What genre is prog's foe ?

This is an interesting conversation, I was thinking of various subcultures I was familiar with over the years and bands that recieved scorn from those subcultures:

late 80s California hardcore - Green Day

mid-70s funk - KC and the Sunshine Band

late 80s hip-hop - Vanilla Ice, MC Hammer

mid 70s prog - Kansas, ELO. Rush, Alan Parsons, even Pink Floyd for some

mid 90s electronic - Moby

early 80s west coast punk - X (first west coast punk band to sign to a major label, a major sin)

60s folk - Dylan

late 60s jazz - Miles

late 60s blues/rock - Led Zep, Grand Funk Railroad

Edited by Easy Money - November 22 2009 at 14:41

ExittheLemming wrote: I don't think you really believe that mainstream success for either a punk or prog band would be viewed by either 'scene' as pearls before swine. Even a casual glance through the Collins Genesis, Asia or Buggles Yes threads over the years would be sufficient to convince anyone that what flows unopposed into the mainstream is viewed with contempt by the hard-liners as a very diluted or polluted version of the genre ? (I'm not defending the anti-populist brigade here BTW) Do you really mean those bands that don't pander to being radio-friendly but are still mainstream successful ?

Not for progressive rock at least, however in metal there's quite a bit of distrust towards not only bands that deliberately go for mainstream crossover success but towards when more "authentic" bands get popular outside the metal subculture. The antipathy isn't towards the artists but fans in question who don't have enough loyalty/familiarity with the subculture and are hence perceived at not appreciating metal for the right reasons. This thread on a metal forum would be a very good example of what I'm talking about.

I am very certain there's similar concerns in the punk subculture even though I don't have first-hand experience of it like I have with metal. As for my opinion, on one hand I can definitely understand where such concerns are coming from but on the other hand I also get the impression that even within subcultures it's usually very few of their actual members who actually live up to whatever high-falutin' ideals the movements in question have. It's pretty much an universal constant, has always been so and applies to all of 'em from Goths to neo-beatniks. Alternately depressing or hilarious that it's still so 41 years after Frank Zappa commenced castigating the hippies for his...

(hell, it goes beyond subcultures to much looser-defined "fan communities", see a certain Prog Blog of mine)


Edited by Toaster Mantis - November 23 2009 at 15:04

Toaster Mantis wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: Toaster Mantis wrote: Punk and metal probably have much more of it since I don't remember progressive rock having anywhere as much in the way of "scene politics". As I don't frequent Metal or Punk sites, you may be correct but ain't this principally because Prog does not have an easily identifiable uniform, look or attitude to conform to ? Yeah, progressive rock just has "scenes", metal and punk have well-defined subcultural identities associated with those scenes, but in both cases the scenes still come before the fashion and attitude of which they're an outgrowth. I've also noticed that progressive rock fans welcome mainstream acceptance whereas in metal, punk and probably also goth rock circles there's a tendency to see mainstream crossover success as pearls before swine.

Interesting summary certainly. I don't think you really believe that mainstream success for either a punk or prog band would be viewed by either 'scene' as pearls before swine. Even a casual glance through the Collins Genesis, Asia or Buggles Yes threads over the years would be sufficient to convince anyone that what flows unopposed into the mainstream is viewed with contempt by the hard-liners as a very diluted or polluted version of the genre ? (I'm not defending the anti-populist brigade here BTW)
Do you really mean those bands that don't pander to being radio-friendly but are still mainstream successful ? (erm...I can't think of any proggers that fit the bill, apart from say Floyd ?)

ExittheLemming wrote: Toaster Mantis wrote: Punk and metal probably have much more of it since I don't remember progressive rock having anywhere as much in the way of "scene politics". As I don't frequent Metal or Punk sites, you may be correct but ain't this principally because Prog does not have an easily identifiable uniform, look or attitude to conform to ?

Yeah, progressive rock just has "scenes", metal and punk have well-defined subcultural identities associated with those scenes, but in both cases the scenes still come before the fashion and attitude of which they're an outgrowth. I've also noticed that progressive rock fans welcome mainstream acceptance whereas in metal, punk and probably also goth rock circles there's a tendency to see mainstream crossover success as pearls before swine.


Edited by Toaster Mantis - November 22 2009 at 02:58

JD wrote: Soul Dreamer wrote: Punk isn't the antithesis of prog. Punk may have started as a counter-movement, but more against the disco sound than against prog. Bands like the Stranglers quickly evolved into something very comparable to prog, while the punk movement soon gave way to  "new wave" which is very prog-related.... Nowadays IMO the antithesis of prog is rap/hip-hop... (I don't think it was in the '80)... Rap/hip-hop has become the lowest demenour of commercial "music" (I wouldn't even call it music, especially if it hits the charts...) How do you consider the Stranglers Punk?? Clearly they were at the forefront of what was to become the Electro-Pop movement. Just because they were on the music scene during the Punk movement doesn't mean they are a Punk band. Or is this one of those cases where Punk and Prog actually intersect in so much as each has a zillion sub-genres? I always put bands like the Sex Pistols, The Clash, Iggy and the Stooges and the Ramones as Punk. Bands like The Strangles, OMD, New Order, Our Daugther's Wedding or Depeche Mode are at the far edge of Punk IMHO.

Rattus Norvegicus and No More Heroes were "real" punk albums by The Stranglers, after that they moved on....

Toaster Mantis wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: Tis a pity that 'Prog itself' is not an available option for the poll, as that's what I would vote. I can't imagine fans of punk, metal and reggae have the sorts of internecine bickering that we do on PA ? Punk and metal probably have much more of it since I don't remember progressive rock having anywhere as much in the way of "scene politics".

As I don't frequent Metal or Punk sites, you may be correct but ain't this principally because Prog does not have an easily identifiable uniform, look or attitude to conform to ?

Dean wrote: I would have said reggaeton-bashing rather than reggae-bashing since many prog fans are reasonably tolerant of "real" reggae such as roots-reggae and dub-reggae (and some even like ska-reggae), yet merely mentioning reggaeton is guaranteed to raise the hackles of many of our South American members   And Island was intially a reggae label (and Harvest was a Progressive Blues/Folk/Folk Rock label)

Yeah, I knew that there's a lot of different reggae genres but I've seen a bit of bashing reggae just based on the more popular styles as well as a tendency to talk about dub as a separate genre from reggae. It looks like it's a similar thing with hip-hop.

clarke2001 wrote: Dean wrote: Moris dancing, Surely you meant Boris dancing, didn't you?

Dean wrote: /cut/ relaxation discs, whale songs, wind chimes, /cut/

AAAAAAAAAAARRRGGGHHHHHH!!!I don't have an emoticon gory enough for this.

Dean wrote: Moris dancing,

Surely you meant Boris dancing, didn't you?

harmonium.ro wrote: Yeah, I recently discovered reggae is something different than I expected. I bought a Horace Andy compilation from the discount box and it's amazing, especially the early 70s stuff. It doesn't even resemble Bob Marley (which I can't stand any more). I only bought it because he's a Massive Attack alumnus and boy, what a surprise!

I'd take Horace Andy over Marley any day, it's almost sacrilege to say anything negative about Marley to some of the musical types I run with, but I find much of his music to be boring, although there are a couple that really move, and his percussionists and guitarists are incredible.

By the way, did you know prog-rock session kybdst Rabbit played on a couple classic Marley albums, that's his clavinet melodies you are hearing.