 ivan_2068 wrote:
This is relatively easy to answer. The fact that god exists in some people's mind is making them enforce their beliefs (and so called morals) to others and calling non-believers evil etc.........
A non existing being according to your beliefs, can not ruin anything, it's men percepton and human acts what ruin things. You can't blame the ghosts or the fairies for anything. But the very idea of this ghost of god existing is ruining many lives
Then you're giving me the answer, is the wrong idea about God, the righteous perception of some people, not God. We will not agree on this isue of course , but the very fact that people think there is a God and he supervises life and the planet is the problem
Maybe a problem for you, but any person's personal belief or disbelief is no problem for me, this is called TOLLERANCE Tolerance should a a two way notion, the reverse from religion is hardly the case!
The problem is that you're making Generalizations, there are fanatic Religious people, and they scare the sh!t out of me, as there are fanatic Atheists with a clear agenda that also scare the sh!t out of me.
Many of my friends are Jewish, and one of them told me that he was afrain of Orthodox Jewish (Those who never cut their side hair or shave).
There's people with culture on religious side also that see the danger of fundamentalism. On the other side this intollerant religious rednecks (for example) will find anything to be ointillerant.
Take the Ku Klux Klan, they say they talk in the name of God, Bull sh!t, nobody can kill an innocent for his skin collor in the name of God, they only use this excuse of a sectarian and a racist God to support their madness.
So it is relatively easy to say that God ruins everything because thereare some people who believe in it and try to enforce their beliefs on everyone else
Then blame intolerant or fundamentalist men, not God. Of course you are right about this but the other believers do nothing against those extremists. Expulsion or ex-communication could set out a clear message
What do atheists do about those fanatics who attack religious people !!!!!(outside communist country , I do not remember atheists ever aggressing religions), All arround the world religious people are attacked, maybe not physicall attacks as in Communist Countries, but there's a tendency to see religious people as innocent idiots Although I would not agree to this per se there is a ring of commom sense to that statement , unfortunately for centuries those innocent idiots massacred those who did not agree with them.
Yep, some religions have accepted their fault, I can only talk for Catholics because I'm more informed about us, and John Paul II asked public excuses for the mistakes commited by the Church during the Inquisition.
But I have another perspective, we can't blame so hard this courts from our 21st Century perspective, if today a woman is accused of witch, probably will get a talk show  , in those days people effectively believed in witchs and stanic pacts.
I don't defend Inquisition, but even you must accept we're talking about two different cultures.
there's good and evil everywhere. Normally the fanatics are the less, but sadly are more active than the normal people. Agreed fully
Catholic Church has done their part, fanatics as the ultra orthodox Marcel Lefebre have been excomunicated, but we can't deal with all of them as Atheists can't deal with their own fanatics . Again I have never heard of atheists fanatics (outside the communist regimes), please enlighten me on this situation!!
Please, there are a lot, civil rights societies whose attacks to religion are evident and clear, everyday the freedom to express your beliefs is considered illegal in more places, and as you admit later, this Asociations are managed by Atheists with a clear agenda against Religion. The Civil rights watchers are to garantee that atheists can walk around society without going in front of an inquistion and end up on a bonfire courtesy of clergymen
Oh please Sean,this guys auto proclaim him the voice of everybody, and that's not true, this a$$holes are the same guys who are asking for the freedom of Abimael Guzman who was the head of Shinning Path and killed 35,000 innocent peasents, not rich men, not politics, just peasents.
This are the guys who are asking for the release of Lorie Berenson, a USA citizen who entered illegaly to Perú with a convict terroris from Panama and was found in a terrorist safehouse with the maps of the Peruvian Congress and with fake Id as a member of the press.
They forced Peruvian Government to have a new trial and we accepted, even the whole trial was transmited on TV, but this Civil Right watchers are talking in the name of the terrorist and not for the victims.
I wonder what would this guys said if a Muslem was found with plans of the USA Congress hidding in an Al Kaeda safehouse.
Just take a look at this nice forum where most of us are friends, when Pope John Paul the II died, some of us expressed our sorrow and grieve, but there was an a$$hole expressibg hapiness for the dead of this good man calling him a mother fu**er. This is intollerance. Agreed!!! so this is one intolerant atheist (or maybe he was a protestant or a Scientologist) and millions of religious zealots who are bigots and intolerant themselves
You only need to accept there is wrong in both sides, that's all.
Have you ever seen someone starting a post sayin Atheists are stupid? But I seen a lot of posts attacking religious beliefs and started in each and every case by Atheists. Those threads were never started as such if I remember well but always by some restrictions from one side or the other. Be it for religion or against it!
I agre, bu tread them carefully, I never seen a thread that started saying Atheists are evil or Atheists are intollerant, but I have seen many on the other side.
Have you ever seen Catholics doing Catholic Rock or preaching door to door Every frigging saturday and Sunday we get christians knocking on our door to convert everyone they can a lot of them are christians sects (Mormons , Scientologists and Jehovah's Witnesses just to name those I SAID CATHOLICS, most Christian denominations don't consider us Christians, so don't change the subject, we know that Mormons, Scientologists and Jehovah's Witness are famous for their door to door work, and it's a fact that for most religions, this is wrong. Catholics not considered christians?!?! I guess you got me completely confused! I (and almost everybody I know - atheists included) consider catholic church as the base of christians beliefs and anyone that thinks of christianity thinks of the vatican and the pope. I believe even the hardest of protestant will feel offended in his christianity if the pope is attacked!
There are at least 100 web pages that explain why Catholics are not Christians, all of them signed by Reverends or institutional Christian Churches.
Take the self proclaimed Born Again Christians[
http://www.born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm
Some are even more radical:
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm
Some of them even accuse us of cannibalism because we believe we eat Christ's body during mass.
Read the "self proclaimed Dr" Bob Jones Jr. books (From the Bob Jones University) speaking about Catholicism, just a bunch of irrational insults.
[quote]
Spring has come to Bob Jones University in Greenville, S.C. The crape myrtles are in bloom, and the peach-toned brick buildings glow creamily in the afternoon sun. The cheery campus hardly recalls the school's old self-description as the "World's Most Unusual University." Not, at least, until one wanders by the bookstore and sees material on Catholicism under the heading "Cults." Or converses with an earnest young music major near an administrative building. "The Pope isn't necessarily the Antichrist," he explains, parsing a famous (and never retracted) statement by his school's founder. "He is an Antichrist."
When Bob Jones Sr. founded his university in 1927, explicit anti-Catholicism was a staple of conservative American Protestantism. Americans alarmed at the influx of Irish and Italian immigrants took solace in Reformation descriptions of the Pope as the Whore of Babylon. Eventually most American Protestants left anti-Catholicism behind, and from the 1950s on, Billy Graham led many Evangelicals toward a greater tolerance. Jones, however, reviled Graham. (He later reviled even Jerry Falwell.) His fundamentalist separatism suspended B.J.U. in amber on topics from anti-Catholicism to its ban on interracial dating (which led to the revocation of its tax-exempt status). Today B.J.U.'s positions are truly marginal. Although some conservative Protestants still prefer to refer to "Christians" and "Catholics" separately, B.J.U.'s hard-core attitude, says University of Akron political science professor John Green, is shared by only "a tiny, tiny portion of Evangelicals."
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2000/02/28/catholic.html
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Another good 100 of pages (At the least) mention the Pope as the anti Christ, all are signed by institutional pseudo Christian churchs.
, have you seen Jewish doing so? No,Actually since the Jews are the elected people by God , they do not want to convert anyone! Exceptions that confirms the rules Well, you already have Jewish, Catholics, you can have Greek Orthodoxs, Lutherans, Buddhists, etc, I believe most religions don't agree with this kind of work. But it still gets done and no-one stops them from what I gather!!
I can't do anything against any person from another religion doing something wrong, in the same way you can't do anything against an Atheist attacking religious people in public places.
Honestly I don't care about this guys, usually I don't open the door, but once started to talk with one of them, the guy could quote the Bible on memory, but he wasn't able to understand a word, where there are symbols, he understood literal meanings, a total ignorant.
Every time I asked him a conceptual question, he just gave me another quote, couldn't answer a single question.
then don't blame all the people and much less blame God.
Religious people cannot actually come to grips you can be someone great and even more moral than their own beliefs.
Real religuious people don't judge others for their beliefs (oh no!?!? this is constantly done but you do not realize since you are on the "good " of the fence!!!),
I'm not on the good side, I'm not as faithful to my doctrine as I should be, because I also have some doubts. I actually think this honours you! Questionning this forced feed faith is a sign of intelligence. I use the words force feed because they induce this to you as you are a kid , so you never actually question it
Maybe it's because nobody forced me ever, freedom of choice and liberty is the base of a Catholic life. Actually I agree strongly with you on this point - I was broughtup as a catholic and they are not good at retaining the sheeps inside their pen and this is why Catholics are loosing ground to all other denominations or even to other religions. and generally when one leaves the catholic circles , it seems to be for 85% a more integrist doctrine! It certainly has me worried!
Who can understan you? If some religious people do dopor to door work, is wrong and if Catholics don't do it, that's the reason why we are loosing people. Better throw us to the lions, because there's no way we can win. 
you can be an atheist, a Mormon, a Jewish or a Muslem and still have clear values. Of course you can , but those not flocking under the churches or mosque are seen as evil in most places! Because the ones obligeing to this feel that others not doing ir is simply not acceptable; This is wherethe freedom of choice and acceptance come in!
Most Catholics believe we can praise God anywhere, being good cirizens, parents or even professionals. I rarely go to Church, and never felt rejected by my community. If they were they would be losing you altogether right?
For God's sake, you just said that those of us who didn't went to church were seen as evil and rejected, and now you use my argument to say they can't take the risk to loose us. I think you misunderstood me on this!  I said that those not going to church being outcasted as non-believers not passive christians. If vatican were to pursue passive catholic (non-mass goers) then they would lose everything! Hope I made myself clear on this now
I give you half point for that
Fanatics are the ones who give real religious people a bad name.Totally agree, which is why the moderatye religious should (must) be concerned first with this issue and 95% of the timethey do not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sadly in this society, freedom is over-priviledged ??????????over anything, there's freedom to be fanatic and protected by the laws. Nobody acted when the Davidians where preparing their madness, because they never did something illegal.
Yes freedom is over priviledge to the point that it ceases to be freedom and turn into abuse. Each time the police wants to search any of this lunatic prophets like the ones in Wacko, Jim Jones or the Davidians, the Atheist Civil Right watchers, jump and shout they have the right to believe in what they want, but when there are massive suicides or sexual crimes, they blame all religion. I believe that the civil rights is cerainly not protecting them , in this case the constitutional amendment of freedom of cult is cited to protect ALL religions as well as atheism. This is certainly not an atheism idea to want to protect sects (we actually think sects are much more dangerous than organized religions which DO serve a purpose) and if I may , atheism is a small percentage of Americans , therefor inthe US they are certainly not the dominant force of civil rights!
But as you accepted before, this minorities are always the most active ones, and not even you can deny that Atheists have the absolute control of Civil Right watchers.
Last month Florida Courts decided (Because of the pressure of Civil Rights Asociations) that it was legal to burn or skin alive animals to practice santeria because this guys believe it's part of their cultural inheritance. I suppose you speak of Native Americans not atheists, at best annimists or pagans
No. I'm talking about santeria, central America (mostly Haiti and Cuba) practice that includes sacrificing animals, what has been declared legal due to the pressures of Civil Right watchers.
But I'm sure that the same day they find some of this sects also make human sacrifices, they will blame all religions.
Very comfortable position.
Most cilvil right watchers are Atheists by the way.And why do you think that is ????  Could you trust a religious with this? Look at the religious party now in power in poland> outlawing gays , abortion etc.... Can't trust them because they want their PRIVATE BELIEFS to be applied to everyone!
Who gave the Atheists the monopoly of morality? It is about time somebody recognize that atheists are moral people too! we are constantly villified by religious fanatics
I recognize thay CAN BE moral but I don't believe they have the monopoly of morality.
As you say Communism is atheist and, most communist Governments are as corrupt as the liberals (Not talking about Communist doctrine, even when I have clear disagreements with this ideology). I never defended communism although it is in principle a very generous doctrine. It simply cannot work since it ignores on special human trait of character: individuality. The wish for someone to be himself and d a distinct person from his neighbor.
I agree, but this is not the point here.
Please, Atheists create their assoiciations and they run them, that's the only truth, I can't trust a bit in most of this groups, all have a clear agenda
I can trust an honest and sincere person despite his/her beliefs or disbeliefs, again that's the main principle of tollerance. See we can agree on some things besides prog!!!
By the way, against my Catholic principles I admit artificial methods of control of conception.
But I'm against abortion except in case of mother's life risk, rape and one or two more especific situations, but not for religious motive, because I believe it's a bloody crime. OK so you apply this notion to your person and eventually to your family - therefore your private sphere which is what religion principles are about: your own private sphere. Leave the pro-choice person whose body is concerned!! This is their body , their lives and their decisions!! NOT yours or the clergy!!!! This is tolerance!!!!! What is so hard to understand???
Not to my personal sphere, I have worked in several projects and participated in many programs, I believe we're not only talking about the woman's body, we're talking about another person too.
Our Constitution clearly says that the non born is considered born since the moment of conception in order to protect his rights.
Every day people have sex without protection because it's easy to abort This is bullsh*t!! if you think it is easy and pleasant to abort think again and from a woman's point of view!! And think that where it is not legal they will abort , anyway and with very dangerous means for their health . Most women would prefer not getting pregnant if they had a choice (this is costly way of burth control), but in 95% of the case it is the man who refuses the condoms - for God's sake use a fu**ing condom instead of killing an innocent.
No, it's not pleasent, I know that, but it's easier and cheaper than raising a kid.
But last year a Civil Right Association was sued because they sterilized women of the Pueblos Jovenes (Ghettos) without their consent.
Peruvian civil Government declared abortion illegal. Some democratioc rule! How many women's lives will be ruined because they had an abortion anyway ? and for those not having had the choice , their lives will be ruined by the children they did not want or were not ready for it!
Our studies have proved that in countries where abortion is legal, the number of illegal and unhealthy abortions doesn't go down, because even when it's more dangerous, it's cheaper.
I do not know what is so hard to understand here to what I am saying, here. I am sure you actually DO understand , but you cannot admit to it being right!
I believe you're the one who refuse to accept there's good and bad on both sides. Actually Ivan I DO think there are many good sides to religion but unfortunately the clergy on thinks that their doctrines is the only valid one! Is that so hard to understand?
No, it's not hard to understand, I'm not responsible for what some part of the clergy believes, there are a$$holes on both sides.
But there are great people on both sides, I learned about Darwin and evolution in a Catholic School, also learned about the determinist doctrines of criminology (Lombroso) in the Catholic University, both doctrines (even when the second one has been abandoned) are against the theory of the church.
BTW: One of my mentors in Prog, was a priest from my school, Brother Joe Sheehan, one of the most open minded priests Iever met.
And an atheists is somehow more superior since he observes the society morals without believing into a hypothetical supernatural being judging you after death for your acts , even when he knows that judgement does not happen and hell does not exist. The atheist is not following rules because he is afraid of God and other stuff.
He acts as he believes without someone telling him about those morals on a fear basis. Because the religions menaces you of hell if you do notlive by the standards
Most of the people I know act for personal conviction more than by fear, our Church teaches us that if you don't believe your acts are correct per se, there's no merit in your actions. I'll give you half a point on this that this hell-enforced and law abiding morality is dictating the personal conviction of religious persons
Lets accept your thesis that religious people have moral conduct because their fear of hell (even when it's not true in most cases), don't you prefer a religious morality than no morality? Again there is only one choice to your question: a religious morality or none!! Jeeeez !! ooops!! sorry!
Not saying that Sean (And you know) but the lack of moral values is a problem everywhere.
I prefer a Jewish, Mormon, Buddhist or even Atheist moral value than the absence of values.
Isn't the lack of moral values one of the main causes of criminality? I do believe that the mafias are religious and often supported by the clergy!! sorry you set yourself upfor that one!! Look at Italy for example
You saw The Godfather too many times!!! Modern mafia (The cartels, Chinese, The Yakusa and Russian Mafia) have no relation with Church.
And I thought only religious people are intolerant, so Atheists are now superior to believers. I knew that this would irritate you (but I hoped you would see what I meant by that so I outline it again in my text so you read it again and really think of it) , but just imagine that atheist are dealt that very same superior sh*t in all parts of the world; this even goes down to witch hunts and grand inquisition.
Thre are all kind of Inquisitions today, some even created by politics and Atheists. Please enlighten me!!
There's racism, discrimination, attack to each and every Moslem (even when most of them have absolutely no relation with terrorism) agreed!!! but this racism is mostly coming from ancestral foreigner fears and reinforced by Christians fearing the countries taken over by a majority of of non-christians and therefore them becoming the minority!,
Holy God!!! you have to blame us about racism also!!!!
the goverment blame inmigrants of the lack of employment instead of their own incapacity of creating work sources, there are witch hunts everywhere.
persecutions of atheists does exist you know!!!!!!!!!!! Even in the States , you are seen as a person of lopwmorals when you do not beliueve in a god; It does not matter which one but you must believe in something or else you are suspect!!!!!!!!!! I do not knowif religions are aware of this outcasting.
How can you complain? Today is illegal to talk about God in schools only because it is creating tensions between currents and risk of riots,
Please, there are tensions for one thousand reasons, including, sex, race, ethnicity, criminal behaviour, this guys forbid the word God, but they allow students to use the colors of their gangs, isn't this stupid??? of cousre it is. But if you follow the news , young students will have to go back home to dress up properly , not displaying too much skin, low waistline pants getting slowly illegal in schools out of morality. Yopu seem to do a gigantic shortcut by saying that atheist are of the laissez-faire type and that the morale laïque is non-existant! this is hardly the case. The lack of morale is not due to atheism but to the parents not holding up to their responsabilities!
Not only. it's also the responsability of authorities not doing their jobs, I don't praise for a dressing code, that would be stupid, but why collors of gangs should be allowed??
Civil watchers say it's to protect the right of students to dress as they want, but violent clothings are also dangerous and a cause of violence between gangs.
Much more than believeing or worshiping God.
but there's no crime in talking about Atheism Please do not mix atheism and laic moral, they are much different although they do join in cases Who pursued this decision? The civil rights asociations managed by atheists as you already admited.
. It's harder to be a religious person than a cool Atheist. You might just have gotten another half-point but this is valid only for Western Europe countries
No my friend, it's harder and uncool to be a religious person all arroound the world. Say that to an atheist in Iran , Saudi Arabia , United States etc...
Well, I have a friend who played professional soccer in a club of Saudi Arabia, and was forced to pay an econimic penalty for making the sign of the cross before the game, intollerance doesn't make differences between Atheists or Religious people. |
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Posted: November 30 2005 at 13:54
IS GOD RUINING PROG?
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(we actually think sects are much more dangerous than organized religions which DO serve a purpose) and if I may , atheism is a small percentage of Americans , therefor inthe US they are certainly not the dominant force of civil rights!
They are villified !!!
