Black Sabbath and unusual time signatures
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=99973
Printed Date: April 24 2024 at 20:09
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Black Sabbath and unusual time signatures
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Subject: Black Sabbath and unusual time signatures
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 17:46
|
I've read that Black Sabbath started out as a blues and jazz band and those elements kind of leaked into some of their songs. I've been trying out figure out the time signature for three of their songs - "The Wizard", "Cornucopia" and "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath". Any idea what they are? ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Replies:
Posted By: Ludjak
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 18:47
|
As far as I can remember, all three tunes are in 4/4 (although "Cornucopia" is mostly a shuffle, and "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" goes into a shuffle-like groove towards the end as well). There are a couple of syncopated beats here and there, possibly hinting at the blues/jazz connection you mentioned. "Planet Caravan" is probably the closest thing to "jazz" that Sabbath ever recorded, though. They did make humble, but honest efforts to experiment in their early years.
|
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 19:19
I drummed along to the songs in my head and your explanation makes sense. Thanks.  ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: October 18 2014 at 19:02
| Always thought Cornucopia had some strange rhythm..... |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 18 2014 at 19:16
13/16, 7/8, 11/16. What was the question again? 
|
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: October 18 2014 at 21:40
| Sabbath never really did odd-times sigs, though the intro to Computer God has some 7/8 riff at the start. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 18 2014 at 23:52
| ^^^ Yup. That, and also the intro to Master of Insanity is kind of jazzy. But that's it. |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: October 19 2014 at 22:38
| Not sure about odd time signatures but they did some pretty prog sounding stuff imo including some things from Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 20 2014 at 09:57
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
SteveG wrote:Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 23 2014 at 03:20
|
Moved to the prog related part of the forum. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 23 2014 at 04:02
|
You don't have to read about the blues & jazz influence, you can hear it all
through their music, heavy metal is essentially
blues-based. As for odd times, I think if they had imposed
odd sigs the music would'nt have had the appeal or impact that it
did. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 23 2014 at 10:41
|
^Agreed. Good point. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: October 23 2014 at 21:38
| Don't know so much about those unusual time signatures regarding a hard rock band as Black Sabbath as well. Imho, the most proggy songs by them are A National Acrobat, Gipsy, Johnny Blade, Juniors Eyes, Air Dance & The Sign Of Southern Cross. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: October 24 2014 at 11:25
|
"The Wizard" swings and there are many times when Bill Ward will be accenting significant hits during his rolls or what drummer used to call back then..."Roundhouses". This is a drum technique applied during the "Swing era" Ringo Starr used to play like this in 64' and 65' where it's clearly demonstrated on early recordings of The Beatles..that he has the ability to play "Big Band Jazz". I like the harp playing. It's a very interesting "dark" kind of Rock song and not just some fly by night attempt to sound heavy and dark with copy cat elements. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 06:29
|
^ You mention 'The Wizard'. Yes, Bill did put in some clever playing for this tune, and he was definitely a fine drummer throughout his tenure with the band. Funny info here, just yesterday, I took my afternoon smoko, and this big tough bald guy hopped in his 4-wheel drive and I heard Lonely Is The Word. Yeah, Dio Sabbath....... |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 08:46
|
Don't know anything about odd time sigs but the Wizard reminds me of a 'blues rave up' and something that The Yardbirds with Beck and Page might have done. The first Sabbath album is still my favorite. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 11:20
|
^Same for me. Black Sabbath: Black Sabbath is an absolute classic! ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 14:55
|
I love the dramatic tempo change halfway through "Megalomania" from the Sabotage album. Almost 40 years later, I still headbang to that epic monster of a song. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 16:18
|
Soundgarden were often called "what Black Sabbath would have sounded like, if they Incorporated odd-time signatures" -------------  
|
Posted By: greatnorthstar
Date Posted: July 15 2018 at 06:57
|
just to resurrect an old thread. the live version of 'wicked world' on 'live at last'/'past lives' has an extended jazz section that rocks. bill ward was schooled in jazz drumming. tony iommi is no mean jazz guitarist and geezer butler can turn his hand to any genre. this song was a staple in the set up until '73/'74 and there are many bootleg versions of these tune with breakout improvised jazz sections in the middle. recommended.
|
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 16 2018 at 01:36
| All I can say is that Bill Ward abso-fecking-lutely SWINGS !! No-one comes close.... |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 17 2018 at 17:06
|
Bill's awesome. One of the best drummers of the '70s, that's for certain. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: August 28 2018 at 03:28
|
Symptom Of The Universe has a fabulous jazz coda. Tony Iommi took a lot of Sabbath music from jazz; the harmony is extracted from jazz. he was a Joe Pass nut - quite understandable of course. A touch of volume, detuning, power chording and the Sabbath appeared. Some of their earlier material - the EP that predates the first album is an odd mix of jazz and metal e.g. The Rebel. Surprised it did not appear as a bonus on the deluxe edition of the first album. The trumpets were brave... Imagine classic Sabbath with a brass section. Probably a good idea to not release it. I have a bootleg from somewhere in Germany of their early jazz period. No discernible Ozzy vox but that was the nascent Sabbath. Geezer's bass style is very jazz. And how about that ol' crooner Bill Ward on It's Alright. Quite the influence on Tony Bennett. And as for Iommi's jazzy acoustic guitar solos; it's this harmony that gives him this distinction. |
Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: November 30 2018 at 14:04
|
I worked with Bill Ward (in his personal management company) during his Ward One: Along the Way recording, in 1989 (released in 1990) which became quite progressive, in my opinion. According to Bill, the BS boys liked to play jazz to warm up for rehearsals (of course, he's not playing with them right now). And it is correct that he had a grounding in jazz drumming, as did many of his era. ------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: November 30 2018 at 15:30
|
"Air Dance", say no more I actually discovered it through PA.
|
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: November 30 2018 at 15:34
|
Bill Ward always had a certain looseness and swing that you didn't hear much in rock. And you can hear the influence in unexpected places sometimes. For sure Jussi Tegelman of Finnforest was digging Bill's groove. ------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: Prog Sothoth
Date Posted: December 04 2018 at 07:07
Exactly. The first thing that popped into my head.
|
Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: December 10 2018 at 06:43
|
Odd time signatures don't make something "prog". ------------- |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: December 14 2018 at 14:18
We covered their favourite tune with my band and turned one 4/4 section into a 7/8 one  |