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CloseToTheMoon 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 28 2010
Location: Michigan
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 Topic: "Rewards repeated listening"
Posted: December 24 2010 at 14:29 |
I agree it's a cliche phrase, but it's exactly true in many cases. Especially with experimental or progressive albums. Like the previously mentioned TFTO. When I got that on vinyl, I listened to only one track at a time so I could wrap my head around it better. It's in my top 3 Yes albums because there's so much in it.
I'd say a straight pop album should be almost immediately likable but after I heard Pet Sounds for the first time, I was almost unimpressed. I like it the more I listen to it, but I still haven't heard a great master of it. Sonically it's nowhere near Sgt. Pepper or even Days of the Future Passed.
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It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.
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AllP0werToSlaves
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Joined: July 29 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 249
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Posted: December 20 2010 at 11:50 |
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I think it really depends on the artist/album. Gorguts "Obscura" takes many a listen to really sink in, let alone make any sense to the untrained prog listener.
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Baggra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 16 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 221
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Posted: December 18 2010 at 08:54 |
All this palaver going down every forum that TfTO is epitome of excess & over-complication is lost on me.
Its a clear masterpiece and I took it (just about) completely in on first listen.
Now, concerning an example of a lp that really opened up the horizons on repeated listens, in my case at least:
the concept lp, and Birthcontrol's proggiest, "Backdoor Possibilities".
I think the complexity on this amazing lp is down mainly to the - uncharacteristic for Birthcontrol! - complex vocal harmonies.
This didnt really hit me till the third or fourth listen.
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brainstormer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
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Points: 887
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 21:37 |
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Attahk was the first Magma album I owned. I didn't like it and couldn't really
play it the whole way through. I came back to it shortly, and started liking
it more and more. I then championed that album even when it was unpopular
(in the mid 1990's, most Magma fans online said they didn't like it).
Even after hearing the rest of their catalog it's still one of my favorites.
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--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net
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freyacat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 17 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 146
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 09:52 |
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I think that the thesis here is entirely wrong. People say that an album "rewards repeated listening" for a reason.
It could almost be a definition of art music. Pop music is supposed to grab you on the first listen, and so the musical rewards are right up front for you to enjoy - catchy verse/chorus/riff, simple, clear lyrical ideas, etc.
The first time I listened to the introduction of "Close to the Edge," I thought, "what is this hippie garbage? They're just making noise!" But it was intentional enough that I kept thinking about it and returning to it. Decades later, I am captivated by this piece of music. I learned to recognize that initial apprehension as a sign that this music might require some sustained attention. Following that sign has been a joyous lifelong quest!
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sad creature nailed upon the coloured door of time
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Rune2000
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Joined: May 23 2004
Location: STHLM, Sweden
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Posted: December 05 2010 at 05:09 |
 paganinio wrote:
I see this phrase in reviews a lot. X album "invites and rewards repeated listening", as if other albums didn't.Stop using this phrase! Every album rewards repeated listening! ... |
That's not entirely true. I have noticed that most of the simpler prog genre music, *running for cover* like crossover, symphonic, metal, proto etc., is easier to gasp after only a few spins of althe album at hand. This doesn't mean that I will write my review immediately after 2-3 revisits, but my attention to details starts to stagnate rapidly.
The opposite of this example of Rio/Avant-prog bands that generally require a whole lot more time and effort for me to get into. If you've read my 5-star review of Miriodor's - Avanti!, then you'll know that I hated that album at first but have now grown into it.
I simply consider your opinion invalid when discussing the complete spectrum of prog music.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 22:02 |
FunkyM wrote:
"Because, unlike movies and books, music always requires (and rewards) repeated listenings over a long period of time, usually more than two years."
I dunno. I think I'd get a heck of a lot more out of seeing Bridge on the River Kwai multiple times than I would from listening to Ke$ha's Animal. I don't think this theory holds up for me.
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On similar lines, I don't see why a great book is not worth reading over and over. It arguably applies more to books than to music or movies in that the former may take longer to digest unless one's idea of serious writing be Alchemist.
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chrijom
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 23 2010
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 683
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 13:51 |
I think this thread's getting a bit pretentious. 
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5160
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 13:40 |
moshkito wrote:
Almost all of us reviewers that have been at it for years, do not need to listen to things that many times ... we have way more reference points for most stuff that we listen to, than the music itself has for us. And that is the difference.
It's the same thing for Foreign Art/Film Reviews, of which I have 500 or more and half of that in the Internet Movie Database ... there is no chance of seeing the films a second time, so if your attention is not there, why are you writing a review (first) and (second) what are you doing here?
I am not sure I would want to suggest that "regular" listeners do not have the same ability and are not used to seeing/hearing something different. The only issue I have with the majority of the music listed here, is the same reason I do not review top ten ... 10k people already done it ... what do you need my review for? ... besides, I only do the ones that they are not big enough to try, yet! The ones no one knows or has heard of before, because that is where the majority of gems are these days ... the rest is way too comercial and we need to start dropping most of those reviews, specially when some of the groups are mere mom and pop copies and not progressive at all. |
What are you talking about? You may write a lot of poetry but if I'm not wrong you have posted only one review in PA, for ITCOTCK, and we must thank god because if there were many more reviews like that here I'm quite sure they would put off anybody from listening to prog.
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JasonL
Forum Newbie
Joined: November 15 2010
Location: Richmond
Status: Offline
Points: 24
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 20:37 |
hobocamp wrote:
topographicbroadways wrote:
Jethro Tulls A Passion Play really did reward repeated listening i couldn't grasp a hold of the whole thing or concentrate the first few times but i came back to it a couple of weeks ago and gave it my full attention and it was a really great listen and i played it about 4 more times after that over the next few days that was definitely rewarded repeated listening |
Dude, it took me so long to like this album! It sounded disjointed and unfamiliar at first, but finally a few melodies began to grow on me and now it is one of my favorite albums of all time.  |
This is a good example of how I think we're actually talking about three different phenomena. Let me break it down: (1) Requires repeated listening - an album (or song, or artist, or what have you) that isn't all that appealing at first listen but unveils its charms slowly, frequently because it's got kind of an austere surface - A Passion Play above, or Henry Cow (2) Rewards repeated listening - sounds fine when you first hear it, and each listen sounds good in a different way, because there's simply a lot going on in the album and it takes repeated listens to absorb it all - certainly the best albums of Yes, Genesis, classical music, jazz, and so forth (3) Permits repeated listening - album doesn't really have any secrets to unfold, but doesn't become grating or annoying after several listens - good pop music does this I think a lot of albums might get #2 for different reasons - sometimes the music, sometimes the lyrics, sometimes just the solos, etc.
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Xanatos
Forum Senior Member
Banned
Joined: February 01 2010
Location: Latin America
Status: Offline
Points: 305
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 19:54 |
 /thread
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hobocamp
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2010
Location: Fine Furniture
Status: Offline
Points: 525
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 17:09 |
topographicbroadways wrote:
Jethro Tulls A Passion Play really did reward repeated listening i couldn't grasp a hold of the whole thing or concentrate the first few times but i came back to it a couple of weeks ago and gave it my full attention and it was a really great listen and i played it about 4 more times after that over the next few days that was definitely rewarded repeated listening |
Dude, it took me so long to like this album! It sounded disjointed and unfamiliar at first, but finally a few melodies began to grow on me and now it is one of my favorite albums of all time.
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three dot, a trinity, a way to map the universe,
three dot
four dot, is what will make a square, a bed to build on, it's all there,
four dot
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 16:17 |
moshkito wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. All I noticed was that the senseless wall of text didn't address the "physics" axiom.
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If you had the intelligence to even attempt reading and stop thinking that the world is all about the sh*t you don't like ... you might find a gem here or there! But I'm not sure you have the attention span to even try ... since your answers usually have only a few characters and you think your name is Jesus! |
If Walter makes you cum that doesn't make him Jesus.  By the way, I think it is a bit harsh the amount of sl*g.ing you've been getting around here for your postings. You've obviously been listening to prog for a long time and I find it unkind. Although I do read some and I confess they often makes my brain hurt. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - December 03 2010 at 16:22
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 16:15 |
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A lot of people here are using language when talking about prog to indicate an underlying assumption that it is of godlike remarkability. Get over it people. Prog is not god's gift to anyone. It's just music.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Online
Points: 18649
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 16:03 |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. All I noticed was that the senseless wall of text didn't address the "physics" axiom.
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If you had the intelligence to even attempt reading and stop thinking that the world is all about the sh*t you don't like ... you might find a gem here or there! But I'm not sure you have the attention span to even try ... since your answers usually have only a few characters and you think your name is Jesus!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Online
Points: 18649
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 15:56 |
rdtprog wrote:
That's why i always think that you can't listen to prog music in your car, in a party or as music background.
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You can.
And I do.
But listening to Heldon and Djam Karet, or some of the more unusual "progressive" ... not the comerical sounding ones called "prog" ... does take a little more discipline and ...carefull-ness ... (is that a word?) ... because for me these tend to take me away tripping ... and you really should not do that while driving!
But geee ... I'm listening to Mike Oldfield right now, and just had Kate Bush and before that a bunch of solo albums from the Gong family folks, before that Hawkwind, before that Man, before that Nektar, before that ... want me to keep going?
But the difference is ... I'm listening for the pleasure of enjoying some great music ... not because it is this or that or some silly idea like "progressive". I listen to "albums" ... like I would a symphony or a concerto ... not because it is some kind of glorified rock music (or jazz, or fusion or whatever) that we discuss here day in and day out.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 15:55 |
moshkito wrote:
Tapfret wrote:
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
A Physics axiom for many of you ...
"Quality is inversely proportional to Quantity"
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Hi,
Such sweeping generalizations, and particularly the laws of physics are somethings that art transcends.
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I hate to tell you this ... you are quite incorrect.
I personally tried this with actors and musicians, and there is a trick to it ... and it is the level of your attention ...check this out ...
If your attention span is 100%, I doubt you will need 50 listens. If your attention span is 10%, you will probably need 500 listens ... to find that little subtle thing that kicks in your listening pleasure ... but by that time I doubt that you will ever listen to it again, because your ability to concentrate is too scattered!
It's the same thing with actors for the stage and learning lines ... 100% concentration, you can learn 50 lines in 20 minutes ... 10% concentration it will take you 4 to 5 hours to get all those lines down ... you decide, which of these is more fruitful for you ... but I can tell you that the difference between a pro and an amateur, usually is their ability to ingest/digest it in one take (so to spaek) ...
Almost all of us reviewers that have been at it for years, do not need to listen to things that many times ... we have way more reference points for most stuff that we listen to, than the music itself has for us. And that is the difference.
It's the same thing for Foreign Art/Film Reviews, of which I have 500 or more and half of that in the Internet Movie Database ... there is no chance of seeing the films a second time, so if your attention is not there, why are you writing a review (first) and (second) what are you doing here?
I am not sure I would want to suggest that "regular" listeners do not have the same ability and are not used to seeing/hearing something different. The only issue I have with the majority of the music listed here, is the same reason I do not review top ten ... 10k people already done it ... what do you need my review for? ... besides, I only do the ones that they are not big enough to try, yet! The ones no one knows or has heard of before, because that is where the majority of gems are these days ... the rest is way too comercial and we need to start dropping most of those reviews, specially when some of the groups are mere mom and pop copies and not progressive at all. |
I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. All I noticed was that the senseless wall of text didn't address the "physics" axiom.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Online
Points: 18649
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 15:46 |
rdtprog wrote:
... But as far as make a review of a classical album, it would take me forever, because the
complexity of this kind of music is beyond me. |
And here is my point all the time ... now transpose that thought to rock music ... and the original "progressive" folks were pretty much stretching things into that classical complexity ... but we created "prog" because it has no complexity and is just another radio version of something that was done before ... it can't even broken down to anything else but yet another sonata format with the same bridges and choruses ... how original!
The important thing is that none of the originals will ever "sound like" someone else ... and that is not something that a "style" like "metal" is capable of expanding on very much. You have to have a very good sense of "self" to do so, or at least of "artistic" ideas, rather than some kind of "prog" idea ... which is to me just like cheap bar-hop band stuff ... it doesn't even take that much talent to play a 4/5 instead of a 3/4 or 4/4 ... or 7/8 ... so what? ... but see how many "Stravinsky's you can find in the land of progressive music ... hint ... most of those labelled in some "style" or other, are not even worth a listen!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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rdtprog
Special Collaborator
Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams
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Location: Mtl, QC
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 15:44 |
moshkito wrote:
Tapfret wrote:
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
A Physics axiom for many of you ...
"Quality is inversely proportional to Quantity"
|
Hi,
Such sweeping generalizations, and particularly the laws of physics are somethings that art transcends.
|
I hate to tell you this ... you are quite incorrect.
I personally tried this with actors and musicians, and there is a trick to it ... and it is the level of your attention ...check this out ...
If your attention span is 100%, I doubt you will need 50 listens. If your attention span is 10%, you will probably need 500 listens ... to find that little subtle thing that kicks in your listening pleasure ... but by that time I doubt that you will ever listen to it again, because your ability to concentrate is too scattered!
It's the same thing with actors for the stage and learning lines ... 100% concentration, you can learn 50 lines in 20 minutes ... 10% concentration it will take you 4 to 5 hours to get all those lines down ... you decide, which of these is more fruitful for you ... but I can tell you that the difference between a pro and an amateur, usually is their ability to ingest/digest it in one take (so to spaek) ...
Almost all of us reviewers that have been at it for years, do not need to listen to things that many times ... we have way more reference points for most stuff that we listen to, than the music itself has for us. And that is the difference.
It's the same thing for Foreign Art/Film Reviews, of which I have 500 or more and half of that in the Internet Movie Database ... there is no chance of seeing the films a second time, so if your attention is not there, why are you writing a review (first) and (second) what are you doing here?
I am not sure I would want to suggest that "regular" listeners do not have the same ability and are not used to seeing/hearing something different. The only issue I have with the majority of the music listed here, is the same reason I do not review top ten ... 10k people already done it ... what do you need my review for? ... besides, I only do the ones that they are not big enough to try, yet! The ones no one knows or has heard of before, because that is where the majority of gems are these days ... the rest is way too comercial and we need to start dropping most of those reviews, specially when some of the groups are mere mom and pop copies and not progressive at all. |
That's why i always think that you can't listen to prog music in your car, in a party or as music background.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Online
Points: 18649
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 15:37 |
Tapfret wrote:
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
A Physics axiom for many of you ...
"Quality is inversely proportional to Quantity"
|
Hi,
Such sweeping generalizations, and particularly the laws of physics are somethings that art transcends.
|
I hate to tell you this ... you are quite incorrect.
I personally tried this with actors and musicians, and there is a trick to it ... and it is the level of your attention ...check this out ...
If your attention span is 100%, I doubt you will need 50 listens. If your attention span is 10%, you will probably need 500 listens ... to find that little subtle thing that kicks in your listening pleasure ... but by that time I doubt that you will ever listen to it again, because your ability to concentrate is too scattered!
It's the same thing with actors for the stage and learning lines ... 100% concentration, you can learn 50 lines in 20 minutes ... 10% concentration it will take you 4 to 5 hours to get all those lines down ... you decide, which of these is more fruitful for you ... but I can tell you that the difference between a pro and an amateur, usually is their ability to ingest/digest it in one take (so to spaek) ...
Almost all of us reviewers that have been at it for years, do not need to listen to things that many times ... we have way more reference points for most stuff that we listen to, than the music itself has for us. And that is the difference.
It's the same thing for Foreign Art/Film Reviews, of which I have 500 or more and half of that in the Internet Movie Database ... there is no chance of seeing the films a second time, so if your attention is not there, why are you writing a review (first) and (second) what are you doing here?
I am not sure I would want to suggest that "regular" listeners do not have the same ability and are not used to seeing/hearing something different. The only issue I have with the majority of the music listed here, is the same reason I do not review top ten ... 10k people already done it ... what do you need my review for? ... besides, I only do the ones that they are not big enough to try, yet! The ones no one knows or has heard of before, because that is where the majority of gems are these days ... the rest is way too comercial and we need to start dropping most of those reviews, specially when some of the groups are mere mom and pop copies and not progressive at all.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
"Rewards repeated listening"
