Joined: May 27 2008
Location: Arizona
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 15:34
Logan, I listened to those samples. I think, despite the larger attempt at samples and instrumentation not typically found in mainstream rap, it's really still just rap. Just not the usual garbage on the radio or in videos. The structure is still intrinsically that of rap/hip-hop that really hasn't expanded outside of any known boundary.
Joined: October 08 2009
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 15:19
There are also quality concept albums in rap. Two that spring to mind are A prince Among Thieves by Prince Paul and A Day In The Life by Sticky Fingaz. Both are mostly typical hip-hop in content, but tell a complete narrative from beginning to end with different vocalists playing characters and so forth.
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 14:39
What came up for Aesop Rock and El-P on youtube was not promising. Culturally what rap is about is not real compatible with what prog is about...but people break rules all the time.
There's a long line of literate, smart rappers, but the music is just not about nuance or complexity.
I had a roomate who was very into rap for several years, and I enjoyed it for what it was. But I these days I just can't get into music with virtually no harmony or melody. That's just me.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
Joined: October 08 2009
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 14:21
Ill Bill's something of a meathead actually- his music is not intellectual- but he's good rocking fun whereas Limp Bizkit just sounded terrible. If you want to hear him try a song called Trust Nobody. He also made a good song out of Dragonforce samples called White n****r. (I know the N word's a no-no, I say it because it's the name of the song and secondly because the song is stridently anti-racist, a cry of rage from the caucasian Jewish Bill against those who insult him because they think hip-hop is only for black people.)
Back to prog type stuff, there's also a bizarre MC called Doom who even dresses up in costume on stage like a Genesis era Peter Gabriel. Doom usually dresses as Doctor Doom from Fantastic Four, rapping even with the mask on. He made a full-length collaboration with oddball producer Madlib called Madvillainy that was very unusual and byzantine.
IDoom is also worth checking out for Mmm Food, an entire rap album about food.
Joined: May 22 2007
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 14:13
I realize that, but my point being that if rap can be mixed with rock as it is with those bands, I'm sure that it could be mixed with prog as well. I don't know this Ill Bill and how his quality is somehow better than other rap-rock artists. I'm not saying that either prog fans or rap/hip hop fans would enjoy it, but I'm sure it could be done.
Joined: October 08 2009
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 14:05
Yeah I'm not talking about rap-rock- that certainly exists with good artists like Ill Bill (as opposed to the awful Limp Bizkit/Linkin Park etc rubbish). I'm talking about prog rap.
Another guy that comes to mind is Del The Funky Homosapien. His key album is Deltron 3030. It's a concept rap opera set in the year 3030 which tells the story of Galactic Rhyme Federation Champion Deltron Zero battling the evil government of the dystopia he lives in. Oh come on, it's not any sillier than 2112.
The album also features Sean Lennon and is the birthplace of Gorillaz- it was produced by Dan The Automator and Damon Albarn turns up on the first track.
Joined: May 22 2007
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 13:59
Henry Plainview wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
Just a thought, but Rush had the song Roll the Bones, Anthrax had the song I'm The Man, and Aerosmith and Run-DMC combined with a rap-done version of Walk This Way.
But those songs were terrible.
And again, I doubt that there can be effective prog rap-rock, because by necessity the rap element will overpower the elements we traditionally associate with prog.
Joined: May 26 2008
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 13:57
rushfan4 wrote:
Just a thought, but Rush had the song Roll the Bones, Anthrax had the song I'm The Man, and Aerosmith and Run-DMC combined with a rap-done version of Walk This Way.
But those songs were terrible.
And again, I doubt that there can be effective prog rap-rock, because by necessity the rap element will overpower the elements we traditionally associate with prog.
Joined: May 22 2007
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 13:53
Just a thought, but Rush had the song Roll the Bones, Anthrax had the song I'm The Man, and Aerosmith and Run-DMC combined with a rap-done version of Walk This Way. Not to mention, musicians such as Kid Rock and Limp Bizkit who mix rap with rock and metal. Also, I know that there is a 2008/2009 prog release which includes some rap-type vocals. I don't recall who it was at the moment. Maybe Ephrat? I'm sure that to an extent it could be done. As a matter of fact, there was a thread from a year or two back that had a rap or hip-hop song that used the music from Can.
I should also add that the lyrical content of Yes' "That, That Is" shares a lot with what I hear from the lyrical content of rap songs which often speak of desperate situations related to drug use.
I think any genre of music could find its way into a progressive mode and vice versa. I've heard halting attempts at including rap influenced material in two major progressive bands:
Yes on a track on the second side of Union more of just a hip-hop beat (sorry I don't own the track currently and it has been awhile since I have)
Fish on Sunset on Empire on a song called "What Color Is God?"
The latter example was an awesome hint at what rap could add to progressive rock. If you haven't heard this song by Fish you are missing a defining moment I think in the potential here.
I've made the suggestion elsewhere that rap and hiphop are potential goldmines for progressive rock. Perhaps part of the gulf is the way in which rap and hiphop artists engage the instrument via sampling. But the artful use of sampling (and actually my brother whose made something of a name (Solenoid, DJ Brokenwindow, Mr. Pharmacist) in this area) is, perhaps, a staple of electronic music and there clearly are no barriers here. But the way in which rap and hiphop develop what in rock music would be the rhythm section and the way they open up the spoken voice as another element to song seems to me to be a no-brainer for a rich source of new blood in any musical context.
I suspect that what may have kept these two genres apart is an underlying social divide, a divide in the community of those who listen to and appreciate these respective genres, a divide in the community of those who perform these different types of music, and not a divide in the creative possibilities of the music itself.
I have left an open door to rap and hip hop but I have not yet had the level of interest to invest, since divesting myself of LPs and cassettes, to purchase any in the last 15 years. The album "Fear of a Black Planet" has piqued my interest as have the Beastie Boys and Eminem, and I will probably repurchase something by Sir Mixalot eventually...
Joined: October 08 2009
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 13:46
But is this just a prog ROCK place? I thought there was quite a bit of stuff around here that doesn't particularly rock.
Anyway, that this thread got moved seems endemic of the problem. I wasn't talking about rap- I was talking about rap's place in prog. I don't want to talk to people who listen to rap, I want to talk to people who listen to prog, hence my placing this in the prog forum. But it's as though some fellow, presumably sipping Perrier and wearing a monocle, came along and went "Good heavens! Rap music in a prog forum? Why this simply just isn't how it's done!" in unwitting imitation of his own parents' reaction to the Mahavishnu Orchestra.
I'm not attempting to start something with a moderator, I'm just making an argument for inclusiveness and open-mindedness when discussing prog.
Joined: May 26 2008
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 13:02
Rap can definately be progressive, but I don't see anything with a significant rap element being able to fall under prog rock. Rap by its nature can't show the musicianship that is associated with prog, nor is it really possible to rap in 9/8.
One hip hop artist I enjoyed was clouDDEAD, although I haven't heard a full album.
Joined: January 04 2007
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 10:19
Hi,
The term itself is open to many variations, so if folk, and rock and whatever can have a progressive side, so why not rap?
Albeit, I do think that "rap" per se is trapped in an area by its use and lyricism.
I have not heard enough rap out there mixed with anything else, other than things like Pippero and a few others that had appeared with The Bulgarian voices and then in some rave mixes out there ... but in general the frenetic pace tended to go against the "concentration" mode that most progressive music tends to take us in ... I don't see "progressive" (for example) as "disco" as something that you can dance to ... somehow, I never thought of Dream Theater as dance music ... or King Crimson ... but that doesn't mean that I am stuck in a time warp and think that dance is one thing only ... !!! ... ??? ....
I find it funny how people manage to say at the same time "I don't listen to rap" and "I don't think there is any rap out there that is experimental." No, it's actually hilarious. I bet if a user went "Oh, hey, I don't listen to art rock. I think it sucks, by the way. No creativity whatsoever..." he'd be crucified within an instant.
Has anybody around here listened to artists like Blue Sky Black Death, Dalek, Dubadelic, El-P, Flying Lotus, Metaform or Why? They all fall within the category of hip-hop and seriously experimenting and pushing the boundaries of the genre. Just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Frankly there are many artists already on PA a lot less experimental or "progressive" (not prog) than the previously mentioned.
I also think hip-hop will likely neavure feature on this site, but not because there will never be artists that will be experimental enough, but rather due to most's members blind rejection of the genre (but hey, at least we're open minded and want to expand our musical tastes, right?)
Joined: July 25 2007
Location: Devon,UK.
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 05:40
Rap really in it's more simplistic is funk rhythms with rhythmic vocals.A lot of alternative rap still follows these basic principles.I'm sure we can find many songs with these characteristics.
Joined: October 08 2009
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 05:20
Well what you guys did to do is prove you are open-minded and actually try some of the stuff I'm talking about... maybe it will go down in flames, maybe it won't, we'd just have to see.
Mind Drive: JMT are huge on the underground. They're certainly alternative but they're not prog. Great beats but MC Vinnie Paz is a little embarrassing sometimes, though he did seem to up his game on Serpents In Heaven, Kings In Hell.
'Nother great alternative rap artist: RA The Rugged Man.
Joined: September 06 2009
Location: Germany
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 05:14
for me it would be like: wow damn this is the missing piece to complete my prog of all genres i like ;)
but i seriously doubt, that hiphop will ever be on a site like this..
and im just listening to some of the stuff you mentioned and its pretty cool (im curious, did you hear of jedi mind tricks? my favourite rap band - it isnt prog at all but very nice )
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Rap Music's Place In Prog
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Henry Plainview wrote:
I bet if a user went "Oh, hey, I don't listen to art rock. I think it sucks, by the way. No creativity whatsoever..." he'd be crucified within an instant.
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