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SteveG 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
 Posted: April 11 2015 at 12:17 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 11 2015 at 12:13 |
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: April 11 2015 at 11:41 |
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By the way, it should be noted that the avantgarde always easier could be born from "ugly" than from "nice"; more avant "effects" are coming from "chaos" than from an "order" (structure). However, there is not any strictly rule from where avantgarde comes. So many people wrongly equate the avantgarde with ("ugly") abstractions. In fact, prog artists are like nomads, moving in different directions. Some in this wandering remain in the abstract, while others again and again reintroducing emotion in their (Art) music.
Edited by Svetonio - April 11 2015 at 11:41 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
Posted: April 11 2015 at 11:32 |
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WeepingElf
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 18 2013 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 373 |
Posted: April 11 2015 at 11:08 |
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Fair. Progressive rock was not a reaction against anything. It was an attempt to develop rock as it was in the late 60s further. They did not say, "rock as it is now is bullsh*t", they said "rock as it is now can do more than just 3'20" singles". Some - not all - prog bands did that by appropriating means of bourgeois art music, such as the sonata form. In the beginning, however, classical music did not play much of a role. Rock musicians just wanted to try something new, and this resulted in the sort of rock avant-garde movements we now, somewhat inappropriately, call "psychedelic rock" (inappropriate because not all "psychedelic" music was in affirmative reference to "psychedelic" drugs). The outcomes of this experimentation were different in different places - you just can't say that the Grateful Dead "sound like" the Velvet Underground, and Kraftwerk is another game again - but had a lot in common: they expanded the rock song form by means of collective improvisation and repetitive patterns. Many bands never got beyond that, and were criticized - somewhat unjustly - of "noodling on a single chord for half an hour". Progressive rock was the next step: some musicians, especially in the UK but also elsewhere, were not content with those amorphous collective improvisations, and sought for ways to bring structure into their long pieces. An obvious place to look was, of course, "classical" music, which had had structured long forms for centuries. But that was just one possibility, and questions such as "Is Close to the Edge really in sonata form?" are somewhat besides the point. The main long form of progressive rock is what is often called the "multimovement suite" which, however, is not a Baroque suite in any way, though it gets close to what is called a "suite" in 19th-century "program music", and perhaps better called, in classical terms, rhapsody. Of course, the academic avant-garde had moved way beyond that by then, and from their standpoint, progressive rock was just picking up what "real" art music had thrown out as obsolete decades ago. But then, the academic avant-garde has been aloof of the general musical audience from the start, with Schoenberg founding his "Society for Private Musical Performances" as early as 1918. |
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13436 |
Posted: April 11 2015 at 09:52 |
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Which is rather funny if you think about it, considering that at the apex of album sales by the big prog bands in the mid-70s, critics were already labelling them as "dinosaurs". A very limited shelf-life for avant-gardism, obviously. So, rather than avant-garde it was more of a rear action in the baggage train.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
Posted: April 11 2015 at 09:11 |
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It's been my experience that prog rock fans will distort the genre into being Avant Garde in order to place it in a more sophisticated light. This never changes.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 11 2015 at 09:00 |
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Thank you.
In reacting to what they perceived to be the status quo isn't a wholly accurate reading of the status quo, the status quo was not just Prog, but included Glam Rock, (what we now call) Classic Rock and lots of other established popular music forms that were part of the corporate music business. Also their reaction did not create something new per sey in a musical sense in that it was more a return to basics as exemplified by 1960s the garage rock scene of the USA. Certainly however, the Punk scene itself carried that "shock of the new" that we associate with avant-garde in art and culture.
Karn Evil 9 does indeed carry all those traits and I would also point to The Three Fates as bearing some closer similarity to classical music in structure and perhaps even in composition than anything created by Yes or Genesis. However, neither piece is recognisable as a concerto, sonata or symphony in the classical music sense of multi-movement pieces.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: April 11 2015 at 08:43 |
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Excellent post certainly.  I suspect I just misunderstand this bit but are you saying that an (extreme) musical transition from one style to another that is sourced from a reaction to or rejection of prevailing values is by definition avant garde? It could be argued that Punk was a reaction against the prevailing status quo of hit parade pop blandness and the bloated pot noodles of Prog but not even Punk's most strenuous supporters would ever claim it was avant garde. I agree that the vast majority of what we (loosely) call 'Symphonic Prog' is something of a misnomer but would you have the same misgivings anout the Symphonic credentials of Karn Evil 9 by ELP?, which for me, treats themes, motivitic content and developmental transitions with the same academic rigour as that exercised by classical composers from any era. Edited by ExittheLemming - April 11 2015 at 08:44 |
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thwok
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 15 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 160 |
Posted: April 11 2015 at 07:26 |
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Posts like Dean's about the real meaning of "avant-garde" make me extremely jealous.
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I am the funkiest man on the planet!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 11 2015 at 06:44 |
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[Thanks Sventonio, you've helped crystallise the disparate thoughts that have been rattling around my head.] It is not a fact that so many of young classically trained musicians prefer the avant-garde over Classical music, that is supposition and a poor one at that. Also, their taste and preference has nothing to do with the structures and flourishes they find in symphonic progressive rock music. Whether they were "fans" of Mozart or Schoenberg is irrelevant, people who are classically trained can analyse the structure of a piece of music regardless of their personal musical preferences. Being popular is not the same as being Pop, what we now call Classical Music was popular in the 17th and 18th centuries but it was not Popular Music. Some of its composers and performers were afforded what we would now call "star" status but they were not (art) pop stars. Popular Music was practically non-existent before the latter half of the 18th Century. Prior to that there was just Art Music and Traditional Music and it was the development of cheap industrialised printing that could mass-produce printed music that lead to the rise of Popular Music. This technological change moved music out of the concert hall and into the taverns, inns, dance-halls and tea-rooms. It also signalled a change in patronage and in audience, because now a composer could earn a living by selling their music rather than being paid to write it. To facilitate this change the music became simpler and shorter, for example a minuet section of a symphony could be published in simplified form so that it could be played as a piece of social dance music typical of the Regency Era (see various Jane Austen novels such as Northanger Abbey). Further more, the change to simplicity was something that was already happening in Art Music around 1750. Art Music at that time was undergoing the major change from Baroque to Classical ... this change was probably the most significant one in musical history - Baroque (at that time used as a form of insult, what we now call Baroque music was not called that in its day) was seen as ornate and over-embellished whereas Classical referred to an imagined early period (namely the classic Greek and Roman eras of 2000 years earlier) and was seen as being simpler, refined, restrained and (thus) far more elegant by comparison. How radically different these two forms of Art Music are is beyond the scope of a simple forum post, for example the "Symphony" underwent a radical change from being a loose generic term (for sonata, concerto and opera) to an established compositional structure in its own right. What we are guilty of when applying the term "Symphonic" to modern rock music is essentially in ignorance of this development of the Symphony as an established compositional structure. Music of the Classical Era was the vanguard (vanguard == 'advanced guard' == avant-garde == pioneering) music of its day - it was a "reaction against" the rule-heavy complexity of the then mainstream form of Art Music that we now call Baroque. Mozart was a key figure after-the-event of this "rebellion" against the established norms of Baroque (he was born after the 'advance guard' had instigated the change from Baroque to Classical) ... the "avant-garde reaction" to Baroque had become the mainstream form of Art Music of the Classical era by the time Mozart came to fame. However, as the infamous 'too many notes' quip shows, his compositions were still seen as being a little too baroque (i.e., ornate) by those who had adopted this change in style. They were not criticising his music for being too complex, they were criticising it for being too old fashioned. Mozart however didn't see it that way, he was a composer who wanted the best of both worlds: he revelled in the relaxation of "the rules" that had constricted Baroque era music but wanted to explore some of its virtuosity and complexity. In that respect Mozart was not "avant-garde", nor was he creating a fusion of Baroque and Classical era music, and nor was he tearing up the rule-book of Classical Music composition, he was just continuing the development the already established mainstream Art Music of the Classical era (elegance) without rejecting everything associated with the old-fashioned Baroque era, you could say that [he regarded] creating elegance in composition purely by exercising restraint as akin to throwing the baby out with the bath-water. [Of course, no one would call CPE Bach, Hayden or Salieri 'avant-garde' composers either because the term wasn't used as a descriptive for musicians until the early 20th century, but what they were doing was reacting against the established norms, which is the same thing.] The following Romantic era of Western Art Music by contrast was not a "reaction" or "rebellion" against the then established mainstream Art Music of the Classical era, but a development of it in much the same way as the music of Mozart was, the restrained elegant simplicity of Classical era was allowed to have expression of emotion, and virtuoso solo's were more accepted. So (to drag this post screaming and kicking back to the OP), transitions in musical forms from one style to another can be either a "reaction" against something or they can be a development out of something. One we can rightfully call 'avant-garde' and the other we cannot. 'Avant-garde' is not a style of music. Nor is it some bolt-on filigree ornamentation that can be used to "radicalise" an existing form of music. It is an approach and the music created using such an approach is firmly "of its time and place". So copying the style of a piece of 'avant-garde' music is not being 'avant-garde' any more than creating a piece of music in the style of Classical Era Art Music is a "reaction" against the Art Music of the Baroque Era. Being "of its time and place" is key here. Once the initial 'avant-garde' "reaction" has occurred everything that follows after that is a development out of it (and has the propensity of becoming kitsch as a result). Movements and factions that create 'avant-garde' music such, as Rock In Opposition, are limited to those musicians that initially pioneered the movement - we can continue to call later musicians who copied the resulting style of music RIO if we so wish, but they are not 'avant-garde' in the strictest use of the terminology. The only reference modern 'avant-garde' musicians should make to earlier 'avant-garde' musicians is to acknowledge their existence and not replicate what they achieved. We can only use words like "reaction" when what is being produced is actually a reaction to something and in doing so creates something new. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Symphonic Progressive Rock (and Prog in general) was not an 'avant-garde' reaction to the established norms of Rock Music, nor is it a fusion of Rock and Classical music but a development out of the extant Rock Music. As many have said, it is Rock Music with classical-like embellishment and that is a musicologically accurate assessment. I have seen people comment that such-and-such piece of Progressive Rock is symphonic because it has movements and therefore a symphony-like structure and this is a grossly inaccurate reading (and understanding) of both the piece of music in question and of Art Music Symphonies.
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: April 10 2015 at 22:44 |
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Well, the fact is that so many of young clasically trained musicians prefer the avantgarde over the Classical music. That's a matter of taste. However, it doesn't mean that the fusion of rock and Classical music in late 60s / early 70s and beyond was less avantgarde per se. And, what actually is the most important thing in whole story, it doesn't failed to generate a new genre of Art music from its rock roots. In fact, it's the same thing what Henry Cow did do but in another genre i.e. avant-rock. Perhaps those trained musicians you mentioned are not big fans of e.g. Mozart, who actually was, let's say, an "art pop star" at his heydays, but his oeuvre is (great) Art Music same as the music by their probably favourite Schoenberg. Henry Cow's catalogue is a stunning fusion of avantgarde and rock that is an instant mix which is unable to be separated or treated separately anymore and, consenquently, converting popular music into Art music. However, it is also the case with the best of English Symphonic rock creations that are a fusion of Classical music and rock and (or) pop-rock. The moments of pop here and there is no harm, on contrary, it's great and similar with the case of great Mozart. I love Henry Cow so much (Concerts is my fav album by HC), but above mentioned avantgarde "purists" perhaps need to hear how Yes sounded while performing Heart of the Sunrise at their first apperance at Montreux Jazz Festival in 2003. Although symphonic, at the time when it was released this song was pretty avant per se and yet still timeless & forever separated from popular (rock) music for everyone, as same as Henry Cow's avantgarde instrumentals. If nothing else, the Yes apperance at reputable jazz festival as Montreux as well is the proof of that. Edited by Svetonio - April 11 2015 at 02:53 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 10 2015 at 12:06 |
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I had intended to ignore this, but ah phucquit, I've got writers block on my post for the OP, so what the hell...
Nothing makes me smile more than watching someone labour an analogy or metaphor to the point of absurdity, just picturing the imaginary victory dance that may have ensued as the author clicked "send" is enough to cause an involuntary chuckle. See, the thing is, and this concept is something that even some of the erudite people of PA do seem to have a big problem with, the thing is: there is nothing wrong with Simon's analogy - it does not matter whether it is correct or not, it is only a figurative illustration of the point he is trying to make. All you have to do is accept the premise at face-value in relation to the thing it is analogous to - that is your sole buy-in to the analogy. The analogy is either a good one (you make the analogous connection) or a bad one (you don't get the connection). If you can think of a million and one exceptions to his analogy it really doesn't matter one iota, breaking his analogy doesn't alter his original point. It's like if I say my car is telephone-box red and you reply that your telephone-boxes are yellow therefore my car must be yellow, the existence of yellow telephone boxes doesn't magically alter the colour of my red car, it remains red in spite of the rainbow of colour variants that telephone-boxes are available in. So... this [oral] crime/detective novel
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: April 10 2015 at 08:36 |
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I think an even better analogy would be asking Sherlock Holmes to describe Sir Arthur Conan Doyle |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: April 08 2015 at 08:36 |
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I'd probably agree with this, as the RIO/Avant crowd never seemed to concern themselves with doing 'adaptations' of classical art music c/f ELP, The Nice, Tomita, Wendy nee Walter Carlos, Ekseption, Collegium Musicum etc. Perhaps their disavowal of the cliched structures of Pop/Rock and a contrary, niche fan-base, meant they never felt any need to be taken 'seriously' by a mainstream audience (who ignored them regardless so that's maybe a moot point....). Something like Close to the Edge has always struck me as a pop/rock medley albeit segued with very posh glue (from Wakeman) That's not to say I don't enjoy it, but even I can discern it's tantamount to 'just' a very long Pop/Rock song brilliantly arranged into discrete sections. |
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: April 08 2015 at 04:16 |
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I'm curious to read your own thoughts on the subject, Dean. Probably won't have time to read or process them until the weekend, though, it will be interesting to see how much the article's thesis really holds up under examination: I. e. that innovations in popular music flow downstream from the avantgarde "art music" world through the medium of music scenes that aren't really part of the latter, but more subcultural in nature.
Once again I'm reminded of Frank Zappa's claim that The Beatles ripped off most of their experimental elements on later albums from his work, which he in turn had from more academic work, but Zappa being Zappa I'm not sure if he was being 100% serious. Also, previous threads on this subject I recall bringing up the conclusion that reconciling "art music" into popular styles like rock is harder than it looks and it's limited how much advanced compositional structure can be integrated into those forms. The few classically trained musicians I've heard voice an opinion on the subject almost uniformly find Beefheart/Zappa/Rock-In-Opposition type "avant-rock" and the Zeuhl movement more successful at integrating classical, jazz etc. into rock music than the most popular British symphonic progressive rock scenes, for what it's worth, finding stuff like Genesis and Yes at heart pop/rock in substance and structure with classical technical flourishes. Which is why I guess the article I linked to specifically uses Henry Cow as an example, notice that the author refers to him pursuing a degree in musicology several times. |
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 07 2015 at 09:18 |
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Well, there's a reply that is the diametric opposite of (making) sense. Art Rock is NOT Art Music. Art Music is a distinctly separate musicological classification from Popular Music and Traditional/Folk Music. A genre of Popular Music that fails to be popular does not automatically become Art Music just as a piece of Classical Music that becomes popular does not automatically become Popular Music. Art Rock is genre of Popular Music, and so is Jazz and Progressive Rock and Pop Music. [Some esoteric forms of Jazz are sometimes called Art Music but this is not universally agreed by all academic musicologist, most regard Jazz as a genre of Popular Music regardless of how technically structured (or unstructured) it is]. Also, Art Rock is not Progressive Rock however synonymous and interchangeable *some* people think those two terms are. In the great Venn diagram of Popular Music there is Prog Rock that is not Art Rock; Art Rock that is not Prog Rock and Rock Music that intersects both. Stating that Art Rock and Progressive Rock are in some way Art Music is a gross misconception and somewhat rather pretentious [adjective: attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed]. Using the literal meaning (huh? "real meaning") of words like "Progressive" and "Art" used in noun-phrases that name Popular Music genres is as ridiculous (and nonsensical) as claiming that Baroque Pop is form of Baroque Music of the same canon of music as composed by Bach, Handel and Vivaldi - all it displays is a low degree of musical knowledge and understanding. If we remove the "Classical" from Classical Art Music compositions that reference folk tunes such as those by Ligeti (Violin Concerto) or Bartok (Three Rondos) what remains are not Folk tunes, they are just melodic motifs [ref: Music Theory, Motif - 'the smallest structural unit possessing thematic identity'] that were influenced by (in these examples, Hungarian) Folk Music By the same argument: remove the "Rock" from Art Rock and the remainder is not Art Music - for example remove the Rock from Won't Get Fooled Again or Baba O'Riley and you are left with a repeating arpeggiated chord sequence - to the uninformed this sounds the same as minimalist serialism but it is not. There is no comparison between this simple arpeggio chord sequence and the continuously evolving layered note structures of In C or A Rainbow In Curved Air. So while Townshend was influenced by Riley, he didn't actually create a piece of music that can be compared to Minimalist Art Music. Also, while Riley incorporated avant garde into his Art Music compositions, they are not wholly Avant Garde so any influence of his music on later Progressive Rock musicians (such as The Who or Curved Air) is not a direct connection between Art/Progressive Rock and Avant Garde or to Art Music in general. Similarly, the avant garde feel of Floyd's Saucerful of Secrets or Crimson's Moonchild remains firmly rooted in Experimental Rock Music however much they were influenced by the Avant Garde (or not), again, remove the "Rock" and the remainder is not Experimental Art Music. Experimental and Avant Garde are terminologies that span all musicological classifications in much the same way as "Red Car" describes a colour of automobile that spans all forms of vehicle design. A red sports car is not the same "genre" of vehicle as a red saloon car. No one would (or should) consider Progressive Trance to be a form of Progressive Rock just because they have the word "Progressive" in their name. Therefore Avant Garde Progressive Rock (or Avant Prog as we call it here) is not Avant Garde Art Music, it is Rock Music that incorporates some Avant Garde-like elements. The same can be said of other Rock Music that incorporates Avant Garde-like elements such as The Fall and PIL. Remove the Rock from any of those and what remains is not Avant Garde Art Music by any definition. This is how and why John Lydon and Mark E Smith can create Rock Music that, as Iain said, can carry the avant garde sobriquet without knowing anything of the earlier Avant Garde Art Music movements. Sorry none of that addresses, or even concerns the OP question and its related premise. I have my own thoughts on the subject that I have been attempting to jell into some cohesive form for public consumption, but at present it is merely a mental list of tenuous opinion and thought. Distractions such as Svetonio's post are not helping but I deemed it necessary to clear my mind of his nonsensical assertions first.
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: April 07 2015 at 00:01 |
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Edited by Svetonio - April 07 2015 at 08:06 |
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: April 06 2015 at 06:45 |
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Yeah, one of the article's points is that the ideal of the avantgarde always works from a historical consciousness. So even when they're reacting against a tradition, they're continuing its lineage perhaps just by taking it in another direction by still using it as a starting point. I'm reminded of what William Bennett from the electronic industrial project Whitehouse said about his inspiration from Throbbing Gristle, he didn't imitate them but instead did with the style what TG didn't.
It's the idea of the "artistic genius" as formulated by Immanuel Kant and others, who always "writes a new set of rules" for their respective art form but expanding on what other masters did before them and pointing to new directions other artists can continue. Maybe not even as a straight continuation, but more as counter-reaction. Then again, that is easier said than done. I guess it depends on how much you buy that kind of "big picture" mythmaking as a perspective on art and culture. Which does run into major methodological problems, but it can also be difficult to construct a coherent overview to interpret on the background of without also drawing that type of narrative structure in broader strokes than the historical record might actually support to begin with.
Edited by Toaster Mantis - April 06 2015 at 06:53 |
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18993 |
Posted: April 06 2015 at 05:57 |
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A bit simplistic for my tastes. I'm not sure that someone in the South Pole, that has never seen or heard a TV or read a book, so to speak, could possibly have anything to do, or have read Poe or Doyle. This was the case in many of the arts in other countries, before the advent of the explorers that overcame them and tried to change their culture. All of Latin America lost a part of its culture to that, but to say that an Indian tribe in the Amazon that can not read by our standards can not create stories on their own ... that could rival any writer in our culture ... is a bit strange. Like the American Indian, their culture was to a degree an oral exercise, and not a written one. There is some literature, written afterwards, that delineates many stories in different shades and shapes, and in fact, you can find a film or two trying to work on these legends, which are much older than the literature you describe. In fact, it is much more likely that they gathered some ideas from the news of their ancestors in these "new lands", although a connection to the artistic and musical connections would be far more difficult to establish. It is well known that the European invaders obliterated all their art and customs as much as possible, to "save" them from their evil ways. That's not to say that many missionaries were not doing a good thing, but a culture that is being "improved" by outside influences, will eventually fall to the stronger influence sooner or later. And the European had "fire sticks" that the Indians did not. If, by the title you mention, think that "avant-garde" relates directly to popular music, my thoughts tend to "avant-garde" almost always being a strong rejection of popular music and its (present) commercialization. The bigger concern, today, is that even that which is considered "avant-garde" has to come up in its time and place. I believe that most of these in the 20th century were all reactions to the environment and the things that were taking place. Even Picasso, said that you had to wake people up ... and this was continued through the Surrealists and all the way through the 60's arts, music and literature, all of which had a strong social context, and some of it did, and some did not, get the commercial and political atonement that it might have been looking for, but the minute you say this is "avant-garde" and that isn't, you end up isolating some theater, film and literature and the arts, that was just as explosive and different, that influenced the likes of Faust and Henry Cow a lot more than otherwise. Not as in copy, but in style being similar ... but saying that what Henry Cow did on three or four albums was not already a part of many European traditions, I would think is a bit strange and weird. While not the same, much of it had started way earlier and at times is even considered to have grown from even the likes of Weill and Brecht. The early synthesizer folks, up until Beaver and Krause, for example, were trying to see if that instrument could create sound spheres that were "recognizable" to our ears, and eventually the likes of Carlos, Tomita and others ended up making it even more accessible to our ears. It was quite "avant-garde" in those days until Carlos came about, and what it did to Bach was "cute" and "fun", which is more of a popular attitude towards music, than the classical attitudes ever were towards that same music. And it is conceivable (though not likely) that a strange futuristic film would help make sense of it for us! Popular music is rarely "innovative", to my tastes, but I was brought up on classical first and only started hearing popular/commercial music after my 15th year ... and this the more important barrier to change and break, than where it comes from. One can only hope that "popular music" can rise just past the top ten ideals, so it can also be considered better music and given some respect, as opposed to it being considered a dumb down version of what is considered proper and better music. How much of that "popular music" relates to the "avant-garde" is, in my book a reaction in many arts ... not always visible, although I am becoming more and more afraid that it will likely be harder to happen these days, as the cynicism and appreciation for different things is taking a very bad toll in the media that wants you to suck up to the "normal" ... of which PA is also a representative!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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The avantgarde's relation to popular music
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Svetonio wrote: