxed or linear, and I would hope that the bands I have introduced, voted for and included here are a testament to that. I always worked on the principle of "best fit" rather than "exact fit" during evaluations and to do that I still needed to recognise demarcation lines between genres and subgenres regardless of how blurred and ill defined they may be. For me rejecting bands was never easy and we did/do consider every suggestion on the merits of the music alone, detached from any preconceptions or personal bias and strived to be as objective as possible. I have stated many times in the past that additions to the database are incremental: every addition changes the entry criteria by some subtle degree because artists do not work within the strict confines of any pigeon-holing imposed by record labels, critics and the listening public. You cannot extrapolate (or interpolate) a linear progression from one inclusion to the next, but several unrelated additions can lead to the possibility of suggesting and evaluating another artist that previously would not have been considered, this does not result in an automatic shoe-in even when applying a "best fit" philosophy - the music has to be evaluated against the subgenre as a whole and not a subset of it. Within the strict guidelines of Prog Related as specified on the PR page we could include considerably more artists that we currently do, but that would significantly alter the whole nature and emphasis of this site and what it is for.
It is and it isn't, we are a pigeon-holing fraternity, all music fans are even when they are determined not to be. That goes way beyond just sorting albums into "like" and "dislike" or the vagaries of an open or closed mind. Even the most open-minded and eclectic music-lover will categorise music by some form of organised sorting of styles, genres and loose associations.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 05:04
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As much as I dig Ultravox, I don't think they belong on PA. I think we have to draw the line somewhere. With time this site has become something of splitting hairs lounge, where we determine whether or not X music is prog/progressive. More than often, it's when we hear music, which were progressive for it's day as being prog that the quibbles start. Ultravox were never part of the prog rock scene though - just like Wire, Pere Ubu and Chrome, which all are acts I personally consider to have more of a "progressive" mindset than Ultravox......and as much as I adore those bands, they don't fit in on this site either - progressive or not. If all a band has to do is play rock and progressively (for it's day), then that would mean we would have to include Elvis, The Sex Pistols, Velvet Underground and Chuck Berry.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 11:51
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As many here have mentioned before the inclusion of various bands into various prog genres is very subjective and has a great deal to do with who the current decision makers are . Change those who vote or allow the whole board to vote en masse and you would get different inclusions of bands and perhaps some tossed out.
IMHO Ultravox, Simple Minds, Echo and the Bunnymen, etc are easily as 'proggy' as Japan or Talking Heads.
But once again....it's subjective based on who is doing the voting.
C'est la vie.
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 11:53
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Page 'new prog rock' releases http://newprogreleases.blogspot.ca/search: Midge Ure was the second singer for Ultravox, during their years of greatest success. 'Fragile' is Ure’s first album of new, original material in over a decade, and showing more progressive influences than his past work. 'Become' is the liveliest track and the one that sounds the most like Ultravox. The rest of the songs are generally more stately and atmospheric. To the extent that this is pop, it is very symphonic, grandiose, sophisticated pop. Lush synth sounds make up most of the sound palette, sometimes with the Ultravox grand piano sound, while there is occasional electric guitar (or a reasonable facsimile) of a slightly Frippian nature. There is some cinematic instrumental material, and most of this album is as deserving of being called contemporary prog as a whole lot of other stuff. ( http://kinesiscd.com/storeframe1.htm" rel="nofollow - kinesiscd.com ). At least, one voice for but I did stress over and over that Fragile (Familiar title?) is different. Would it change anything ? NO. Personally, I love rebellion and am perfectly content NOT towing the line. Balls or no balls.  ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 11:54
Here comes the cavalry ! My arguments entirely. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:02
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:02
I would like to know exactly how it's decided; is there a protocol using a certain point system or connections to musicians or what..? Is it simply up to the 'whim' of those making the call..? And how many are actually involved in the decision process? 3 or more or just one or two..?
 ps: not picking on any of the decision makers btw; just curious on the actual process and how many get to vote. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:09
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Well being part of the Crossover team, the way it works is that a candidate inclusion possibility is announced, with various accessibility to sights and sounds (generally a Bandcamp , FB or web-site ), as well as previous posts and the team members vote (Prog Freak site) . The artist can be added, rejected, moved, discussed or moved to prog-related . Voting by majority . Its a team thing , so it can passed around like a hot potato .....PA Teams are generally 3 or more members. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:19
3 members is not very many when the site has far more active members.
Why hasn't it been opened up to a vote by all current members who wish to vote, or at least those who have been members for say 6 months or a year..?
It seems a bit lopsided to just allow a handful to make the decisions .
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:26
Yes but at least they have balls !  Atavachron's stellar and world class comment earlier. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:31
Again why are only a handful allowed to make band inclusions and rejections when so many post here?
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:36
Some commentators have their own bodyguards and apologists . David was referring to Dean's balls . I presume they have met . ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:41
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It has been stated many times, including during the recent avatar fiasco , that PA is not a democracy. Never was and never will be. Its the owner's call how he wants to run his site and who is in charge of various rebukes and political leanings. Until his recent retirement, Dean was one of the main admins, ask him. He generally makes sense in his opinions, only occasionally fumbling the football, which he has inadvertently done 3 times in this post. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:41
I know we have gone off topic but it would be nice if the members of PA had some say in the band choices. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:49
Not really off topic. I posted a request for discussion on Ultravox and it was met with a wave a determined rebuttal. That is all. I believe that the reaction is fast and harsh. Even Dean admitted loving John Foxx (so why is he not included?) and early Ultravox with him singing was definitely progressive-leaning at the very least. Yeah, Ure-era Ultravox was perhaps more linear and ear-friendly (though stuffed with dreamier tracks) , which explains the reaction (and correctly so , may I add) but Fragile is special and definitely prog. The book-ends deserve attention not the fat underbelly. I agree with you that all members should have at least an opinion on adds. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:50
Whole board voting en masse will never work, no one is interested in voting on thousands of obscure or lesser known artists, (this is without looking at the plethora of 'Bandcamp; suggestions) so if the bulk of the work-load falls on a select few representative volunteer collaborators, and the whole board is happy for them to do that, then the same consideration must be given to all evaluations, whether they are high-profile artists or not. There is also the question of what voting criteria you adopt and how you determine when "the whole board" has voted. Those who decide (ie the genre team members) changes on an irregular basis, the breadth of inclusions generally doesn't change significantly as a result. The system, however flawed it may appear to be, actually works rather well. It is a team effort on a majority vote so no single team member can force through a band that the rest of the team disagree with. With 'controversial' suggestions (which all of the bands mentioned in this thread inevitably would be), this has to be a unanimous vote. Any change in the inclusions that you can see occurring over time (or that Chris predicts could happen in the next 10-15 years) is more a reflection of the change in PA as a whole than any change in the genre teams, however, since the majority of 'controversial' additions occurred in the dim and distant past if anything the PA has become more conservative. However, I am pleasantly surprised at how consistent the teams are as a whole, it's easy to pick one or two decisions that raise eyebrows but those are insignificant in relation to the number of evaluations each team has to work through, and since those have been on a majority or unanimous vote it is difficult to argue against them or accuse anyone of favouritism or having an agenda. My past disagreements with some of the teams has never been over which artists they include, but with how they reached the decision - for me the wrong band for the wrong reason is worse than the right band for the wrong reason is worse than the wrong band for the right reason - it should always be the right band for the right reason. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:54
David lives in California, USA, I reside in Hampshire, UK. We have never met though I would not pass-up the opportunity should it ever arise. He is not my wing-man, nor I his, and we have never been on the same genre team (he was Heavy Prog, I was Crossover, PR & PP) and we have had some disagreements in the past but never serious ones. ------------- What? |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 13:01
His bad choice of words then.! Certainly not mine.Mind you , you did post once something about humor and grains of salt. Dean, you obviously don't need any wing men, having your strong opinions based on some solid arguments but a few have popped up on occasion. One cannot help noticing and making fun of it. PA is not democracy but we are allowed to disagree, I mean that kind of censorship would spell the demise of any site, save the NSDAP glee club. 
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 13:21
It is not about adding bands that people like and it is certainly not about adding bands that I like. There are a number of bands that I like that have no place here and a few of my own suggestions have been shot-down (in flames I may add). The same is true for all members of genre teams - we don't add bands just because we like them. John Foxx is not included because he has never been formally suggested or evaluated; I have never suggested him for evaluation (and I never will), but I will sing his praises at every opportunity ( http://www.progarchives.com/google-search-results.asp?cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=dean+john+foxx&cx=partner-pub-0447992028883143%3Abrdi7c3wepz&sa=submit&siteurl=www.progarchives.com%2F&ref=www.progarchives.com%2Fforum%2Fforum_posts.asp%3FTID%3D73146&ss=9843j5572671j30" rel="nofollow - and frequently have done - seriously, if you've never heard Tiny Colour Movies or Cathedral Oceans or anything he's done with The Maths then go to YouTube and give then a listen). None of this is a knee-jerk reaction to a suggestion that we've never heard before - Ultravox were suggested several times in the past with Eric (EDub) being their most vocal supporter. I have followed Ultravox since I first saw them on live back in 1977 and know their discography pretty well, at no time did I ever think they were a Prog band. The decision to reject them for Crossover back in 2007 was a carefully considered decision made by the entire team, (which also included Chris), by the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=3942760#3942760" rel="nofollow - site-rules their 2012 release entitles them to be re-evaluated, but ONLY if that album is deemed to be relevant (and since you have not mentioned it at all my assumption is that it isn't). Fragile is not an Ultravox album, if you want Midge Ure to be evaluated then he has to be suggested separately as a solo artist.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 13:38
You asked how can I champion someone who is ineligible? The answer is simple - I promoted them in the General Music forum without formally suggesting them for evaluation and without trying to make a case for their "progginess". If I cannot convince myself that they have a place here then I stand no chance of convincing any one else. However, I can recommend them to other people. How that relates to having courage (ie the balls) only David can answer. ------------- What? |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 13:43
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Hope that Magazine will get a look. Barry Adamson's bass still resonates with me , those first 2 albums were amazing. I saw them live and it was tremendously adventurous. McGeoch played a mean guitar and Formula's keys electrifying. Howard Devoto , easily the oddest looking bloke ever, second only to Ian Dury! LOL ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 13:44
Which is why I only 'presumed' He needs to explain himself clearly......------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: September 01 2014 at 14:08
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Pointy sideburns and enigmatic looks - sorry not prog ! Better off with a Post-Punk Archives somewhere otherwise we could go on forever... If we let them in we would have nothing to talk about... ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 03:10
I had no idea a conversation about my balls had occurred; they weren't even ringing. And I absolutely am Dean's wingman anytime he needs one, not that he often does. BTW it was tzirmay's scrotum I was referring to. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 03:27
They do - they just have to volunteer to join one of the genre teams
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 03:50
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As much as I subscribe to the ideas of democracy, it's still utopian to think that PA would be able to implement the power of "everybody" in the eval process. It'd take ages before we'd reach a verdict. Also, I happen to subscribe to the notion that some indeed are more knowledgeable about certain facets of the prog rock umbrella. These people often end up on teams that reflect this. That's why I was part of the electronic team for a bit: I am a big fan of PE and have read a lot about it and it's progression. The same goes for every other team member out there methinks. In addition to that: the folks who are responsible for the evaluating/adding process also need to be on the same page as PA - meaning having at least some bearings on the different subs, and moreover how we use them. Case in point: I have seen a lot of members, who obviously know their stuff and have probably been there with prog ever since it dropped out of Fripp's poop shute back during the Korean war.....yet with ideas on what prog is that simply go against the site. Johnny Winter, Grateful Dead, Free, Cream and loads of other blues rock bands, who probably were immensely progressive for their day yet had nothing to do with prog. What I'm getting at is that PA obviously looks for collabs who are on the same page as it. I gather that's how I ended up on the electronic team in the first place.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 05:43
What about Anti-Prog as a new sub-genre of PA? Just kidding, of course. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 09:16
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Thanks to Tszirmay, Dean, Chopper, Guld for explaining the process of including bands.
Personally I would think it would be nice to have some input from the general board members in some small way .
Maybe the members could all vote and if it's over a 50% yes for inclusion then that could count en masse as one vote for inclusion to add to the collaborators votes. Just a thought.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 09:27
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 09:44
Cool  This is part of the current evaluation list. Let me know when every member has voted on every suggestion:
------------- What? |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 10:16
But that's never going to happen. If only 4 people vote for a particular band and 2 of them say yes, then they'd be in but it still wouldn't be a very representative sample, and the sheer volume of new bands as demonstrated by Dean makes this impractical. I do believe we need a new system to cope with the volume but I'm not sure what the solution is.
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 10:33
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 11:28
Well, you obviously do not know my scrotum too well as you forgot to add an S to my username. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 11:37
...the unkindest cut of all  ------------- What? |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 11:48
Castration will be my epitaph and I fear tomorrow I'll be crying ! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 12:00
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I have voted on Pendulum and I voted no and there are no votes for. So Pendulum will not be admitted. (TFFT) ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 12:01
That would be Genesis P Orridge and he's already here... ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 12:28
Unfortunately 10 voters is no more representative than 3, and could even be less representative. And no, it is not the same argument (at all, ever). Team members are representatives for the whole membership but they, (by virtue of being carefully selected), are not a representative sample of the whole membership. If being "representative" were a team membership criteria then the Prog Metal Team would have members that hate Metal and do not believe that it should be included on a Prog Rock site, at least two team members would like Prog Metal if it didn't have death-growl vocals and we'd have one numpty who couldn't tell the difference between Symphonic Metal and Power Metal even if their life depended upon it. [And the Indo/Ragu Prog team would be composed entirely of people who had no idea that the subgenre existed or what it was about  ]. With random member voting we would have no way of gauging how representative their votes are or whether they have been objective in their voting - I could go and "no" vote every Jazz Rock/Fusion suggestion without even listening to a single track simply because I dislike JR/F, or I could "no" vote every band from Wiltshire or "yes" vote every band with a female bass-player; or (and this is seriously more likely) I could "yes" vote all the bands I like and "no" vote all the ones I don't like. PA additions are not a popularity contest yet addition voting would turn into one, ask yourself how many people vote for their "favourite" band in Prog Polls instead of actually voting as directed in the Poll question? As an aside. I have long since stated that majority-voting is wrong, the vote should be unanimous with every team member voting, but this is unworkable (and difficult for me to explain) so we are stuck with majority-voting.
This is untenable and unworkable, moving the backlog further upstream doesn't reduce the workload, the total number of suggestions would remain the same, we'd just have a huge "pending" list instead.
I believe this too, and part of the solution lays in scrapping the artist subgenres and having album tagging instead. This way the genre a band resides in would be an automatic process determined by the tagging statistics of their albums (and this could be weighted on album average to ensure that they were placed for their more popular albums). This would also streamline the genre teams down to the four disciplines of Metal, Rock, Jazz and Electronic. Now the teams only have to decide whether the band is Prog or not. Prog Related would remain the category supervised by the Admin Team and they would be given the ability to delete bands. It would also help considerably if we had a [non-Prog] category for "unsigned" bands where all the Bandcamp suggestions would be placed once a genre team had voted them in. An artist would only be moved out of that category when they have more than a predetermined number of reviews, which would filter out all the bands that are only famous for fifteen people. This category would be subject to regular culling. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 12:31
But but but but the SWilson sings on one of their songs and they have a keytar ... a freakin' keytar damit! ------------- What? |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 12:44
Sorry. Votes happened. 100% against. KEEEtaarrr or no Keetarrrr! * had a recount and still 1 against and none for. Sorry! ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 03 2014 at 12:53
Fairy Snuff. The majority has spoken. ------------- What? |