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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 14:26
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

And since we're talking burqa here: Good luck finding beautiful music, literature, poetry and culture among those who favor this type of garment.
 
Are you sure?
 
Or is it another prove of your anti anything related to a religious group?
 
Luiterature
 
Quote

Here is a list of famous epic or romance literature in the Arabic language:

 
Music:
 
 
Just one example
 
Architecture:
 
 
 
Is there anything wrong with Islamic art?
 
I DON'T THINK SO
 
Iván
            
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 14:18
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


that really is an astonishing conclusion: people who are pro-burka can not be artistic? go wash your head, Mike; rarely have I heard a worse prejudice.
what wonders me most is that no-one so far has named the real reason for the burka ban. it is not about the liberation of Islamic women at all; Sarkozy doesn't give  a rat's ass about that. no, what Sarkozy really is doing is playing on islamophobia. all people of the Islamic faith are being put under general suspicion of being terrorists, then here comes Superman Sarkozy saying: "look here; I do something against that: I ban the burka. if they no longer can hide they no longer can throw bombs".  this is of course highly absurd, but it is exactly these sentiments Sarkozy is playing with, and that's the real reason for the burka ban

I'm not one to automatically associate terrorism with Islam, that would be stupid.  But you must admit that it does hide your identity and things of danger can be concealed underneath.  On the other hand, things can be concealed underneath jackets and coats in winter.  On the other hand (wait I have three??) wouldn't surprise me at all is the S man is doing this solely for political reasons.  I think our politicians here in the US have made that more of an art form though.
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 13:35
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

Without religion the world would be a better place.


Really? Think of all the beautiful music, awe inspiring architecture, literature, poetry, culture that would be lost. Think of all the faith based charities that give millions and millions to the needy. I'm afraid I can't agree with you there.


Think of all the beautiful music which non-religious prog artists created. You really cannot say what our culture would look like if religion had become extinct a couple of hundred years ago.

BTW: Think of the millions of dollars the faith based charities spend on spreading the faith ... there are many non-faith based charities, too. I'd like to separate faith from charity, please.Smile

And since we're talking burqa here: Good luck finding beautiful music, literature, poetry and culture among those who favor this type of garment.

that really is an astonishing conclusion: people who are pro-burka can not be artistic? go wash your head, Mike; rarely have I heard a worse prejudice.
what wonders me most is that no-one so far has named the real reason for the burka ban. it is not about the liberation of Islamic women at all; Sarkozy doesn't give  a rat's ass about that. no, what Sarkozy really is doing is playing on islamophobia. all people of the Islamic faith are being put under general suspicion of being terrorists, then here comes Superman Sarkozy saying: "look here; I do something against that: I ban the burka. if they no longer can hide they no longer can throw bombs".  this is of course highly absurd, but it is exactly these sentiments Sarkozy is playing with, and that's the real reason for the burka ban


Edited by BaldJean - July 16 2010 at 13:39


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Points: 6898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 13:11
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

I saw a woman in a burqa here in Montréal yesterday when it was 32 degrees celsius and I said hi baby ain't it hot in there? She didn't think it was funny.
''
 
LOLLOL. Are you sure she did not reply  in a deep gravelly voice..." Hey...how did you know I liked wearing womens clothing? "
 
Thanks you made me really laugh out loudLOL


No it just growled at me.Angry


Edited by Vibrationbaby - July 16 2010 at 13:12
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 13:09
^^ I've said my piece ... and it was you who posed the question, please don't blame me for answering. Tongue

Edited by Mr ProgFreak - July 16 2010 at 13:10
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 13:08
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

We are referring here to all kind of clothes that cover a women leaving only her eyes visible, they are different in each country and have different names.

Sorry, but that is not the case. We were talking about the specific burka ban in France.

Are "the components" of the burka that important? If they are, can you please enumerate them and mention their relevance? Confused 

I guess only people who have worn a burka once for a demonstration should have any opinion on the matter... Confused

Yes, they are important indeed. I think one should know what one is talking about before banning it. Don't you agree?

Yes. So please describe the intricate "components" of the burka. (it really sounds like it has moving partsTongue)
It's the new fabric used in space travel technology. I thought you knew that.....paving the way for an almighty cosmic JihadDead
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 13:07
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

Without religion the world would be a better place.


Really? Think of all the beautiful music, awe inspiring architecture, literature, poetry, culture that would be lost. Think of all the faith based charities that give millions and millions to the needy. I'm afraid I can't agree with you there.


You really cannot say what our culture would look like if religion had become extinct a couple of hundred years ago.



You're right, I can't, and neither can vibrationbaby or you, so let's put an end to all this ballyhoo, shall we?
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 13:06
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

I saw a woman in a burqa here in Montréal yesterday when it was 32 degrees celsius and I said hi baby ain't it hot in there? She didn't think it was funny.
''
 
LOLLOL. Are you sure she did not reply  in a deep gravelly voice..." Hey...how did you know I liked wearing womens clothing? "
 
Thanks you made me really laugh out loudLOL
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 12:56
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

Without religion the world would be a better place.


Really? Think of all the beautiful music, awe inspiring architecture, literature, poetry, culture that would be lost. Think of all the faith based charities that give millions and millions to the needy. I'm afraid I can't agree with you there.


Think of all the beautiful music which non-religious prog artists created. You really cannot say what our culture would look like if religion had become extinct a couple of hundred years ago.

BTW: Think of the millions of dollars the faith based charities spend on spreading the faith ... there are many non-faith based charities, too. I'd like to separate faith from charity, please.Smile

And since we're talking burqa here: Good luck finding beautiful music, literature, poetry and culture among those who favor this type of garment.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 12:37
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

Without religion the world would be a better place.


Really? Think of all the beautiful music, awe inspiring architecture, literature, poetry, culture that would be lost. Think of all the faith based charities that give millions and millions to the needy. I'm afraid I can't agree with you there.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 12:29

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Good thing you quoted the Constitution Ivan, because it shows exactly the reasons. Freedoms are guaranteed not in absolute, but with the condition they don't harm anyone else. And as full veil is a tool of women's oppression (expressing the interdiction for women to fully and freely interact with other people, and especially other men, alongside with the interdiction for women to have full legal rights, to have any decision power in the family, to have decision power for her own, and alongside horrific punishments going up to stoning and decapitation in some places, if she disobeys), it comes in strong disagreement with the constitution. The fact that many women got used to it doesn't change its nature.

I.- Limits of the law: In any country of the world including France, the laws are limited by the Constitution and we have to follow the principle of literality

I believe you don't understand the text of the Constitution, it says clearly:

Freedoms are guaranteed not in absolute, but with the condition they don't harm anyone else

The use of the words SOMEBODY ELSE specifically defines the limit of the Constitutional article, it has to harm a person who is not the one enjoying their liberty.

The laws have to be SPECIFIC, and in this case the words SOMEBODY ELSE mark the limit of the legislator's attribution.
 
If it harms (in the mind of the legislator), the person that uses the burqa, they have nothing to say, unless it places the health or life in imminent risk.
 
I'm a Catholic, but I disagree with some radical groups of my religion use a sackcloth.  to feel part of the pain Jesus suffered in the cross (despite the Bible says that the body is a temple), that is really harmful for the person who uses it, destroys muscle's, nerves and veins (not talking about he terrible scars or even gangrene), but I don't see any law banning them (maybe because they don't see it being hidden inside the robe or because they don't want to mess with the Catholic Church)...The reason is that the penitent only harms himself.

2.- Unconstitutional Law:

The law bans garments that could hide the person's face, but they exclude

1.- Motorcycle helmets: What? Why can people be forced to use helmets that don't hide the face? Maybe because they are not so cool.

2.- Sky Masks: Here in Perú and in most parts of the world we have the experience that the sky mask is the first item that terrorists use to hide their faces, plus if the law was Constitutional it would say: Sky masks during the practice of sky.

3.- Carnival masks: Double what? They limit the free exercise of a Religion or cultural identity but they allow the use of a mask or pleasure?

This proves the excuse is BS.

3.- International Treaties: According to International Law, the International Treaties about Human and Civil Rights have Supra-Constitutional rank, or at least the same rank than the Constitution.

As a fact, French Constitution is clear:　

Quote

Constitution of October 4, 1958

Article 55.

Treaties or agreements duly ratified or approved shall, upon publication, prevail over Acts of Parliament, subject, with respect to each agreement or treaty, to its application by the other party.

In other words, if there's a treaty ratified by France, NO PARLIAMENT CAN MAKE A RULE AGAINST IT.

As a fact, there is such treaty:

Quote 　

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

Article 27

In those States in which ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities exist, persons belonging to such minorities shall not be denied the right, in community with the other members of their group, to enjoy their own culture, to profess and practise their own religion, or to use their own language.

Participant Signature Accession(a), Succession(d), Ratification
France 4 Nov 1980 a

The Parliament has no power to enforce this xenophobic law, because France signed and ratified an International Treaty against this kind of acts.

So, for anybody who knows something about laws...This is a legal aberration.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 16 2010 at 12:38
            
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 12:13
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

Without religion the world would be a better place.

Can you Imagine that?

I'd settle for a world without religious extremists.
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Points: 6898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 12:05
Without religion the world would be a better place.
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 11:48
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Did you even read my first post on the previous page?  These are women who say they were not coerced to wear the burqa, that they do it by choice.  That's their words.

You are only assuming that's how things are.  I provided sources.



You are also speaking for all the women in this situation. The fact that you gave individual examples does not show anything the whole of them. You just accused me of this in your previous post. LOL

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Muslims do not believe in alcohol consumption.  Should Muslim women be forced to drink as well because the government wants to "free them" from their "religious oppression" that they've been a "slave" to since birth?  Confused


Of course not, It's not a good analogy. The good analogy would be: women would be forced to drink a certain drink because it's a symbol of their culture, and the French government would ban this drink on France's territory.


I am certainly not speaking for all women.  I let them speak for themselves, and provided sources.  Their words, not mine.  You are the one speaking for them.

I have not found a single source that says women are forced to wear the burqa in France.  Every one of them they say they choose it.


OK, let me rephrase it. Only a few women have spoken through your sources. Your sources didn't speak for the whole of those women, just for themselves. However there was in an article you posted a survey (which I assume has a more general relevance) where it's said that for women in Muslim countries women's rights are in big sh*t, and that they look up towards the West when thinking of women's rights. What that survey was also saying was that women's oppression in the Muslim countries is implemented in many ways, of which the full veil is not the most stringent.


I'm not trying to speak for all women.  How could I?

However, you speak for all women without any sources.  I have at least done some research on the subject, and let me reiterate that every Muslim woman who spoke specifically about dress did not find it oppressive at all (except for many in Afghanistan).


Not at all, I am basing my opinions on that survey that you're using too, which I found both well done and relevant (even though the title of the article that presented the survey was very misleading).


That being said, I have nothing to add here, or to nuance my positions more, according to the critics they've received. It's been fun, thanks. Thumbs Up I'm turning towards prog issues now.
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Points: 32589 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 11:35
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Did you even read my first post on the previous page?  These are women who say they were not coerced to wear the burqa, that they do it by choice.  That's their words.

You are only assuming that's how things are.  I provided sources.



You are also speaking for all the women in this situation. The fact that you gave individual examples does not show anything the whole of them. You just accused me of this in your previous post. LOL

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Muslims do not believe in alcohol consumption.  Should Muslim women be forced to drink as well because the government wants to "free them" from their "religious oppression" that they've been a "slave" to since birth?  Confused


Of course not, It's not a good analogy. The good analogy would be: women would be forced to drink a certain drink because it's a symbol of their culture, and the French government would ban this drink on France's territory.


I am certainly not speaking for all women.  I let them speak for themselves, and provided sources.  Their words, not mine.  You are the one speaking for them.

I have not found a single source that says women are forced to wear the burqa in France.  Every one of them they say they choose it.


OK, let me rephrase it. Only a few women have spoken through your sources. Your sources didn't speak for the whole of those women, just for themselves. However there was in an article you posted a survey (which I assume has a more general relevance) where it's said that for women in Muslim countries women's rights are in big sh*t, and that they look up towards the West when thinking of women's rights. What that survey was also saying was that women's oppression in the Muslim countries is implemented in many ways, of which the full veil is not the most stringent.


I'm not trying to speak for all women.  How could I?

However, you speak for all women without any sources.  I have at least done some research on the subject, and let me reiterate that every Muslim woman who spoke specifically about dress did not find it oppressive at all (except for many in Afghanistan).
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 11:30
^Let's all agree the burka is an amazing piece of technological engineering... Tongue
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 11:20
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


Yes. So please describe the intricate "components" of the burka. (it really sounds like it has moving partsTongue)


Well, the spring has to be wound tight so that it turns the gears properly, and the vibrations of crystals regulate the movement. In some of the nicer models, small gemstones such as rubies are used to reduce friction and cut down on wear and tear.


No wait.... that's a watch.


Edited by thellama73 - July 16 2010 at 11:32
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 11:18
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

We are referring here to all kind of clothes that cover a women leaving only her eyes visible, they are different in each country and have different names.

Sorry, but that is not the case. We were talking about the specific burka ban in France.

Are "the components" of the burka that important? If they are, can you please enumerate them and mention their relevance? Confused 

I guess only people who have worn a burka once for a demonstration should have any opinion on the matter... Confused

Yes, they are important indeed. I think one should know what one is talking about before banning it. Don't you agree?

Yes. So please describe the intricate "components" of the burka. (it really sounds like it has moving partsTongue)
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Points: 10266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 11:16
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

We are referring here to all kind of clothes that cover a women leaving only her eyes visible, they are different in each country and have different names.

Sorry, but that is not the case. We were talking about the specific burka ban in France.

Are "the components" of the burka that important? If they are, can you please enumerate them and mention their relevance? Confused 

I guess only people who have worn a burka once for a demonstration should have any opinion on the matter... Confused

Yes, they are important indeed. I think one should know what one is talking about before banning it. Don't you agree?
I don't claim to be an expert on the matter; I have worn the thing once and was told the names for the numerous parts (there are LOTS of parts, but I don't claim to have them all in mind; I would have to look them up again). Will it suffice if I give you the name of some parts of the facial veil? That alone is quite a list.


Edited by BaldFriede - July 16 2010 at 11:19


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 11:10
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

We are referring here to all kind of clothes that cover a women leaving only her eyes visible, they are different in each country and have different names.

Sorry, but that is not the case. We were talking about the specific burka ban in France.

Are "the components" of the burka that important? If they are, can you please enumerate them and mention their relevance? Confused 

I guess only people who have worn a burka once for a demonstration should have any opinion on the matter... Confused
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