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Sean Trane 
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20602
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 Posted: March 17 2009 at 11:24 |
 BaldJean wrote:
Sean, your atheism is as much of a dogma as any religion. and to arrive at your atheism you were just as "brainwashed" as religious people.
you also make the same mistake several other people made: you confuse the teachings of a religion with the belief in the existence of God. it is totally possible to believe in a deity without being member of any religion
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Nope!! There is no written rules or laws to tell you what you have to think in atheism, since there is nothing to believe in.
I don't think you're able to grasp this: Atheism is not a belief, a religion a dogma and a doctrine. There is no creator, period. You don't read books to know there is no creator >>> I've never seen any, nor have I looked for them >>> although I'm sure there must be some.
And I don't make the mistake of confusing your form of paganism (no insult intended, I assure you >> I even call myself a pagan to gntly ruffle christian's feathers) with some kind of deity that replaces the god (s).
Actually I prefer a certain primary sort of paganism that worshipped females deities (since they gave life) rather than all of those monotheism that have kidnapped the gods by the males and almost systematically exclude females from the clergies in order to "control" them better.
BaldJean wrote:
Spammer21 wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
James wrote:
Jean, I feel somewhat offended by the fact you say I've been "brainwashed". I'm also confused as to how that is so?
Nobody told me there isn't a God. I have always felt that way. Does that mean I've brainwashed myself? 
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James, it was not I who started on "brainwashing", it was Sean; I just answered to him.
as to "I have always felt that way": sorry, but I do not believe that. you may have felt like that for a long time, but did you feel like that as a kid too?
as to "nobody told me there is no God": I don't quite buy that either. did the thought "there is no God" just arrive in your head all by itself? or was it not rather that you came to the conclusion because of books you read, experiences you had and whatever else?
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Everyone is born an atheist. You have to be taught to believe.
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I sincerely doubt that, and there is no proof for it whatever. If everyone was born an atheist, why did religions come up in the first place? you won't find a single culture without religion
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Jean, you've probly been born from religious parents, whether strongly or weaker practicing) so you were brought up from day one into this christian athmosphere that permeated through your skin, probably as you were still breastfeeding from your mom, than later being gently scolded using god's 10 commendments as rules and such things. >>> the brainwashing words might sound brutal, but it is very insiduously done.
I lived in a house without crosses or crucifixes or any "reminder of god" artefacts in the house and when scolded for something I did wrong, I either received a slap or got some kind of atheist-sermon.
The only reason why I was submitted to church was through school (this was gentle and not obligatory as in the 60's & 70's, even catholic schools were cool on this) and my grandparents (very much practicing catholics) and the pressures they put on my parents, but they never rejected their grandchildren or try to force their beliefs on us.
As for your last comment, religion was invented in answering (or trying to) your fears and superstitions. It quickly became a power tool, since the "shaman" could tell anyone why the volcano was acting up >>> I t's because Randy took something that belonged to my cousin Rudolph and the Volcano will keep acting up until Randy gives it back, (plus a penalty for forgiveness ). This happened in all civilzation were the control of superstitions was a (sometimes good) counterweight to brute force by the "kings".
Edited by Sean Trane - March 17 2009 at 11:32
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 10:36 |
James wrote:
Yes I did feel that way as a child. I have never believed in a deity or followed a religion (and no, Atheism isn't a religion). Yes, my father is also a non-believer and may have swayed me (perhaps sub-consciously) but he certainly did not brainwash me. He never preached his non-beliefs to me. Nobody in my immediate family ever speaks of deities or religion and of course, Jesus and Christianity may have been mentioned at school (I came across an old school book from 1986 of mine earlier today and in it I mention Jesus) but I do not believe I once thought of him as anything more than a fictional character. We had to say prayers and I always had my eyes open and looked around bemused at everyone else. This was when I was aged 8 or 9.
So no, I have always felt that way.
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I didn't say atheism is a religion, I said it is a dogma. look up dogma in a dictionary, or let me save you the time and post it here: | 1. | a system of principles or tenets, as of a church. |
| 2. | a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption. | | 3. | prescribed doctrine: political dogma. | | 4. | a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle. |
wouldn't you agree that definition 4 applies? as to the brainwashing: that was a reply to Sean; he spoke of brainwashing. and of course you were influenced by your father and your surroundings, just like everyone else. absolutely nobody grows up uninfluenced by anybody. there was probably only one exception in history, and that was the sad case of Kaspar Hauser
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 10:27 |
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Spammer21
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 12 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 21
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:56 |
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:50 |
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Yes I did feel that way as a child. I have never believed in a deity or followed a religion (and no, Atheism isn't a religion). Yes, my father is also a non-believer and may have swayed me (perhaps sub-consciously) but he certainly did not brainwash me. He never preached his non-beliefs to me. Nobody in my immediate family ever speaks of deities or religion and of course, Jesus and Christianity may have been mentioned at school (I came across an old school book from 1986 of mine earlier today and in it I mention Jesus) but I do not believe I once thought of him as anything more than a fictional character. We had to say prayers and I always had my eyes open and looked around bemused at everyone else. This was when I was aged 8 or 9.
So no, I have always felt that way.
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Spammer21
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 12 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 21
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:41 |
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:29 |
James wrote:
Jean, I feel somewhat offended by the fact you say I've been "brainwashed". I'm also confused as to how that is so?
Nobody told me there isn't a God. I have always felt that way. Does that mean I've brainwashed myself?
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James, it was not I who started on "brainwashing", it was Sean; I just answered to him. as to "I have always felt that way": sorry, but I do not believe that. you may have felt like that for a long time, but did you feel like that as a kid too? as to "nobody told me there is no God": I don't quite buy that either. did the thought "there is no God" just arrive in your head all by itself? or was it not rather that you came to the conclusion because of books you read, experiences you had and whatever else?
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:16 |
I’m cleaning, I’m cleaning again.
I’m cleaning, I’m cleaning my brain.
Pretty soon now, I will be bitter.
Pretty soon now, will be a quitter.
Pretty soon now, I will be bitter.
You can’t see it ’til it’s finished
Talking Heads
I think we need to get this thread back on track, the atheist bus chick. 
or how about Mrs. Crabtree?
Edited by Slartibartfast - March 17 2009 at 09:19
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:02 |
Jean, I feel somewhat offended by the fact you say I've been "brainwashed". I'm also confused as to how that is so? Nobody told me there isn't a God. I have always felt that way. Does that mean I've brainwashed myself?
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:00 |
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Sean, your atheism is as much of a dogma as any religion. and to arrive at your atheism you were just as "brainwashed" as religious people.
you also make the same mistake several other people made: you confuse the teachings of a religion with the belief in the existence of God. it is totally possible to believe in a deity without being member of any religion
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 08:43 |
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20602
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 08:18 |
BaldJean wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sasquamo wrote:
First off, I never told a specific person their beliefs were BS, I was using my own prior beliefs as a template. It was an over-arching statement, obviously not in response the the views of any one person. Regardless, if someone told me my beliefs were BS, I would recognize it for what it is: an opinion. I have an opinion, they have an opinion, and I'm strong enough in my opinions that someone expressing a different opinion isn't going to affect me.
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Since the first post and to be honest since a long time ago, I said I believe in the catholic religion, you replied to MY POST saying Catholic religion beliefs are BS...Then you told a specific person ME, that my beliefs are bull sh!t.
If I said Atheism is Bull sh!t, you would jump as many other atheists here, of course I would never do that, because I respect beliefs and disbeliefs for equal.
Iván
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Atheists have this peace about them that no others have. We don't have beliefs, we don't have faith and certainly do not need blind faith.
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sorry, Sean, but dead wrong. I have met this kind of peace among lots of deeply religious people. and why? simply because they had faith in the true sense of the word
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All the more power  to them as long as they don't impose their "faiths" on others is my first answer.
However if these people are at peace with themselves, it's most likely that they've endoctrined better and deeper. You call içt faith!! I call it dogma or doctrine or even brainwashing. In either case it's fine if they don't impose it on anybody else, including their spouse and kids!!!
BTW; Atheists don't need faith to be in peace.  
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 08:02 |
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in direct response to Sasquamo and some of his posts: if you felt scared when you believed because of what you were being told by some people you should have taken a look at the bible:
Matthew 7:15-20
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
it seems obvious to me that "trees" relates to those people who told you these things and their "fruits" was what they caused in you.
oh, and I have to repeat it again: I am not a Christian myself. but I studied the bible and know it quite well
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 02 2008
Location: Going Bananas
Status: Offline
Points: 24824
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 06:08 |
^Truly. The Bible speaks about this peace (Philippians 4:6-7). The next step is to tell faith from religion.
And I think there is no need to react short-fused when somebody calls a religion BS. I can imagine that one can respect a person without having any respect for his religion.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 05:58 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sasquamo wrote:
First off, I never told a specific person their beliefs were BS, I was using my own prior beliefs as a template. It was an over-arching statement, obviously not in response the the views of any one person. Regardless, if someone told me my beliefs were BS, I would recognize it for what it is: an opinion. I have an opinion, they have an opinion, and I'm strong enough in my opinions that someone expressing a different opinion isn't going to affect me.
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Since the first post and to be honest since a long time ago, I said I believe in the catholic religion, you replied to MY POST saying Catholic religion beliefs are BS...Then you told a specific person ME, that my beliefs are bull sh!t.
If I said Atheism is Bull sh!t, you would jump as many other atheists here, of course I would never do that, because I respect beliefs and disbeliefs for equal.
Iván
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Atheists have this peace about them that no others have. We don't have beliefs, we don't have faith and certainly do not need blind faith.
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sorry, Sean, but dead wrong. I have met this kind of peace among lots of deeply religious people. and why? simply because they had faith in the true sense of the word
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 05:52 |
progmetalhead wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
you are wrong; this is only true (and not even in the sense you use it) for all religions who are of Jewish offspring.
anyway, that was not what I said at all. all religions ascribe certain properties to their deity, thus creating an image of it, would you not agree? now let us just assume for a moment that there is a God indeed, then who says he or she or it is as any of these religions proclaim? if God indeed is such a superior being, then how can we mere humans be expected to grasp his/her/its true nature at all? it is just as impossible for us as it is impossible for an ant to grasp the nature of a human being.
of course it has to be noted that you, as several others before, picked on a certain religion and generalized from there
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In your opinion Jean and respected. However, I beg to differ.
Far from being generalistic this is what many of us are taught as children. Why should we, therefore, think any different? But then, as always, I find religious people pick what they choose to say and ignore what they don't want to hear or read. |
um - is that not exactly what I said? they create their own image of God. and so do non-believers - they reject the image they have of God
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 05:20 |
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^Guess so.
Can't really be bothered to read the whole thread to be honest, I missed almost half of it because I don't want to sift through all the huge posts.
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 05:18 |
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^ There's plenty of people agreeing with eachother,
just read. But the catholics and the atheists aren't agreeing very often.
And your contribution just now, makes no difference in that department.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 05:05 |
I love these topics that go for 50-100 pages because no one can say "well,
maybe you're right in that aspect at least" and even just agree with each other a little. They only stop when people stop posting in them. I agree with what Sean Trane about the brainwashing thing. The amount of people I knew that were heavy religious and one day got out of it and finally were able to see things from the 'outside' perspective without coloration all told me what a load of bullsh*t the religion in particular was and how the hell they even believed that stuff in the first place. There you have it, a post that finally says someone kinda agrees with someone, in this case me with Sean Trane. Not every post has to be "only I'm right and all other opinions are worthless":P Now, didn't that feel better? It did for me, hehe. But what do I know, I'm just an atheist 
Edited by HughesJB4 - March 17 2009 at 05:06
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progmetalhead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 15 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 2081
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Posted: March 17 2009 at 04:48 |
BaldJean wrote:
you are wrong; this is only true (and not even in the sense you use it) for all religions who are of Jewish offspring.
anyway, that was not what I said at all. all religions ascribe certain properties to their deity, thus creating an image of it, would you not agree? now let us just assume for a moment that there is a God indeed, then who says he or she or it is as any of these religions proclaim? if God indeed is such a superior being, then how can we mere humans be expected to grasp his/her/its true nature at all? it is just as impossible for us as it is impossible for an ant to grasp the nature of a human being.
of course it has to be noted that you, as several others before, picked on a certain religion and generalized from there
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In your opinion Jean and respected. However, I beg to differ.
Far from being generalistic this is what many of us are taught as children. Why should we, therefore, think any different? But then, as always, I find religious people pick what they choose to say and ignore what they don't want to hear or read.
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