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Poll Question: What are you?
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Negoba View Drop Down
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 08:19
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Yesterday I watched an interesting documentary (not in any way associated with Dawkins or the other "New Atheists", if anyone was wondering) about early Christianity (second/third century AC), and the drawings on the catacombs in Rome reveal that back then Christianity was mostly concerned with the miracles that Jesus performed. Most of those things you're arguing about here were added to the "story" much, much later. Original sin, the assumption of Mary ... those are all pure works of fiction, as far as I'm concerned. If there was any truth to any of that, why was it omitted in the catacombs drawings?

Sorry, but this is all nonsense. What's tragic is how intelligent people can base their life on it.
 
No matter your judgments, this is interesting stuff in that it essential parts of Western history. Sometimes you need to just bring in information and appreciate it for what it is.
 
There is no doubt that Christianity evolved over time, often fusing with existing folk religions. It's not "Nonsense" it's human culture, one of the strangest, most interesting phenomenon in the history of our known universe.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 1009 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 08:23
"What's tragic is how intelligent people can base their life on it."

You should try being one.  You might figure it out.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 08:25
^^^ When I use the word "nonsense" I mean it literally ... it simply doesn't make sense to me.

Why could Christianity spread so quickly? I think that the fables and myths played an important role there.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/archeo/inglese/documents/rc_com_archeo_doc_20011010_cataccrist_en.html

If you look at how they depicted the story of Jonas inside the whale (which was described as a fish in the old testament and as a kind of dragon/monster here), it's very compatible with mythical tales of the Greek or Roman gods. That certainly eased the transition, until finally Christianity became the new official religion in Rome.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 27 2009 at 10:14
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 08:50
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ When I use the word "nonsense" I mean it literally ... it simply doesn't make sense to me.

Why could Christianity spread so quickly? I think that the fables and myths played an important role there.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/archeo/inglese/documents/rc_com_archeo_doc_20011010_cataccrist_en.html

If you look at how they depicted the story of Jonas inside the whale (which was described as a fish in the old testament and as a kind of dragon/monster here), it's very compatible with mythical tales of the Greek or Roman gods. That certainly eased the transition, until finally Christianity became the new official religion in Rome.
How many Roman slaves had seen a Whale, Dragon or Giant Fish in the Mediterranean? (Whales of upto 30m exist in the Med, but few have seen them). Certainly the image is not recognisable as a real creature. Any imagery they portrayed would draw upon pagan stock imagery (see picture below) and pictorial language seen in existing Roman art, which is why, for example, Jonah is shown as a Roman-Greek form (clean shaven short haired) and not as a Hebrew.
 
 
 


Edited by Dean - December 27 2009 at 10:09
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Points: 1009 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 08:58
Maybe whales hadn't evolved yet and it was an evolutionary pre-whale Fish-duck.  God didn't let that one survive because he was afraid of what we would name it.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 09:02
^^ Of course. Smile
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 09:06
^ tish tish - that joke only works in a language that only developed over the past 1000 years - anyway Darwinism does not support chimera of different species Tongue
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Points: 1009 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 09:20
The fish isn't really particularly important to the story, of course.  The point of the story is about disobedience.  It could just as easily be written about a guy named Mike who was taken in (syn. for  swallowed) by a dapper gray-haired englishman with a pretty line of specious reasoning.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 09:31
I'm not in anyway, or have I ever been: "dapper" ... Ermm oh, right, you mean Dawkins...
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Points: 1009 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 09:33
LOL  I was going to say British comedian but I thought that might be too confusing.  
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 09:58


Edited by Negoba - December 27 2009 at 10:00
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 10:14
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Yesterday I watched an interesting documentary (not in any way associated with Dawkins or the other "New Atheists", if anyone was wondering) about early Christianity (second/third century AC), and the drawings on the catacombs in Rome reveal that back then Christianity was mostly concerned with the miracles that Jesus performed. Most of those things you're arguing about here were added to the "story" much, much later. Original sin, the assumption of Mary ... those are all pure works of fiction, as far as I'm concerned. If there was any truth to any of that, why was it omitted in the catacombs drawings?

Sorry, but this is all nonsense. What's tragic is how intelligent people can base their life on it.
 
No matter your judgments, this is interesting stuff in that it essential parts of Western history. Sometimes you need to just bring in information and appreciate it for what it is.
 
There is no doubt that Christianity evolved over time, often fusing with existing folk religions. It's not "Nonsense" it's human culture, one of the strangest, most interesting phenomenon in the history of our known universe.


Many cultural traditions don't make sense if you judge them by modern scientific and ethical standards. I guess the question is, should we judge them by modern standards? I think we should.Smile

BTW: I think you're already judging religion when you call it a "phenomenon".Thumbs Up
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 11:23
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


Sorry, but this is all nonsense. What's tragic is how intelligent people can base their life on it.

More tragic is to see self proclaimed rational people wasting their own life in a futile fight against the beliefs of the vast majority of humanity....Why don't they live and let others live in the way they want, why do this New Atheists believe they are the owners of the HOLY truth?

But as a paradox,the more anti religious campaigns, the healthier religion becomes.

In the late 70's when I was in school, young people was somehow ashamed of expressing their religious beliefs even when they were allowed to express them........., Today millions of kids have strong religious positions specially since praying in public places is limited.

The "Athletes in Christ" for example is a Brazilian organization that gathers millions of young sportsmen who praise God, in such sports as Surf (usually related with sex and drugs), skateboard, football (the real one ), etc.

We live a full rich life, our careers, our family and never even think in guys as Dawkins (who at least is making a lot of bucks with his books and conferences), while he and his followers dream with us all day.

Last week I was watching a TV special where players kneel in the grass before a game and full teams gather to pray after a game ....Please, keep attacking us, the more you do it, the healthier we are.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 10841 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 11:29
Somewhere, a muslim laughs at reading this.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 11:42
^^ "he and his followers" ... there is no such thing. "He" is not a religious leader, and there are no "followers" of any kind. I really fail to understand how one could even think about putting religious dogma and scientific education on the same level, as two alternatives of the same basic concept.


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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 11:44
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Somewhere, a muslim laughs at reading this.


Of course ... moderately religious people all over the world are playing right into their hands.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 12:20
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Somewhere, a muslim laughs at reading this.


Of course ... moderately religious people all over the world are playing right into their hands.
 
Wouldn't it be more prexcise to say that anti religious aggressive movements are throwing moderate people into more radical positions?
 
And your game  is clear un this post, you are trying to equate the words Moslem and Violence playing with the fear of people in USA, when as a fact only a few Moslems are violent, but Dawkins and company have discovered that the sole mention of Moslems scares ignorants who can't make a difference between moderate religious people and terrorists.
 
BTW: Hardly a Christian will be thrown in the arms of Moslems, we respect their beliefs but don't share them.
 
Iván
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 27 2009 at 12:21
            
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 12:30
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^^ "he and his followers" ... there is no such thing. "He" is not a religious leader, and there are no "followers" of any kind.
 
Are you sure?
 
You quote him with reverence as if he was the owner of the holy grail of atheism. LOL
 
 
Originally posted by Mr Progfreak Mr Progfreak wrote:

I really fail to understand how one could even think about putting religious dogma and scientific education on the same level, as two alternatives of the same basic concept. Dead
 

Because I have the right to believe whatever I want, the laws and Constitutions of every civilized country guarantees me that right.

I believe in science and I have faith in religion, both are complementary and each one has it's limits.

BTW: You talk about the divorce of religion and science...Do you know who is recognized as the pioneer in the discovery of the Big Bang?

Monsignor Georges Lemaître, Catholic priest (Bishop) and scientist, so this proves there's no contradiction between both disciplines..

 
Iván
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 27 2009 at 12:39
            
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 12:34
^ I'm currently watching a documentation (by a German news magazine, not related to Dawkins at all, just in case you were wondering) about extreme Muslims. It's not just a few single person, it is a big community in several countries. For example they were visiting villages in Pakistan and showed how the entire society there embraces the concept of martyrdom.

What I mean by saying that even moderately religious people play into their hands is that by preaching tolerance for religion, you are not really an accomplice in their crimes, but you may very well be an enabler. Also not directly, but indirectly. Moderate Muslims enable radicals, Moderate Christians enable Moderate Muslims.

In this situation, all I'm saying is that in my opinion religion is wrong. It makes, in my opinion, no sense for people like you who (as you said earlier) have last been to a church several months ago, to hold on to the concept of religious faith when all you still seem to practice are the philosophical values of the religion. Wouldn't it be better to throw away the "good book" and just try to be a good person?

That is my opinion. If you take it as an "attack" then, like I also said earlier, my answer is that you're easily attacked.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 12:49
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ I'm currently watching a documentation (by a German news magazine, not related to Dawkins at all, just in case you were wondering) about extreme Muslims. It's not just a few single person, it is a big community in several countries. For example they were visiting villages in Pakistan and showed how the entire society there embraces the concept of martyrdom.
 
Nobody said they are 2 or 3, yes there is a good number of violent sects, but still they are the vast minority

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ What I mean by saying that even moderately religious people play into their hands is that by preaching tolerance for religion, you are not really an accomplice in their crimes, but you may very well be an enabler. Also not directly, but indirectly. Moderate Muslims enable radicals, Moderate Christians enable Moderate Muslims.
 
Bravo, as I guessed you preach intolerance against religion, that's the diffference between us, we tolerate atheists even if we don't share their disbelief...You are a proud intolerant

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

In this situation, all I'm saying is that in my opinion religion is wrong. It makes, in my opinion, no sense for people like you who (as you said earlier) have last been to a church several months ago, to hold on to the concept of religious faith when all you still seem to practice are the philosophical values of the religion. Wouldn't it be better to throw away the "good book" and just try to be a good person?
 
Why should I throw away my beliefs?
 
I believe in God, I may not go to mass, for some reasons that are personal, but my belief in God is intact.
 
I try to be a good person, because that's how I been raised and what I believe, my behaviour and my personal values have no relation with a reward, I don't kill or steal not because I have fear of God, I don't do it because I believe it's wrong.
 
As you know I work as a lawyer, and I taken cases of divorce even when my religion doesn't agree, because I believe every person can pursue hapiness even if I don't agree with how they do it, because as a lawyer I defend the rights of every person, not just Catholics.
 
The difference between you and me is that I don't share your disbelief, but I would fight in a court for your right to express it, while you would try to shut us....Which is the moral position?
 
Your opinion makes no sense for any democratic tolerant person, you talk of banning beliefs that are different to your's, that's unacceptable by any civilized society.

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

That is my opinion. If you take it as an "attack" then, like I also said earlier, my answer is that you're easily attacked.
 
You called us intolerant (the real intolerant ae you), irrational, people with stupid beliefs, fanatics, violent, radical, etc...And you say you don't attack us?
 
You are a funny person
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 27 2009 at 13:00
            
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