Mind & Muse: The Ego and Creating Prog Music
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Topic: Mind & Muse: The Ego and Creating Prog Music
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Mind & Muse: The Ego and Creating Prog Music
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 08:42
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How do you think David Gilmour felt when he was dismissed, along with Nick Mason, By Roger Waters after the completion of Pink Floyd's The Final Cut? After years of recording Floyd's most brilliant guitar solos and lead vocals on so many Floyd songs, Waters just turned his back on him, forever. And what of Waters'? The great conceptual and lyrical side of Floyd? Did his ego cloud his judgement?When Peter Gabriel informed the other members of Genesis that he was leaving because he felt that he was "out growing' them, do you think that the rest of the group rallied together to produce an album that was just as good or better than previous albums with Gabriel? Was ego in the form of pride involved? Or was it just business as usual for the group? On a lighter note I'll convey a well know American recording studio story about an assistent engineer named Ron Saint Germain that was given the unenviable task of editing a Hendrix/Band of Gypsys studio jam into a posthumous album track for the ill fated 1975 album Crash Landing. An excellent editing and "punch in" engineer, Saint Germain spent countless hours editing and tidying up Buddy Miles sloppy drum solo. As he was playing the track back over the studio monitors, Miles happened to walk in to the studio at the time and hearing his great "solo", smiled broadly at Saint Germain and said "Ain't I a mother______!" Saint Germain didn't have the heart to tell Miles how much work went into tightening up his sloppy solo and Miles walked out a happy man. (see Hendrix: Setting The Record Straight by John McDermott with Eddie Kramer. Pub.1992). Ego. But what exactly is the relationship between an artist's ego and the creation of his or her music? Is there or can there ever be a balance between the two? What do think about this special relationship? Or have you never thought about it at all? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Replies:
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 09:20
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I can honestly say that if I write a Chamber Rock piece clocking in at 15 or 17 minutes, I am not always open to suggestions from musicians who want to change the form or structure of it. If they present an idea or 2 that can reflect in a positive way..what I have written..then so be it. But that's not exactly turning my back on their efforts. If the project consists of team work, I usually shut up and listen to instructions. Sometimes critics and musicians confuse the process of a specific writer who has the music planned out and refuses to change it with a different musician/writer who becomes insulted over it and bingo! He/She ends up being the one with the overblown ego. Many musicians who have music pre-planned in it's entirety prior to recording it are serious about producing an idea. That shouldn't be confused with having an ego simply because another musician in the band (who apparently does not understand this composer's approach) , wants to change the music...and justify's the notion by accusing the composer of having a inflated ego. Street musicians often say..."If it's my baby then leave it alone" It's simply a matter of observing the situation before printing your own version of it in a magazine...which is my advice to rock journalists. I don't know for sure if Genesis were on a mission to compete with Gabriel. Remember that Tony Banks was a fine writer anyway and perhaps it just appears that they may have been on a ego trip. Roger Waters stated in the past that if he had allowed Gilmour to change or re-arrange his work for Wish You Were Here, that the album would differ in musical style and possibly not be as appealing to the thousands of Floyd fans who know the songs and appreciate the end product. Of course the album would have sounded much different, but it's too late now and it would be like changing the composition on Sgt. Pepper 40 years later. The fans love what Waters contributed on W.Y.W.H. and any "what if' ..is not considered because so much time has exceeded. If fans were able to hear the album today with all the sections Gilmour had suggested over Waters ideas, they might dislike it. Or any Floyd album for that matter where Gilmour's ideas were taken over by Waters'. On another note...if Gilmour had been allowed to inject all his sincere ideas between 75' to 82' ...would anyone truly know the difference? It's catch 22 or just a big mystery with a lot of what if's. At any rate, The ego's clashed in that particular case. When Fripp wrote the piece RED, Bruford didn't understand what to do with the piece and was not giving Fripp the musical balance he desired at that time. Even though the recording is appealing to members on P.A., Fripp truly didn't accomplish what he desired in the drum department until he recorded "Breathless". It's difficult to understand just how Fripp wanted RED to sound and evidently he settled for what we all hear on record, although he was personally disappointed in it.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:15
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I think they all of course have egos, they are artists....They must have an ego of some magnitude. Where those egos cause problems or not is in how the band handle them. Mike Portnoy, an ego maniac.....After making his announcement, I believe he thought "man, these guys cannot go on without me!!??" Even if it was just a fleeting thought....would anyone admit to it, probably not. But you know this stuff happens all the time....they are artists. -------------   
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:21
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I think every human being is prone to selfishness. It's just more in your face, when folks are 'famous' - be that in music, films or cooking. Without it art, in general, would be a rather bland thing. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:22
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@Catcher10: Yes I deffinately got the same impression about Portnoy but didn't want to ruffle feathers. I never considered his view as fleeting and that's incredibly possible for someone like him. He's such an over achiever, luckily for us, that he might have briefly lost focus before he was able to gather it back together. Funny, DT just is not the same for me without him. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:28
I like that "over achiever", describes him well. I do consider him a master of his art and love his playing....I have said before in live concert reviews of Neal Morse shows how I thought his playing has much more feeling and emotion than the last few yrs with DT. For me too, they are not the same anymore. -------------
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SteveG wrote:Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:30
I didn't know this, thanks for the story. Very interesting to speculate on how the tune would've sounded like, if he had found the right 'expression'. As a sidenote, I've always wondered how Larks' Tongues and Red would've felt like if Andrew McCulloch had stayed behind the drumming kit.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 11:15
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You mentioned Floyd Steve, which to me, is THE poster-child of democracy in music (read: music I love). As much as I adore The Wall, there's something gone missing even there, something that crystallized in The Final Cut. When these guys worked together and came up with the material collectively, they were absolutely brilliant. Funny thing is that my current favourite of theirs, Atom Heart Mother, was a Frankenstein creature made up of seemingly arbitrary pieces strung together. I believe they all came up with different ideas, and then it all came together with Ron Geesin stepping in. In the end it's more Ron's baby than any of the Floyds'. Both Roger and David openly hate it and have on numerous occasions referred to it as something of an embarrassment. If we're talking egos, then I've always had the sneaking suspicion that the reason as to why they never liked it and why they've felt the need to speak so condescendingly about it, may well be down to it ultimately having been crafted in the hands of Geesin -not theirs. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 11:18
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Problems in any art form are never actually problems so much as inconsistencies. Some listeners will want it to take one side of that inconsistency whereas the artist may have intended to be the other. For instance, they might write a song that moves about with a lot of energy and has a repeating closing section that lasts two minutes or so. The listener may think it needs to be cut down, whereas the artist may have wanted it to rest on that idea for a long time to create exhaustion so that the next track, a ballad, won't seem like a huge drop in energy. So the solution may be to make the section even longer (or just leave it the way it is), but the listener may be stuck thinking it needs to be shorter until they hear the effect the artist is trying to create. I take criticism when I agree with it, but sometimes it makes little sense within my framework of a song. This isn't ego so much as knowing my own music. If someone hears a problem, there might be one, just not always the problem they identify it as. Unfortunately, people on both sides can get a little too thin-skinned. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: aaroncliftmusic
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 11:47
I've never met a musician who isn't an expert in humble bragging.  We all do it (myself included) because we're proud of the art we create and want others to feel that same sense of joy we feel when we create music.
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 12:02
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Some of it may be ego, but it is often a matter of different perspective, We (the listeners) would want another Beatles album, we don’t care about Lennons love life, That Gabriel had problems with his marriage, or if there was disagreements between David and Waters, making it impossible to continue with Floyd. I don’t think it is about huge ego, it just looks different for the outside, where we don’t get the full story. And I can easily imagine how hard it would be, to still create music with people (friends) I have worked with for decades. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 14:15
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 16:08
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Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: September 19 2014 at 21:37
If Alex Lifeson had an ego of any magnitude, he probably would have left Rush around 1982. ------------- Want to play mafia? Visit http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com" rel="nofollow - here . |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 06:25
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All big rock musicians have an ego. It's un avoidable. It's not always a bad thing, but can lead to rash decisions on their part. The more disconnected from reality someone becomes for whatever reason, the more likely they are to errors of judgement. In the case of PG and Genesis, I don't think either necessarily thought they were better than the other, they were just naturally moving in different directions. The band wanted the focus of attention to be on the music, and PG appeared to be more focussed on theatrical presentation. A basic differing of opinions. He probably left at the right time. He enjoyed a very successful solo career and the band went on to make some of their best albums imo. In te case of Floyd, I don't think Waters ego can even be measured. Floyd was always a hotbed of infighting and politics, which is a shame because the combo of the music and Waters lyrics and vision was an amazing and highly successful combination. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 08:23
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Bit of an obvious thread.....most of us have ego issues from time to time ,famous or not , and musicians are no exception. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 09:45
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Perhaps not so obvious Doc, as I've seen no responses that state that a temperamental artist is usually endured because of their unique genius, talent or vision. To me personally, the ends have usually justify the means. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 10:49
An Ego does not automatically result in something negative. That's another thing I've noticed that's missing from this thread. The ability to believe in one's self is its greatest achievement. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 11:08
That's not just in music but it applies to successful people in many walks of life. Rotten attitude from a multi-millionaire sportstar is more easily endured than it would be if he was just a neighbourhood bully.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 11:19
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 11:45
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A little ego goes a long way, a lot becomes obnoxious.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 11:53
Only as much to one as the other. Athletes (or their fans) make the excuse of being a bit differently abled in the upper storey (which in reality they are not) and artists lay claim to being uber sensitive or fragile. Either which way, nice pretext to exhibit behaviour that would ordinarily not be welcomed or maybe even tolerated by others. Can you imagine if Dave Mustaine was an obnoxious janitor, just how much slack, if any, would people cut for his behaviour. On the other hand, I can certainly imagine him as a kind of Jimmy Connors equivalent in tennis, badmouthing everyone and indulging in gamesmanship and always pretending he's right. And then being celebrated for making the game lively.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 11:58
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^Not tolerated by others? Are you sure about that? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 12:22
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From an audience's perspective, you could say the fact that they are talented artists makes a difference, but from another artist's perspective, they're more like an obnoxious co-worker. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 14:19
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^I had to cut off my dicussion wth RT, but the point I was heading at was that most people in these positions, sucessful artists and athletes, are usually wealthy and most times are treated differently by the general population even when they themselves do not want to be. That usually leads to other things after a while, unfortunately.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 16:20
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Rick Robson
Date Posted: September 20 2014 at 18:15
Gilmour's and Water's impressions about their own works are as subjective as anyone's, an artist is a forever changing source of creativeness, whose works are just diferent stages of his professional career. Btw I don't understand why Wright's thought was not told or regarded when talking about AHM, this album features so brilliantly such a typical PF's pastoral atmosphere, which I find present in Meddle too albeit in a lower degree. I really would like to know which was the extent of this (alleged or not?) Geesin's influence in the composition of those excelent pieces of music, for maybe the only PF album featuring also a symphonic-like touch which I appreciate so much. -------------  "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 00:11
Yeah, in extreme cases. Do you think people would like to hang out with an egoistic self obsessed nut who sings verses of profanity every time he opens his mouth? No. Or rather yes, as it turns out, if he was a very successful person. In the normal course of events, people would like to be treated nicely by those whom they deal with.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 00:14
I am not sure about the "do not want to be" part. Ego does take over after a point, not for everyone but for a lot of such artists or successful people. In the run up to the US Open, Federer thanked the authorities for putting him on Centre Court night after night where he would enjoy demonstrating his skills and he might not enjoy playing if he was put on a smaller court. Perhaps it was a veiled warning not to put him on Louis Armstrong where he lost to Robredo in 2013 but in any event, what happened to tennis? Here I was thinking tennis players just love playing above all but it's not quite so simple as it turns out. They start believing in the larger-than-life image of theirs that the media projects and begin to feel they have earned the right to be treated differently. This holds good in all walks of life. When my company's chairman, a very well known and well respected figure in the nation, stepped down after a long career, he remarked that the company had a culture where the juniors literally prostrated to the top guys (including him). Right, so did he ever tell them that it was totally unnecessary? Did he ever tell them it was not necessary to address him as Sir and he could be called Sir? I think not because the Sir culture is still very deeply entrenched in the company and I have only been a couple of years in the company. Mostly everyone would like the royal treatment, especially if they get it without expressly asking for it. That also becomes their downfall when their luck runs out but that's a different story.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 22 2014 at 09:53
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: September 22 2014 at 09:54
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It should be a team effort when the band is writing together, but if there are 2 outstanding writers IN the band, then those who are not very good writers, but contribute ideas...should have the respect for the 2 writers and actually be decent enough as a human being to give them their space. You can work as a team , but if a few members are more schooled than you, more experienced as writers, multi-talented, and possibly more talented , you simply have to shut up and listen. If you spend more time attempting to impress them with your lame writing than learning from them, you will never learn anything and it will take you twice the amount of time to ever reach their level. When a person is crushed by the talents of someone else, then their ego takes over. They should be humble and learn from the experience. There are loads of Progressive Rock musicians that hail from the 70's and have taken their playing abilities to higher levels because they were humble and listened to the Prog masters they worked with in famous Prog bands. Lol! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 22 2014 at 13:25
 When someone starts calling it "my band" instead of "our band" it's probably time to start looking for another band. ------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 22 2014 at 13:29
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^Right On. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:19
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Ego and musicians. Everyone says what a shame Cream split up, all down to Ginger Baker, pity Richie Blackmore left Deep Purple, why did Band A split up, why did someone stay so long in Band B ?????? - imagine you're painting a picture. Except it's not you. It's five people doing it. One starts drawing a cat in the bottom of your masterpiece. So you have a "creative difference". Then another one draws a little house with smoke coming out of the chimney. Cat Drawer and House Drawer fall out. Except you quite like the house. In the meantime, someone is crayoning over your artistic impression of La Gioconda..... then you all fall out. So you go down the pub. And, all being friends, yes, you work out that it's OK to have a moustache on the Mona Lisa. So eventually the picture is exhibited. Everyone says "We like the cat. But the moustache has to go." Cat Drawer says let's do a picture with cats in. You all sulkily agree. So you do lots of cats. Housey drawer gets a few houseys in. You let him. No one really likes the finished picture. You exhibit it. General public says it's not as good as that other lot who do better cat pictures. The cats have bigger noses. So you all fall out and the recriminations begin. The thing is, being in a band means joint effort for a common cause, and this is very, very difficult where a creative process is concerned. This is why bands have a half life at best and three albums then an explosion at worst.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 14:06
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Hi, I'm a writer. I know what I see and I write it down, the best I can. And as is very clear and visible in the poetry, there is no such thing as an "ego" ... this is what is written, that is what I SAW, and that is how I DESCRIBED it, to satisfy my inner VISION. That is not an EGO. That is someone's vision. Now comes the issue ... how to deal with 2 or 3 other people in order to create something cohesive, and we have heard all the stories and some were pretty and some were ugly. I don't think that Roger hates David any more than David hates Roger. I think they respect each other enough to realize that together they did a lot ... a hell of a lot ... that became way bigger than they had imagined. I find the stuff written on it pathetic and stupid in many situations, and in general they are either trashing one or the other, which is not necessary, but rock "fans" (and "idiots") keep thinking that we have to have some hate to be able to say anything. Or that one has to be right and the other wrong, so we can find some trash on the media this or that? The best example I have, is The Beatles. The bootlegs showed 4 people, living normal lives. All of the books are ridiculously written to appeased the middle class ideal of fame and fortune and ego ... because the social design needs you to think that some people are better than others, or you will NOT BUY THEIR BOOK, CD, OR CRAP! Or religion for that matter! I find it offensive, in these discussions ... because in the end, all it is doing is disparaging the most precious of human qualities ... that of creativity, and the ability, desire and dedication to translate it to something that some "public" might understand as some form of entertainment that gives them the right to judge ... everyone ... up to and including Jesus the Christ! Give it a break! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 14:28
Not the whole of the album but the title track was indeed the work of Geesin. This is common knowledge to most Floyd fans though, and I've never read anything from the band members to contradict it. Geesin glued the individual band member's bits together. He was also fully in charge of the choir, which he was a bit disappointed of. He's often spoken about his will to push the singers even further than what he already did. Without Geesin the Atom Heart Mother suite would've been unrealised or a huge mess imho. As it is, it's still a huge mess, but there's beauty and a storyline running through it that wouldn't have been there, If it hadn't been for Geesin. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 14:52
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^Great explanation on AHM, David. You got me listening to it after many years and it is superb. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Rick Robson
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 18:15
Yeah I get your point now, he was the responsible for the orchestration and organization of this such a beautiful suite turned out in a piece with a strong symphonic appeal - in my point of view the reason why David and Roger hated it. However I feel an alike spirit in Summer 68 by Richard Wright, another stunning piece that I enjoy very much. If we talk about a team effort I think it's good to remind the Alan Parsons credits as studio engineer on the Atom Heart Mother album, even if it was in a lesser degree compared to his work on DSOTM. ------------- "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 18:35
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I once heard the professional auto racer Mario Andretti say that part of his racing success was because he was selfish and that he did everything he could to insure that he was the number one team driver, that he had the best mechanics around him, etc. At first this shocked me because we're always taught that being selfish is wrong. I was very young when I heard this but it always stuck with me. What other things that we're taught are wrong but are actually an aid to us or to an athlete or artist? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 19:08
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There is a difference between being selfish and being brattish. When ego manifests itself in a music artist it generally leans towards brattish behaviour.
------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 19:14
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 19:31
Arrogance is never a good trait. I don't know what you would call the attribute but an artist that can get the best out of those they work with has to be an advantage. Very very few artists can do it all themselves, they need other people to help them realise their ideas. How they motivate those that work for them and with them says a lot about the man. ------------- What? |