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giselle 
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Joined: March 18 2011
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 Posted: June 26 2011 at 04:54 |
I don't like a lot of what ELP did, but I'm uneasy with the barrage of criticism they receive for their whole body of work. To me they are one of the most important bands defining this genre. My doubts over what they did is to do with their writing and composition more than their playing, which is often of the highest calibre. Lack of taste would be another charge against them, but it must be remembered that long (and now boring) solos were de rigeur for the times, it's all very well to denigrate that now, but that's with the benefit of hindsight.
One thing we Prog fans often share with any boyband crowd is the willingness to often unfairly criticise on the basis of what we like or dislike, confusing that purely subjective judgement with quality analysis. Don't get me wrong, I've done it too. But it's wrong and unhealthy - and unfair.
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rogerthat
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Posted: June 26 2011 at 05:11 |
 giselle wrote:
I don't like a lot of what ELP did, but I'm uneasy with the barrage of criticism they receive for their whole body of work. To me they are one of the most important bands defining this genre. My doubts over what they did is to do with their writing and composition more than their playing, which is often of the highest calibre. Lack of taste would be another charge against them, but it must be remembered that long (and now boring) solos were de rigeur for the times, it's all very well to denigrate that now, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. |
I have heard a fair few concerts of the other big prog rock bands. Genesis and Yes often almost reproduced the studio versions (which has its own demerits but that's beside the point here), Gentle Giant made interesting medleys and only deviated a bit here and there from their material (and hey, they were not big league anyway), KC flew off into experimental and challenging improvisations which demanded a certain level of attention from the audience but could not be accused of showboating. ELP clearly did like to include long solos to showcase the technical skills of Emerson and Palmer (and I am not particularly convinced here, additionally, that Palmer was so much better than Bruford that he had to show off full on about it). Whether it was right or wrong to single them out is not a relevant question because in point of fact, they were but it was their propensity to show off that made them an easy target. Another thing: possessing of high technical skills is one thing and playing interesting leads on stage is another. It is not necessary that the playing of extremely capable musicians is always beyond reproach because they've also got to play something interesting to hold the attention of the audience. I am not going to come down too hard on ELP for this because drum solos in particular abounded during the 70s (though not as bad as 80s drum solos  ) but I am just saying that the fact that they were high calibre musicians does not necessarily put what they played above board.
giselle wrote:
One thing we Prog fans often share with any boyband crowd is the willingness to often unfairly criticise on the basis of what we like or dislike, confusing that purely subjective judgement with quality analysis. Don't get me wrong, I've done it too. But it's wrong and unhealthy - and unfair. |
Please do enlighten me then what is an objective "quality analysis" and is there such a thing? You can do all the wrong things and be right and do all the right things and be wrong, that is music. Also, reducing music discussion to the reductive opposites of like or dislike is what causes the problem here. It is more of a case here of one not being quite as good as another or something like that and that only from one viewpoint or one set of viewpoints. If I make some critical points about a band, that does not necessarily mean that I don't like it and perceiving that as dislike or boyband crowd behaviour is what is unhealthy.
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 2755
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Posted: June 26 2011 at 14:17 |
Eärendil wrote:
I'm pretty neutral toward them, but their first four albums all have 4 or above. It's easy to see though how their later stuff brings outrage from prog-heads:
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There used to be a Hitler rule in flame battles on forums. The first person who compared someone to Hitler was generally considered to have lost because he took a way too easy pot shot. Posting the Love Beach album cover should be the PA equivalent.
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
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Points: 18016
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Posted: June 26 2011 at 14:39 |
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giselle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Offline
Points: 466
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Posted: June 26 2011 at 16:16 |
rogerthat wrote:
giselle wrote:
I don't like a lot of what ELP did, but I'm uneasy with the barrage of criticism they receive for their whole body of work. To me they are one of the most important bands defining this genre. My doubts over what they did is to do with their writing and composition more than their playing, which is often of the highest calibre. Lack of taste would be another charge against them, but it must be remembered that long (and now boring) solos were de rigeur for the times, it's all very well to denigrate that now, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. |
I have heard a fair few concerts of the other big prog rock bands. Genesis and Yes often almost reproduced the studio versions (which has its own demerits but that's beside the point here), Gentle Giant made interesting medleys and only deviated a bit here and there from their material (and hey, they were not big league anyway), KC flew off into experimental and challenging improvisations which demanded a certain level of attention from the audience but could not be accused of showboating. ELP clearly did like to include long solos to showcase the technical skills of Emerson and Palmer (and I am not particularly convinced here, additionally, that Palmer was so much better than Bruford that he had to show off full on about it). Whether it was right or wrong to single them out is not a relevant question because in point of fact, they were but it was their propensity to show off that made them an easy target.
I agree with most of that, and it’s fine to point it out, but the merits of the band should be balanced against what (we think) they didn’t do well. It seems to me the criticism the band receives is unbalanced and unreasonable.
Another thing: possessing of high technical skills is one thing and playing interesting leads on stage is another. It is not necessary that the playing of extremely capable musicians is always beyond reproach because they've also got to play something interesting to hold the attention of the audience. I am not going to come down too hard on ELP for this because drum solos in particular abounded during the 70s (though not as bad as 80s drum solos ) but I am just saying that the fact that they were high calibre musicians does not necessarily put what they played above board.
Certainly not, all I’m asking for is a balance.
giselle wrote:
One thing we Prog fans often share with any boyband crowd is the willingness to often unfairly criticise on the basis of what we like or dislike, confusing that purely subjective judgement with quality analysis. Don't get me wrong, I've done it too. But it's wrong and unhealthy - and unfair. |
Please do enlighten me then what is an objective "quality analysis" and is there such a thing? You can do all the wrong things and be right and do all the right things and be wrong, that is music. Also, reducing music discussion to the reductive opposites of like or dislike is what causes the problem here. It is more of a case here of one not being quite as good as another or something like that and that only from one viewpoint or one set of viewpoints. If I make some critical points about a band, that does not necessarily mean that I don't like it and perceiving that as dislike or boyband crowd behaviour is what is unhealthy. |
An objective quality analysis speaks for itself – a judgement made devoid of our personal tastes, likes and dislikes, and yes, there is such a thing. In that regard, you seem to be agreeing when you say that “reductive opposites of like or dislike” cause the problem. And my point about boyband fan attitudes is a generalisation, hopefully not specific to every individual - at least not on a constant basis -on Prog archives (or we really are in trouble). But it’s definitely something we all have to watch and aspire to if we are to be credible as armchair critics and not mere musical bigots.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: June 26 2011 at 20:05 |
giselle wrote:
An objective quality analysis speaks for itself – a judgement made devoid of our personal tastes, likes and dislikes, and yes, there is such a thing. In that regard, you seem to be agreeing when you say that “reductive opposites of like or dislike” cause the problem. And my point about boyband fan attitudes is a generalisation, hopefully not specific to every individual - at least not on a constant basis -on Prog archives (or we really are in trouble). But it’s definitely something we all have to watch and aspire to if we are to be credible as armchair critics and not mere musical bigots. |
That is only an impartial judgment. It still is not and cannot be an objective quality analysis because the worth of music is derived from extremely intangible factors which cannot be quantitatively qualified, hence it is not objective. And this is where the problem starts. People start to presume that critical opinion necessarily stems from dislike and is not an impartial judgment. Now, I have listened to and enjoyed ELP's classic albums over and over but if I am asked what could possibly be the reasons why they are so maligned, I am impartial enough to make a comparison with other prog rock bands and identify where, according to me, did they differ. I don't see that there is anything wrong with that or possibly you have misunderstood the premise of this thread.
Edited by rogerthat - June 26 2011 at 20:05
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brainstormer
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Joined: January 20 2008
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Posted: June 26 2011 at 20:25 |
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ELP played more classical covers, and their own tunes often sounded a lot like classical music.
I always thought that is what isolated them from the other major prog bands. It's true that other
lesser prog bands played classical covers, but people usually don't pick on the smaller acts.
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QuestionableScum
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Edmonton
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Posted: June 26 2011 at 20:52 |
giselle wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
giselle wrote:
I don't like a lot of what ELP did, but I'm uneasy with the barrage of criticism they receive for their whole body of work. To me they are one of the most important bands defining this genre. My doubts over what they did is to do with their writing and composition more than their playing, which is often of the highest calibre. Lack of taste would be another charge against them, but it must be remembered that long (and now boring) solos were de rigeur for the times, it's all very well to denigrate that now, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. |
I have heard a fair few concerts of the other big prog rock bands. Genesis and Yes often almost reproduced the studio versions (which has its own demerits but that's beside the point here), Gentle Giant made interesting medleys and only deviated a bit here and there from their material (and hey, they were not big league anyway), KC flew off into experimental and challenging improvisations which demanded a certain level of attention from the audience but could not be accused of showboating. ELP clearly did like to include long solos to showcase the technical skills of Emerson and Palmer (and I am not particularly convinced here, additionally, that Palmer was so much better than Bruford that he had to show off full on about it). Whether it was right or wrong to single them out is not a relevant question because in point of fact, they were but it was their propensity to show off that made them an easy target.
I agree with most of that, and it’s fine to point it out, but the merits of the band should be balanced against what (we think) they didn’t do well. It seems to me the criticism the band receives is unbalanced and unreasonable.
Another thing: possessing of high technical skills is one thing and playing interesting leads on stage is another. It is not necessary that the playing of extremely capable musicians is always beyond reproach because they've also got to play something interesting to hold the attention of the audience. I am not going to come down too hard on ELP for this because drum solos in particular abounded during the 70s (though not as bad as 80s drum solos ) but I am just saying that the fact that they were high calibre musicians does not necessarily put what they played above board.
Certainly not, all I’m asking for is a balance.
giselle wrote:
One thing we Prog fans often share with any boyband crowd is the willingness to often unfairly criticise on the basis of what we like or dislike, confusing that purely subjective judgement with quality analysis. Don't get me wrong, I've done it too. But it's wrong and unhealthy - and unfair. |
Please do enlighten me then what is an objective "quality analysis" and is there such a thing? You can do all the wrong things and be right and do all the right things and be wrong, that is music. Also, reducing music discussion to the reductive opposites of like or dislike is what causes the problem here. It is more of a case here of one not being quite as good as another or something like that and that only from one viewpoint or one set of viewpoints. If I make some critical points about a band, that does not necessarily mean that I don't like it and perceiving that as dislike or boyband crowd behaviour is what is unhealthy. |
An objective quality analysis speaks for itself – a judgement made devoid of our personal tastes, likes and dislikes, and yes, there is such a thing. In that regard, you seem to be agreeing when you say that “reductive opposites of like or dislike” cause the problem. And my point about boyband fan attitudes is a generalisation, hopefully not specific to every individual - at least not on a constant basis -on Prog archives (or we really are in trouble). But it’s definitely something we all have to watch and aspire to if we are to be credible as armchair critics and not mere musical bigots. |
The problem is that any analysis of music has to be based on deep engagement with the piece, and thus unlike in other matters like inquiry into nature, objectivity cannot be gained through detachment. Detached listening cannot grasp music because it will appear as mere sound. If one listens to a piece in a disengaged or detached way the piece of music is just sound, nothing more. I am not denying that objectivity in analysis is not possible, but rather I am saying that it is difficult to conceptualize how objective analysis of music is possible. For to judge music one has to be engaged with that piece of music, and engaged judgment cannot simply analyse a piece of music based on abstract criteria, but rather must try to comprehend the piece holistically. But this comprehending requires a deeply particularized involvement with the music and thus cannot be reduced or made into a set of rules for judging music.
Edited by QuestionableScum - June 26 2011 at 20:53
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
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Posted: June 26 2011 at 22:48 |
I know he doesn't I was teasing him. Me and Reed Lover go way back. 
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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giselle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
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Points: 466
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 01:59 |
rogerthat wrote:
giselle wrote:
An objective quality analysis speaks for itself – a judgement made devoid of our personal tastes, likes and dislikes, and yes, there is such a thing. In that regard, you seem to be agreeing when you say that “reductive opposites of like or dislike” cause the problem. And my point about boyband fan attitudes is a generalisation, hopefully not specific to every individual - at least not on a constant basis -on Prog archives (or we really are in trouble). But it’s definitely something we all have to watch and aspire to if we are to be credible as armchair critics and not mere musical bigots. |
That is only an impartial judgment. It still is not and cannot be an objective quality analysis because the worth of music is derived from extremely intangible factors which cannot be quantitatively qualified, hence it is not objective. And this is where the problem starts. People start to presume that critical opinion necessarily stems from dislike and is not an impartial judgment. Now, I have listened to and enjoyed ELP's classic albums over and over but if I am asked what could possibly be the reasons why they are so maligned, I am impartial enough to make a comparison with other prog rock bands and identify where, according to me, did they differ. I don't see that there is anything wrong with that or possibly you have misunderstood the premise of this thread.
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Needless to say, I disagree. If you are correct, then there are no such things as objectivity or quality or analysis, only a perceived and allegedly distorted impartiality which somehow for you, differs from objectivity. It’s possible that in our perceived objectivity we are not entirely impartial, but even if that’s all we can hope to achieve, it’s better to stand apart from own whims as much as possible when making such judgements. As for the premise of the thread, my objective quality analysis doesn’t seem to differ much from your impartial identification. I don’t see what the problem is, unless you prefer discussing semantics to dealing with the subject.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 02:29 |
giselle wrote:
Needless to say, I disagree. If you are correct, then there are no such things as objectivity or quality or analysis, only a perceived and allegedly distorted impartiality which somehow for you, differs from objectivity.
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Reductio ad absurdium strikes again. There are, needless to say, such things as objectivity but it is very difficult to apply objective standpoints of judgment to MUSIC. As far as I know, the only thing that is objective in music is what notes are being played. Even technicality, which musicians often claim to be objective, is not necessarily an objective judgment at all. We are only making observations on what we hear of the musicians on record but it is not necessary a musician will always stretch himself to the limits of his technical facility on every song or piece of music of his.
Impartiality the way I understand it in the context of music appreciation is simply to be able to recognize flaws of something we enjoy or merits of something we don't. I love Gentle Giant's music but I recognize that in terms of emotional resonance, they are not the best. That is the kind of impartiality I am urging here. Fans cannot claim their sentiments are hurt by each and everything said about 'their' band, they should try to understand where the other person is coming from and whether he has a point.
giselle wrote:
It’s possible that in our perceived objectivity we are not entirely impartial, but even if that’s all we can hope to achieve, it’s better to stand apart from own whims as much as possible when making such judgements. |
And I put it to you that you are only attempting to infer here that people are unable to stand apart from their whims. You don't and cannot possibly know it to a certainty. Cut all the beating around the bush, what you are trying to say in a nutshell is ELP are one of the most influential prog rock bands so we should think twice, thrice before expressing a critical view of them. I disagree with that, I am sorry but there are no holy cows in music and especially not in rock. My views on the band are carefully considered and hopefully so are those of others commenting on this thread. Take it on its own terms or leave it.
giselle wrote:
As for the premise of the thread, my objective quality analysis doesn’t seem to differ much from your impartial identification. I don’t see what the problem is, unless you prefer discussing semantics to dealing with the subject. |
Of course, it does, starting with that you haven't even defined what your objective quality analysis is all about. What are your parameters of objective quality analysis of music (and how can you possibly have one set of rules for all music appreciation is beyond me)? I'd have to first see if I agree with your chosen criteria and then also with the weights or score given by you in each. Urging people to analyse quality objectively without defining how such is analysed in music at least according to you is going nowhere. By the way, just for kicks I once tried to make an excel chart, scoring bands for compositional talent. It is almost impossible to make it a comprehensive AND completely objective exercise.
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giselle
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Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
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Points: 466
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 04:27 |
rogerthat wrote:
giselle wrote:
Needless to say, I disagree. If you are correct, then there are no such things as objectivity or quality or analysis, only a perceived and allegedly distorted impartiality which somehow for you, differs from objectivity.
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Reductio ad absurdium strikes again. There are, needless to say, such things as objectivity but it is very difficult to apply objective standpoints of judgment to MUSIC. As far as I know, the only thing that is objective in music is what notes are being played. Even technicality, which musicians often claim to be objective, is not necessarily an objective judgment at all. We are only making observations on what we hear of the musicians on record but it is not necessary a musician will always stretch himself to the limits of his technical facility on every song or piece of music of his.
Impartiality the way I understand it in the context of music appreciation is simply to be able to recognize flaws of something we enjoy or merits of something we don't. I love Gentle Giant's music but I recognize that in terms of emotional resonance, they are not the best. That is the kind of impartiality I am urging here. Fans cannot claim their sentiments are hurt by each and everything said about 'their' band, they should try to understand where the other person is coming from and whether he has a point.
The discussion itself is somewhat absurd. Mere semantics, as I suggested. I don’t see any real difference in our points of view, only in the form of words we use to describe them.
giselle wrote:
It’s possible that in our perceived objectivity we are not entirely impartial, but even if that’s all we can hope to achieve, it’s better to stand apart from own whims as much as possible when making such judgements. |
And I put it to you that you are only attempting to infer here that people are unable to stand apart from their whims. You don't and cannot possibly know it to a certainty. Cut all the beating around the bush, what you are trying to say in a nutshell is ELP are one of the most influential prog rock bands so we should think twice, thrice before expressing a critical view of them. I disagree with that, I am sorry but there are no holy cows in music and especially not in rock. My views on the band are carefully considered and hopefully so are those of others commenting on this thread. Take it on its own terms or leave it.
No I’m not inferring that people are often unable to stand apart from their whims, I’m stating it as a fact. And I do know that for a certainty, as the views expressed are often biased totally towards personal taste and delivered as purporting to be fact, not mere opinion. That doesn’t apply to everyone, but sometimes applies to all of us, including me. I’m having to re-state what I’ve already said to make that clear.
From being very pedantic about the terms used in definition, you suddenly veer to drawing wild conclusions out of nothing. I never at any point stated that we shouldn’t offer any criticism of ELP, I already said that there is much to criticise. What I called for is balanced and fair criticism, a totally different thing. I certainly would never want to see any holy cows or untouchables, that would not be healthy at all. You are of course, free to speak for yourself on your thread comments, and you can have views on others, which at times we will wildly disagree on. I find your comments on this instance to be off-centre, inconsequential, and missing the point completely. You can take that or leave it as you please.
As for the premise of the thread, my objective quality analysis doesn't seem to differ much from your impartial identification. I don't see what the problem is, unless you prefer discussing semantics to dealing with the subject.
giselle wrote:
As for the premise of the thread, my objective quality analysis doesn’t seem to differ much from your impartial identification. I don’t see what the problem is, unless you prefer discussing semantics to dealing with the subject. |
Of course, it does, starting with that you haven't even defined what your objective quality analysis is all about. What are your parameters of objective quality analysis of music (and how can you possibly have one set of rules for all music appreciation is beyond me)? I'd have to first see if I agree with your chosen criteria and then also with the weights or score given by you in each. Urging people to analyse quality objectively without defining how such is analysed in music at least according to you is going nowhere. By the way, just for kicks I once tried to make an excel chart, scoring bands for compositional talent. It is almost impossible to make it a comprehensive AND completely objective exercise. |
To begin to define for others how I would conduct (or hope to conduct) an objective quality analysis would be, as I mentioned several times already, discussing definitions instead of dealing with the subject at hand. I feel no need to rationalise my actions or views in depth for you or anyone else. I could write a thesis on it, but it would be boring for everyone, including me. We both choose to see it different ways. That’s fine. I find your statements about your own impartiality and objectivity unconvincing, but it’s your right to state them and my right to disagree. Equally, I don’t much care if you agree or disagree with the parameters I choose or the definitions I use. Unsurprisingly, I also disagree with your view on the possibilities of analysis. I don’t personally think it’s at all impossible to make such a comprehensive and objective exercise.
Finally, I am not even a fan of ELP. I’m simply calling for a balanced view, something I don’t believe the band receives at present.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 04:53 |
giselle wrote:
The discussion itself is somewhat absurd. Mere semantics, as I suggested. I don’t see any real difference in our points of view, only in the form of words we use to describe them.
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Sorry, I don't see the difference between subjectivity and objectivity as semantic. By emphasising the importance of impartiality, I am on the other hand distinguishing between subjectivity and bias/prejudice. Every subjective opinion is not necessarily biased or prejudicial which is what you seem to be driving at in the next para. A subjective opinion is based on impressions and perceptions but it is important that they be consistent with the person's general perceptions of music. "Objective within a subjective viewpoint" in other words.
giselle wrote:
No I’m not inferring that people are often unable to stand apart from their whims, I’m stating it as a fact. And I do know that for a certainty, as the views expressed are often biased totally towards personal taste and delivered as purporting to be fact, not mere opinion. That doesn’t apply to everyone, but sometimes applies to all of us, including me. I’m having to re-state what I’ve already said to make that clear. |
Eh? Any qualitiative statement about a band is an opinion. It does not become fact merely because the person omitted to say "in my opinion" because, in my opinion ,it should not even be necessary to say so expressly each and every time. The only objective element of music is the notes and sounds and what we make it is, by implication, heavily dependent on our perceptions of music. The sooner listeners learn to live with this reality, the better.
giselle wrote:
What I called for is balanced and fair criticism, a totally different thing. I certainly would never want to see any holy cows or untouchables, that would not be healthy at all. |
In that case, please state what is it that you find it to be a biased and unfair criticism of ELP instead of firing a general dart at Prog rock Inc. Otherwise, your argument would bound to be perceived as a holy cow syndrome.
giselle wrote:
To begin to define for others how I would conduct (or hope to conduct) an objective quality analysis would be, as I mentioned several times already, discussing definitions instead of dealing with the subject at hand. I feel no need to rationalise my actions or views in depth for you or anyone else. I could write a thesis on it, but it would be boring for everyone, including me. |
So you prefer it remains a nebulous "objective" analysis that no one knows about? I am really asking you this out of curiosity because I have never seen anybody successfully argue for how the quality of a piece of music could be objectively determined. Please consider that it is not objective unless everybody agrees with the judgment. If I signed on a dotted line, I am bound by contractual obligation to perform certain acts as per the fine print and such obligation can be enforced in court. THAT is objective. Merely you satisfying yourself that you conducted the analysis without prejudice in your perception is not enough to call it objective.
giselle wrote:
Unsurprisingly, I also disagree with your view on the possibilities of analysis. I don’t personally think it’s at all impossible to make such a comprehensive and objective exercise. |
That could only be if you apply limited and inaccurate parameters. And even the weightage of parameters moves depending on the music. Take an element like dynamics. It is far more important in jazz than in heavy rock. You obviously then can't assign marks based on the level of dynamics in the same manner for a jazz group and a heavy rock band. So you'd have to get into what level of dynamics qualitatively is desirable in heavy rock. And so on...there's no end to how much you can drill down the details and find small but significant aspects to weigh...if you choose to do an objective quality analysis.
giselle wrote:
Finally, I am not even a fan of ELP. I’m simply calling for a balanced view, something I don’t believe the band receives at present. |
So, I repeat, what is the basis for that belief? And balanced view from whom, general rock music crowd or prog rock fans? Why? Without these clarifications to such a statement, it is a shot in the dark.
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Warthur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 06 2008
Location: London, UK
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 05:08 |
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
There used to be a Hitler rule in flame battles on forums. The first person who compared someone to Hitler was generally considered to have lost because he took a way too easy pot shot. Posting the Love Beach album cover should be the PA equivalent. |
That's probably fair. Holding Love Beach against ELP is like judging Lou Reed on the basis of Metal Machine Music - it completely ignores why the album exists in the first place (namely, as a means of getting the group out of their contract as quickly and as painlessly as possible).
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rogerthat
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 05:13 |
Warthur wrote:
That's probably fair. Holding Love Beach against ELP is like judging Lou Reed on the basis of Metal Machine Music - it completely ignores why the album exists in the first place (namely, as a means of getting the group out of their contract as quickly and as painlessly as possible). |
Aside from all, Love Beach the album is not as bad as the artwork and is not the worst example of a prog rock band gone astray either.
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giselle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 06:39 |
rogerthat wrote:
giselle wrote:
The discussion itself is somewhat absurd. Mere semantics, as I suggested. I don’t see any real difference in our points of view, only in the form of words we use to describe them.
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Sorry, I don't see the difference between subjectivity and objectivity as semantic. By emphasising the importance of impartiality, I am on the other hand distinguishing between subjectivity and bias/prejudice. Every subjective opinion is not necessarily biased or prejudicial which is what you seem to be driving at in the next para. A subjective opinion is based on impressions and perceptions but it is important that they be consistent with the person's general perceptions of music. "Objective within a subjective viewpoint" in other words.
Equally sorry, but I totally disagree. And your obsession with nit-picking your way through these very semantics detracts totally from any meaningful discussion of the subject matter. I think you just enjoy digging for truffles to chew on, but you really should remove the paper first.
giselle wrote:
No I’m not inferring that people are often unable to stand apart from their whims, I’m stating it as a fact. And I do know that for a certainty, as the views expressed are often biased totally towards personal taste and delivered as purporting to be fact, not mere opinion. That doesn’t apply to everyone, but sometimes applies to all of us, including me. I’m having to re-state what I’ve already said to make that clear. |
Eh? Any qualitiative statement about a band is an opinion. It does not become fact merely because the person omitted to say "in my opinion" because, in my opinion ,it should not even be necessary to say so expressly each and every time. The only objective element of music is the notes and sounds and what we make it is, by implication, heavily dependent on our perceptions of music. The sooner listeners learn to live with this reality, the better.
That’s your opinion, it isn’t mine. I can live with anything I perceive to be a reality. The thing is to strive to see what that reality is. It doesn’t mean that the outcome is perfect by any means.
giselle wrote:
What I called for is balanced and fair criticism, a totally different thing. I certainly would never want to see any holy cows or untouchables, that would not be healthy at all. |
In that case, please state what is it that you find it to be a biased and unfair criticism of ELP instead of firing a general dart at Prog rock Inc. Otherwise, your argument would bound to be perceived as a holy cow syndrome.
giselle wrote:
To begin to define for others how I would conduct (or hope to conduct) an objective quality analysis would be, as I mentioned several times already, discussing definitions instead of dealing with the subject at hand. I feel no need to rationalise my actions or views in depth for you or anyone else. I could write a thesis on it, but it would be boring for everyone, including me. |
So you prefer it remains a nebulous "objective" analysis that no one knows about? I am really asking you this out of curiosity because I have never seen anybody successfully argue for how the quality of a piece of music could be objectively determined. Please consider that it is not objective unless everybody agrees with the judgment. If I signed on a dotted line, I am bound by contractual obligation to perform certain acts as per the fine print and such obligation can be enforced in court. THAT is objective. Merely you satisfying yourself that you conducted the analysis without prejudice in your perception is not enough to call it objective.
Nebulous is fine, especially as I don’t feel the need to justify myself in a discussion about generalities. I doubt that you would be convinced by anyone on this topic, perhaps because, as you’ve already said, you don’t think you’re capable of doing it yourself. Personally I’m perfectly happy with my definitions as they are.
giselle wrote:
Unsurprisingly, I also disagree with your view on the possibilities of analysis. I don’t personally think it’s at all impossible to make such a comprehensive and objective exercise. |
That could only be if you apply limited and inaccurate parameters. And even the weightage of parameters moves depending on the music. Take an element like dynamics. It is far more important in jazz than in heavy rock. You obviously then can't assign marks based on the level of dynamics in the same manner for a jazz group and a heavy rock band. So you'd have to get into what level of dynamics qualitatively is desirable in heavy rock. And so on...there's no end to how much you can drill down the details and find small but significant aspects to weigh...if you choose to do an objective quality analysis.
I don’t believe the parameters would be limited and inaccurate. I take your point about how you would apply the criteria, but that answers itself by the very question being raised. I think it would be an interesting exercise. But little to do with a general discussion about ELP.
giselle wrote:
Finally, I am not even a fan of ELP. I’m simply calling for a balanced view, something I don’t believe the band receives at present. |
So, I repeat, what is the basis for that belief? And balanced view from whom, general rock music crowd or prog rock fans? Why? Without these clarifications to such a statement, it is a shot in the dark. |
There would not even be a Prog archives without a band like ELP, who, along with King Crimson and Yes, define the genre more than anyone. A balanced view from everyone and anyone who comments. It’s not a shot in the dark if you stop switching off and on the lights.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 07:07 |
giselle wrote:
Equally sorry, but I totally disagree. And your obsession with nit-picking your way through these very semantics detracts totally from any meaningful discussion of the subject matter. I think you just enjoy digging for truffles to chew on, but you really should remove the paper first. |
Yeah, right, meaningful discussion by artificially imposing objectivity in a parameter where objective judement is not practicable? It is unfortunate that you choose to browbeat it as semantics because it is very relevant. If you suggest that people should apply objective quality analysis, you have to define what that means (or, alternatively, not assume that people are not doing so). If it is indeed an objective exercise, it should not be very difficult to establish so your reluctance to do is quite baffling.
giselle wrote:
That’s your opinion, it isn’t mine. I can live with anything I perceive to be a reality. The thing is to strive to see what that reality is. It doesn’t mean that the outcome is perfect by any means. |
You cannot expect what I stated above with respect to opinions to be explained to you everytime merely because it is not your perception.  The reality is that people express opinions about bands with absolutely no intention of passing it for fact and you should not have to strive hard to take cognizance of said reality. So, your allegation then is without basis.
giselle wrote:
I don’t believe the parameters would be limited and inaccurate. I take your point about how you would apply the criteria, but that answers itself by the very question being raised. I think it would be an interesting exercise. But little to do with a general discussion about ELP. |
If you propose that objective quality analysis should be done with respect to ELP (with the implicit suggestion that because this is not done so, they get a bad rap), you must establish how an objective analysis would accrue more respect to them and less harsh opinions...possibly by doing an analysis of your own and putting forth the results. Otherwise, you are getting nowhere with what you have suggested.
giselle wrote:
There would not even be a Prog archives without a band like ELP, who, along with King Crimson and Yes, define the genre more than anyone. A balanced view from everyone and anyone who comments. It’s not a shot in the dark if you stop switching off and on the lights. |
Influence does not equate or approximate indispensability. It is not necessary that bands influenced by ELP would do EVERYTHING that they did and should therefore attract the same criticisms. Besides, it's prog rock, so bands do diverge heavily even from their chief influences. Not as if it's thrash metal where bashing Metallica soundlly and heaping superlatives on Testament would make no sense. Which is not even the case with ELP as the average ratings on PA bear out. A Tarkus just doesn't have such a high rating as Red or SEBTP. I don't see that by dint of being one of the important prog rock bands alone, they earn that.
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giselle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Offline
Points: 466
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 07:23 |
rogerthat wrote:
[
Yeah, right, meaningful discussion by artificially imposing objectivity in a parameter where objective judement is not practicable? It is unfortunate that you choose to browbeat it as semantics because it is very relevant. If you suggest that people should apply objective quality analysis, you have to define what that means (or, alternatively, not assume that people are not doing so). If it is indeed an objective exercise, it should not be very difficult to establish so your reluctance to do is quite baffling.
It’s not artificial, and objective judgement is practicable. Only not in your eyes. I choose to browbeat it because it isn’t at all relevant. No, I don’t have to define what that means, it should be perfectly obvious, unless you keep looking under stones, then under the stones you find there as you do. It’s only baffling to you because you only want to believe in something you see written in stone. Even then, you’d be pedantic about that.
You cannot expect what I stated above with respect to opinions to be explained to you everytime merely because it is not your perception. The reality is that people express opinions about bands with absolutely no intention of passing it for fact and you should not have to strive hard to take cognizance of said reality. So, your allegation then is without basis.
People do sometimes express opinions that aren’t intended to be fact, and that’s fine. I have no gripes about that at all. But there is plenty of evidence that the opposite happens, and if you don’t think so, you’re either blind or being awkward for the sake it (which seems quite likely at the moment).
If you propose that objective quality analysis should be done with respect to ELP (with the implicit suggestion that because this is not done so, they get a bad rap), you must establish how an objective analysis would accrue more respect to them and less harsh opinions...possibly by doing an analysis of your own and putting forth the results. Otherwise, you are getting nowhere with what you have suggested.
If I was to write a full critique on ELP, then perhaps all that would come into it. But this isn’t the time or place for it, nor is it a serious enough discussion to warrant it, certainly not for one disgruntled beachcomber. It’s fine that you feel unhappy with my comment, I certainly don’t feel it’s going nowhere. For one thing, it’s kept you occupied for a while till you find something else to grizzle at. And I’m content to have said my piece, of which I would not subtract a word.
Influence does not equate or approximate indispensability. It is not necessary that bands influenced by ELP would do EVERYTHING that they did and should therefore attract the same criticisms. Besides, it's prog rock, so bands do diverge heavily even from their chief influences. Not as if it's thrash metal where bashing Metallica soundlly and heaping superlatives on Testament would make no sense. Which is not even the case with ELP as the average ratings on PA bear out. A Tarkus just doesn't have such a high rating as Red or SEBTP. I don't see that by dint of being one of the important prog rock bands alone, they earn that. |
They have earned the right to be taken seriously, especially by people who wouldn’t even have a forum in the first place but for their influence. I never at any time suggested it made them immune to criticism or indispensible in some way. You’re making mountains out of molehills for the sake of it. I think it’s best to leave this matter there, as we are never going to agree, it’s becoming boring for us, never mind everyone else, and in any case, I don’t see what any of this has to do with the price of fish.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 07:41 |
giselle wrote:
It’s not artificial, and objective judgement is practicable. Only not in your eyes. |
Ah, a subjective objectivity, this gets even better! Never have I seen a more evasive defence of objectivity in music.
giselle wrote:
People do sometimes express opinions that aren’t intended to be fact, and that’s fine. I have no gripes about that at all. But there is plenty of evidence that the opposite happens, and if you don’t think so, you’re either blind or being awkward for the sake it (which seems quite likely at the moment).
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I'll be pointed and ask you where on this thread do you see evidence of that with regard to ELP. I have only asked you repeatedly to make pointed replies instead of firing blank darts through sweeping generalizations. Resorting to such rhetoric to wriggle out of it is not highly impressive.
giselle wrote:
They have earned the right to be taken seriously, especially by people who wouldn’t even have a forum in the first place but for their influence. I never at any time suggested it made them immune to criticism or indispensible in some way. |
And on what grounds do you feel that they are not taken seriously in a prog forum (which is a serious statement to make, by the way)? People generally dock the fifth star on the grounds that their albums have too many non essential songs. Irrespective of whether I agree with such an opinion, it is a valid reason to offer. There are some people who call them w**kers but then there are those who call Wetton-KC noise too. That does not reflect the view of progheads in general.
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giselle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Offline
Points: 466
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 07:46 |
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Nothing you've said is convincing to me either. My views are almost diametrically opposed to yours, I disagree with almost everything you've said in your last post and many of the posts before that. We could argue till doomsday and we'd never agree. On that basis, I already said we should leave it where it is, as going further will only lead us into trouble with the prog authorities.
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