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Atavachron 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65817 |
 Posted: January 18 2008 at 18:12 |
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I know you respect him Cert, I'm just bickering
 ...he didn't really bring anything 'new' by a strict definition, it's true-- Eddie and the others mentioned were much more revolutionary, but I guess Yngwie was evolutionary, the form brought to its very height.. in fact in metal guitar few if any newer players have surpassed Malmsteen technically
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: December 24 2007 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 25210 |
Posted: January 18 2008 at 11:49 |
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^Well, many argue he brought a new way of composing into the rock/heavy metal idiom. As for his technique, his use of diminished and major/minor arpeggios that linked longways (as opposed to from just lower to higher strings or vice versa) across the fretboard gave a new perspective of what would become possible with the sweep-picking technique. Jason Becker, Marty Friedman and Frank Gambale are some of the most prominent sweep pickers to have come on the scene later in the 80s, that had a bit impact on the evolution of sweep-picking.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: January 17 2008 at 07:55 |
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er... when I said "sweep-picking", I actually meant "alternate picking"...
 ...and it's evident in the playing of the gentlemen I named - don't forget that Vai was using many of these techniques and more when he played with Zappa in the very early 1980s - well before "Rising Force". Listen to his playing on "Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch", where Zappa has credited him with "Impossible Guitar".
There's also some amazing playing in a prototype of this style on "Skid", the debut album from Skid Row... I mean the UK band that formed around 1970, featuring a 17 year-old Gary Moore.
Sure, Yngwie brought spit and polish to the style, but I believe that all the techniques were in place before he popularised them - I don't think any of it was entirely new. It was a similar leap in style/technique to Eddie Van Halen before him.
As far as Prog or not - well, that's the whole point of this discussion, isn't it?
I'm not trying to knock what Yngwie achieved - I wouldn't have bought (or kept!) his first 3 albums if I didn't think there was something of merit in them - I merely think that he crystallised existing forms and techniques, bringing a new level of virtuosity to them - hence technical, as opposed to something truly new/progressive.
I'd compare what Malmsteen achieved to Paganini (except that no-one has ever played the violin as fast as Paganini - all interpretations of his music I've ever heard have struggled, apart from Lloyd Webber's rather relaxed composition). However, despite the astonishing speed of Paganini's violin solos, the compositions break no new musical ground, and compare very poorly to, for example, Beethoven or Debussy.
That said, Paganini remains a landmark in solo violin playing, taking the virtuosity of the Italian masters - including the grand master, Tartini, to the next level.
I'd be interested in what, exactly, Malmsteen did that was so new.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65817 |
Posted: January 15 2008 at 20:03 |
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pretty good 'La Villa' cover, nothing terribly new but a nice interpretation.. and a very good album |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65817 |
Posted: January 15 2008 at 17:38 |
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sure, prog or not isn't really important (PMT can figure that out).. as for Vai, brilliant and innovative player but much of what he was doing was an extension of what had come before him in the likes of Zappa and teacher Satriani.. whereas Malmsteen developed an entirely new way of approaching metal guitar that Schenker, Uli and Holdsworth really hadn't ever focused on [not sweeps, but each note of a given 'scale' played individualy in *sequence* with an up/down picking movement].. though I prefer Schenker and Uli's playing and they certainly had the initial tech impact on other players including Malmsteen (of this he makes no secret)
Edited by Atavachron - January 15 2008 at 20:00 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: January 15 2008 at 16:03 |
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I look at what you wrote and what I wrote and see much the same thing...
I think Vai had the precision and speed thing too, and I seem to remember hearing recordings of Holdsworth that predate Malmsteen, in which Allan sweep picks extraordinarily precisely.
Not trying to belittle Yngwie's achievements and influence, rather trying to put it into a bit of perspective. What he achieved was in terms of technique - Blackmore had already emphasised the cycle of fifths compositional technique in a few pieces (rather than as an overall style) - and personally, I think that Roth/Schenker brought more to the foundation of later progressive metal in terms of overall playing and composition technique.
I have to admit that Yngwie's precision/speed combination was very impressive at the time, but it's not really prog rock - at least, no more Prog than the Scorps, Priest, Ozzy/Rhoades or Metallica.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12818 |
Posted: January 15 2008 at 05:23 |
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I think from the examples of Greg Howe last few releases his music is maturing.
 He seems to be one of the few shredders who has moved to jazz rock fusion, and does a pretty good job at it. PS thanks for the reminder just discovered the following at Amazon.UK for less than a fiver - curious to hear what he does to Rush
  Edited by Dick Heath - January 15 2008 at 05:24 |
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martinprog77
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: December 31 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2538 |
Posted: January 15 2008 at 04:43 |
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Nothing can last
there are no second chances. Never give a day away. Always live for today. |
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Avantgardehead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2006 Location: Dublin, OH, USA Status: Offline Points: 1170 |
Posted: January 15 2008 at 02:49 |
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So a guy goes and uses a ton of classical scales and modes over and over and over... BUT AT REALLY FAST SPEEDS!!!!
Been there, done that, next! |
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65817 |
Posted: January 14 2008 at 17:13 |
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well yes, but he also pioneered several important if simple techniques which created 'effects' now often used, such as continuous right hand muting, picking *each* note at previously unheard of precision and speeds (not even Uli was doing this, the only one coming close being Di Meola but in a Fusion context), and a tonal matrix imitated frequently now
Edited by Atavachron - January 14 2008 at 17:21 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: January 14 2008 at 17:07 |
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Such as?
What Malmsteen really inspired was a new generation of sweep-pickers.
One single technique - that is all, as far as I can see, and one that was already perfected by the likes of Holdsworth, Zappa and Vai.
That he chose to sweep-pick using mainly Baroque Italian stylisations is interesting - but Blackmore et al had been incorporating quasi-Baroque styles for 2 decades of so before Yngwie.
Yngwie, specifically "Rising Force" was a kind of figurehead - one that was dropped pretty quickly when it was realised he was a bit of a one-trick pony.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65817 |
Posted: January 14 2008 at 16:08 |
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 ah, the infamous the Donut Affair |
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Zargus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 08 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3491 |
Posted: January 14 2008 at 14:41 |
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"donut...?" "YOU UNLEASHED THE ¤%#ING FURY! /ROAR!
 "
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 25210 |
Posted: January 11 2008 at 01:29 |
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Which features in particular do you dislike about Malmsteen? Edited by HughesJB4 - January 11 2008 at 01:29 |
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heyitsthatguy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2006 Location: Washington Hgts Status: Offline Points: 10094 |
Posted: January 10 2008 at 17:50 |
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I like shredding, but Malmsteen embodies what is wrong with metal to me
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 25210 |
Posted: January 10 2008 at 17:00 |
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Agreed
i think that if Black Sabbath is in the prog related category, surely there should be Malsmsteen in there, because he did certainly inspire many bands to incorporate more progressive elements into their music. |
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Guests
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Posted: January 10 2008 at 16:49 |
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If there are Black Sabbath, there should be Yngwie too.
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12818 |
Posted: January 10 2008 at 12:53 |
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Agreed, but it needed Jonas Hellborg to resue the Johansson brothers from YM - so the story goes - and give them some musically challenges. Just a major pity Jens is paying for his pension playing with Strativarius. However, there is hope with his appearance on Art Metal.
In the meanwhile YM's Inspirations is the only album that does anything for me.
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The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 25210 |
Posted: January 10 2008 at 06:15 |
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I think Rising Force is Prog Related, although the guitar may be highly technical (not so much now, but at the time though), but the compositions in my mind did not, even for its time, incorporate enough progressive elements to be considered purely neo-classical prog metal.
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Nightfly
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 01 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3659 |
Posted: November 20 2007 at 07:34 |
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I haven't listened to any of his albums from the last 10 years and I'm not even sure how many he's put out since then but from the earlier stuff I enjoyed Odyssey the most which was full of great melodic songs.
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Yngwie Malmsteen
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Atavachron wrote: