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micky 
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 Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:43 |
 The T wrote:
Not a bad point at all...
I guess Prog-related is, sadly but really, a sort of "popular-bands-that-quite-didn't-make-it" genre... But I don't make a big deal about it.. After all, it's just a fraction of the whole site...
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exactly it isn't a big deal.... it's not like anyone wastes time with it... when was the last major addition to it... Sabbath.. and that was an owner decision.. not pushed by our collabs.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atavachron
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:42 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Avantgardehead wrote:
In my mind, it wouldn't make sense to put a band here just because their solos sounded progressive...
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Neo Classical solos is not Prog necessarilly, there have to be many other things more, hey lets add Walter Murphy because he performed a Disco version of Beethoven's Fifth!!
Yngwie Malmsteen added some NEO CLASSICAL SOLOS, but the structure is just Metal, not more, not less.
A Prog band or composition has to consider the whole stucture, not just a couple of solos artificially added over a 100% Metal structure.
In other words Malmsteen adds a Bach solo while the rest of the band is backuping him with 100% metal paraphernalia that has very little or absolutely no relation with the solo
Yngwie blends nothing, that solo could be added almost over any genre.
Iv�n |
well not quite, Ivan, his first three albums (at least) compositionally progressed classical metal *far* beyond Blackmore and Gary Moore (both of whom appear on PA in various forms), Roth or Schenker... but it's up to others whether he actually ever appears here and it doesn't really concern me either way
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micky
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:41 |
The T wrote:
Prog-metal would never add Malmsteen... I speak for myself... 1/3 of the team disagrees, and I guess everybody will disagree with his inclusion in PM....
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what decision here is agreed upon by everyone... 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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The T
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:41 |
Not a bad point at all...
I guess Prog-related is, sadly but really, a sort of "popular-bands-that-quite-didn't-make-it" genre... But I don't make a big deal about it.. After all, it's just a fraction of the whole site...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:36 |
The T wrote:
Avantgardehead's point was about METALLICA... not about Malmsteen....
Yes I know T, that's why I deleted the Metallica references, even when I'm not sure about Metallica either.
Even though, as absurd as it sounds, that point doesn't work for the intended target (metallica) but WORKS for Malmsteen, as he's the one with classical solos and metal versions of classical...
That's my point, Yngwie solos are artificial, he could add them over Classic Rock, Jazz, Doisco or even Salsa, but there's no blending of genres, while the band plays 100% straight Metal, he plays artificial solos.
I think the point about the solos has been made. Prog-metal would never add Malmsteen... I speak for myself... 1/3 of the team disagrees, and I guess everybody will disagree with his inclusion in PM....
I knew from the start Malmsteen would not be accepted by Prog Metal.
About prog-related, that's another matter... One that could be discussed when time allows for it...
Then we are turning Prog Related in a dumping ground for non Prog bands, with no Prog relation just because they are popular.
If Malmsteen is related with something is with Neo Classical, and Neo Classical is not Prog necesarilly.
The day he writes a coherent album where he fluently blends Metal and Classical as a whole integral work, then he could have a place in Prog Related or who knows, if the change is radical, maybe even Prog Metal.
But that day hasn't come yet, while his bands plays Metal, pure Metal and nothing but Metal, he adds a couple of Neo Classical solos, that's not making a fusion or a merge, just adding a Baroque topping to his Metal tracks.
Cheers
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 19 2008 at 01:37
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The T
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:27 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Avantgardehead wrote:
I don't understand why people want Metallica here. In their heyday they were thrash metal with neo-classical guitar solos and that's about it. In my mind, it wouldn't make sense to put a band here just because their solos sounded progressive...
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Neo Classical solos is not Prog necessarilly, there have to be many other things more, hey lets add Walter Murphy because he performed a Disco version of Beethoven's Fifth!!
Yngwie Malmsteen added some NEO CLASSICAL SOLOS, but the structure is just Metal, not more, not less.
A Prog band or composition has to consider the whole stucture, not just a couple of solos artificially added over a 100% Metal structure.
In other words Malmsteen adds a Bach solo while the rest of the band is backuping him with 100% metal paraphernalia that has very little or absolutely no relation with the solo
Iv�n |
Avantgardehead's point was about METALLICA... not about Malmsteen....
Even though, as absurd as it sounds, that point doesn't work for the intended target (metallica) but WORKS for Malmsteen, as he's the one with classical solos and metal versions of classical...
I think the point about the solos has been made. Prog-metal would never add Malmsteen... I speak for myself... 1/3 of the team disagrees, and I guess everybody will disagree with his inclusion in PM....
About prog-related, that's another matter... One that could be discussed when time allows for it...
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micky
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:23 |
The T wrote:
. But guitar virtuosiy alone is not a factor for prog-metal (if it was, let's bring all the Iced Earth, Hammerfall, Primal Fear, Helloween, etc to PA... and believe me, I like some of them, but this is not speedy-fingers-archives.com or shreddingarchives.com...) |
exactly.. it is his impact, his importance, as David said.. that is what sets him above others and make him a worthy addition here.. and keeps others from being considered ... we'd hate to become shreddingarchives.com hahahhah good one Teo...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:23 |
Avantgardehead wrote:
In my mind, it wouldn't make sense to put a band here just because their solos sounded progressive...
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Neo Classical solos is not Prog necessarilly, there have to be many other things more, hey lets add Walter Murphy because he performed a Disco version of Beethoven's Fifth!!
Yngwie Malmsteen added some NEO CLASSICAL SOLOS, but the structure is just Metal, not more, not less.
A Prog band or composition has to consider the whole stucture, not just a couple of solos artificially added over a 100% Metal structure.
In other words Malmsteen adds a Bach solo while the rest of the band is backuping him with 100% metal paraphernalia that has very little or absolutely no relation with the solo
Yngwie blends nothing, that solo could be added almost over any genre.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 19 2008 at 01:25
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The T
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:19 |
Avantgardehead wrote:
I don't understand why people want Metallica here. In their heyday they were thrash metal with neo-classical guitar solos and that's about it. In my mind, it wouldn't make sense to put a band here just because their solos sounded progressive...
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It's obvious that, while you surely know your avant-garde, your concept of progressive-metal is limited... and also, that you haven't heard Metallica.
But that's another discussion for another thread which is innecessary as the owners don't want them here.
As for Yngwie, I would support an addition in Prog-related. I think he has enough merits. But guitar virtuosiy alone is not a factor for prog-metal (if it was, let's bring all the Iced Earth, Hammerfall, Primal Fear, Helloween, etc to PA... and believe me, I like some of them, but this is not speedy-fingers-archives.com or shreddingarchives.com...)
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micky
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:12 |
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exactly Teo, I didn't see him as Prog Metal earlier.. not as you have defined it at least... but could be considered prog enough to merit finding a place for him. Malmsteen.. in mixing guitar virtuosity.. metal if you want to call it that.. and classical influences.... wait.... a decade earlier.. didn't doing about the same get you called 'prog'.. what changed running up to 1984. It isn't PM ...again.. I think most would agree. However he might be close enough to prog perhaps to be.. .as I said.. a great addtion to PR...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atavachron
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:03 |
The T wrote:
I think that Yngwie Malmsteen should not be in Prog-Metal.
He's a master. He has done a lot for the instrument. For GUITAR playing.
What we're not about INSTRUMENTS. This is not prog-guitar-archives.com. We're about the whole thing. The music. And the music is heavy metal, heavy power virtuosic symphonic bombastic whatever grandiose term metal. The structures are typical, the songs are typical, it's the PLAYING that is superb. But, again, this is not Instrument-archives.com
I think for his influence he should be considered (CONSIDERED) fr Prog Related.
As Micky said, if Metallica is not here (why I still don't know.. oH, wait! It's the name...), Malsteen can't really fit. I know, that's a weak argument, but an argument nevertheless.
As for prog-metal, there are groups out there that should deserve a consideration EVEN for prog-related before Malsteen (Mercyful Fate, to name a relatively popular one).
I don't run the website. I understand why some say prog-related shouldn't even be discussed. I say: Malsteem could work as prog-related (he HAS influenced the playing of xillions of guitarist in the prog-metal world) but his MUSIC is not progressive-metal. |
I'm glad you're addressing that, cause there are many virtuosos and shred-meisters that could be considered progressive, but you guys have to have some parameters and I respect that
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Avantgardehead
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 00:53 |
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I don't understand why people want Metallica here. In their heyday they were thrash metal with neo-classical guitar solos and that's about it. In my mind, it wouldn't make sense to put a band here just because their solos sounded progressive...
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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The T
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 00:40 |
I think that Yngwie Malmsteen should not be in Prog-Metal.
He's a master. He has done a lot for the instrument. For GUITAR playing.
What we're not about INSTRUMENTS. This is not prog-guitar-archives.com. We're about the whole thing. The music. And the music is heavy metal, heavy power virtuosic symphonic bombastic whatever grandiose term metal. The structures are typical, the songs are typical, it's the PLAYING that is superb. But, again, this is not Instrument-archives.com
I think for his influence he should be considered (CONSIDERED) fr Prog Related.
As Micky said, if Metallica is not here (why I still don't know.. oH, wait! It's the name...), Malsteen can't really fit. I know, that's a weak argument, but an argument nevertheless.
As for prog-metal, there are groups out there that should deserve a consideration EVEN for prog-related before Malsteen (Mercyful Fate, to name a relatively popular one).
I don't run the website. I understand why some say prog-related shouldn't even be discussed. I say: Malsteem could work as prog-related (he HAS influenced the playing of xillions of guitarist in the prog-metal world) but his MUSIC is not progressive-metal.
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Atavachron
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 00:31 |
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yes Ivan, you're quite correct ..no worries, I just felt like debating it
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 19 2008 at 00:28 |
Atavachron wrote:
I don't doubt it, but did they bring something as new to the table as Malmsteen did? Or is much of it piled upon every metal guitarist before them ..what Yngwie did was as new to rock guitar as Eddie and Randy Rhoads had been ..it's impact we're really talking here, on top of technical innovations
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In first´place I will keep my opinion because I'm not sure if Malmsteen should be here but just have a question:
- Is bringing something new to music?
- Being better than most or every METAL guitarist?
- Doing something new in Rock?
- Having impact?
Being Prog or Prog Related?
You have said it, what Yngwie did is as new as what Eddie Van Halen did.....But is Eddie Van Halen here or should be just because he has a great technique and a lot of fans?
Yes many people consider Malmsteen the peak of the crop in Metal guitar players...But is this Prog or Prog Related?
I still believe Prog Related is not a priority here, there are more pages about Prog Related bands than about real Prog bands, there are lots of Collaborators silently working hard on Prog bands (for weeks, months and even years) but when a determined team informs about the additios and inprovements of the PROGRESSIVE ROCK GENRES, nobody gives a damn, it's frustrating to see how this threads vanish after two or three replies of the same members.
On the other hand it's enough to say Toto, Boston or Malmsteen to have a lot of responses, that's why the forum is becoming more boring and lack of interest lately.
People complained when Art Rock became the dumping place for bands that where not accepted by other genres (at least then this bands were 100% Prog), but now we are using Prog Related as dumping ground for popular rejected bands.
"Hey, X band was rejected by Z Team.....Don't worry, we always have the back door called Prog Related"
I don't ask to leave Prog Related outside, but is not Progressive Rock our first priority?
My two cents.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 19 2008 at 00:40
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micky
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Posted: January 18 2008 at 23:53 |
Atavachron wrote:
HughesJB4 wrote:
Jeff Loomis from Nevermore, with not only insane lead chops, but incredible heavy metal rhythm guitar prowess and one of most accurate and precise 7 string virtuosos live. Jasun Tipton, of Prog metal band Zero Hour fame (listed on Progarchive.com as well ), another 7 string virtuoso, with absolutely insane sweep picking chops, as well as awesome rhythm guitar capabilities. Rusty Cooley of Outworld fame, a 7 and 8 string virtuoso, with chops superior to Malmsteen's in sweep-picking, alternate picking, two hand tapping, legato and even rhythm guitar ability as well. |
I don't doubt it, but did they bring something as new to the table as Malmsteen did? Or is much of it piled upon every metal guitarist before them ..what Yngwie did was as new to rock guitar as Eddie and Randy Rhoads had been ..it's impact we're really talking here, on top of technical innovations
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very well said David 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atavachron
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Posted: January 18 2008 at 23:46 |
HughesJB4 wrote:
Jeff Loomis from Nevermore, with not only insane lead chops, but incredible heavy metal rhythm guitar prowess and one of most accurate and precise 7 string virtuosos live. Jasun Tipton, of Prog metal band Zero Hour fame (listed on Progarchive.com as well), another 7 string virtuoso, with absolutely insane sweep picking chops, as well as awesome rhythm guitar capabilities. Rusty Cooley of Outworld fame, a 7 and 8 string virtuoso, with chops superior to Malmsteen's in sweep-picking, alternate picking, two hand tapping, legato and even rhythm guitar ability as well. |
I don't doubt it, but did they bring something as new to the table as Malmsteen did? Or is much of it piled upon every metal guitarist before them ..what Yngwie did was as new to rock guitar as Eddie and Randy Rhoads had been ..it's impact we're really talking here, on top of technical innovations
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micky
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Posted: January 18 2008 at 23:24 |
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well as usual.... I'm going to disagree with Ivan yet again...
he is not a 'prog metal' arist.... I think most people can see that.. he doesn't fit what I come to find what prog metal is about in my explorations and following what that team does... and prog related is actually a good damn good fit for him.
The Prog Metal team should have a say. .. first dibs if you will..... if they reject ..(as I'm sure they probably will.. christ.. if Metaliica didn't fit PM.. will Malmsteen hahaha) then I'll submit this to the admin team for a vote. He like some other artists here.. is a long overdue addition here....
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 18 2008 at 22:50 |
I believe that if Yngwie Malmsteen should be included it should be in Propg Metal, anywhere else is silly, he's bassically a neo Classical Metal Guitar player, so if he goes anywhere is in Prog Metal.
Prog Related is not the place for the rejeted artists of any sub-genre, so if Prog Metal doesn't want him, he shouldn't be added anywhere else because it would be misleading, we have already three Prog Metal sub-genres, so if he doesn't fit in any one despite his 100% Metal background, he doesn't belong in Prog Archives.
And again The if Sabbath why not Malmsteen argument was, is and will be flawed, any artist inclusion is decided by his own merits, not by comparison.
BTW: His technicality, skills, greatness or how much anybody can like his first album, is not a valid argument for inclusion.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 18 2008 at 22:52
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Petrovsk Mizinski
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Posted: January 18 2008 at 22:35 |
While certainly Malmsteen is still regarded as a highly technical, as a fan of not just Prog rock/metal, but also Heavy Metal in general, i can easily say there are more than just "a few" newer players that have surpassed Malmsteen's technicality. I could in fact probably name a list that is longer than my arm, but I'll just list some of the more well known Metal guitarist virtuosos that have exceeded Malmsteen's technical skill. Jeff Loomis from Nevermore, with not only insane lead chops, but incredible heavy metal rhythm guitar prowess and one of most accurate and precise 7 string virtuosos live. Jasun Tipton, of Prog metal band Zero Hour fame (listed on Progarchive.com as well ), another 7 string virtuoso, with absolutely insane sweep picking chops, as well as awesome rhythm guitar capabilities. Rusty Cooley of Outworld fame, a 7 and 8 string virtuoso, with chops superior to Malmsteen's in sweep-picking, alternate picking, two hand tapping, legato and even rhythm guitar ability as well.
Edited by HughesJB4 - January 18 2008 at 22:37
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Yngwie Malmsteen
