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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2009 at 04:36
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
If I said Atheism is Bull sh!t, you would jump as many other atheists here, of course I would never do that, because I respect beliefs and disbeliefs for equal.
 
Iván
 
 
 
 
I don't think I (or the vast malority of atheists) would react the way you did, Ivan, simply respect your wrong opinion and the right to express it.Tongue
 
 


I'm no atheist or anything. Anyone can, and should say whatever they want. It wouldn't affect my confused mind. I really don't have much respect for easily offended people, but I know there's plenty of them, so I try to not step on their precious toes. Just to make life simpler for myself.

If there's anything but nothingness awaiting when I'm finished here on earth, I certainly can't imagine some God condemning me to hell for not choosing (or growing up in the right environment, or place)  to worship when I was here. That would be some vain, evil, pathetic supreme being.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2009 at 04:18
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:



First off, I never told a specific person their beliefs were BS, I was using my own prior beliefs as a template.  It was an over-arching statement, obviously not in response the the views of any one person.  Regardless, if someone told me my beliefs were BS, I would recognize it for what it is: an opinion.  I have an opinion, they have an opinion, and I'm strong enough in my opinions that someone expressing a different opinion isn't going to affect me.
 
Since the first post and to be honest since a long time ago, I said I believe in the catholic religion, you replied to MY POST saying Catholic religion beliefs are BS...Then you told a specific person ME, that my beliefs are bull sh!t.
 
If I said Atheism is Bull sh!t, you would jump as many other atheists here, of course I would never do that, because I respect beliefs and disbeliefs for equal.
 
Iván
 
 
 
 
I don't think I (or the vast malority of atheists) would react the way you did, Ivan, simply respect your wrong opinion and the right to express it.Tongue
 
 Atheists have this peace about them that no others have. We don't have beliefs, we don't have faith and certainly do not need blind faith. 
 
Since there is nothing as creator, it can not be insulted, since there is .... Nothing. Same thing with our beliefs, since we don't have any.
 
 
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
 
You are arational person Sean, we had a 15 pages debate without a single insult or offense, let thjem attack the institution as much as they want, but calling my beliefs bull sh!t, is an insult and you know that.

Iván
 
 
But your beliefs have been imbedded into you,  by a cult (i don't make much difference between a cult, a religion or a sect) right from childhood until though death by a thorough brainwashing (no insult intended, just calling a cat a catWink) by repeating you and pounding you into submission (figuratively of course and but then again forcefully as well)  into believing whatever the "holy scriptures" say
 
This is like embrigading you right from baptism (this is mark that the christian use to forewarn others cults that YOU a baby BELONG to that particular faith, so you're taken)  and then the doctrine/dogma is slowly poured into your brains like some kind of drug
 
You'll probably not recognize yourself into this embrigading process, but you were part of itCry (whether you like it or not) as I was also!!Dead.
Difference is, I managed to escape around 8 or 9 years old.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Sean Trane - March 17 2009 at 04:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2009 at 04:17
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
Since the first post and to be honest since a long time ago, I said I believe in the catholic religion, you replied to MY POST saying Catholic religion beliefs are BS...Then you told a specific person ME, that my beliefs are bull sh!t.

 
He didn't write any of that to you. You have to be a little selfcentered to actually believe that.

I love a lot of things related to the Catholic Church: the art, the architecture, the music, all its beauty...
Its not meant as a compliment to you that I think your religion has many beautiful buildings, and that Palestrina, Monteverdi mm composed beautiful sacred music. (I'm going to a church-concert later today, Pergolesi: Stabat Mater). I have no respect for a lot of other things: mostly the misuse of power  by many of their leaders in all kinds of disgusting ways, their fatal ban of condom use etc...

Neither of these things, positive or negative, relates to directly to someone (like you). So you shouldn't think: oh nice, he is complimenting and respecting my faith, or: He is attacking my faith!

Btw: I didn't manage to read your long post on top of the page, properly. Its a complete mess. Please, try and clean it up.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 23:44
Originally posted by spammer21 spammer21 wrote:

If you really did think they were equal, you wouldn't be Catholic. Wink
 
Maybe if you read before speaking you would have read that I said "I respect beliefs and disbeliefs for equal." ....Just in case you haven't understood, respectimg equallyferent to believe they are equal.
 
Originally posted by spammer21 spammer21 wrote:

How true. In fact, (and I fear I'm getting involved in this little debate - I'm just having fun reading it) I think the only person who is being insulting to any individual in this thread is Ivan_Melgar_M. He said this to Sasquamo:

That's different, probably you don't understand it, something that doesn't amaze me at all having read some of your previous posts on other threads, but that's not the way we act hera,or at least most of us..
 
Again, it's better to read before answering, I was talking to rocktopus not to Sasquamo, just quoted Sasquamo's `post to make my point.
 
It's nice to reply and "join little debates", but better do it after reading what's being said, to whom is being said and what happened in the forum before March 12.
 
 
 
Iván
 
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 16 2009 at 23:55
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 22:34
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

I still fail to grasp how insulting certain religious beliefs can be called a personal insult.  If I have a different opinion, I should be able to state that opinion, and if something makes me angry, I should be allowed to use an angry word to describe it.  Did I ever once insult a specific person?  No, all I did was state my opinion about beliefs that I think are stupid.  I never said that people who believe in those things are stupid, because that's not true.


How true. In fact, (and I fear I'm getting involved in this little debate - I'm just having fun reading it) I think the only person who is being insulting to any individual in this thread is Ivan_Melgar_M. He said this to Sasquamo:

That's different, probably you don't understand it, something that doesn't amaze me at all having read some of your previous posts on other threads, but that's not the way we act hera,or at least most of us..

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 22:32
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

If I said Atheism is Bull sh!t, you would jump as many other atheists here, of course I would never do that, because I respect beliefs and disbeliefs for equal.
 
Iván
 
 


If you really did think they were equal, you wouldn't be Catholic. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 22:27
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
Satan is mostly a Christian deity (even tough some version is present always in other religions) so believing in him without believing in Christianity is quite illogical and incoherent.
 
 
I believe is originally a Jewish antio divinity:
 
Quote

First of all, the Hebrew word satan (sin-tet-nun sofit) means an adversary or accuser. It is used this way in Numbers 22:22. "And G-d’s anger was kindled because he went; and the angel of the L-rd stood in the way as an *adversary* against him...." The word marked with *'s and translated as adversary is satan (actually l'satan, l' being a prefix that in the context gives the meaning "as"). Likewise in Numbers 22:32, part of the same story about Bilaam.

 
Also known as Lucifer in Isaiah 14-12
 
But almost every culture has his anti divinity.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 16 2009 at 22:28
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 19:30
Originally posted by James James wrote:

Has anyone ever thought that perhaps we may have it all the wrong way around and that what people think of as God, is in fact Satan and that Satan is in fact God?

I know it sounds silly but it would answer the question why God allows so much crap on this Earth.  Satan (i.e. God) meanwhile sits comfortably on his/her throne and laughs at the worshipers of God (who is in fact Satan).

Please do not feel annoyed or insulted by this idea, I am only being trite and deliberately obtuse. Wink
 
Satan is mostly a Christian deity (even tough some version is present always in other religions) so believing in him without believing in Christianity is quite illogical and incoherent.
 
If there was no God but there was Satan, he would become God, therefore, there would be a belief in a god. Just change the name from Yahve or whatevr to Satan, beliaal or whatever.
 
I stand against much of christianity and the catholic religion.... Don't believe in their god... Nor do I believe satan could exist....
 
But some people choose his name for a collection of ideas much more logical than people who don't know them would believe...  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 18:33
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:



First off, I never told a specific person their beliefs were BS, I was using my own prior beliefs as a template.  It was an over-arching statement, obviously not in response the the views of any one person.  Regardless, if someone told me my beliefs were BS, I would recognize it for what it is: an opinion.  I have an opinion, they have an opinion, and I'm strong enough in my opinions that someone expressing a different opinion isn't going to affect me.
 
Since the first post and to be honest since a long time ago, I said I believe in the catholic religion, you replied to MY POST saying Catholic religion beliefs are BS...Then you told a specific person ME, that my beliefs are bull sh!t.
 
If I said Atheism is Bull sh!t, you would jump as many other atheists here, of course I would never do that, because I respect beliefs and disbeliefs for equal.
 
Iván
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 16 2009 at 18:37
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 18:17
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

I still fail to grasp how insulting certain religious beliefs can be called a personal insult.  If I have a different opinion, I should be able to state that opinion, and if something makes me angry, I should be allowed to use an angry word to describe it.  Did I ever once insult a specific person?  No, all I did was state my opinion about beliefs that I think are stupid.  I never said that people who believe in those things are stupid, because that's not true.

Well, I don't know what YOU believe in, but whatever it is, how would you feel if someone came along and told you that what you believe in is nothing but a load of BS? And don't go and tell me "I believe in nothing"; I won't buy that. And if you come up with "I believe in nothing but myself" then it would definitely be personal if someone told you your beliefs are BS, won't you agree?



First off, I never told a specific person their beliefs were BS, I was using my own prior beliefs as a template.  It was an over-arching statement, obviously not in response the the views of any one person.  Regardless, if someone told me my beliefs were BS, I would recognize it for what it is: an opinion.  I have an opinion, they have an opinion, and I'm strong enough in my opinions that someone expressing a different opinion isn't going to affect me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 17:11
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I say we start a holy war over this topic, who's with me or against me? Tongue
 
Tra la laaaaa!
 
 
 
LOL
 

Hold on, I'll get my bus pass Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 17:07
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

I still fail to grasp how insulting certain religious beliefs can be called a personal insult.  If I have a different opinion, I should be able to state that opinion, and if something makes me angry, I should be allowed to use an angry word to describe it.  Did I ever once insult a specific person?  No, all I did was state my opinion about beliefs that I think are stupid.  I never said that people who believe in those things are stupid, because that's not true.

Well, I don't know what YOU believe in, but whatever it is, how would you feel if someone came along and told you that what you believe in is nothing but a load of BS? And don't go and tell me "I believe in nothing"; I won't buy that. And if you come up with "I believe in nothing but myself" then it would definitely be personal if someone told you your beliefs are BS, won't you agree?



Edited by BaldFriede - March 16 2009 at 17:18


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 15:53
I still fail to grasp how insulting certain religious beliefs can be called a personal insult.  If I have a different opinion, I should be able to state that opinion, and if something makes me angry, I should be allowed to use an angry word to describe it.  Did I ever once insult a specific person?  No, all I did was state my opinion about beliefs that I think are stupid.  I never said that people who believe in those things are stupid, because that's not true.

Also, I agree with you that the reasons I gave for how religion made me fearful are absurd and don't make any sense, but they are also the truth.  Feelings are complicated.  Maybe it doesn't make any sense for me to say that I couldn't tell if I was sincere or not, but I didn't, and I know many many people who feel the exact same way.  I really can't explain.  It's like, the more I delved down and thought, I started thinking about how getting forgiveness was helping me and I wanted forgiveness for my own good, but I truly was sorry and wanted to make things better, but I also wanted to get rid of my sins, so maybe I'm sincere but maybe I'm not...it's extremely confusing and probably would make a lot more sense if I didn't analyze and just ran with it.  So if you want, you can make the argument that me and all those other people "just don't get it," but that doesn't change the fact that those beliefs were having extremely negative effects on me and the other people I know who currently hold them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 15:33
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I say we start a holy war over this topic, who's with me or against me? Tongue
 
Tra la laaaaa!
 
 
 
LOL
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O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 15:26
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

^ My only question to your statement Jean is....." If God indeed is such a superior being, then how can we mere humans be expected to grasp his/her/its true nature at all"....
 
Well if he/she is such a superior being then why create such a flawed self destructive species? If there is a God then how can his/her perfect ' creations' be allowed under a universal law to ethnic cleanse, practice paedaphilia,butcher, rape, suicide bomb etc etc. My problem herein lies in that any ' superior' being should prohibit such actions that the subconscious active state of humans and consequences shakes the very foundation of Nature itself.
 
Maybe this superior being if exists will ask for our forgiveness one day for not intervening....Very interesting discussion though if we can all avoid personal insultsSmile

If the world is flawed, then you obviously have ideas how it could be better. Why don't you tell us about them?
Goodness, easier for me to judge and have an opinion versus a solution to better it! Still I believe it was Bertrand Russell who wrote that only when human beings seek out Truth as form of relaxation does this place stand a hope in hell. I would also like to requalify that I think the human species is flawed not the world so mankind having a hope in hell. Unfortunately our conscious state has moved beyond the realms of what we could put down to natural order and therefore we now compromise the wellbeing of the planet and other species.
 
Interesting link you posted re the conversation with God and he/she perhaps acknowledging potential errors in creation based on the provision of free will. I have not finished reading that yet but immediately I find myself defending the man's position. I am looking forward to finishing it.
 
To better the human condition......? Evolution...who knows.....political /eonomic transparency, social accountability on a global scale ( Not using the totally inept UNAngry), invest in colonizing other planets, fix this one first. I could go on and on. But I do firmly wish that there was some kind of universal ' God like" responsibility to not let evil go unaccounted for. Accountable NOW and not in some cosy airport lounge afterlife judgement council.
 
Could go on all day, but the physical world dictates and  I need to pay the billsSmile


Edited by Chris S - March 16 2009 at 15:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 14:44
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

^ My only question to your statement Jean is....." If God indeed is such a superior being, then how can we mere humans be expected to grasp his/her/its true nature at all"....
 
Well if he/she is such a superior being then why create such a flawed self destructive species? If there is a God then how can his/her perfect ' creations' be allowed under a universal law to ethnic cleanse, practice paedaphilia,butcher, rape, suicide bomb etc etc. My problem herein lies in that any ' superior' being should prohibit such actions that the subconscious active state of humans and consequences shakes the very foundation of Nature itself.
 
Maybe this superior being if exists will ask for our forgiveness one day for not intervening....Very interesting discussion though if we can all avoid personal insultsSmile

If the world is flawed, then you obviously have ideas how it could be better. Why don't you tell us about them?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 13:59
I say we start a holy war over this topic, who's with me or against me? Tongue
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 13:48
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

^ My only question to your statement Jean is....." If God indeed is such a superior being, then how can we mere humans be expected to grasp his/her/its true nature at all"....
 
Well if he/she is such a superior being then why create such a flawed self destructive species? If there is a God then how can his/her perfect ' creations' be allowed under a universal law to ethnic cleanse, practice paedaphilia,butcher, rape, suicide bomb etc etc. My problem herein lies in that any ' superior' being should prohibit such actions that the subconscious active state of humans and consequences shakes the very foundation of Nature itself.
 
Maybe this superior being if exists will ask for our forgiveness one day for not intervening....Very interesting discussion though if we can all avoid personal insultsSmile

this topic, and a lot of other interesting topics, is discussed in Raymond Smullyan's excellent essay "Is God a Taoist"? the essay is in the form of a fictional dialogue between a mortal and God.
http://www.newbanner.com/SecHumSCM/IsGodTaoist.html


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 13:22
Has anyone ever thought that perhaps we may have it all the wrong way around and that what people think of as God, is in fact Satan and that Satan is in fact God?

I know it sounds silly but it would answer the question why God allows so much crap on this Earth.  Satan (i.e. God) meanwhile sits comfortably on his/her throne and laughs at the worshipers of God (who is in fact Satan).

Please do not feel annoyed or insulted by this idea, I am only being trite and deliberately obtuse. Wink


Edited by James - March 16 2009 at 13:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2009 at 12:51
^ My only question to your statement Jean is....." If God indeed is such a superior being, then how can we mere humans be expected to grasp his/her/its true nature at all"....
 
Well if he/she is such a superior being then why create such a flawed self destructive species? If there is a God then how can his/her perfect ' creations' be allowed under a universal law to ethnic cleanse, practice paedaphilia,butcher, rape, suicide bomb etc etc. My problem herein lies in that any ' superior' being should prohibit such actions that the subconscious active state of humans and consequences shakes the very foundation of Nature itself.
 
Maybe this superior being if exists will ask for our forgiveness one day for not intervening....Very interesting discussion though if we can all avoid personal insultsSmile


Edited by Chris S - March 16 2009 at 12:53
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