Phil Collins: A Nasty Man?

Don't judge you, by the contrary, I'm happy to have an intelligent debate woith people well informed and not with some blind fans from other site that say everything Genesis did is perfect becausee it's Genesis.

But I understand a totally different thing from your quotes, but again it's only my opinion.

The Genesis so many of us like wouldn´t have been without any of members. They all put in something that made their music special. In the book Tony says that Phil liked Yes and brought some of their playing ability to Genesis.

But you have read him saying that anything after Fragile is crap, and that was a literal quote.

Mike says that Phil´s drumming added a new dimension to Genesis.

Would have to be an idiot not to agree with this, my problem is not with his drumming, I recently had a discussion with a member who said he was only an average drummer not able to plñay with Yes.

My problem is not even Phil the singer (Even when I like Pete's voice and singing more), my problem is wiyth Phil the songwritter.

Mike, Tony and Peter seem to be working very well together composing and it´s hard for Phil and Steve in the beginning to contribute. Peter says that Steve wrote things they all liked but quite a lot that they didn´t like. Steve saw it as a compromise joining the band. He wasn´t a fan of the music. Reading the book I get the feeling that he only felt really involved in Selling England...First he says he had a slight inferior complex as a composer, his ideas were not well recieved, his marriage ended etc. Still his guitarplay was very important to the music even if his composing didn´t reach the albums.

Sorry man, but Steve is the only Genesis member that released a whole album with new version of Genesis songs, i can't understand how somebody can say he didn't liked the music.

Not even Peter made an album with all Genesis tracks, only Steve.

If I were to sum up my opinions of the five (actually leaving out Ant Phillips seems wrong since I think his guitarplay was important to the early Genesissound and the fact that Mike called him the key member at the time) members life after Genesis:

• I have the highest respect for Peter Gabriel. I think is albums are really great. Not necessarily prog-music, sometimes pop, but always honest and with depth. He finds new ways both in composing and performing. My absolute favourite solocareer. Agree
• Phil is a fantastic drummer, good singer and composer but I don´t like his albums. Agree
• Steve is a great guitarplayer, ok composer. I´ve got several of his albums -there are some good songs but I think they are uneven and not consistent.  Agree except with his uneven albums, his career is the most solid from any ex-big 6 band member.
• I love Mike´s Smallcreeps day but then his albums don´t appeal to me. Not even Smallcreeps day for me
• Tony is somewhat a disappointment to me. In my opinion his solo albums lacks something, considering his influence on the composing Genesis-music. Agree, Tony is the kind of guy who needs somebody pushing him IMO

I feel like I´ve sort of left the point wether Phil is nasty or not...

• From what I´ve read the members have all stated that there were things they didn´t like about the albums I love. Everybody has favorites and some not so favoriyte albums, but Phil is the only one that said he felt embarrased to listn early Genesis albums.
• Changing musical opinons is healthy in my opinion - we shouldn´t blame Phil for that. Their solo efforts have more or less with progmusic to do. There are changes and changes, I believe Genesis change was infamous.
• You can´t go on making music your fans like, do what feels right for you at the moment. No you can't, but ou can avoid selling out.
• Phil´s Face value was regarded groundbreaking for the drumsound - isn´t that musical progress?  It was performance evolution, even the cheesiest pianist gets better with years but his songwritting is musical degradation IMO.
• Reading the book the other members praise Phil for his contributions to the band both as a musican, writer and friend making evreryone feel good. Well, he filled their pockets

Summary: I don´t think Phil is a nasty man and he doesn´t deserve all the critisicm he sometimes gets here at Progarchives.

I don't think he's bnasty, seems a nice chap, but he said too many stupid things and then contradicted himself depending in the way the market went, He said Prog is crap when Prog was unpopular and harrased by Punk, Disco or New Wave, but when his boring pop became part of the past he changed and said he always was a proghead.

Iván

Idem

I only wonder what your reaction would be if (a big if!) Phil releases "My favourite Genesis tracks from the 70`s" - rerecorded with old friends. I know my reaction to Hacketts "Genesis revisited" was- Hmm, I guess he´s running out of money...

Well Steve was recording a couple of other albums and he was wealthy by that moment, his dream was always to make Genesis sound as he wanted to listen them

If Phil made a compilation of 70's albums I wouldn't think he's running out of money (In first place nobody will acept to do a Prog Genesis album with him), I would think hre wants MORE money, and he's trying to recapture Prog' fanbase.

But Steve wa always a Genesis fan, even when he wanted to make some modifications, he only could achive that making it himself, and lets be honest, he used an expensive cast:

	Nick Magnus		Keyboards, Programming
	Ian McDonald		Flute, Saxophone, ?
	Pino Palladino		Bass
	Jerry Peal		Keyboards, Programming, Engineer
	Kim Poor		Illustrations, Cover Art
	Richard MacPhail		Vocals (Background)
	Billy Budis		Mixing
	Hugo Degenhardt		Drums
	Matt Dunkley		Arranger, Conductor
	Gerry O'Riordan		Engineer, Mixing
	Lippa Pearce		Design
	Aron Friedman		Piano, Programming, Orchestration, Fender Rhodes, Fortepiano, Keyboards
	Anton de Bruck		Director
	Spats King		Vocals (Background), Vibraphone
	Will Bates		Saxophone
	Bob Fenner		Programming, Orchestration
	Richard Wayler		Vocals (Background)
	Jeanne Downs		Vocals (Background)
	Chester Thompson		Drums, ?
	Colin Blunstone		Vocals, ?
	Paul Clark		Photography
	Royal Philharmonic Orchestra		Orchestra, ?
	Sanchez		Vocals, ?
	Julian Colbeck		Keyboards
	Ben Fenner		Keyboards, Programming, Orchestration, Engineer
	John Hackett		Flute
	Alphonso Johnson		Bass, ?, Drums
	Roger King		Keyboards, Mixing, Orchestration, Engineer, Programming
	Tony Levin		Bass, ?
	Bill Bruford		Percussion, Drums, ?
	Paul Carrack		Vocals, ?
	Steve Hackett		Guitar, Orchestration, ?, Main Performer, Harmonica, Percussion, Vocals, Producer, Vocals (Background)
	John Wetton		Bass, ?, Vocals

LOL. I found Richard Mc'Phaill here, at that point and due to the 1973 in memorian, I thought McPhaill was dead, later I found an interview by him (2001) and new he was alive and healthy but only today found he made backing vocals in Genesis Revisited.

I wonder something, this guy was never a Genesis member, he was describe as a "Musical friend of the band", what the hell is he doing here?

But back to the point, the investment in this album was big, Bruford, Levin, Wetton, Ian Mc'Donnald, Julian Colbeck, etc are not cheap, and he knew from thestartthis album would never be a hit.

As I wrote, I find Hacketts soloalbums uneven but on the other hand his music is solid (apart from that GTR-thing, didn´t like it!) and (apart from the bluesalbum) he has stayed on the same ground, progrelated and close to classical guitarmusic. He knows what he likes...

I agree, one weak album, because GTR was a multi members enterproce that involved even Steve Howe, but it wa a disaster.

Iván

Reading some of these commentaries in this thread I started to think that Phil Collins is really underrated because not too many drummers are key members in their bands.

Bill Bruford, Neil Peart, Phil Ehart (even producer), Ginger Baker, Keith Moon, Jeff Porcaro, Carl Palmer, Mike Portnoy, Mick Fleetwood (The band uses his name ), John Bonham, Carmine Appice, Stewart Copeland, Cozzy Powell, Lars Ulrich, Lee Kerslake, Don Henley, Pat Mastelotto, Terry Bozzio, Roger Taylor, Billy Cobham.

Just to mention a few key members that played drums.

In fact, most of the names of the drummers appear almost always at the end of the credits in the album covers.

This means nothing at all, it's almost a tradition.

Not too many of them sing even backing vocals,

Let me remember: Leee Kerslake. Peter Criss (Even lead vocals), Keith Moon, Carmine Appice, Roger Taylor (Much better backing vocalist than anybody else and even lead a couple of times).

not too many of them are composers, not too many of them become famous as soloists, not too many of them are very good lead singers.

At least 50% of the already mentioned are composers also, and yes there are few drummers who are lead singers, because they would need to hire another musician to replace them while singing. The vocalist is the frontman, he/she has to move around face the audience, etc and a drummer is normally attached to his kit.

Phil Collins had to hire Chester Thompson and Bill Bruford. most great drummers won't ever do that, because they live for their drums.

I also think that he is underrated, because he likes ballads, and not many people who likes Prog Music likes ballads.

I like ballads like Lucky Man, Still you Turn me On,  Redezvous 6:02, Soon, Lonely Wind, July Morning, Carpet Crawlers, and a lot more,

Listen Renaissance, Marillion, Pendragon Barclay James Harvest, Moody Blues, Procol Harum, The Strawbs, etc are full of ballads, and nobody ever made a problem.

What I don't like is MUZAK (Elevator music), and that's Phil's field.

It seems that :

-Guitarists/vocalists/bassists/keyboardists "heroes" are the most important members  in a band . Even the sax players who sometimes only play 3 notes or a solo in songs are more impotant than drummers in bands (it is the same in Jazz, not only in Rock bands).

No, the frontman is the most important man in most of the cases and in live acts, but remember, there's rock without guitar or keyboards, but there's no rock without drums or Bass (Except in a few and very rare cases).

-Drummers who are lead singers "better should stay behind the drum kit and not to sing". Drummers are not really "musicians", because they don`t play "musical notes", so... let`s keep them in the background.

Most of the drummers have musical studies, to make arrangements you need to read and write music, even if you don't make the arrangements, you need to read music in order to understand the new arrangements that bands do after every tour in old songs.

Drummers are kept in the background because DRUMS CAN'T MOVE AROUND THE SCENARIO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Ballads in Prog Rock are underrated, because Prog Rock is not "romantic".

Prog Rock is melodic and can be romantic, there's a difference between romantic and cheesy, most Phil Collins songs are cheesy. 

I know...some people are not going to like my commentaries .

I like them and respect them, even when i disagree.

Phil Collins is a top ten drummer, a good backing vocalistr, an average lead singer and a lousy songwritter, that's my opinion.

Iván

Phil Collins (onion head) <-nickname), is a great drummer and that is where i believed he should have stayed. However he did turn Genesis into a pop group and laughed all the way to the bank.

I like Genesis lps up until  the release of Abacab (grabascab) after that they really went down hill for me. Duke lp is OK but Misunderstanding shoud not be on that LP that is more of Onion Head solo lp song.

Also note that Onion Head didn't do much writting on the good Genesis LPs like: Foxtrot, Trespass, Selling England, Lamb, Nursery, Trick of the tail, EWnd and Wuthering.

Ivan
I think we have reached the end of our discussion wether Phil is nasty or not. I´d say we agree on his drummingskills. So I continue quite off topic!

I agree 100% it0s absurd to consider him nasty, the guy made a solid contribution with his drumming and backing vocals during Gabriel years and a pretty decent job as lead vocalist in ATOTT and specially on W&W.

To be honest, the problem started with all the band specially because many people believe (I also do) that the relation between Tony and Steve wasn't good since he recorded Voyage (Tony was clear, no solo projects, and Steve didn't invited him but calling Mike and Phil), plus the fact that Tony was suposed to be the main songwritter, but Steve wanted to fight this position with him

The whole band took Tony's side (There's no Genesis without Tony) instead of compromising, giving more songs to Steve, It's ridiculous that Your Own Special Way was in W&W instead of Steve's superior material. but it was some kind of fight for the power and Tony won.

This was so clear that in Seconfs Out during the mixture they recorded guitar parts withan incredibly low volume. This went further, Steve wasn't even invited to the 1982 reunion in Milton Keynes (Only played the encores, because he was in audience).

But I believe Steve won more, because he didn't took part in the POP Genesis (Something with what he clearly disagrees) and made a solid career. Most surely he didn't made s much money as Phil Tony and Mike, but he has a wealthy positiobn and artistic respect, something that Genesis lost.

The problem is that after a couple of albums Tony lost xcontrol and Phil decided what path to take, making a parallel solo career that is comonly mistaken with Genesis later albums, that's what I blame him for.

Actually I haven´t heard Hacketts Genesis revisited - is it good? I never liked the idea of re-recording old favourites but I´m getting a little bit intrested now. It is an impressing line up. A lot of well-known names. I think try get hold of the album.

Except the horrible version of Your Own Special Way (Already horrible) because Paul Carrack sounds as Elmer Fudd , the mediocre Bossa Nova version of I Know What I like and the hard to swallow Waiting Room Only, the rest of the album (8 more tracks) is outstanding.

Watcher of the skies is very good and solid vocals by John Wetton, Fountain of Salmacis is great with an acoustic guitar intro and Steve singing ections with vocodsr , but my favorite is the Orchestral version of Firth of Fifth, very beautiful. 

If you like it, get Tokyo Tapes, with live versions of various songs from this album,  ITCOTCK and I Talk to the Wind by King Crimson plus a semi acoustic version of Heat of the Moment and a lot of Hackett material.

I guess he is as close as you can get being a Genesis member without being one.    Some info from Hugh Fielders book:
In 1965 Ant Phillips formed the band Anon with Richard Macphail, Rivers Job, Rob Tyrrell & Mike Rutherford. They did some concerts and demos and then the real story started with Tony Banks and Peter Gabriel joining Ant and Mike 1967. Apparently he was a close friend of the band  because in 1969 Genesis moved to cottage owned by Richard Macphail's parents to concentrate on writing. Later on he became tourmanager for Genesis.

What I can't still understand is the almost in memorian picture of him in Live 73.

"This album is dedicated to Richard MacPhail who left April, 1973."

Most of the people i know think he is dead, even when the death man is healthier than ever.

Iván