"Selling Out"

jplanet wrote: Realize that the goal of Genesis when they started out was to be a popular band - they had heavily artistic leanings, of course, but they did not want to be obscure and only play music to a small sub-set of rock fans. During the early 70's, prog was very much in fashion -- in fact, ELP was the highest-grossing live act in the world for a while. So, I do believe that their taste was versatile enough to include a desire to write well-crafted pop songs, so why stay with the old formula when many of your fans have moved on to something else? Selling out will occur to a degree with any artist - who knows if Porcupine Tree would have become more metal-sounding had it not been for the fact that prog-metal is far more popular than non-metal prog? You can write a page-long list of prog metal acts that tour internationally, see how many non-metal prog acts will be leaving their home continent this year...But I bet that Steve Wilson and his bandmates genuinely enjoy the heavier sound they've been moving towards - I'm sure they also enjoy no longer needing to work day jobs to support it!

I'm fairly sure that PTs heavier sound was a direct consequence of SWilson meeting Mikael Åkerfeldt and Opeth and that any increase in popularity as a result was simply coincidental.

Realize that the goal of Genesis when they started out was to be a popular band - they had heavily artistic leanings, of course, but they did not want to be obscure and only play music to a small sub-set of rock fans. During the early 70's, prog was very much in fashion -- in fact, ELP was the highest-grossing live act in the world for a while.

So, I do believe that their taste was versatile enough to include a desire to write well-crafted pop songs, so why stay with the old formula when many of your fans have moved on to something else?

Selling out will occur to a degree with any artist - who knows if Porcupine Tree would have become more metal-sounding had it not been for the fact that prog-metal is far more popular than non-metal prog? You can write a page-long list of prog metal acts that tour internationally, see how many non-metal prog acts will be leaving their home continent this year...But I bet that Steve Wilson and his bandmates genuinely enjoy the heavier sound they've been moving towards - I'm sure they also enjoy no longer needing to work day jobs to support it!

If an artist stops making the music he loves and starts doing something he hates just for the money, maybe he's selling out.. (or maybe he wants to make a decent living, as most people here probably want, even the most "prog-only" ones...)

sleeper wrote: Henry Plainview wrote: Well, I wouldn't go that far because I still loathe Phil Collins' pop music, but I just find it difficult to conclusively say that he did it for the money. I have trouble believing somebody who was already successful as an artist would feel the need to do that. You know, going back over this thread I've been trying to figuer out who has said that Phil Collins was a sell out on his solo albums. My inital post was made regarding Genesis, who most certainly did sell out and Banks has all but admited as much (and it was Banks and Rutherford who wrote most of the songs,a s we should all know by now).

ExittheLemming wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: How did he compromise his artistic integrity exactly?  I guess you could start with the fondant and formulaic piano fuelled ballads used in 'Romantic Comedies', the stiffer than a 90 year old kitten Motown covers, the warm and cosy nostalgic big band jazz atrocities, the assimilation of cyclic beatbox funk that makes pale Russian bank clerks seem positively urban etc (the list goes on) Assuming you've heard any of Collins solo output (and I think you have) the question is at best disingenuous. REO Speedwagon for "Progressive Electronic' anyone ?

Ever since I joined the Forum, it has struck me that there are basically two types of opinion and people on this subject - those who regard anything no prog or pop as selling out, and those who really don't care that much, and who are prepared to accept the music for what it is, be it popular or otherwise.

I fall into the latter category. I think that Face Value was an exceptional LP. Clearly not remotely prog, but equally clearly a great expression of a man's divorce and the related emptions associated with that episode in his life. I have the following two solo LPs, and I dislike them both, aside from a couple of tracks. Not because I regard them as a sellout, but because they are not my cup of tea.

Each to their own I say. There is some great pop music out there. There is also a pile of rubbish, especially the Cowell produced rubbish which is basically bland and poor ripoffs of other people's material. That's what I hate. I respect all who produce their own material, no matter what the genre. It doesn't mean I have to like it, though.

ExittheLemming wrote: maribor wrote: I can't believe what a bunch of snobs some progressive fans seem to be.  We've seen this type of post a million times before and it's really starting to get plain vanilla tiresome. Do you think people who vote differently from you in elections or choose a brand of breakfast cereal you don't care for to be snobs ? (Nah, didn't think so, get over yerself). Without value judgements there wouldn't be either a forum or an archive about artists we deem to be progressive musicians. That's why Britney Spears/Boy Bands/Bay City Rollers/Madonna ain't on PA, it's because they ain't considered progressive, NOT because we're snobs.

But you are snobs if you consider other music than progressive inferior. You're just as bad as the jazz and classical purists. Your comments about Phil Collins say that you don't like his music. That's fine, but that doesn't mean it is in fact inferior. That's a matter of personal opinion. I think you're the one who passes judgment on people who think (or vote) differently, not me. Except if you voted for Bush - then you're a complete idiot. 

Evolver wrote: Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out. See Love Beach, Giant For A Day, anything Genesis did after And Then There Were Three, for examples.  Rush never were completely prog.  What they have done over the years has been completely consistant with their musical vision all along.

I can't believe what a bunch of snobs some progressive fans seem to be. 

How did he compromise his artistic integrity exactly?