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Points: 366 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 11:46
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by progressive progressive wrote:

If you don't even know what is math rock, please go away.
Originally posted by progressive progressive wrote:

I didn't mean math rock by saying "math" metal

About math rock and math metal and math music... for example Meshuggah can be considered as math metal, but math rock is quite far away from it, and not only because the other is rock and other is metal. Of course there's many similarities, but for example math rock drumming is basically quite different. And what about other math music? Let's say Gentle Giant and Egg. Very different bands but in some ways people can think them as math. However, comparing DT and Meshuggah, both has some polyrhythmic music in it, like GG, but all of them approach it from different directions. Meshuggah is very repetitive, whereas DT isn't so polyrhythic usually, but otherwise complex.

Of course this site is for learning, but I found the attitude a bit negative and not willing to learn. And there's other sites too where you can learn about things. It should be common knowledge to know genres, unless you don't need them or don't discuss about them. But sorry for the bad punch.


Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

The prog music umbrella from the 70's that we used to know and love has moved on and morphed into what we struggle with today as a prog definition. To me anything that isn't pop - pure commercial money making pop made for the masses is prog as long as it progresses or is involved in progressing music.

I would like it to be called, let's say... progression music. Well, I'm not good in English so maybe that wouldn't be the best name for that umbrella.

I think prog is mostly _only_ complex music.

Other new "progressive" directions have other names, like post-rock, post-metal, art rock, experimental rock, symphonic rock (well of course there's symphonic prog, but many of them aren't so progressive). 

And why can't prog be pop? For example GG is very pop to me, but also one of the most complex prog bands there. I agree that there's not so much pop prog, at least popular (pop and popular are different things! pop is a genre but for example there's many pop bands that aren't popular at all). There's also many different popular approaches. For example, post-rock is very very popular. So if one makes post-rock, it's usually a pop act. DT is definitely a pop act, and in some places it's even progressive pop (pop as an opposite to rock and metal, not prog - prog can be in pop, rock or metal).

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:


I've never believed that Metallica is prog and my reason for that is that Metallica's music was made for the demand of the then masses. To me it was pop metal - metal's answer to the punk movement. I do believe that Metallica were important in that they, almost single-handedly at the time, brought metal back into the public's eye.

To some point, that's the case, but like some people said, there's other bands that are much more pop metal. But for example, most people who listens to the track "...And Justice for All" don't find it pop at all, but unaccessible. Maybe it's because it's a bad song? I don't know, but Metallica has clearly made metal also more progressive.

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

2. They are widely held as a Progresive Metal band, but largely by fans and journalists. The fact that their music hardly ever matches the definition of Progressive Metal doesn't seem to bother these fans - DT are "representative" largely by straw man polling rather than actuality.

So what is progressive metal then? Could you give me for example 20 examples? Or is there such a thing? Maybe only few bands?

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Heavy Metal is currently extraordinarily popular as a genre - -

Actually it's not. There's many metal genres that are more popular. Think of Black Sabbath kind of music, it's not very popular. There are some popular metal bands that can maybe considered as heavy metal, but many times they are just plain "pop" metal and maybe for example gothic rock, melodic death metal and some slow simple pop versions of other genres. There's very little classic heavy metal that is closer to let's say traditional doom metal or even blues rock. But DT is much heavy metal, though I'd rather say "heavy rock", because like many modern bands, it leans much towards pop/rock/metal. I'm glad that they don't do metalcore.

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Points: 220 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 10:51
Something I don't understand in your argument, Certif1ed, is how Dream Theater brought little to the table that Metallica hadn't already offered. In my mind they wrote music that was so much more intricate. Dream Theater employed far more complex rhythmic patterns - tackling terrors such as 15/8 and 21/16 sequences, and even ventured into polyrhythmic territory. In addition, the melodies covered an expansive range, rather than the somewhat restricted scope of Hetfield's voice, and in many places were modal, rather than based on the pentatonic. Their harmonies also broke from the 'power chord' syndrome, with 9th, 11th and 13th voicings, as well as much experimentation with suspended chords.

Structurally, I believe that Metallica probably had the edge - their song form possessed that spontaneous feel we were recently discussing in your blog. (I find them progressive, regardless of this.) But in multiple respects, Dream Theater, whether you find them to be progressive or not, differed from Metallica, and in many cases their differences achieved a more sophisticated compositional approach.
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Points: 492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 05:46
You do have my blood bubbling - unsung heroes of the past (maybe you should do a post). The Sweet, Slade, Leo Sayer - maybe not prog but unsung heroes of Rock Music in general. By the way, is John Miles represented in PA - haven't checked - if he aint he dam well should be. Sean Phillips perhaps as well - if only for the longest name of any track in music history (lol). Thanks Cert1fied. Time to rebegin a music adventure starting with hunting down the Sweet albums again with a smattering of Slade.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 05:16
^You really need to listen to everything they released from "Fanny Adams" onwards. "On The Level" has some quite astonishing moments, but so do the earlier albums.
 
Even the title track of "Fanny Adams" has experimental, dare I say Progressive leanings - there are so many different sections in different styles, and even keyboards. I wouldn't call it Prog, but there are Prog bands that are less Proggy than that song.
 
You can even hear "Ripper" in it.
 
Here it is. <-Note that this is a "rare studio version"
 
Here is the album version, if you can't get enough - check out the instrument tones - you can practically smell the tubes smoking!


Edited by Certif1ed - March 10 2010 at 05:19
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Points: 492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 03:55
I think that possibly I allow my dislike for Metallica, which wasn't really there up until their next release after the Black Album, cloud my accpeptance of them as prog.
I really find no real similarity between Metallica and Dream Theater other than for one or two tracks where they do try the Metallica sound - and obviously the Metallica bootleg album that DT did.
I do find massive similarity to Deep Purple's music although DT are way more modern in approach as they would be given the time line. Those are my personal views though.
By the way Certif1ed - and a little off topic - I still find your comments about the Sweet way interesting and I'm trying to slot them into my "Prog Brain" as they should be there in a musical influence way - very much so. 
 
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 03:42
Originally posted by Pekka Pekka wrote:

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I've never believed that Metallica is prog and my reason for that is that Metallica's music was made for the demand of the then masses. To me it was pop metal - metal's answer to the punk movement. I do believe that Metallica were important in that they, almost single-handedly at the time, brought metal back into the public's eye. It is another argument for another thread but I think that Dave Mustaine's influence on Metallica was huge and that that influence is the reason that Metallica in fact gave birth to their classic 1st 4 or 5 abums.
 
I'm not going to get deep into this, but my view is that hair metal like let's say Mötley Crüe was the (heavier) music for the masses at the time, and Metallica was fighting that approach by making more complex and extreme kind of music. The actual masses caught onto them around the Black Album, before that they were a metalhead thing pretty exclusively, I think.
 
Got it in one.
 
Even among metalheads, Metallica were a bit extreme in the beginning - as a big Motorhead and Venom fan, I caught on quickly, but balked a little at Slayer. I soon got over that.
 
And really, it was the combination of Mustaine, Hetfield, Ulrich, Burton and Hammett that really made the band, not any particular member - all 5 contributions are plain on the debut, although Mustaine's is less so on later releases.
 
Without their frequent sharing of tapes of other bands (ironic, given their attack on Napster) Metallica would have lacked the variety of influence that they had, which made their particular brand of metal so overtly progressive - one major overlooked aspect of "Progressive" is the drawing together of a wide variety of influences.
 
The fact that the band moved to Cliff Burton in order to include him in the band also speaks volumes about the man's rightful legendary status, and he was a massive driving influence, as testified by the lack of contributions from Jason Newstead on "..Justice", as well as that album's somewhat directionless feel.
 
The metalheads finally caved in to Metallica's onslaught when they performed "One" on MTV, and the Black album cemented their postion as #1 metal band - a position they should have lost with subsequent releases and behaviour - but that's just my opinion.
 
Anyway, to get back to the original criticism of my position, what is the fundamental difference between the music on Dream Theater's early albums and Metallica's that makes the former "Prog" (which they're not) and the latter "Not Prog" (which they're not)?
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Points: 6457 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 03:18
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I've never believed that Metallica is prog and my reason for that is that Metallica's music was made for the demand of the then masses. To me it was pop metal - metal's answer to the punk movement. I do believe that Metallica were important in that they, almost single-handedly at the time, brought metal back into the public's eye. It is another argument for another thread but I think that Dave Mustaine's influence on Metallica was huge and that that influence is the reason that Metallica in fact gave birth to their classic 1st 4 or 5 abums.
 
I'm not going to get deep into this, but my view is that hair metal like let's say Mötley Crüe was the (heavier) music for the masses at the time, and Metallica was fighting that approach by making more complex and extreme kind of music. The actual masses caught onto them around the Black Album, before that they were a metalhead thing pretty exclusively, I think.
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Points: 492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 03:10
Cert1fied - I agree with you in the main body of your arguments above and further back in the thread. I do believe however that Dream Theater are most definately prog music. The prog music umbrella from the 70's that we used to know and love has moved on and morphed into what we struggle with today as a prog definition. To me anything that isn't pop - pure commercial money making pop made for the masses is prog as long as it progresses or is involved in progressing music.
I've never believed that Metallica is prog and my reason for that is that Metallica's music was made for the demand of the then masses. To me it was pop metal - metal's answer to the punk movement. I do believe that Metallica were important in that they, almost single-handedly at the time, brought metal back into the public's eye. It is another argument for another thread but I think that Dave Mustaine's influence on Metallica was huge and that that influence is the reason that Metallica in fact gave birth to their classic 1st 4 or 5 abums.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2010 at 01:57
Originally posted by progressive progressive wrote:

If you don't even know what is math rock, please go away.
Originally posted by progressive progressive wrote:

I didn't mean math rock by saying "math" metal
 
Are you quite sure that YOU know what math rock is?
 
Tongue
 
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:



BTW, this thread has long became useless. The guy created it with the best of intentions and since page 3 (I think) there have been some ridiculous discussions over some of the most unimportant matters ever.
 
I think that the recent discussion has been very civil (with one exception), and well focussed around a specific argument.
 
Let's go back and be even more specific to the original post;
 
Originally posted by crimson87 crimson87 wrote:

Lately I have been listening to DT for hours and hours and I realized that I can be considered a fan of the band. Three years ago , I couldn't understand what the fuss was about  with this group. But now they are one of the ones that I listen the most.
 
The question is , when we always talk about the prog giants we always mention: Yes , Genesis , KC , ELP , Tull and Rush. They all had their prime in the 70's and some like Rush and KC recorded good material in the 80's (KC always released good records to my ears) The point is , can't DT be considered into this group as well? Some of my reasons that could stand this statement are the following:
 
  1. They are the most successful American prog band , touring all over the world and having good sales figures taking into consideration they are a prog act.
  2. They are the most representative Progresive Metal band
  3. While not in their prime (in my opinion) the band's output  has been consistent all over 20 years. We can compare this with what Genesis , Yes ELP or Tull were doing 20 years after their first release (late 80's)
  4. They achieved all previous three at a time when prog is not fashionable anymore

 
  1. They are a very successful American Heavy Metal band , touring all over the world and having good sales figures.
  2. They are widely held as a Progresive Metal band, but largely by fans and journalists. The fact that their music hardly ever matches the definition of Progressive Metal doesn't seem to bother these fans - DT are "representative" largely by straw man polling rather than actuality.
  3. What Genesis , Yes ELP or Tull were doing 20 years after their first release (late 80's) has more to do with the musical climate than the bands. People were much less tolerant and less likely to buy Prog Rock at that time. Heavy Metal is currently extraordinarily popular as a genre, and established long-running acts in this genre have always been "pedestalised". It's fair enough to claim the "Legend" part, but not the "Prog" part. The fact that their output has been "consistent" is also at odds with the very notion of Progressive.
  4. There has been an "underground" progressive "movement" ever since it's "death" in the 1970s. Sorry about all the quote marks, but the words are inadequate really. This is, however, probably the best point - Dream Theater have, by associating themselves with Prog Rock, raised the profile of the genre and it's actually a lot more popular now than it was when they started out - and for that, they deserve plenty of kudos. Legendary status, if you like Big smile

But this is why DT can't really be considered alongside Genesis, Yes, ELP, Tull, Crimson, GG et al - the music does not have the same attributes, even if it does share some of the same elements. The key attributes of Dream Theater's music lie in Heavy Metal and not Prog.

But should that matter?
 
As I said earlier, Metal always feels this need to prove itself.
 
Why does it need to prove itself now that it's unquestionably one of the most technically proficient genres - if not THE most technically proficient genre of popular music, with Dream Theater ranking very highly on that score?
 


Edited by Certif1ed - March 10 2010 at 01:59
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2010 at 21:53
Really? I think that all classics are all overdue, and its only me! Hell, Transatlantic is singing that all over the world! LOL

BTW, this thread has long became useless. The guy created it with the best of intentions and since page 3 (I think) there have been some ridiculous discussions over some of the most unimportant matters ever. And really, if you want to troll a music forum, try going to an imageboard at least. Seriously, its not even that hard.
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2010 at 19:20
Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

Originally posted by progressive progressive wrote:

If you don't even know what is math rock, please go away.


And here I thought all along that this was a website that people could come to so that they could learn what math rock, post rock etc. was all about.

Guess I must have been badly mistaken then...Confused


Best post in the entire thread, no contest Clap
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Points: 8844 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2010 at 14:25
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Even worse because I'm quite sure he shouldn't go away just because he doesn't, according to you, know what "math rock" is. It's kind of difficult these days to be able to keep track of all the new rocks...maybe soon there will be a "Physics rock", "Chemistry Rock" or something like... When in the end they all are very similar with just minimal differences in their emphasis on some of the elements of rock music...

If it is about the elements I'm sure it would be Chemistry Rock.


And the appreciation of rock, generally, is a geological pursuit.

That was a pretty good one. XD
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2010 at 14:09
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Even worse because I'm quite sure he shouldn't go away just because he doesn't, according to you, know what "math rock" is. It's kind of difficult these days to be able to keep track of all the new rocks...maybe soon there will be a "Physics rock", "Chemistry Rock" or something like... When in the end they all are very similar with just minimal differences in their emphasis on some of the elements of rock music...

If it is about the elements I'm sure it would be Chemistry Rock.


And the appreciation of rock, generally, is a geological pursuit.

So it is about geochemistry?
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Points: 38974 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2010 at 14:06
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Even worse because I'm quite sure he shouldn't go away just because he doesn't, according to you, know what "math rock" is. It's kind of difficult these days to be able to keep track of all the new rocks...maybe soon there will be a "Physics rock", "Chemistry Rock" or something like... When in the end they all are very similar with just minimal differences in their emphasis on some of the elements of rock music...

If it is about the elements I'm sure it would be Chemistry Rock.


And the appreciation of rock, generally, is a geological pursuit.
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Points: 11401 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2010 at 13:50
Originally posted by progressive progressive wrote:

If you don't even know what is math rock, please go away.


And here I thought all along that this was a website that people could come to so that they could learn what math rock, post rock etc. was all about.

Guess I must have been badly mistaken then...Confused
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2010 at 12:06
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Even worse because I'm quite sure he shouldn't go away just because he doesn't, according to you, know what "math rock" is. It's kind of difficult these days to be able to keep track of all the new rocks...maybe soon there will be a "Physics rock", "Chemistry Rock" or something like... When in the end they all are very similar with just minimal differences in their emphasis on some of the elements of rock music...

If it is about the elements I'm sure it would be Chemistry Rock.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2010 at 11:34
Even worse because I'm quite sure he shouldn't go away just because he doesn't, according to you, know what "math rock" is. It's kind of difficult these days to be able to keep track of all the new rocks...maybe soon there will be a "Physics rock", "Chemistry Rock" or something like... When in the end they all are very similar with just minimal differences in their emphasis on some of the elements of rock music...
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Points: 366 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2010 at 11:03
Sorry. Not to you Confused

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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2010 at 10:52
Originally posted by progressive progressive wrote:

If you don't even know what is math rock, please go away.
Could you please explain who are you talking to?
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Points: 366 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2010 at 10:34
If you don't even know what is math rock, please go away.

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