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Rashikal View Drop Down
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Points: 546 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2005 at 12:19
thats what the website said... but i doubt the clash said "hey we hate prog lets make a band that is based on how we hate it!"
that website is probably a immature site created bt some angsty 16 yr old british scenester
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Points: 5 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2005 at 12:15
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Hey guys, Punk was created as a reaction against Prog', all their official sites  bash Prog', they are against anything lñonger han three minutes or three chords.

I never saw a prog', blues, jazz or pop site wasting their space in writting against the other genres. Yes in forums there's a lot of that, but never in an official site.

Quote


When Dinosaurs Roamed The Earth...


Know thine enemy. While Glam at least was proving some light relief from bands who had grown massive like the Stones, Who and Led Zeppelin there were an even more pretentious wave of bands who espoused the view that rock was serious and who were dominating the serious weekly music papers. Prog-Rock was  mostly listened to by grubby polytechnic students who wore flares and dufflecoats and never had any girlfriends and who would sit cross-legged at gigs on the floor bonged out of their brains. They would gather in bedsits drinking coffee out of chipped mugs and ponder the meaning of the universe while listening to Yes, Van Der Graaf Generator, Camel, Gentle Giant, Caravan, Greenslade and a thousand others. These people knew what they wanted ..lots of windswept guitar histrionics, gushing key boards, lyrics full of mystical allusions and song titles bearing no relation to the music and almost as long as the music itself ! As you read these you can see why punk had to happen. Weighed own by the weight of its own pretensions the scene was set for someone to point out that the emperor in fact had no clothes on. Read on and learn the horrible truth..........

What serious site would write this crap to promote themselves as the salvation of themusical world? If it wasn't for forums, probably you won't see the word Punk in Progressive sites, because we are sure enough of our taste to worry abouit the rest and waste valuable space in criticizing the rest of the world.

They call us the enemy, most of us don't even care enough about them to consider Punk as an enemy.

Quote Genesis  
Were a full blown prog-rock band, inspired by musical bluster and arcane philosophies, capable of churning out as much barking  nonsense as any of their early Seventies contemporaries, including the magnificently daft Yes. Under the direction of the consummately eccentric Peter Gabriel, Genesis indulged  in all manner of theatrical buffoonery and special effects. While the group turned on the pomp and pyrotechnics, Gabriel would nonce around the stage in a variety of costumes as illustrated. The peak of their absolute foolishness came with the Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, a virtually incomprehensible narrative about spiritual awakening spread over a double album. beloved of sixth formers with long hair and greycoats who had too much time on their hands.

Emerson, Lake And Palmer. 
Even the name sounds like a gang of lawyers or estate agents.  They were prog rocks most vulgar trawler men. Their first public appearance, at the Isle of Wight Festival was prefaced by a thunderous cannonade loud enough to wake the long time dead. This was an appropriate fanfare for a group that would be become internationally famous for its bombastic extravagance. ELP produced the ugliest music the world  has yet to endure "Pictures at an Exhibition", Brain Salad Surgery and even a triple live album of dross. Everything they did as dragged own by the weight of their own bloated pretensions, their vivid idiocy, the stupifying grossness that was their unique contribution to early seventies rock. Tipping over a Hammond and stabbing it with a knife to make distorted sounds does not excitement make. For the punter so far back he can see f**k all it might as well be a baboon jumping down on the keyboards.  Unable to come up with anything resembling a decent tune, they regularly vandalised the classics sending several dead Europeans spinning in their graves. The ridiculousness of their music is just so far fetched that you can't help but laugh and wonder at Mark P and Danny Baker who praised them . God ELP were stupid.

Yes . Like Genesis they managed to produce an extra b*****d son to terrorise good taste in the shape of Rick Wakeman. Without doubt the stars of the progressive genre if only for the sheer long windedness of everything they have ever done. The icon for the era has to their magnum opus Tales from Topographic Oceans luckily they made every album identifiable with the godawful Roger Dean designed covers so there was no way you could buy one by accident and you could warn your mum. If by chance you do want to buy them its a credit to Yes that you can buy their whole back catalogue in secondhand record stores for about £5 as people realizing later on in life what sh*te they had bought turned them in their thousands. Topographic Oceans had all of prog rocks defining characteristics in spades.

 
http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/whendinosaursromaedtheea rth.htm 

How this a$$holes dare to talk about drugs in prog??

Or stupid costumes?

Or idiocy?

What serious musical site will criticize a band to show the world how good they supposedly are?

Punk is in essense anti prog, how can you mix both and believe in the possibility of Prog Punk?

Iván



Please correct me if im wrong, but did you say punk was created..against prog?
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Points: 1 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2005 at 11:15

 

 OK. I see that no one here ever heard bands like LAGWAGON or STRUNG OUT (especialy LAGWAGON). Try listening some of their songs, then come back here and dare to say that punk can't be progressive.

 Joey Cape (LAGWAGON's lead singer) is THE one of the greatest rock musicians alive. He can play guitar, drums and keyboard, and on top of all that read some of his lyrics if you want poetry. He wrote over 150 songs in bands like LAGWAGON and BAD ASTRONAUT (a mixture of jazz, punk, emo...), not to mention that LAGWAGON technicaly could seriously f**k up the most of the progressive rock bands today (excluding DREAM THEATER who are f**kin' masters).

Derrick Plourde (RIP), former LAGWAGONs drummer... What can I say, just listen the following songs: RIFLE, MOVE THE CAR, TRAGIC VISION, FOILED AGAIN, etc. BTW, he was one of the fastest single pedal drummers ever (song PARENT'S GUIDE TO LIVING).

Other members of LAGWAGON, Jesse Buglione (bass), Chris Rest and Chriss Flippin (guitars) are so technical, fast, inovative, that I almost sh*t my pants when I heard them for the first time.

 So, before anyone else here say that punk can't be progressive or that punk is dull, stupid, sh*tty or something like that, please listen to LAGWAGON or STRUNG OUT (prefer LAGWAGON).

Thank you! Regards!
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2005 at 23:30
Originally posted by mrdurganator mrdurganator wrote:

Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:



Iván

songs about not being able to find work, being brought up in slums, their conditions - not dimwitted fairy stories, or about spiritualism that only wealth and leisure time seemed to permit. As the Clash said, what relevance were lyrics of Yes, when you were impoverished and you want to speak out about your conditions? Prog was predominately middle class, psychedelia was middle class, (when reggae was working class). Check your history: Jon Savage's England's Dreaming is a good start point for the music and sociology of punk.

 

its the main reason i much prefer jethro tull and pink floyd over other prog bands like yes. ian anderson and rodger waters are two of the greatest songwriters in rock music.ever. songs that are deep but have a definite message- my god, thick as a brick, time, dogs, sheep etc.

In Prog you got to choose:

  • If you want to listen lyrics about anything, you got Genesis: Politics, revolutions, mythology, tradition, history, botanics, sci fi, satire, critics to society, dark comedy, religion, etc
  • If you want to listen poetry you got Yes (BTW: Poetry is a great art genre, those who don't like poetry don't have sensibility) and believe me sensibility is a great component of music.
  • If you want to listen Folk Country inspired lyrics about Horeses without job or songs from the woods (and many things more) you got Jethro Tull.
  • If you want to listen deep critics against the system you got Pink Floyd.
  • If you wantto listen pessimistic lyrics about how futile is life you got Kansas (Hopelesly Human, Closet Chronicles, Point of Know Return, Dust in the Wind, etc.
  • If you want to listen pompous historic legends you got Rick Wakeman and Triumvirat (Even when the second has one really pessimistic album as Illusions on a Double Dimple).
  • If you don't want to listen lyrics you got Anglagard, Focus, etc.

And so on, in Prog' you got a lot to choose, that's called a versatile genre.

When you listen Punk you got hatred, hatred and more hatred sung by posers who are being paid ten times in one year more than what most of us will get in a life time. 

Iván



Edited by ivan_2068
            
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2005 at 23:23
To call The Police an outright punk band is a complete misconception. They began as a punk band only because it was fashionable at the time. All were jazz-influenced musicians looking to break through to the mainstream, and punk was just a way to go about it. At heart, they were a catchy pop band with amazing jazz-influenced chops who knew how to write a damn good song. Basically, the only punk thing about them was the energy in most of their music. Their true ambition can be seen in their later albums and songs, such as "Spirits in the Material World," "Invisible Sun," "Behind My Camel," and "Synchronicity II." Sure, Outlandos De Amor was fresh and energetic, but were the songs really all that punk? The attitude was certainly not there, and that is the true soul of punk, I believe.
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Points: 29 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2005 at 20:53

Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:



Iván

songs about not being able to find work, being brought up in slums, their conditions - not dimwitted fairy stories, or about spiritualism that only wealth and leisure time seemed to permit. As the Clash said, what relevance were lyrics of Yes, when you were impoverished and you want to speak out about your conditions? Prog was predominately middle class, psychedelia was middle class, (when reggae was working class). Check your history: Jon Savage's England's Dreaming is a good start point for the music and sociology of punk.

 

its the main reason i much prefer jethro tull and pink floyd over other prog bands like yes. ian anderson and rodger waters are two of the greatest songwriters in rock music.ever. songs that are deep but have a definite message- my god, thick as a brick, time, dogs, sheep etc.
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Points: 285 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2005 at 13:51
Some punk bands were hateful, some had a great sense of humour. I would say it is foolish to write off any genre because any band is capable of writing good songs.  I like prog but I would never listen to one genre exlusivley (I think I spelt that wrong). The only punk band I buy cds from is the Damned so I am not that that big a fan of punk. Imagine my surprise that one of my favorite bands is a punk band.

Good to see some people who like the Damned on this site.


Edited by spo1977
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Points: 66 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 24 2005 at 20:53

Wow....that's a little broad. Punk...that covers alot. I don't like most punk. Especailly pop-punk (IMO one of the worst genres out there) like Good Charlotte, Simple Plan, Blink 182, My Chemical Romance....... Hardcore Punk, Skater Punk, and some regular is cool with me.

I don't like "old school punk" vocals that make me want to beat my head in, and running around basically saying I am  anti-everything.

That's what else gets me, the idea of punk (as with almost all genres) is used up. Punk fashion is becoming acceptable and mainstream  isn't that  against the idea of punk? Eh wehatever, bascailly  punk.......not that good.

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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 24 2005 at 19:50
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Hey guys, Punk was created as a reaction against Prog', all their official sites  bash Prog', they are against anything lñonger han three minutes or three chords.


Iván



Iván

Punk was not created solely as reaction to prog, it was a reaction to the so-called rock dinosaurs. Note: the list was originally Led Zeppelin, Cliff Richard, Rod Stewart, Yes, ELP - of whom the punk generation (teens in the mid 70 to late 70's), saw  as archetypal  musicians who dominated the record industry (did excessive things in a time political gloom and doom, and seemingly made it difficult to get their simple variant of rock'n'roll heard. Musicians who wanted to play like British rock'n'roll musicians from ~1955: nice and simple songs (with a strong beat and few chord changes about love), songs about not being able to find work, being brought up in slums, their conditions - not dimwitted fairy stories, or about spiritualism that only wealth and leisure time seemed to permit.

I agree, but there's a special hatred against Prog'.

 As the Clash said, what relevance were lyrics of Yes, when you were impoverished and you want to speak out about your conditions? Prog was predominately middle class, psychedelia was middle class, (when reggae was working class). Check your history: Jon Savage's England's Dreaming is a good start point for the music and sociology of punk.

Yep, all start talking anout the poor conditions in which they were raised, but when they earn their first monet they change the perception of reality and of course their way of live, it's funny to look at a moron with a Nazi T-shirt talking about abuse of society.

However, ignore these punk writers who are groomed to write in an agressive style and nowadays, not to check facts(not punk musicians) - the New Musical Express is the home of such writing. The shame is too many people have allowed the opinions a handful of such writers dominate for so long.

Seem to be the most today. 

And also remember prog musicians have never been spontaneously created, (unless they weremembers of a rare breed, born with silver plectrums in their mouths), they too had to graft  and work out simple tunes with a few chords. Have you heard what Jimmy Page or John Mclaughlin sounded like in the mid 60's?

That's the natural path of evolution, you start with the simpler and end with the complex and that's a merit, but honestlñy a very high percentage of the Prog' musicians startedplaying Classical music and only after that embraced Prog Rock.

Personally, have actively followed prog from the very start and heard the music get very jaded/pretentious towards the end of the first 8 to 10 years and wish to f**k that the likes of Jon Anderson would start to write about some semblance of reality (enough for me to be really pissed off with Yes albums from Topographic rubbish), punk was most welcome. The writing not! Hurray from the Strangers, Souxsie & The Banshees, the Sex Pistols, the Police, XTC, Squeeze etc.

Tales is far from being my favorite abum but I rather listen any Yes album (Except after Drama) than 99% of Punk music, including The Police (Except a couple of later albums which oif course are lees close to Punk).

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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 24 2005 at 18:52
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:



Personally, have actively followed prog from the very start and heard the music get very jaded/pretentious towards the end of the first 8 to 10 years and wish to f**k that the likes of Jon Anderson would start to write about some semblance of reality (enough for me to be really pissed off with Yes albums from Topographic rubbish), punk was most welcome. The writing not! Hurray from the Strangers, Souxsie & The Banshees, the Sex Pistols, the Police, XTC, Squeeze etc.

Very good band.

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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 24 2005 at 16:11
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Hey guys, Punk was created as a reaction against Prog', all their official sites  bash Prog', they are against anything lñonger han three minutes or three chords.


Iván



Iván

Punk was not created solely as reaction to prog, it was a reaction to the so-called rock dinosaurs. Note: the list was originally Led Zeppelin, Cliff Richard, Rod Stewart, Yes, ELP - of whom the punk generation (teens in the mid 70 to late 70's), saw  as archetypal  musicians who dominated the record industry (did excessive things in a time political gloom and doom, and seemingly made it difficult to get their simple variant of rock'n'roll heard. Musicians who wanted to play like British rock'n'roll musicians from ~1955: nice and simple songs (with a strong beat and few chord changes about love), songs about not being able to find work, being brought up in slums, their conditions - not dimwitted fairy stories, or about spiritualism that only wealth and leisure time seemed to permit. As the Clash said, what relevance were lyrics of Yes, when you were impoverished and you want to speak out about your conditions? Prog was predominately middle class, psychedelia was middle class, (when reggae was working class). Check your history: Jon Savage's England's Dreaming is a good start point for the music and sociology of punk.

However, ignore these punk writers who are groomed to write in an agressive style and nowadays, not to check facts(not punk musicians) - the New Musical Express is the home of such writing. The shame is too many people have allowed the opinions a handful of such writers dominate for so long.

And also remember prog musicians have never been spontaneously created, (unless they weremembers of a rare breed, born with silver plectrums in their mouths), they too had to graft  and work out simple tunes with a few chords. Have you heard what Jimmy Page or John Mclaughlin sounded like in the mid 60's?

Personally, have actively followed prog from the very start and heard the music get very jaded/pretentious towards the end of the first 8 to 10 years and wish to f**k that the likes of Jon Anderson would start to write about some semblance of reality (enough for me to be really pissed off with Yes albums from Topographic rubbish), punk was most welcome. The writing not! Hurray from the Strangers, Souxsie & The Banshees, the Sex Pistols, the Police, XTC, Squeeze etc.
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 19:47

Originally posted by Rashikal Rashikal wrote:

how the heck was animals punk!?

Musically: Hell no.

Lyrically: Though sophisticated, it is full of spite and hatred.
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Points: 546 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 19:19
how the heck was animals punk!?
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Points: 224 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 19:14
Anyway, punk isin't that bad, just The Sex Pistols, their musical folowers and the idiots that think that they started the whole punk "sceene".
And the most "Progressive" and "punky" thing you can do is mix those two "eneymy" geners together.
(Kinda like Pink Floyd did with Animals, or like The Mars Volta do).

What's yer faovrite album? =^_^=
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 12:17

Ivan:

I have that article as one of my Favorite Places just to have something to make me angrey whenever I get too happy.

Anyway, I'm not usually this close-minded, but when it comes to music, I'm an incredible snob. I think punk, "emo" and "hardcore" all are degerate forms of "music" and do not deserve the time and energy it would take me to light one of their useless albums on fire.

'Nuff said.

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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 11:30

Hemispheres wrote:

Quote as much as that article was just plain stupid there had to be something about prog and we actually do have something about punk on the official website the history of prog mentions it but not in a negative way really

100% Agree with you, any serious web site that talks about Prog' history has to talk about punk, mentioning that it started as a reaction against the so elaborated and complex Prog, and probably decribe which are the main characteristics of early Punk in comparison with Prog, but without falling in cheap insults.

It's part of ourhistory and we can't hide it.

But it woould be wrong to write 4 pages about the worst Punk bands describing all their addictions and their idiocy (Because they have their own share of it), How Sid was member of a band without being able to play a single note and how those posers called The Sex Pistols kept him because it was good for their image. .

Just a centered unpassionate description. But this guys make 4 pages (Out of 9) justto insult Prog', Genesis, Yes, ELP, JethroTull, The Who (For the Rock Opera and Conceptual albums) and of course Rick Wakeman and King Crimson, that's plain stupid, and my post was to prove that fact only.

Cheers

Iván

BTW: I used to like some Devo when a kid because there was no way I coud watch Prog' during those years in Perú execpt in one TV program called Disco Club (Disco as a translation of Record to Spanish, not about the dance genre) this program used to play a lot of Classic Rock, a little of  Prog (Maybe one song each 4 programs, I even saw the whole Yessongs for the first time in a 1 hour special, because the normal program lasted 30 minutes), some STYX, Klaatu, etc, but mostly  New Wave and Punk,

So I got used to Devo, Richard Hell, The Police, Blondie (More crappy Pop than Punk to be honest, (Even though this site claims she's a punkette) until I got tired of them (And new programs arrrived with some Prog on them).



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Points: 533 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 07:13
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Originally posted by walrus333 walrus333 wrote:

Um we do talk about punk some this thread for example

Yep Walrus, but I was referring top official web sites, this is a forum, we can't control (and I wish we will never) what people write (Not even about Prog), we find ELP bashers, Genesis haters, etc.

So it's normal to talk about Punk, Pop or Rap in a forum, but no Progressive OFFICIAL WEB SITE (Like Prog Archives home page) takes position criticizing any genre.

I don't ask Punk web sites to praise prog (wouldn't care if they did), I onluy ask them to ignore as as our OFFICIAL WEB SITES do.

Cheers

Iván

as much as that article was just plain stupid there had to be something about prog and we actually do have something about punk on the official website the history of prog mentions it but not in a negative way really

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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 00:08
Originally posted by walrus333 walrus333 wrote:

Um we do talk about punk some this thread for example

Yep Walrus, but I was referring top official web sites, this is a forum, we can't control (and I wish we will never) what people write (Not even about Prog), we find ELP bashers, Genesis haters, etc.

So it's normal to talk about Punk, Pop or Rap in a forum, but no Progressive OFFICIAL WEB SITE (Like Prog Archives home page) takes position criticizing any genre.

I don't ask Punk web sites to praise prog (wouldn't care if they did), I onluy ask them to ignore as as our OFFICIAL WEB SITES do.

Cheers

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Points: 286 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2005 at 23:29

I think that yes prog takes itself to seriously sometimes but punk is complete bull**** the whole point of the music is to be quick, extremely simple and overly rebellious. making it a very limiting and idiotic genre.thankfully however its dead. I must admit to liking an obscure punk band called Naked Ray Gun though

Um we do talk about punk some this thread for example



Edited by walrus333
If anyone knows where I can get a copy of some Flute and Voice (Indo-Prog/Raga Rock) albums please PM me! Many thanks!
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2005 at 23:26
Hemispheres wrote:
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Hey Richard Hell And Devo were great in there day maybe if u would actually listen to some of this music before judging it you would no i think the average prog fan could enjoy Richard Hells Blank Generation theres some great guitar playing going on there the same goes for Devo they were higly influenced by Captain Beefheart,Zappa,Krafwerk and others i wouldnt really call them punk though and for there fashion sence who cares there clothes were kind of funny and werent spousto be taken seriously well actually i think there was some sort of social commentary going on there with there concept of de evolution but im not getting into that Rick Wakeman wore stupid clothes too but u probbably love him (im not dissing wakeman)

You don't get me Hemispheres, I can't care less how they dress or how stupid they are, I don't even care about Punk to be honest, I'm just saying that in their OFFICIAL web page they say how ridiculous costumes used Gabriel and Wakeman, How vulgar was ELP (????) and that all progheads are dirty hippies who use drugs all day.

But if I worship a stupid (literaly stupid sub normal) talentless drugadict as Sid, or others who  use stupid costumes as Devo, or a poser like Richard Hell,  I wouldn't open my mouth to criticize other genres.

I love Genesis early concerts, so I would be at least stupid to criticize artists fom other genres who have theatrical shows, that's why I never say a word about Punk, as I said don't even care about hem until they mess with us.

In our forum people (including me) joke and even talk crap about SOME artists of other genres (Or even of our own genre as Phil Collins), but you'll never see in the Prog Archives home an article against other genre, go to GEPR, they don't even mention Punk, go to Progressor, the same thing, check any site from the Progressive Rock Webring and you'll see that Punk is simply ignored, so why can't this guys leave us alone?

Why in hell do they need to print 4 pages insulting Progressive Rock, when we don't even mention them?

If you remember I was the first one who criticized our members who irrupted in a Punk forum to talk crap about them, but honestly this guys provoke us.

Iván
            
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