Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - "Selling Out"
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic Closed"Selling Out"
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Henry Plainview View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 21:45
Well, I wouldn't go that far because I still loathe Phil Collins' pop music, but I just find it difficult to conclusively say that he did it for the money. I have trouble believing somebody who was already successful as an artist would feel the need to do that.
if you own a sodastream i hate you
Back to Top
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 21:41
Agreed with both points.

Why is there this artificial barrier errected by prog fans between progressive and all other forms of music?Shouldn't the fans of this genre be the accepting ones?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
Henry Plainview View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 21:24
Why would renouncing prog make him be selling out? Wouldn't that make it more likely that he didn't sell out?
 
Uncyclopedia is terrible and unfunny.
if you own a sodastream i hate you
Back to Top
Evolver View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5484 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 21:15
Originally posted by SgtPepper67 SgtPepper67 wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out.
How do you know that the shift to pop music was an external and not an internal one? I can give you throwaway pop albums, but Phil has been consistently making pop music for a long time now, even though he didn't have to.

I dont think the the reasons being internal or external matters too much, if theres a rappid shift in a band to make more radio friendly music specifically to sell more records, then its selling out. Collins solo career doesnt count because its what he intended for it, it didnt start as one thing and change to another to sell more.
What? Of course it matters, and the change has nothing to do with it. If Phil Collins decided "I want to write really simple pop music because I lurve it" that would not be selling out no matter when he decided that. Everybody assumes he did it because of the money, and maybe he did, but we, as observers, have no way of telling the difference.


Exactly. In my opinion, he didn't do it for the money or popularity, but of course we don't know for sure. But what's wrong with wanting to start making different music if they just feel they want to do it? that's not selling out.
Maybe, maybe not. 
I've heard Phil has basically renounced his prog past.  It sort of makes me think he sold out.
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
Back to Top
sleeper View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 16:14
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out.
How do you know that the shift to pop music was an external and not an internal one? I can give you throwaway pop albums, but Phil has been consistently making pop music for a long time now, even though he didn't have to.

I dont think the the reasons being internal or external matters too much, if theres a rappid shift in a band to make more radio friendly music specifically to sell more records, then its selling out. Collins solo career doesnt count because its what he intended for it, it didnt start as one thing and change to another to sell more.
What? Of course it matters, and the change has nothing to do with it. If Phil Collins decided "I want to write really simple pop music because I lurve it" that would not be selling out no matter when he decided that. Everybody assumes he did it because of the money, and maybe he did, but we, as observers, have no way of telling the difference.
You've missed the important part of my post though, that its selling out when the change in direction is fairly quick (over one album to the next, or covering two albums, for example) and only to sell more records and therefore make more money. The reasons behind it could be external or internal, but the results are still the same and that its because the band/artist is looking to make more money/become more famoues/whatever.
 
I never suggested that Collins sold out in his solo career.
Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

Back to Top
SgtPepper67 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 17 2007
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 530 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 11:15
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out.
How do you know that the shift to pop music was an external and not an internal one? I can give you throwaway pop albums, but Phil has been consistently making pop music for a long time now, even though he didn't have to.

I dont think the the reasons being internal or external matters too much, if theres a rappid shift in a band to make more radio friendly music specifically to sell more records, then its selling out. Collins solo career doesnt count because its what he intended for it, it didnt start as one thing and change to another to sell more.
What? Of course it matters, and the change has nothing to do with it. If Phil Collins decided "I want to write really simple pop music because I lurve it" that would not be selling out no matter when he decided that. Everybody assumes he did it because of the money, and maybe he did, but we, as observers, have no way of telling the difference.


Exactly. In my opinion, he didn't do it for the money or popularity, but of course we don't know for sure. But what's wrong with wanting to start making different music if they just feel they want to do it? that's not selling out.

In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made...
Back to Top
TheGazzardian View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8844 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 00:31
Just for the sake of being cantankerous, I would say that Yes probably sold out more in '96 when they did the SLO concerts with the classic lineup then they ever did with Trevor Rabin in the '80s. 

Not that I am complaining at all. :D
Back to Top
Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 00:05
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out.
How do you know that the shift to pop music was an external and not an internal one? I can give you throwaway pop albums, but Phil has been consistently making pop music for a long time now, even though he didn't have to.

I dont think the the reasons being internal or external matters too much, if theres a rappid shift in a band to make more radio friendly music specifically to sell more records, then its selling out. Collins solo career doesnt count because its what he intended for it, it didnt start as one thing and change to another to sell more.
What? Of course it matters, and the change has nothing to do with it. If Phil Collins decided "I want to write really simple pop music because I lurve it" that would not be selling out no matter when he decided that. Everybody assumes he did it because of the money, and maybe he did, but we, as observers, have no way of telling the difference.


Quoted because well, HP pretty much won this argument.
Back to Top
Henry Plainview View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 23:39
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out.
How do you know that the shift to pop music was an external and not an internal one? I can give you throwaway pop albums, but Phil has been consistently making pop music for a long time now, even though he didn't have to.

I dont think the the reasons being internal or external matters too much, if theres a rappid shift in a band to make more radio friendly music specifically to sell more records, then its selling out. Collins solo career doesnt count because its what he intended for it, it didnt start as one thing and change to another to sell more.
What? Of course it matters, and the change has nothing to do with it. If Phil Collins decided "I want to write really simple pop music because I lurve it" that would not be selling out no matter when he decided that. Everybody assumes he did it because of the money, and maybe he did, but we, as observers, have no way of telling the difference.
if you own a sodastream i hate you
Back to Top
TheLastBaron View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 07 2009
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 22:52
I think that bands that gain more popularity as a result of drastically changing thier sound to fit with what is popular at the time are selling out. Yet if a band keeps its unique sound and style mostly in tact but gains more fans than i tend to find that it is a matter of that band getting more exposure through different mediums and word of mouth and more people looking for something different to listen to, what drew me to prog was the desire to hear music that was more expressive instrumentally.
" Men are not prisoners of fate, but prisoners of their own minds." - FDR
Back to Top
SgtPepper67 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 17 2007
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 530 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 17:32
Originally posted by maribor maribor wrote:

I think the reason why progressive bands are charting again has more to do with downloading than with increased popularity.

And for the record, I don't think making pop records like Genesis, Yes and Asia did is selling out either. They were bloody good pop records and to this day these bands admit that they wanted to do this. With Genesis you can see it gradually evolving all the way from WAW, ATTWT to Duke, while Yes changed their direction because they had a new man in the band with a totally different approach to music. If you look at Asia - Wetton and Downes have always been more interested in making melodic rock than progressive rock, just look at Wetton's solo albums - hardly any prog there. So, I don't think these bands were selling out. Selling out would be if a fat cat executive came up to them with a big bag of money and said: "Now, write some hits and this bag's yours." And I don't think that happened.


I completely agree. I don't think any of those bands, Genesis, Yes, etc. ever sold out.

In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made...
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 17:28
^ as soon as I've mastered the art of uphill waterskiing, learnt how to juggle soot and nailed this jelly to a plate.
What?
Back to Top
harmonium.ro View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 17:23
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Prog Rock is pop music.


Can somebody please explain that to Ivan? Tongue

Edited by harmonium.ro - December 26 2009 at 17:25
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65856 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 17:10
^ well it certainly falls under 'popular music', that is for being so unpopular most of its life

Interesting discussion- I'm listening to a CD just recorded by a local band I used to roadie for in the early 80s (during the Bay Area thrash/progmetal boom).. just now did they get around to producing a proper release on an independant label. The CD is - well, it's not bad considering the material is 27 years old and the remaining members are well into their late 40s - but one also sees why the group was never signed (and probably never will be): they do a mix of very heavy metal with very melodic parts, guitar&synth harmonies and catchy vocals.. it's a very tough mix to achieve well and attract fans, and most people seem to like either melodic/catchy or heavy/proggy.   Also I think a certain audience/generation has to mature a bit and catch up to the musicians of their time in order to fully appreciate what they're doing, sometimes this happens and sometimes not.

Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 16:45
Prog Rock is pop music.
What?
Back to Top
bsms810 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: May 03 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 363 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 16:34
 i dont mind lady gaga Smile
 
She writes pretty good pop melodies. Like Jacko did (obv not in the same league). I quite like pop music when it has nice melodies (unlike most of the bland stuff in the charts)
'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?'
'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent
Back to Top
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 14:50
Depending on the era the Lady GaGa cd would be better. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
Vibrationbaby View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 14:05
Yeah a Lady Ga Ga next to a Gentle Giant CD. Doesn't that just make you want to spew. 
Back to Top
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 12:52
Newsflash: People enjoy Pop and Prog.

What a world huh?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 12:33
I'm OK with selling out as long as they do it by the pound. Tongue

I think the increased popularity of prog has nothing to do with selling out.  I think it's due to us old farts still being around yet having a taste for the new stuff and having children that they also infect with the prog bug.  And the newest generation of prog fans naturally taking an even bigger interest in the new artists.  And maybe even people who don't fit into either of those categories becoming dissatisfied more mainstream artists and the internet being such a great tool, they can find the stuff at places like this site for example. 

Either that or we are succeeding in our plan to turn the people of the Earth into zombie prog pod people.


Edited by Slartibartfast - December 26 2009 at 12:44
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.172 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.