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The Renaissance Zone |
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Rednight 
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Joined: January 18 2014 Location: Mar Vista, CA Status: Offline Points: 4812 |
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 Posted: November 08 2016 at 12:31 |
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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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kenethlevine
Special Collaborator 
Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 9219 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 09:17 |
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while I don't argue that they lost their way in the 80s, I think they were doomed no matter what they did, stay the course or go pop. I actually think Camera Camera was a good album for its time, and Time Line had its moments too. But "Songs from Renaissance Days" showed that they weren't up to much after they lost their record deal.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 08:42 |
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Meltdowner
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 25 2013 Location: Portugal Status: Offline Points: 10291 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 08:09 |
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 That's indeed serious. I remember she said at the concert something like "we lost our way back in the 80's, I must have been high"
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 07:42 |
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Yeah the three long tracks do sound better live.
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kenethlevine
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Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 9219 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 07:28 |
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I wasn't wild on Tuscany, but I suppose I should give it another chance. I thought "Dear Landseer" was really good, along with a couple of others. But honestly I preferred "The Other Woman" because it doesn't sound like Renaissance and doesn't try to. Well except for the superb "Somewhere west of here". And Grandine Il Vento is better than both though still not great. Hearing several of the tracks done so well live, and not seeming out of place amongst the 1970s epics, has helped my view
Edited by kenethlevine - November 08 2016 at 07:29 |
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 07:26 |
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Not my cuppa. I'd prefer Grandine Il Vento to it and I don't like that one very much either, so... In Tuscany, they really lacked the confidence to go prog. I don't completely blame them but it all amounted to a middling album.
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Aussie-Byrd-Brother
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 12 2011 Location: Melb, Australia Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 07:23 |
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Speaking of `Tuscany', what is everyone's opinion on it? I just noticed it on my CD shelf earlier tonight and realised I haven't played it in years (probably since it came out)...I'm sure it was a very respectable album from them?
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 07:18 |
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Ah, no, she will probably go wild if you do. As for Jon Camp, has been doing sessions work. Latest was Air & Numbers (The Lovely Intangibles) but it doesn't say which track: Have browsed through his FB posts too, prying for any hints as to what actually transpired in 2009. Negative.
I think you are talking about the interview John Tout gave to one David Owen in 1998? I have read it before. The thing is, it would have been simple enough for the band to just tell everyone that Tout wanted a hiatus from the band because of this situation and they were letting him go. That was not the official version; hence my suspicion that there's more to it than meets the eye. For one thing, Sullivan may have got back somewhere in the 80s (especially after they lost Harrison too), but he didn't either. Heck, sticking only to official versions, there is no reason Jon Camp wouldn't have made it back to the band at the time of Tuscany itself. Neither he wants to talk about what really happened nor did Michael Dunford when he was alive. Annie said flat out that she doesn't get along with him anymore, to the extent that "we'd probably kill each other". Typical Annie hyperbole, that, but what happened that there is so much friction between the two is not known to us or rather anybody who hasn't managed to pry it out from either through personal/fb interactions. Camp is just being polite in making it out as if he has no issues at all and I absolutely respect that but it's not the truth and the truth is probably never going to come out.
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kenethlevine
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Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 9219 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 07:12 |
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Side 2 of the original vinyl is IMO the strongest side of any Renaissance album My favorite is "A Song for All Seasons", because of the way it flows together, everything culminating in the flourish at the end of the title track, as well as the crystalline production and liveliness. It's also somehow optimistic without being cloying. It wasn't always my favourite. I remember being quite sick once after a generally difficult period, so I was emotionally fragile as well, and I listened to the entire SFAS album and immediately felt better. From then on it became a very special album for me.
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Tom Ozric
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Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15926 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 00:57 |
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Oh, Turn Of The Cards is THE ONE for me, things like Black Flame and Cold Is Being (yeah, there is beauty in melancholia).........have the power to move planets off their axis'..........
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fudgenuts64
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Joined: January 17 2013 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 00:52 |
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Re: to most everyone above me -
I always felt Azure d'Or got a bit of a bad reputation overall. I wasn't fond of it when I first got into the band but after playing the classic albums so much I gave it more of a chance. I felt the compositions were strong on the whole and really it was mostly more of A Song for All Seasons without the epics. I particularly love The Flood at Lyons and Jon's bass still dominates the record and has some of the catchiest lines in the Renaissance catalog (Jekyll and Hyde, The Winter Tree, Flood at Lyons...) I will say Jon might personally be the most important member of the band for me in terms of influence on the grounds he made me appreciate the bass like nobody else before did. And I as well always liked his singing quite a lot. I read once that after Jon left in 1985 there was some serious animosity towards him from Annie and Michael which would explain why he was the only member not present on Tuscany but things must have been better around the time a full reunion was planned in 2009 but never came to past. If I ever get the chance I'd like to ask Annie herself but I almost feel like it might be impolite, however, I can say I would really love to know what Jon is up to and if his work with Cathedrale will ever be released. And to John Tout leaving - his sister passed away during the tour and hence why he left. From 1980 to the turn of the century he struggled with depression and the inability to play piano due to it having an incredible emotional bond to his sister actually. I can't remember off the top of my head how he finally came around but you should be able to find something on Google where he explains it in more detail. It's all rather sad honestly. As for myself, I know they're playing in Buffalo later tonight and I'd love to be there but I can't quite make it out there right now. I do hope I'm able to catch them once before Annie calls it quits. Renaissance might not be the most important band of my formative years but certainly a hugely influential one that happens to still be existing in some form. I'll never forget the first time I learned the opening bit to Can You Understand on piano.
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 00:41 |
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Love Prologue through to SFAS and thereafter only select songs. Can't decide which of SFAS and Novella is my favourite of all, probably SFAS.
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Tom Ozric
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Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15926 |
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Posted: November 08 2016 at 00:12 |
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I love ASFAS. In fact, everything from Prologue through Time Line sits fine with me. And it's rare to have such a consistent (for my tastes) output by a band.
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kenethlevine
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Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 9219 |
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Posted: November 07 2016 at 21:23 |
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I checked my CD and the lyric sheet doesn't indicate. The back cover brought back memories; to my 19 year old eyes it was hard enough to read on the LP, with the red print over the seasonal photo, but it's utterly impossible on the CD for these old eyes. I'll have to look for a magnifying glass, but not sure it will reveal who actually wrote the lyrics. I just thought that, given that Dunford tended to be the music composer, that when Thatcher's role was reduced, Camp might have taken the mantle edit...Camp is listed as the only writer! Edited by kenethlevine - November 07 2016 at 21:36 |
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Posted: November 07 2016 at 21:04 |
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I'd really have to check with my CD but if indeed the lyrics of Kindness were written by Camp that would make it very interesting. She is love the tape came out at the wrong speed, effing up the key and it was impossible for Annie to sing it so finally it was down to Camp. Re Kindness I don't know what Camp's version of the events is but according to Annie she fell ill on the day of the recording and Camp did the vocal track instead.
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kenethlevine
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Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 9219 |
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Posted: November 07 2016 at 18:16 |
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I believe Jon was lyricist for most of ASFAS, as Betty Thatcher was limited to the last 3 tracks. Or perhaps he and Dunford split lyric duty? In any case they are pretty compatible with the band's gravitas. I had heard that Annie was supposed to sing "She is Love" but it was in the wrong key for her, but had not heard that about Kindness. I did hear that Jon played just about everything on the track, and it's likely they never did it live. I wasn't trying to suggest that the lyrics of Kindness were written about the relationshuip between Camp and Renaissance, just that they are well written enough and resonate enough to be applicable to different situations that one encounters in life
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Posted: November 07 2016 at 17:57 |
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Well, he has a passable enough voice, I give that. But no modulation, nothing that would allow him to hold his own as a lead vocalist. I say this because he used to fancy himself as a lead singer and there he was just way off base. He had absolutely no business comparing/equating his singing with Annie's.
That is a very interesting interpretation because I believe most of the lyrics for Song for all seasons were written about Roy Wood. This song was meant to be sung by Annie and she missed the recording due to sickness so Camp decided to sing it anyway. Somebody who claimed to be a doctor said on youtube that he had had Camp over as a patient and he referred to Annie as his wife!! I wonder if some of the resentment he seemed to have at times over Annie's popularity arose out of unrequited love. It's a long shot but it might explain why he sneaked in to record Kindness at the End all by himself. Might also explain why Annie absolutely won't have him back.
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Posted: November 07 2016 at 17:51 |
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Get Live at Albert Hall if you can find it. It is or at least was available as a download on concert vault. Ocean Gypsy is the only classic that the Albert Hall discs are missing and then the Carnegie Hall performance of that track isn't particularly amazing. If you caught them at Portugal last year, you probably heard a better performance right there.
George Starostin's website had said that Tout was simply frustrated with the direction taken by the band and walked off stage in the middle of a performance just like that to register his protest. He quit more than the band firing him and Sullivan joined him. I wonder if Annie regrets not joining them in the rebellion for then Dunford and Camp would have been forced to listen to them. She has professed to not enjoying the albums from AZD onwards and it's not a matter of her say so, she couldn't really own these songs live the way she had done with previous albums.
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Meltdowner
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Posted: November 07 2016 at 14:30 |
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I'll have to give it another listen as well.
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Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:
