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88melter 
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Joined: August 30 2008
Location: Madison WI
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Points: 94
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 Posted: March 24 2009 at 14:26 |
88melter here.
Point taken, but my glowing assessment of CTTE was meant to COUNTER any votes or voters who may believe it to be suitable for inclusion on the 20 worst Symph-prog list. It does not belong there by any stretch of my imagination, at least. I will take it up another notch, and add that, if you are not inclined to put CTTE on the TOP 20, rather than the WORST 20 list, perhaps you are not a symphonic prog fan at all, a position one can hold with integrity, or course, but one that doesn't qualify a person to be voting on what recordings are the worst of a genre that one feels little or no affinity for.
88melter
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88melter
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Sckxyss
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 05 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1319
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Posted: March 24 2009 at 01:26 |
 88melter wrote:
Gentlemen of the Jury,
CTTE is the definitive symphonic progressive rock album. If you are a musician, and have ever tried, much less succeeded in reproducing any or all of it onstage, as I have, you would gain a respect bordering on awe for the creative and sonic wonders of this record.
It was so far beyond what even the YES band members could do in one take that, once it was recorded and spliced together, they had to learn to execute it live for the stageshow.
And You and I is the best prog ballad ever, CTTE is a mythic poem about space, time, and humanity, and Siberian Khatru is about, well, it is about the music first, and the "story"second. I have heard the the lyrics are based partly on Asimov's Foundation trilogy.
YES, the symphonic prog standard-bearers.
88melter |
This doesn't sound like a description of the worst album in the top 20 at all  .. read the poll question again
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Okocha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 13 2007
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 681
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 22:45 |
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Leftoverture (Kansas)
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88melter
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Joined: August 30 2008
Location: Madison WI
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Points: 94
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 21:17 |
Gentlemen of the Jury,
CTTE is the definitive symphonic progressive rock album. If you are a musician, and have ever tried, much less succeeded in reproducing any or all of it onstage, as I have, you would gain a respect bordering on awe for the creative and sonic wonders of this record.
It was so far beyond what even the YES band members could do in one take that, once it was recorded and spliced together, they had to learn to execute it live for the stageshow.
And You and I is the best prog ballad ever, CTTE is a mythic poem about space, time, and humanity, and Siberian Khatru is about, well, it is about the music first, and the "story"second. I have heard the the lyrics are based partly on Asimov's Foundation trilogy.
YES, the symphonic prog standard-bearers.
88melter
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88melter
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mr.cub
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 06 2009
Location: Lexington, VA
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Points: 971
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 20:55 |
Oddly enough I believe there are a number of highs on Trilogy, I think it is equally as exciting as their debut. Endless Enigma and Trilogy are very progressive pieces, though certainly not as exploratory as anything on Tarkus. But to me From the Beginning is ELP at their most simple, yet most effective.
However, I cannot argue with you about the matureness of the album. It is a different breed of ELP album and as much as I love their other early stuff, there is just something about that opening piano intro to Trilogy that makes me enjoy this album. I can see how you don't like consistency, but to my ears ELP avoids complacency on Trilogy- which is what I want to avoid (see Led Zeppelin  )
And I believe any ELP album from their debut through BSS is deserving of being in the Top 20. I could have easily picked another of their albums, I just find this one unique
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Yorkie X
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 04 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1049
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 20:28 |
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so tempting to run one band down to make a point in this poll .. I never liked camel cigarettes much never understood their wide acclaim .. the spokes man of the company has one of the dullest most boring voices ever !
Edited by Yorkie X - March 23 2009 at 20:31
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micky
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 19:04 |
mr.cub wrote:
Personally feel that Trilogy is overlooked, that and the other early ELP records which I feel are equally deserving of being in the top 20. But if I had to remove one and insert another it would be Trilogy for Leftoverture |
I think Trilogy was their most consistent album and 'mature' album if you will... funny though... I probably prefer it less for just that reason... you can forgive the lows... but with this music.. prog... man.. you LIVE for highs...  Consistency can be boring.. and nothing sucks more than being boring.. .see Camel.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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mr.cub
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Joined: March 06 2009
Location: Lexington, VA
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 17:58 |
Personally feel that Trilogy is overlooked, that and the other early ELP records which I feel are equally deserving of being in the top 20. But if I had to remove one and insert another it would be Trilogy for Leftoverture
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memowakeman
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 17:26 |
if my least favourite means the worst...then my choice is the Echolyn one.
I dont know why Hamburger Concerto has so many votes :(
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Follow me on twitter @memowakeman
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Epignosis
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 14:19 |
rogerthat wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
W.r.t to what is a masterpiece, I really think the core of the album is more important to determining what is a masterpiece. Would you dump a desert island album just because of two extremely short filler tracks and instead take a barely above average album but one without filler? For example, CTTE is not a masterpiece just because all three tracks are strong, that is quite irrelevant, the magnum opus that the title track is is enough to confer masterpiece status on it. At least, that's the way I look at it. If you say you didn't like Siberian Khatru and therefore CTTE is not a masterpiece for you but - insert a Camel album here! - is a masterpiece because it is very consistent  , I'd have to disagree. Likewise, SEBTP is a masterpiece in my book on account of Firth alone, it doesn't matter what else they didn't do on the album. And Nursery Cryme is too purely for Musical Box, I'd be rueful about it if all the other tracks were bad, but I still wouldn't deny credit to Musical Box. |
That sums up my feelings about Tarkus.
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And mine too. I consider both Tarkus and BSS to be masterpieces purely on account of the respective epics, I really don't need any more reasons than them to regard the album very highly. The rest of the tracks may or may not be worthwhile, but there are very few albums out there with something like the Karn Evil 9 suite and that to me is far more important. I would always pick brilliance over consistency, both in albums and in bands. Consistency is overrated, there, I said it!  |
You know, that's a good way to put it: Brilliance beats consistency. I like the consistency of The Mars Volta's De-Loused in the Comatorium a lot, but "Tetragrammaton" on Amputechture is brilliant.
Yep...and I feel the same about Brain Salad Surgery.
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Alberto Muñoz
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Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
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Points: 3577
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 13:15 |
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Kansas
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 12:25 |
Epignosis wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
W.r.t to what is a masterpiece, I really think the core of the album is more important to determining what is a masterpiece. Would you dump a desert island album just because of two extremely short filler tracks and instead take a barely above average album but one without filler? For example, CTTE is not a masterpiece just because all three tracks are strong, that is quite irrelevant, the magnum opus that the title track is is enough to confer masterpiece status on it. At least, that's the way I look at it. If you say you didn't like Siberian Khatru and therefore CTTE is not a masterpiece for you but - insert a Camel album here! - is a masterpiece because it is very consistent , I'd have to disagree. Likewise, SEBTP is a masterpiece in my book on account of Firth alone, it doesn't matter what else they didn't do on the album. And Nursery Cryme is too purely for Musical Box, I'd be rueful about it if all the other tracks were bad, but I still wouldn't deny credit to Musical Box. |
That sums up my feelings about Tarkus.
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And mine too. I consider both Tarkus and BSS to be masterpieces purely on account of the respective epics, I really don't need any more reasons than them to regard the album very highly. The rest of the tracks may or may not be worthwhile, but there are very few albums out there with something like the Karn Evil 9 suite and that to me is far more important. I would always pick brilliance over consistency, both in albums and in bands. Consistency is overrated, there, I said it!
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 09:41 |
The T wrote:
Peter wrote:
 Should I do a similar one for prog metal? (I bet The T would really appreciate that....) |
I would love it actually... 
But since prog-metal is hardly popular among classic-prog lovers, that thread would be run pretty much only by metalheads... therefore, it wouldn't be confrontational and would run actually quite smoothly... |
Well Chai, you know I don't like the genre, so I don't think I should do one -- or even post in such a poll. 
I might be perceived as being just a wee bit biased, or of having some sort of (not too well hidden) agenda....
But you go right ahead -- see if the (other) classic prog lovers stay out! 
Edited by Peter - March 23 2009 at 09:42
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2488
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 07:58 |
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I'm sorry, fellow (PG-era) Genesis freaks, but I've never really enjoyed 'Fountain of Salmacis', I find it monotonous! I was really surprised when Dan Britton (of Deluge Grander) told me it was his favourite track of all time.
I briefly considered voting for NURSERY CRYME, but then I thought: 'No, no, Musical Box is an immortal classic and anyway, HAMBURGER CONCERTO is a far less interesting album...'
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Roj
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Location: Manchester, UK
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Points: 3126
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 06:36 |
Epignosis wrote:
Hey Roger! Long time no chat! How're things?
(And which four Yes?)
You'd probably like see a little Flower King action in the top 20, no?
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I'm good Robert, hope you're well too buddy.
My four by Yes would be Going For The One, Tales From Topographic Oceans, Close To The Edge and The Yes Album (Drama might make it too, come to think of it!). I have to say I'm pretty keen on Keystudio at the moment too.
Hmmmmm, there may just be the odd Flower Kings album in my top 20 . |
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Epignosis
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Joined: December 30 2007
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 06:27 |
Roj M30 wrote:
I've been watching this thread quite closely, but up to now I've not contributed as I'm not keen to simply "diss" albums from the top 20 I'm not mad on (and there's a few ). I know 14 of these.
However, a top 20 count of:-
Genesis - 5
Yes - 4
Camel - 3
ELP - 0
leaves me shaking my head in disbelief.
I'd say probably 3 Genesis warrant inclusion (not all of my 3 are in the "official" top 20), 4 by Yes is about right (not those 4 though!!) but can't believe there's 3 Camel in there and no ELP. |
Hey Roger! Long time no chat! How're things?
(And which four Yes?)
You'd probably like see a little Flower King action in the top 20, no?
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Roj
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 02 2008
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 06:16 |
I've been watching this thread quite closely, but up to now I've not contributed as I'm not keen to simply "diss" albums from the top 20 I'm not mad on (and there's a few ). I know 14 of these.
However, a top 20 count of:-
Genesis - 5
Yes - 4
Camel - 3
ELP - 0
leaves me shaking my head in disbelief.
I'd say probably 3 Genesis warrant inclusion (not all of my 3 are in the "official" top 20), 4 by Yes is about right (not those 4 though!!) but can't believe there's 3 Camel in there and no ELP.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32588
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 06:02 |
The T wrote:
My knowledge of the Top 20 is limited.... I have to say I wouldn't have included any YES album there except CTTE and maybe Relayer.... On the other hand, every Genesis album deserves to be there
Kansas' album also kind of overstays its welcome in that list.... I really can't grasp where the "symphonic" part of their sound is.... |
Kansas's album is one of the only ones up there with any real commercial success, and I wonder if that's why it's so frowned upon. I think Yorkie said it well.
But symphonic? Try the songs "Miracles out of Nowhere," "Cheyenne Anthem," or "Magnum Opus," to name the biggest three.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
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Points: 32588
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 05:59 |
rogerthat wrote:
Interesting opinions on Cryme and SEBTP. I think Fountain is a masterpiece, well at least by Genesis standards. And yes, I dig all the tracks on Cryme, it is really only a question of finding something that leaps at you from those shorter tracks, for some it happens quickly, takes more time for others, some never get it at all, that's alright. The problem with the short tracks on SEBTP is they don't bind too strongly with the epics. Actually even the epics work more as standalone songs and don't flow from one to another. I have to be in a specific Dancing With The Moonlit Knight mood or Firth mood, there's hardly ever a SEBTP mood for me. On Cryme, the three long tracks and Seven Stones work both as standalone pieces and as part of a whole album.
W.r.t to what is a masterpiece, I really think the core of the album is more important to determining what is a masterpiece. Would you dump a desert island album just because of two extremely short filler tracks and instead take a barely above average album but one without filler? For example, CTTE is not a masterpiece just because all three tracks are strong, that is quite irrelevant, the magnum opus that the title track is is enough to confer masterpiece status on it. At least, that's the way I look at it. If you say you didn't like Siberian Khatru and therefore CTTE is not a masterpiece for you but - insert a Camel album here! - is a masterpiece because it is very consistent , I'd have to disagree. Likewise, SEBTP is a masterpiece in my book on account of Firth alone, it doesn't matter what else they didn't do on the album. And Nursery Cryme is too purely for Musical Box, I'd be rueful about it if all the other tracks were bad, but I still wouldn't deny credit to Musical Box. |
That sums up my feelings about Tarkus.
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The T
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 21:12 |
Peter wrote:
Should I do a similar one for prog metal? (I bet The T would really appreciate that....) |
I would love it actually...
But since prog-metal is hardly popular among classic-prog lovers, that thread would be run pretty much only by metalheads... therefore, it wouldn't be confrontational and would run actually quite smoothly...
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Worst Album in the Symphonic Top 20
