what is prog? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Shakespeare View Drop Down

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Topic: what is prog?
Posted: March 22 2007 at 18:27

...Metheny would win...

Shakespeare View Drop Down

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Posted: March 22 2007 at 18:26

Oh, this is easy!

Anything featured on PA!

MusicForSpeedin View Drop Down

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Posted: March 22 2007 at 16:01

prog is p r o and g

Music is something of its own.

vingaton

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Posted: March 22 2007 at 14:02

"Miles and Hancock are jazz musicians"

As are John Abercrombie, Pat Metheny, John Zorn, Al Dimeola, Ian Carr, and many other Caucasian artists listed as solo artists on these archives: Where are their Afro -American contemporaries like Billy Cobham and Stanley Clarke? Both are responsible for some groundbreaking jazz/rock fusion. As far as Miles being the original fusion artist goes, without Bitches Brew fusion would have sounded quite different at the very least, or maybe even non-existent. The watershed flowing from this critical record are only partly represented on this site, and coincidentally only by white artists or white artist led bands.

Also, by "European derived" I did not intend to imply a national meaning, but rather indicate a racial/cultural bias, so my original point still stands..

And another question....Where's Hendrix? Was he (like Miles) too far ahead of the curve to be included with the likes of Spirit, Jefferson Airplane or God forbid.....Deep Purple?

Yontar

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Posted: March 22 2007 at 13:32

vingaton wrote:

"Jazz requires greater talent than Prog."

Steve Howe just called. He said he can kick Pat Metheny's ass.

ahh but what about the songwriting aspect??? in my opinion prog are jazz are all to similar to compare to one another!

Edited by Yontar - March 22 2007 at 13:32

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Posted: March 22 2007 at 11:46

Uroboros wrote:

clarke2001 wrote:

Furthermore, if an fictional band releases an album, let's say, 60 minutes longs with 8 tracks on it...

Track 01: average country with spices of rock in Garth Brooks style
Track 02: a blues piece utilising slide
Track 03: a heavy metal number in Megadeth style
Track 04: a short folkish protest tune, with mouth organ (harmonica)
Track 05: a collaboration with a tenor in "Pavarotti meets Bono Vox for world peace" style
Track 06: alternative piece between Stereolab and Sonic Youth
Track 07: pure contemporary classical, short piano piece, because keyboardist is classically trained and insisted on inclusion of his work on this album. Just unaccompanied Steinway piano.
Track 08: (longest track, 10 mins) electronic piece, typical acid-house, no live instruments, because guitarist is toying with computers in his free time, and wanted to include his piece on this album.

...this album is diverse and eclectic. Is it prog?

The band's name is Estradasphere and yes, they are included on this site under RIO/avant prog. Check them out - they are totally worth your time.

Er...wow. That was not my intention, but...wow. I will certainly give a try to these guys. Lovely review Urobros!

Percussion, sir!

Certif1ed

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Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:12

Snow Dog wrote:

Maybe for this site the question could be.."What isn't Prog?"

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Snow Dog

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Posted: March 22 2007 at 05:25

Maybe for this site the question could be.."What isn't Prog?"

Certif1ed

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Posted: March 22 2007 at 04:28

"Prog" is the current name for a whole plethora of genres of music that also includes what has become known as "Classic Prog".

"Classic Prog" is Progressive Rock, more recently shortened to Prog Rock - a name posthumously given to hard to categorise bands such as King Crimson, Yes, ELP, VDGG, Genesis, Jethro Tull and Pink Floyd by journalists in the mid 1970s (in other words, significantly after these illuminaries had released their world-changing music). As such, it's not really a "proper" genre, since the bands are so very different.

However, if you analyse the music (and analysis can be a huge part of the enjoyment of it - something that's common to all Prog Rock) - there are certain typical characteristics that can be ascertained that mark out bands that define the genre (ie those I listed earlier, and others besides), and thus we can begin to define exactly what it is that separates Prog from non-Prog.

I won't waste space by listing the characteristics, as I've already done that on Wikipedia, but the most important factor is form.

If you take any single piece (with a few notable exceptions) by any definitive Prog band, you'll notice straight away the avoidance of common song structure.

This wasn't particularly new - Progressive jazz musicians did that to traditional jazz pieces in the 1950s, and Progressive blues musicians did the same to the blues.

In fact, King Crimson's first two albums are almost extensions of Progressive blues, with a notable difference; The pieces are almost wholly structured, as if in some kind of quasi-Classical form (by "Classical" I mean something more typical of cutting-edge (not avante-garde) composers for non-rock instruments of the time).

The oft-misunderstood "Moonchild", for example, is a brilliant piece of ephemeral soundscaping with strong links to Pink Floyd's experimentations - particularly those on Ummagumma.

The breathtaking range of material on King Crimson's first album is another key factor - but most notable is the way that the material is grouped, such that the album in itself feels like a complete voyage.

This careful structuring - composition, if you will - is fundamental to Progressive music.

The real skills of Prog musicians lie not in their virtuousity (which is, after all, relative), or technique (which is simply something you learn, and is a characteristic of technical music, not necessarily progressive music), but in their arrangement and compositional skills.

Well, that's what I think, anyway...

Edited by Certif1ed - March 22 2007 at 04:56

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Posted: March 22 2007 at 00:57

vingaton wrote:

There is an unsaid racial element lurking just below the surface as well. There is a distinct bias toward western or at the very least European derived artists on this site and in the so-called "Prog" genre(if there actually is one). For instance: Time signatures and virtuosity? Then where are Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock? Nucleus and Passport are listed though. Osabisa is listed, but there are many many more amazing black artists not considered like Sun Ra. Also Native America and other aboriginally inspired music like that recorded by Cusco is not considered.

But no racist element-- i.e. a favorite CD of mine from 2004 was Venezualan Gerardo Ubieda's 'God's Garden'. Not to mention great new bands such as Musica Ficta from Israel (soon to be added), Cuba's Mezcla (not here yet but top-notch jazz rockers), and countless amazing Japanese groups such as Flat 122 and Interpose. No no, PA has quite the international database of artists. It's up to members to look them up and check`em out. And Miles and Hancock are jazz musicians who had less to do with the invention of fusion and more with the conditions that led to it.

Edited by Atavachron - March 22 2007 at 01:11

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Posted: March 21 2007 at 21:01

vingaton wrote:

"Jazz requires greater talent than Prog."

Steve Howe just called. He said he can kick Pat Metheny's ass.

Harrumph, correction , please. Jazz may require greater "technical" skill than prog. Talent is not required to play any music. Ask John Lennon when you get to heaven why Elvis made him want to pick up a guitar. Hint - Elvis was not a "talented" guitar player.
As for the Steve vs Pat batlle, maybe Pat feels Steve's teeth couldn't look any worse, so why break your knuckles Big%20smile

vingaton

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Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:54

"the goo that emerged "

Our new moniker for the "Prog" milieu?

I want to see beyond that tree
And defy the force of gravity

Penumbra

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Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:47

Progressive Rock would not have been if New Orleans had not developed Jazz music in its melting pot of African, European, and Caribbean communities. There was way too much to say "the classical pianist Creoles did it!", or "the African musicians in Congo Square invented the percussion we use in rock!". Everything fell into a giant cauldron and the goo that emerged just happened to shape into Yes, Genesis, ELP, Camel, Jethro Tull, etc. into eternity.

The Holy Trinity of Symphonic Progressive Rock

vingaton

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Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:40

"Jazz requires greater talent than Prog."

Steve Howe just called. He said he can kick Pat Metheny's ass.

I want to see beyond that tree
And defy the force of gravity

StyLaZyn

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Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:26

vingaton wrote:

"I enjoy 90125 much more. Really. And I do find it to be Progressive because it contains non-standard time sigs, non-standard song format, songs >5minutes long, and excellent musicianship with pieces that an average musician could not play."StyLaZyn

Funny comment that gets to the root of the matter.

There is an unsaid racial element lurking just below the surface as well. There is a distinct bias toward western or at the very least European derived artists on this site and in the so-called "Prog" genre(if there actually is one). For instance: Time signatures and virtuosity? Then where are Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock? Nucleus and Passport are listed though. Osabisa is listed, but there are many many more amazing black artists not considered like Sun Ra. Also Native America and other aboriginally inspired music like that recorded by Cusco is not considered.

One thing to consider, at least from what I have understood, is that the earliest Prog also tried to incorporate Classical music elements. For the most part, if not entirely, Classical Music is European. But was it an adaption from jazz as well? I personally consider Jazz to be the next logical step for the musician who wishes to move forward with his/her abilities, possibly to the idea that Jazz requires greater talent than Prog.

Edited by StyLaZyn - March 21 2007 at 14:27

vingaton

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Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:42

Funny comment that gets to the root of the matter.

Music can be described as being jazzy, bluesy, or even classical and is understood by pretty much everyone. To call something "proggy" or proggish" is awkward and imprecise as this discussion proves. Even those of us who love this site (like me) can not agree on what "Prog" is. I suggest a broader acceptance of what can be listed and thus studied and discussed within this forum. Available minds and adventurous ears would lead to more openess to artist additions and less hobbyhorses to ride.

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And defy the force of gravity

StyLaZyn

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Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:07

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ maybe CttE is "very progressive" and 90125 is "moderately progressive". Lamp

Mike,

It's one of those things that sets your webpage apart from and above the rest. Your Prog rating is great.

There is just not enough time to rate all those albums.

MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

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Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:04

^ maybe CttE is "very progressive" and 90125 is "moderately progressive". Lamp

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StyLaZyn

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Posted: March 21 2007 at 12:58

Penumbra wrote:

I mean, why does "91205" stand alongside Close to the Edge (just because it's by Yes)?

You are right. CTTE is subpar and should be removed. j/k

I enjoy 90125 much more. Really. And I do find it to be Progressive because it contains non-standard time sigs, non-standard song format, songs >5minutes long, and excellent musicianship with pieces that an average musician could not play.

Penumbra

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Posted: March 21 2007 at 12:52

Oh dear... what a conundrum. What about just cutting off the albums that get below 2.00? They're obviously not prog and everyone hates them anyway. LOL

Seriously, I think Prog Archives needs to prioritize its album selections and not just throw in the whole discography. At least keep the meaning of prog that you've laid down "sacred" and keep only the progressive recordings. I mean, why does "91205" stand alongside Close to the Edge (just because it's by Yes)?

The Holy Trinity of Symphonic Progressive Rock