"Selling Out"

ExittheLemming wrote: Ain't there loads of plain vanilla metal fans out there who like DT ? (or are they viewed with suspicion by metalheads ?)

The latter is often the case, usually accompanied by a preference for Fates Warning, Queensrÿche or Savatage over Dream Theater. For the record, that includes myself except that I'm not familiar enough with Savatage to have an opinion on them.

With Dream Theater, their music changed quite a bit.  I used to be a die-hard DT fan but around the time of Octavarium I was seeing a change that I didn't like.  I became less of a fan and at the same time they became more popular.  Marketing can really change a band's perception and Roadrunner gave DT an image I can't stand anymore.  I saw them live this year and it wasn't the same band, wasn't the same music.  Sold out? I don't know, but certainly the popularity has taken its toll. 

Toaster Mantis wrote: Dean wrote: I guess that really depends on what direction those fans came from in the first place, Opeth attracted fans from Death Metal (European, Scandinavian, Swedish, Gutenberg Melodic etc), some through the labels they were signed to (Candlelight, Peaceville, Century Media, Music For Nations, Misanthropy [indirectly] and of course Roadrunner) and associated metal acts (Katatonia, In The Woods, Anathema, Misanthropy (the band)), some through bands they toured with Cradle Of Filth etc. and some through the pure "prog metal" associations. Yeah, maybe Opeth weren't that good an example because they've demonstrated themselves to appeal to both camps something very few prog metal bands do and I have to admit they're successful in that regard even though I don't really like their music. Should probably have focused on Isis instead, I feel it's a pretty sure bet fewer Isis fans are familiar with straight-up sludge metal like Eyehategod or Weedeater than Opeth fans are familiar with "ordinary" death metal.

I think you are correct with Isis - I would imagine that any Isis fans here are more aligned to the Post Metal side than the Sludge side (and possibly discovered them through the Post- route too) ... personally I simply don't like pure sludge metal and Isis & Neurosis are as close as I want to get.

I don't think modern prog metal is selling out. Progressive metal just ain't a curse word anymore. The metal scene is opening up for the technical metal bands and death metal bands with as a side-effect progressive metal coming into the charts. Furthermore people who listen to metal buy more cd's then people who listen to pop music.

floydispink wrote: I really don't think bands like DT, PT and Opeth are selling out just because they hit the charts. There are much more prog (especialy prog metal) fans than many people think.

Dean wrote: While that may be the situation now,  don't think that was how it was 5, 10 or 15 years ago when the people who listened to most (if not all) of those bands were predominately Metal fans and many only they picked up on Prog as a result.   From my own perspective I first listened to them back then it was because they were metal bands.

If you don't sell records, how do you make enough money to live and finance the recording of more albums?

Having lived through the halcyon years of the 70s when the album charts (and at times, the singles charts) were dominated by prog bands, I see no problem with popularity, so long as it's not achieved at the expense of the quality of the music.

Genesis, ELP and, to a lesser extent, Yes did sell out in the late 70s/early 80s because they deliberately compromised their music to achieve greater commercial success. Sadly, the other day I mentioned that I was a Genesis fan to a colleague and he said he was as well; turned out he had everything from Abacab to Calling all Stations but had never heard anything from Trespass to Lamb Lies Down and didn't even know that Peter Gabriel had ever been in the band. We hadn't a lot in common!

ExittheLemming wrote: Henry Plainview wrote: I mean, I strongly believe that most people are more eclectic and open-minded than people here like to pretend because pretending so makes us feel special. But that has to be for Christmas. And I do agree that some forms of prog are popular among certain non-prog crowds, particularly post-rock and metal. Agreed. It is perhaps the metallic genres of prog that are most palatable to non-prog consumers. The latter may find the compond meters and harmonic territory alien to their expectations at times but the surface 'attitude' and 'aggression' they can relate to and recognise 'straight out the box'. In many ways, the metal prog genres could provide a gateway into other realms of prog for the uninitiated. Opeth appear to have been particularly successful in this regard. Possible flaw: it's the lions who would be teaching the lion tamers.

In my expression it's the exact opposite... most progressive metal bands are much more popular with people who mostly listen to progressive rock than with people who mostly listen to metal. Even then, it's completely different prog metal bands that are popular in prog rock circles than in metal circles - those who mostly listen to prog rock listen to prog metal bands that are more prog than metal (Ayreon, Dream Theater, Isis, Mastodon, Protest the Hero, Threshold). Those who mostly listen to metal listen to - surprise, surprise - prog metal that's more metal than prog (Death, Fates Warning, Gorguts, Manticora, Mekong Delta, Ulcerate)... is that what you meant with "the lions taming the lion tamers"?

Okay, there are some bands in the overlap in that they appeal to both prog fans and metal fans (e. g. Agalloch, Atheist, Behold the Arctopus, Queensrÿche and to some extent Opeth) but to my knowledge they're in the minority.

As for "selling out", I think that only really applies when there's been a change in style that's presumed to be the cause of sudden mainstream acceptance and alienates a lot of a band's old fanbase. Basically, it's a shift in intended audience from a niche audience to the mainstream. I guess the trick is to change style without losing your original audience...


Edited by Toaster Mantis - December 26 2009 at 05:28

continuing from above, a lot of metal has always been 'uncool' to like (asside from most kerrang bands). therefore it did not have to conform to 'popular' compromises, and therefore underground metal was allowed to experiment and include prog elemants

Henry Plainview wrote: I mean, I strongly believe that most people are more eclectic and open-minded than people here like to pretend because pretending so makes us feel special. But that has to be for Christmas. And I do agree that some forms of prog are popular among certain non-prog crowds, particularly post-rock and metal.

Agreed. It is perhaps the metallic genres of prog that are most palatable to non-prog consumers. The latter may find the compond meters and harmonic territory alien to their expectations at times but the surface 'attitude' and 'aggression' they can relate to and recognise 'straight out the box'.

In many ways, the metal prog genres could provide a gateway into other realms of prog for the uninitiated. Opeth appear to have been particularly successful in this regard. Possible flaw: it's the lions who would be teaching the lion tamers.