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NetsNJFan View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2006 at 19:01
Originally posted by crimson thing crimson thing wrote:

Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

Re crimson thing's cite, here is the quote from Pastor Martin Niemoeller, who was killed by the Nazis late in the war:
 
“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”
 
Peace.
Thanks maani Smile My ref (the ODQ) has a somewhat longer version, but the sense is the same.
 
I hope stonebeard speaks out, even at the risk of inflaming his peers & others - he is articulate enough to make a difference.
 
I'll call a truce with progtologist - we come at these issues from such different positions that we can't possibly agree & I have no wish to inflame for the heck of it.......one comes to this site to find a new band, or make fun of people who like (gasp) different kinds of music from oneself, and yet end up daggers drawn with someone you've never met. Crazy.Cry

 

 
 
That quote always bothered me; who exactly should he have spoken up to?  The British, the Americans, the Soviets?!  No one cared.  Keeping quiet was the best you could do to stay alive.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2006 at 19:07
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:



Originally posted by marktheshark marktheshark wrote:

I'd like to know what the subhuman conditions are.
From what I've heard they're in air conditioned cells with a bed and a
Queran. They're allowed to go outside and the food is better than what
the guards get. The average prisoner there has gained 18 lbs.
You've been listening to Al Jazeera too much Friede.

Oh yes, the cells are certainly "air-conditioned". I have no idea what
you have been listening too, Mark. Probably the propaganda of the
US-administration.
Have you ever wondered why the US-administration does not allow Red Cross inside?


Red Cross to visit US prison camp in Cuba

13 June 2006 10:21
The International Committee of the Red Cross is to visit the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, following the deaths at the weekend of three men held at the prison camp there.

Military authorities at the camp have also announced a review of its procedures.

The Red Cross is the only outside agency that has regular access to the prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay.

A delegation from the ICRC normally visits around six times a year to check on the condition of prisoners.

This visit is not part of the regular schedule and follows the suicides at the camp of two Saudi men and one man from Yemen on Saturday.

A spokesman for the ICRC said that if the agency had concerns, it would share them bilaterally with the US.

The ICRC does not make the findings of its visits public.

None of the three men who died was among the ten at the camp who have been charged with a crime under a military tribunal system.

Around 460 men, labelled 'enemy combatants' by the US, are currently held in Guantanamo.

    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2006 at 19:10
Yes, the pressure is on. Today the European Union made very clear where it stands. Hopefully the end for Guantanamo is near.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2006 at 19:56
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:


Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

What's more: If they had been suicide terrorists, why wait two years to commit suicide?
Or maybe, just maybe, this was the first chance they had to kill themselves. The military is very strict about letting anything dangerous at all get into these cells, but after 2 years they might get a little lax... Considering their ideology, I would think that suicide to prevent yourself from telling the Great Satan anything would be almost as good as killing yourself to kill other people.

Again your argument is founded on the unproven premise that the people in question really were terrorists.
And yours is founded on the unproven premise that they weren't.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2006 at 20:00
Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

Originally posted by crimson thing crimson thing wrote:

Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

Re crimson thing's cite, here is the quote from Pastor Martin Niemoeller, who was killed by the Nazis late in the war:
 
“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”
 
Peace.
Thanks maani Smile My ref (the ODQ) has a somewhat longer version, but the sense is the same.
 
I hope stonebeard speaks out, even at the risk of inflaming his peers & others - he is articulate enough to make a difference.
 
I'll call a truce with progtologist - we come at these issues from such different positions that we can't possibly agree & I have no wish to inflame for the heck of it.......one comes to this site to find a new band, or make fun of people who like (gasp) different kinds of music from oneself, and yet end up daggers drawn with someone you've never met. Crazy.Cry

 

 
 
That quote always bothered me; who exactly should he have spoken up to?  The British, the Americans, the Soviets?!  No one cared.  Keeping quiet was the best you could do to stay alive.
Think of it as a version of the Prisoner's Dilemma, and maybe the right answer will occur to you......
"Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2006 at 06:10
Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:


Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

What's more: If they had been suicide terrorists, why wait two years to commit suicide?
Or maybe, just maybe, this was the first chance they had to kill themselves. The military is very strict about letting anything dangerous at all get into these cells, but after 2 years they might get a little lax... Considering their ideology, I would think that suicide to prevent yourself from telling the Great Satan anything would be almost as good as killing yourself to kill other people.

Again your argument is founded on the unproven premise that the people in question really were terrorists.
And yours is founded on the unproven premise that they weren't.

In case you have forgotten: It is common legal practice to assume the defendant's innocence until the opposite is proven. It is an important part of the legal systems of modern constitutional states. It is in fact a great achievement for modern jurisdictional procedure. And isn't that part of what the US-government supposedly want to bring to Iraq?


Edited by BaldFriede - June 14 2006 at 06:12


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2006 at 14:50
Wow, this is pretty big...

From Reuters:


By Caren Bohan

Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:01pm ET163


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush acknowledged on Wednesday that the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where three detainees committed suicide, has damaged the U.S. image abroad and said it should be shut down.

But he said a plan for relocating the prisoners was needed first and he was also awaiting a Supreme Court decision about the forum for handling detainee cases.

"I'd like to close Guantanamo, but I also recognize that we're holding some people there that are darn dangerous and that we better have a plan to deal with them in our courts," Bush told a news conference in the White House Rose Garden.

He said Guantanamo is seen by some countries as an example of the United States not upholding the values it espouses on human rights.

"No question, Guantanamo sends, you know, a signal to some of our friends -- provides an excuse, for example, to say, 'The United States is not upholding the values that they're trying encourage other countries to adhere to,'" Bush said.

Two Saudis and a Yemeni were found dead at the prison on Saturday after hanging themselves with clothes and bedsheets.

The suicides were the first prisoner deaths at Guantanamo, although there have been many previous suicide attempts and hunger strikes since the United States began sending suspected al Qaeda and Taliban captives there in 2002.

Guantanamo is one of several issues that have undermined support abroad and among human rights groups for Washington's war on terrorism, declared after the September 11 attacks.

The suicides came amid an investigation of U.S. Marines after an alleged massacre of two dozen civilians at Haditha, Iraq, in November 2005 and after the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal.

Bush, who spoke hours after returning from a surprise visit to Iraq, said he was asked about such cases by a member of the Iraqi cabinet. He promised to deal with the incidents.

"And I reminded her that ours is a transparent society where people will see and follow these investigations. And people will be held to account, according to our laws," Bush said.

"But I also want the people to understand, here and around the world, that 99.9 percent of our troops are honorable, decent people who are serving our country under difficult conditions," he added.

Nearly all the prisoners at Guantanamo are being held without charge and some have been detained for more than three years. The 460 foreigners in the prison were captured mainly in Afghanistan during the U.S.-led war there to oust the Taliban and al Qaeda after the September 11 attacks.

The U.S. Supreme Court is expected to rule this month on the legitimacy of special military tribunals set up to try some of the prisoners for war crimes. Ten detainees face hearings before the tribunals.

Bush said the United States was also in a difficult position in some cases in which it wants to send prisoners back to their home countries since such moves have been criticized.

"Of course, sometimes we get criticized for sending some people out of Guantanamo back to their home country because of the nature of the home countries -- a little bit of a Catch-22," Bush said.

He added that a lot of detainees have been sent back already.

 

 

 




Edited by Empathy - June 14 2006 at 14:56
Pure Brilliance:
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