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Techical nous or individualism whats better

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Topic: Techical nous or individualism whats better
Posted By: matty3198
Subject: Techical nous or individualism whats better
Date Posted: September 17 2014 at 16:07

I posted this on the You Tube Vinyl community, but I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

I was on a YouTube video where someone was listing their 10 best guitarists and someone dismissed half the list as being technicians with no heart.

It got me thinking, what attributes do you consider make a great guitarist. Is it technical/improvisational ability, or is it having an individual style.




Replies:
Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: September 17 2014 at 19:21
Individuality and a distinct sound like Hackett or Rothery. Technical flash has no appeal to me unless there is some heart and soul in the playing.

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Posted By: unclemeat69
Date Posted: September 17 2014 at 23:13
Individuality above anything else.
With enough practice most musicians can get technical skills but individuality is all about self-expression, you can't really learn that, either it's there or it isn't.

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Follow your bliss


Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: September 17 2014 at 23:31
Self expression versus noodling.......................Wink

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Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 01:51
An ability to fit what they are doing into the sounds of the musicians around them.


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 05:46
Originally posted by Wanorak Wanorak wrote:

Individuality and a distinct sound like Hackett or Rothery. Technical flash has no appeal to me unless there is some heart and soul in the playing.
Exactly that. Technical skill is impressive but you need the feeling.


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 08:33
I think the question is worded somewhat unfairly.  I would bet that people who prefer technical excellence in guitarists' playing do so because they see some beauty, some expression in it that maybe other people can't.  Otherwise, how else could it resonate with them?  There is such a thing as mathematical beauty.  I'm playing devil's advocate here because I'm not one of those people, but let's not make the mistake that people who love technical density are somehow soulless.

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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 09:09
This old chestnut again. In my experience what is usually meant by this is "I don't like him/her/them so he/she/they must be soulless technicians". Horses for courses people, style and technical proficiency are not mutually exclusive, a players proficiency is just another tool for expressing themselves and how well they make use of it is largely subjective. Thats not to say there aren't musicians/bands that don't get their "message" lost in the technicality of their playing (*cough*ELP*cough*Wink) but I've come across plenty of bands/musicians that were lacking in technical ability and were, IMO, completely soulless as well.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 09:10
Simple question. Simple Answer. Both.

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Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 09:50
Both can be good things or bad things depending upon context. Neither equate to good. The presence or absence of either should serve the whole.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 10:08
^See Jimi Hendrix.

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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 10:13
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

This old chestnut again. In my experience what is usually meant by this is "I don't like him/her/them so he/she/they must be soulless technicians". Horses for courses people, style and technical proficiency are not mutually exclusive, a players proficiency is just another tool for expressing themselves and how well they make use of it is largely subjective. Thats not to say there aren't musicians/bands that don't get their "message" lost in the technicality of their playing (*cough*ELP*cough*Wink) but I've come across plenty of bands/musicians that were lacking in technical ability and were, IMO, completely soulless as well.

Exactly, technical proficiency and style are not mutually exclusive.  It takes skill in the first place to be able to express oneself in a way that stands out among many talented musicians.


Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 11:07
Robert Johnson, Blind Boy Fuller, Leadbelly, Muddy Waters, BB King and the like....play with more emotion than anything else. Sure they have some technicality but I much more prefer emotion to technical noodling.

Can the two meld? Sure can..Hackett, Gilmour, Lifeson, Rothery.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 11:10
^   Clap

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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 11:10
As Martin Barre once said "Anybody can play a great solo, you only need to practice, but to orchestrate with a guitar, you need more than that". Personally, I think he was talking about talent.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 11:15
^ I agree but I  think that Barre, as well as others, are talking about the need for a personal style mixed with technical expertise.

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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 12:58
First of all there is a common misconception that by technicality we mean only speed and flashy chops such as sweep picking, eight finger tapping etc. But melody, harmony, dynamics, arrangement and so forth are also techniques which can be learnt. Unfortunately since Eddie Van Halen many guitarists concentrated their technical learning only in the areas of speed and flashy chops dismissing many other important areas.

In the 90's Mike Varney launched a project to promote many of these, Jason Becker, George Lynch, Marty Friedman, Greg Howe, Michael Lee Firkins, Vinnie Moore, Richie Kotzen, Tony MacAlpine and many more. In the beginning many of these were rather soulless hair-metal guitar wizards with impressive chops but little personality and feeling and a rather limited musical scope, but it's also true that with time many of them developed into very good players and many ventured into the more demanding scene of fusion, which expanded their musical abilities far beyond speed-of-light chops.

At any rate, feeling and originality is the most important for me, but all the better if it's coupled with good technical skills.


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 19:20
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ I agree but I  think that Barre, as well as others, are talking about the need for a personal style mixed with technical expertise.

Absolutely. You can not play a great solo, no matter how much you practice, if you don't have technique first, and practice will also enhance your technique. That being said, Personal style is necessary as long as your talent is there, to set you apart from others, otherwise, you'll just play and sound good (maybe), but won't stamp your name in music history.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 19:33
^I absolutely agree with both you and Gerinski. You must have the "chops" before you can cut your own path. Great posts.

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Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: September 18 2014 at 20:46
Robert Fripp is full of technical wizardry but even he admits that he has great difficulty matching his solos to his feelings--tat they lack resonance with his heart. I remember an interview with him from the early eighties in which he cited John McLaughlin as being his prime example of a guitar player who expresses himself and his heart with each and every solo--whereas he felt that he was almost never capable of achieving such. (Though I do remember seeing him soloing on "Sheltering Sky" on the Beat  tour when he got so emotional with a particular solo run that he almost got up off of his stool! Everybody in the crowd roared cuz we knew how close Sir Robert came to actually "letting go"--and how seldom he actually did so.)

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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 02:51
The problem with these discussions is usually that non musicians come along and say "Hey, Hendrix, man, best guitarist ever" - when asked *why* they get a bit lost for an answer, other than it's what they've been told, and, er........ I can't blame them for not knowing anything about the use of I7#9 chords and whether that's innovative or not, my take on it is "fairly but not much compared to what some jazz guitarists got up to.... and Hendrix had a great deal of influences, including jazz."

John McLaughlin was, for me, far more impressive. If you stick on "Meeting of the spirits" then you may have an indication of what I'm talking about.

Then again, you might not. ;-) Y'see, the problem is that a lot of people can't actually hear music properly. A staggeringly large number of people can't hold a tune or even clap in time. They hear something which they're told is amazing by some (invariably) clueless music journalist, and it becomes de rigeur to assume that Guitarist X is the best thing since sliced bread. All guitarists - all musicians - work on a huge mental back catalogue of influences - for example, listen to Red House by Jimi Hendrix, and you'll hear Buddy Guy, B B King, Muddy Waters etc. The approach in playing it, for the time, was revolutionary, so, for an example, the technique and execution is innovative. But there ain't much new there in terms of content. 

There are only 12 notes to an octave. A lot of guitar solos are in pentatonic major and minor keys, where you're really only using five notes. So there are only so many combinations, and nearly everything has been done before. A lot of respondees to this thread will claim innovation is important..... it's exceedingly rare. When fingertapping (hate it) became popular in the 80's, every single wannabe famous guitarist started fingertapping out execrable dreck. The journos went mad. Ditto the public. However, fingertapping wasn't new, it'd been around for 20 years before that. It was just the latest manufactured craze. To show how brilliant guitarist were. Why ? To sell records. 

Ditto "heavy metal guitarists", which I hate with a passion. Any fool can play fast. You just move your fingers faster. But. What're you playing there, hairy boy ? Oh, it's just some junk arpeggio, you don't actually know how to play, do you ? But do carry on, spandex trousers are indeed a substitute for being able to play.

So, if you're looking for a black and white answer here, it probably doesn't exist. From a perspective of innovation, it's very difficult - to the point of near impossibility - to come up with something *new*. It's nearly all been done before. If you want to really do something unusual, ie free jazz, your listening market will decline to nothing as everyone finds less headache inducing music. If you think it's all about a technical approach, whoops, you may be able to play the most complicated chords and arpeggios known to man, the only people who'll appreciate them are a few sad old musos out there - everyone else just hears noise. 

I think we'd all agree (I hope we do) that the conveyance of emotion is massively important, but if you don't have the basic skills to do so, whoopsy there, too.


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 08:08
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Simple question. Simple Answer. Both.
^this

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 09:09
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Robert Fripp is full of technical wizardry but even he admits that he has great difficulty matching his solos to his feelings--tat they lack resonance with his heart. I remember an interview with him from the early eighties in which he cited John McLaughlin as being his prime example of a guitar player who expresses himself and his heart with each and every solo--whereas he felt that he was almost never capable of achieving such. (Though I do remember seeing him soloing on "Sheltering Sky" on the Beat  tour when he got so emotional with a particular solo run that he almost got up off of his stool! Everybody in the crowd roared cuz we knew how close Sir Robert came to actually "letting go"--and how seldom he actually did so.)
This is a great post BF because it touches on one of the intangibles in our  field. The relationship of the heart and emotions with the creation of music and how important that may be to some artists.

When I first got into studio recording as an assistant engineer, I had the chance to have lunch with a record exec who had spent the entire last afternoon with David Gilmour. I was absolutely stunned and immidiately asked what Gilmour was like.
His relationship with Gilmour was strickly business so it's not like your going to see all sides of the man. But he said something that stuck with me for years; "Thank God Gilmour has that guitar to express his emotions otherwise he would never be able to express himself." That was my first realization of the connection between the heart, the inner person and his instrument, and it stuck with me for years.

It's interesting but sad that Fripp was so close to "letting go" that night and perhaps could not do what others did with their instrument: Express their feelings.


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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:03
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Robert Fripp is full of technical wizardry but even he admits that he has great difficulty matching his solos to his feelings--tat they lack resonance with his heart. I remember an interview with him from the early eighties in which he cited John McLaughlin as being his prime example of a guitar player who expresses himself and his heart with each and every solo--whereas he felt that he was almost never capable of achieving such. (Though I do remember seeing him soloing on "Sheltering Sky" on the Beat  tour when he got so emotional with a particular solo run that he almost got up off of his stool! Everybody in the crowd roared cuz we knew how close Sir Robert came to actually "letting go"--and how seldom he actually did so.)
This is a great post BF because it touches on one of the intangibles in our  field. The relationship of the heart and emotions with the creation of music and how important that may be to some artists.

When I first got into studio recording as an assistant engineer, I had the chance to have lunch with a record exec who had spent the entire last afternoon with David Gilmour. I was absolutely stunned and immidiately asked what Gilmour was like.
His relationship with Gilmour was strickly business so it's not like your going to see all sides of the man. But he said something that stuck with me for years; "Thank God Gilmour has that guitar to express his emotions otherwise he would never be able to express himself." That was my first realization of the connection between the heart, the inner person and his instrument, and it stuck with me for years.

It's interesting but sad that Fripp was so close to "letting go" that night and perhaps could not do what others did with their instrument: Express their feelings.


That is why it is so hard to know when they are really "feeling it.." as they play on stage. I have to think Fripp is feeling it and playing with some emotion as he sits on that stool. He may not be showing his feelings on his face and with body movements, but I would think internally he feels it.

Classical musicians have both, much more technicality, but if you watch them play as they are sitting in that chair...you can sense the emotion...That is where I make one connection between progressive rock and classical music, tremendous amount of emotion and feelings but without the physical showings of it.


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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:10
^Good point Catch but classical musicians can't get up and boogie either. Cool idea though.

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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:19
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Good point Catch but classical musicians can't get up and boogie either. Cool idea though.

These "classical musicians" did boogie a lot on this tour! LOL



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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 04:00
What matters is the artistic genius' natural talent for translating intellectual ideas into artistic expression by systematizing the free imagination's products into a coherent systematized artistic expression, in a way that appears natural by appealing to the shared human faculties of rational understanding and sensory space/time experience.

Hence, the genial artwork will in turn stimulate transcendental reason's capacity to triumph over the physical forces of the universe by uncovering the deeper existential truths into the noumenal world's causal effect behind the sensory world of appearances.



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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 06:54
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Ditto "heavy metal guitarists", which I hate with a passion. Any fool can play fast. You just move your fingers faster. But. What're you playing there, hairy boy ? Oh, it's just some junk arpeggio, you don't actually know how to play, do you ? But do carry on, spandex trousers are indeed a substitute for being able to play.


Not all heavy metal guitarists are about speed and not even all the well known ones.  Marty Friedman's solo on Tornado of Souls is very playful and has loads of flavour.  It is still played pretty fast but that's because the music is so driving and intense.  He has played some other great solos on the Megadeth albums that he was a part of.  And what about Adrian Smith's solo on Reincarnation of Benjamin Breeg?  It may be a bit cliched but it's certainly not devoid of emotion.  


Posted By: progrockdeepcuts
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 20:02
I'm pretty sure Guthrie Govan can play anything. He can be flashy and technical, but he can also deliver something like this.



So yeah, a bit of both.


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Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 20:22
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

What matters is the artistic genius' natural talent for translating intellectual ideas into artistic expression by systematizing the free imagination's products into a coherent systematized artistic expression, in a way that appears natural by appealing to the shared human faculties of rational understanding and sensory space/time experience.

Hence, the genial artwork will in turn stimulate transcendental reason's capacity to triumph over the physical forces of the universe by uncovering the deeper existential truths into the noumenal world's causal effect behind the sensory world of appearances.

In other words, "it's good if It speaks to my soul, man." Cool


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Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 20:49
I'm not primarily (-I didn't say exclusively-) interested in expressing emotions on guitar and am not really interested in any guitarists for their emotions any more than I am in knowing my favorite sci-fi author's emotions. I am mainly interested in work that takes one outside of oneself. Work that maybe contains emotions, but embedded within some invented world. For me, I prefer the musical equivalent of Impressionism over Expressionism. I think 'intangibles' might be a more broadly applicable term than 'emotion'.

I must agree with those who have emphasized how technical ability opens the door to intangibles. Ability to play fast can be (I didn't say must be) quite essential to expressing oneself. Expressing oneself or exploring intangibles is in the end about making decisions on the fly, and cultivating the ability to think faster can be of great assistance. Even a slow passage sounds better once a guitarist is warmed up.


Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 06:15
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

In other words, "it's good if It speaks to my soul, man." Cool


More that it's good if it speaks to humanity's collective astral soul and opens up its ascension towards the galactic λόγος.




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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 08:40
So if it speaks to my buddy's soul too and we begin to see aliens without smoking nothing. Far out, man, far out.

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Posted By: thwok
Date Posted: September 29 2014 at 07:24
Like most of the responders here, I assume, I'm siding with individuality.   There are a thousand guitarists with mad skills.  Steve Vai is my favorite guitarist because what he does is unique.

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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: September 29 2014 at 14:00
Maybe it's that not just music but any kind of art needs some kind of individual genius' vision guiding it to be really interesting and innovative in content, but this imagination has to be disciplined by a certain degree of technical skill to be systematically composed into a well thought out structure to be appreciated by the audience? Depending of in nature depending on the specific cultural audience the artist has in mind.

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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook


Posted By: AreYouHuman
Date Posted: September 29 2014 at 23:43
Me, I just listen and say “Him play good.”

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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: September 30 2014 at 00:42
Nothing pisses my off more than the "technical ability=masturbation" argument. The argument is analogous to saying your favorite doctors are general practitioners and surgeons are medical masturbators. It is paradoxically self indulgent to accuse an artist/performer of having no feeling because you don't feel it. That all things mean the same thing to all people is rife with an absurd level of arrogance. Nobody but the artist is privy to his/her motivation. Prog/fans community in  particular should be cautious of this attitude considering that opinion is one of the basic tenets of the general disregard for the genre.

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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 30 2014 at 09:03
Hi,
 
Generally, and I say this ... in general ... I would suggest that the technical side of things becomes more visible as many musicians get older. However, they also get lazier more often than not, and excuse their work as better, when in essence it is/becomes simple.
 
All in all, this is an "outside looking in" argument, and it really fails the test of "intuition" and "individuality", specially when that individuality is laced with culture from the particular area the person is from!


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Posted By: pitfall
Date Posted: October 01 2014 at 17:43
Originality is often lacking these days, and originality is not dependent on technique.
What is needed is to tap into one's unique personality, and in this time of wall to wall information access, it is very hard to hear that inner voice.
There is chemistry inside the individual and between individuals, and that is where creativity is to be found.
Creativity is magic, and magic is outside of method.


Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: October 01 2014 at 20:00
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I absolutely agree with both you and Gerinski. You must have the "chops" before you can cut your own path. Great posts.

I second that. Prog, along with quality jazz and classical, is apex music. Lack of technical skills would limit the musician's ability to express complex thoughts. 


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 01 2014 at 21:59
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Nothing pisses my off more than the "technical ability=masturbation" argument. The argument is analogous to saying your favorite doctors are general practitioners and surgeons are medical masturbators. It is paradoxically self indulgent to accuse an artist/performer of having no feeling because you don't feel it. That all things mean the same thing to all people is rife with an absurd level of arrogance. Nobody but the artist is privy to his/her motivation. Prog/fans community in  particular should be cautious of this attitude considering that opinion is one of the basic tenets of the general disregard for the genre.

Indeed, and further this is the kind of viewpoint that would resonate more with punk.  So it's very strange that a lot of prog rock listeners seem to take this position. It would only seem to suggest they underestimate the importance of technical skills, as if these were something you could readily buy off the shelf in a supermarket.


Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: October 01 2014 at 22:53
I can't think of any example of guitar playing that is emotive but I'm a robot

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wtf


Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 02:27
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ I agree but I  think that Barre, as well as others, are talking about the need for a personal style mixed with technical expertise.

Absolutely. You can not play a great solo, no matter how much you practice, if you don't have technique first, and practice will also enhance your technique. That being said, Personal style is necessary as long as your talent is there, to set you apart from others, otherwise, you'll just play and sound good (maybe), but won't stamp your name in music history.

That makes sense, but more than once I witnessed free jams where a complete beginner would choose an instrument, and find a way to play it. Provided he was not too busy and the other musicians could actually listen and play, it felt more than once like doors were opening to something new + very exciting...


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Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 22:47
Shouldn't it be more important for a band to function as a whole?



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