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SteveG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2016 at 13:52
^Nice, as it is an appreciation thread. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2016 at 04:28
I meant the general approach of the band rather than Camp in particular which is why I had also mentioned Tout. And I also said minor problem so it was again just in comparison to their more illustrious contemporaries. As such, no, it's not an issue that turns me off their music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2016 at 04:11
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

and Steve, great review of Renaissance Illusion
Thanks Ken! It doesn't come close to your own great review, but helping to get the word out to Renaissance fans about this little known gem was my main motivation for doing another review.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2016 at 04:08
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
Regarding Jon Camp as a week link maybe in response for him trying to flesh out the late Michael Dunford's limited picking skills. Imagine If the Mach 2 Renaissance had an acoustic guitarist of the caliber of the late John Renbourn. Would that have prompted Camp to play contrapuntal and branch out?

Wait a sec, I never said Camp was a weak link for Renaissance.  He was most definitely an asset and his thunderous bass beefed up their sound, which  may have otherwise come across as plodding (and seems to on Grandine Il Vento). Since the question of comparing Camp to other bassists came up, I gave my own perspective where I tend to also look at their compositional inputs and not just flat out chops.  I think rather than filling in for Dunford, Camp was filling in to some extent for the absence of electric guitar.  Be that as it may, I don't think adventurous harmony was something they were really after.  From what I have gleaned from interviews - and feel free to correct me there - they were all fans of classical music and, MAYBE, fans of the sounds of classical itself more than its complexity.  Where other prog rock bands tried to bridge rock and the complexity of classical and jazz, Renaissance were trying to marry the sound of classical music with rock.  Which is an attractive sound for what it's worth but at some point I'd have liked for them to have moved deeper into experimentation.  Judging from the live extended solos that Camp or Tout used to play in shows, I suspect that they just did not think about their music on those lines.
Forgive me for paraphrasing your post but you did say: "That has kind of been the (minor) problem for this band, as much as I like them." So, it seems like Camp has been a weak link to you. Yes, it's reasonable to assume that he was making up for the lack of an electric lead guitar. However, we'll never know unless he makes a statement about it and I don't see that as forthcoming anytime soon, if ever. Regardless, his bass playing is a hallmark of the Mach 2 Renaissance sound. I happen to love it, but to each his own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 19:19
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

^I think you have made a great point.  I always thought that I should love classical music but I think it's complexity and coldness (for me) always got in the way.  Renaissance seemed to offer a warmer more romantic vision, that still sounds classical to untrained ears like mine.  I found out that not all classical fans dug that vision when I tried to play Renaissance for them.  They laughed if you could believe it, made fun of it all the way.  BTW, I know I played them Trip to the Fair along with a few others. 
 
Not a lot of classical music works for me either. I love Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, Bach's Brandenburg concerto, Vivaldi's Four Seasons among a few others. Renaissance most reminds me of the old Hindi film music of the 50s and the 60s. They too used a lot of orchestral instruments and the great Lata Mangeshkar who sang many of those classics also had a wonderful voice like Annie. I wonder if Annie's heard her songs; she once professed to love Indian music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 18:20
and Steve, great review of Renaissance Illusion
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 18:19
^I think you have made a great point.  I always thought that I should love classical music but I think it's complexity and coldness (for me) always got in the way.  Renaissance seemed to offer a warmer more romantic vision, that still sounds classical to untrained ears like mine.  I found out that not all classical fans dug that vision when I tried to play Renaissance for them.  They laughed if you could believe it, made fun of it all the way.  BTW, I know I played them Trip to the Fair along with a few others. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 17:51
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
Regarding Jon Camp as a week link maybe in response for him trying to flesh out the late Michael Dunford's limited picking skills. Imagine If the Mach 2 Renaissance had an acoustic guitarist of the caliber of the late John Renbourn. Would that have prompted Camp to play contrapuntal and branch out?

Wait a sec, I never said Camp was a weak link for Renaissance.  He was most definitely an asset and his thunderous bass beefed up their sound, which  may have otherwise come across as plodding (and seems to on Grandine Il Vento). Since the question of comparing Camp to other bassists came up, I gave my own perspective where I tend to also look at their compositional inputs and not just flat out chops.  I think rather than filling in for Dunford, Camp was filling in to some extent for the absence of electric guitar.  Be that as it may, I don't think adventurous harmony was something they were really after.  From what I have gleaned from interviews - and feel free to correct me there - they were all fans of classical music and, MAYBE, fans of the sounds of classical itself more than its complexity.  Where other prog rock bands tried to bridge rock and the complexity of classical and jazz, Renaissance were trying to marry the sound of classical music with rock.  Which is an attractive sound for what it's worth but at some point I'd have liked for them to have moved deeper into experimentation.  Judging from the live extended solos that Camp or Tout used to play in shows, I suspect that they just did not think about their music on those lines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 13:54
^Thanks Ken! I'm always happy to chew the fat when it comes to Renaissance, be it the Mach 1 or 2 line ups, and McCarty's solo reincarnations of Renaissance and Illusion.
 
Just to be clear, I feel that Mick Dunford was quite adequate with his marvelous 12 string strumming and 6 string arpeggios. I forgot about The Sisters, and the wonderful gut string playing by Mick. I wish he would have done more lead playing after that, but sadly, he stayed in the background where he might have felt more comfortable. He seemed like the quiet type. From the Mach 2 line up, I only had a chance to speak briefly with Annie, Terry Sullivan and the late great John Tout, backstage at a NYC concert in the late 70's. I spied Camp chatting up some girls while Dunford was literally by himself back in the corridor leading to the dressing rooms! 


Edited by SteveG - December 01 2016 at 15:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 13:25
^ Hey Steve, so glad you are involved in this thread.  There can never be too much attention given to Renaissance.  Clap
I agree about Renaissance Illusion being a great album.  I also enjoy McCarty's "Out of the Dark" that came before Renaissance Illusion very much, while "Sitting on the Top of Time" that came after it is pretty good as well.  He has stuck to his hippy philosophizing in a way that seems authentic to me.

Dunford did play a fine spanish guitar solo on "The Sisters".  It's funny, I never thought about his limited skills, and assumed that the way he played was just what the doctor ordered for Renaissance.  But given the absence of electric guitar in all of their core albums, a more flashy acoustic guitarist might have been a good idea.  I doubt it would have net them more fans though




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 12:25
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Perhaps it wasn't to his taste and he felt like that type of playing didn't serve the songs. Just a guess.

Or that he didn't have the imagination because coming up with adventurous chords is more about composition than technical chops.
Yes, he wasn't thinking outside of the box. However, I said he was impressively melodic.
 I never said that he was a genius. Wink 

That has kind of been the (minor) problem for this band, as much as I like them.  It's also why I prefer their live compilations for the most part.  They did (and do) very well in bringing the songs to life in concert. 
I forgot this thread until just listening to Jim McCarty's Renaissance/Illusion Through the Fire album, which is excellent.
 
Regarding Jon Camp as a week link maybe in response for him trying to flesh out the late Michael Dunford's limited picking skills. Imagine If the Mach 2 Renaissance had an acoustic guitarist of the caliber of the late John Renbourn. Would that have prompted Camp to play contrapuntal and branch out?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2016 at 08:59
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

^ you're right.  I was meaning they didn't go from being simple to complex, so that you suddenly heard Camp doing different melodies with the bass.  They did make a lot of changes within the melodic framework.  I don't agree that Sceherazade was poppier - even Vultures Fly High seems more straight on rock than pop.  In any case it's very refreshing much as Northern Lights was on ASFAS.



Vultures has the rock like groove but not the hard edge of a Black Flame.  I don't mean pop in a commercial/pejorative sense anyway; more like by elimination it is the only slot left.  By Scheherazade, they are no longer very folk and not much of rock is left in the mix either so pop-classical seems to be a good fit.  I'd have liked it if they had done more pop-classical or just outright pop songs, WITHOUT badly wanting another Northern Lights, which is what ruined their attempts to do so from AZD onwards.  Northern Lights just happened, they didn't try to write a smash hit that would get them to Top of the Pops and that is why it works. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2016 at 08:49
^ you're right.  I was meaning they didn't go from being simple to complex, so that you suddenly heard Camp doing different melodies with the bass.  They did make a lot of changes within the melodic framework.  I don't agree that Sceherazade was poppier - even Vultures Fly High seems more straight on rock than pop.  In any case it's very refreshing much as Northern Lights was on ASFAS.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2016 at 08:26
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

interesting discussion.  I think that to some extent Renaissance is Renaissance because they weren't especially outside the box, which made them more accessible to certain fans like myself who don't have a strong musical background but can nonetheless feel comfortable with the artiness of their sound and their emphasis on grandeur and melody.  Yet they were very unique.  They found their groove and pretty much stayed with it at least through "Song for All Seasons", even if that album did show a definite progression in its boldness

Well, compared to say a Symphony X of today (or even Camel back in the day), Renaissance did change from album to album.  Prologue was anyway a mishmash and the band hadn't quite found their niche.  Ashes leaned strongly towards folk and at this point there was only limited use of orchestra.  It was with Turn of the Cards that the quintessential Ren sound was established.  Even so, there are differences between Cards/Sch/Novella. Cards had more of a rock sound to the extent that Renaissance ever resembled rock music, I mean rock with growling electric guitars and all.  Scheherazade was more pop (a friend who never ever got into them compared Vultures Fly High to ABBA!).  Novella brought back guitar (not electric) in a big way to their sound.  SFAS differs from all of these in no small part due to the arrangements of Louis Clark which were more bombastic and dynamic with lots of changes and doing away to some extent with their earlier slow and stately character. 

I don't think even Genesis changed a whole lot more from Trespass through to Wind and Wuthering than Ren from Prologue to SFAS.  It's harder for a band with a strong melodic character in their sound to change without losing too many of their fans. Yes did manage it but not many other of the melodic bands did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2016 at 08:02
interesting discussion.  I think that to some extent Renaissance is Renaissance because they weren't especially outside the box, which made them more accessible to certain fans like myself who don't have a strong musical background but can nonetheless feel comfortable with the artiness of their sound and their emphasis on grandeur and melody.  Yet they were very unique.  They found their groove and pretty much stayed with it at least through "Song for All Seasons", even if that album did show a definite progression in its boldness
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2016 at 07:52
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Perhaps it wasn't to his taste and he felt like that type of playing didn't serve the songs. Just a guess.

Or that he didn't have the imagination because coming up with adventurous chords is more about composition than technical chops.
Yes, he wasn't thinking outside of the box. However, I said he was impressively melodic.
 I never said that he was a genius. Wink 

That has kind of been the (minor) problem for this band, as much as I like them.  It's also why I prefer their live compilations for the most part.  They did (and do) very well in bringing the songs to life in concert. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2016 at 07:22
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Perhaps it wasn't to his taste and he felt like that type of playing didn't serve the songs. Just a guess.

Or that he didn't have the imagination because coming up with adventurous chords is more about composition than technical chops.
Yes, he wasn't thinking outside of the box. However, I said he was impressively melodic.
 I never said that he was a genius. Wink 

Edited by SteveG - November 28 2016 at 07:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2016 at 04:58
Another reason I can think of - as I listen to Can You Hear Me - is that because Renaissance had to perform their tracks without an orchestra on most of their shows, maybe Camp elected to play melodies rather than counter-melodies because they would need to beef up their sound live and his bass playing sort of filled in for say the cello's parts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2016 at 04:34
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Perhaps it wasn't to his taste and he felt like that type of playing didn't serve the songs. Just a guess.

Or that he didn't have the imagination because coming up with adventurous chords is more about composition than technical chops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2016 at 04:29
^Perhaps it wasn't to his taste and he felt like that type of playing didn't serve the songs. Just a guess.
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