French approve ban on burqas...

The T wrote: BaldFriede wrote: Chris S wrote: I know your persuasion and totally respect it and also I beleive this conversation is going nowhere-now here. Because you won't accept that men still keep oppressing women. Have you ever seen a man dressed in sexy clothes comparable to what women wear? If he does he is being considered to be gay. Is that not so? So you think the way the Islamic religion treats women is one that doesn't discriminate? Can I infer that from your vehement defense of the burqa and condemnation of western civilization (not only in the quoted post but in several ones before)?   I never knew women wanted to be second-class beings, walking behind men, dressed with a sheet covering all her features including her face, not being able to work, study, etc. Oh wait Saudi Arabia is not a big enough example probably, just a minor exception?

Of course Islam treats women horribly. No one's defending that. But the solution is not to deny those women freedoms, it's to give them more freedoms.

Epignosis wrote: Epignosis wrote: Now the burqa can be used oppressively (as many innocuous things can), and I think the big one is how the Taliban enforced the burqa on women in Afghanistan for a period of time.  But that's just as wrong as what France has done, I think: It isn't liberating women.  It's telling them what they can and cannot wear.

This is a reasonable way to put it, and I agree that neither banning the burqa nor allowing it in the liberal French society and hoping the liberation will come by itself are a perfect solution to liberate women. I just think that one is much better than the other, though.

Epignosis wrote: The T wrote: Baldfriede, it would appear that there's no in-between wearing a burka and wearing a miniskirt and a brassiere and nothing else... Do you know people can look modest and restrained WITHOUT having to cover themselves with a big sheet?  T, did you read what I said about Islamic purity? Epignosis wrote: I've known Muslims, and some of them take extreme measures for maintaining purity (tahara).  For example, they do not drink alcohol.  Beyond this, they won't eat in any establishment where alcohol is served if possible. Yes, modest dress is required, but many Muslims go above and beyond the letter of their law to avoid even accidentally trespassing the code. Muslims are not the only religion to do this.  Strict Orthodox Jews do this as well.

harmonium.ro wrote: Epignosis wrote: Epignosis wrote: Now the burqa can be used oppressively (as many innocuous things can), and I think the big one is how the Taliban enforced the burqa on women in Afghanistan for a period of time.  But that's just as wrong as what France has done, I think: It isn't liberating women.  It's telling them what they can and cannot wear. This is a reasonable way to put it, and I agree that neither banning the burqa nor allowing it in the liberal French society and hoping the liberation will come by itself are a perfect solution to liberate women. I just think that one is much better than the other, though.

But you're still running into this problem:  What does it mean to liberate women?  You speaking for them belies your own position, I think.

I believe Moris said it best:

clarke2001 wrote: This is an issue way bigger then the burqa ban. Are women in (western) societies oppressed nowadays? If so, to what degree? Do they want change? What kind of change? Perhaps some Muslim women might feel uncomfortable and indecently exposed without burqa in the same way Western women might feel if walking naked. Or to use milder comparison, if walking topless.

The T wrote: BaldFriede wrote: Chris S wrote: I know your persuasion and totally respect it and also I beleive this conversation is going nowhere-now here. Because you won't accept that men still keep oppressing women. Have you ever seen a man dressed in sexy clothes comparable to what women wear? If he does he is being considered to be gay. Is that not so? So you think the way the Islamic religion treats women is one that doesn't discriminate? Can I infer that from your vehement defense of the burqa and condemnation of western civilization (not only in the quoted post but in several ones before)?   I never knew women wanted to be second-class beings, walking behind men, dressed with a sheet covering all her features including her face, not being able to work, study, etc. Oh wait Saudi Arabia is not a big enough example probably, just a minor exception?

It is rather the men who become second class beings when a woman  wears a burka, not the women. It is a supreme irony that your  very act of "liberation" you try to impose on Islamic women is just another act of suppression: They are being robbed of their choice.
Also I would like you to point out to me where I condemn Western culture in other posts. You would be hard-pressed to find one. On the contrary, I defend the values of Western culture. In case you have forgotten: One of these values is tolerance.

harmonium.ro wrote: Epignosis wrote: harmonium.ro wrote: Epignosis wrote: harmonium.ro wrote: And as immigrant, I can say that France is a f**king great play to express yourself. Although the burqa is meant to restrict self-expression.  Exactly Yes...from women who do not wish to express themselves.  Or women who were told from the very beginning that that's the only accepted way to behave like a women?

Did you even read my first post on the previous page?  These are women who say they were not coerced to wear the burqa, that they do it by choice.  That's their words.

You are only assuming that's how things are.  I provided sources.

Muslims do not believe in alcohol consumption.  Should Muslim women be forced to drink as well because the government wants to "free them" from their "religious oppression" that they've been a "slave" to since birth? 



Edited by Epignosis - July 16 2010 at 10:40

BaldFriede wrote: Epignosis wrote: harmonium.ro wrote: Epignosis wrote: harmonium.ro wrote: Epignosis wrote: harmonium.ro wrote: And as immigrant, I can say that France is a f**king great play to express yourself. Although the burqa is meant to restrict self-expression.  Exactly Yes...from women who do not wish to express themselves.  Or women who were told from the very beginning that that's the only accepted way to behave like a women? Did you even read my first post on the previous page?  These are women who say they were not coerced to wear the burqa, that they do it by choice.  That's their words. You are only assuming that's how things are.  I provided sources. Muslims do not believe in alcohol consumption.  Should Muslim women be forced to drink as well because the government wants to "free them" from their "religious oppression" that they've been a "slave" to since birth?  I really have to applaud your comments, Epignosis.

I agree. That last analogy sums it up perfectly.

Epignosis wrote: Did you even read my first post on the previous page?  These are women who say they were not coerced to wear the burqa, that they do it by choice.  That's their words. You are only assuming that's how things are.  I provided sources.

You are also speaking for all the women in this situation. The fact that you gave individual examples does not show anything the whole of them. You just accused me of this in your previous post.

Epignosis wrote: Muslims do not believe in alcohol consumption.  Should Muslim women be forced to drink as well because the government wants to "free them" from their "religious oppression" that they've been a "slave" to since birth?

Of course not, It's not a good analogy. The good analogy would be: women would be forced to drink a certain drink because it's a symbol of their culture, and the French government would ban this drink on France's territory.

harmonium.ro wrote: Epignosis wrote: Did you even read my first post on the previous page?  These are women who say they were not coerced to wear the burqa, that they do it by choice.  That's their words. You are only assuming that's how things are.  I provided sources. You are also speaking for all the women in this situation. The fact that you gave individual examples does not show anything the whole of them. You just accused me of this in your previous post. Epignosis wrote: Muslims do not believe in alcohol consumption.  Should Muslim women be forced to drink as well because the government wants to "free them" from their "religious oppression" that they've been a "slave" to since birth?  Of course not, It's not a good analogy. The good analogy would be: women would be forced to drink a certain drink because it's a symbol of their culture, and the French government would ban this drink on France's territory.

I am certainly not speaking for all women.  I let them speak for themselves, and provided sources.  Their words, not mine.  You are the one speaking for them.

I have not found a single source that says women are forced to wear the burqa in France.  Every one of them they say they choose it.

The T wrote: BaldFriede wrote: By the way: I can't help noticing that most of the comments have been made by men; only two women, Jean and I, took part in the argument so far. If I were an Islamic woman I would feel suppressed by this anti-burka law, and suppressed by males, that is. I would love to hear more women talking about this. Alas, your views can't be taken as if they represented most women's views.

Oh can't they? How do YOU know?

By the way: Did you watch the hour-long movie about the burka? My French is limited, but that much was clear to me: The women who wore it did not feel suppressed  at all - no-one who who feels suppressed can laugh like that.


Edited by BaldFriede - July 16 2010 at 10:51