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Dellinger View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2010 at 23:20
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

I prefer Omega's Hungarian language albums because not knowing what they're singing about adds mystique. Also Hungarian is pleasing to the ear when sung. A certain meloncholy to it. Rammstein has tried to sing in English but their music is far more effective in German. No one understands what the freak trhey"re singing about yet they have followings all around the planet from Australia, South America, Europe, North America to Germany.


I don't know so much about Rammstein, nor about their lyrics, but a friend once told me he did look up translations to their lyrics and they are ridiculous pop-like lyrics.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2010 at 02:07
Why is it surprising that people favour artists that sing in their own language? If you can't understand the lyrics then that's a whole layer of your potential appreciation automatically skimmed off.

Obviously no self-respecting 'open-minded' prog fan would dismiss artists simply because they sing in a foreign language. As others have been quick to point out, the widespread love of RPI, French and other European bands on this board (not to mentiion the universally indecipherable Magma) suggests that the majority of members here are willing to embrace any band, regardless of language, if the music is good enough.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2010 at 02:58
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

I prefer Omega's Hungarian language albums because not knowing what they're singing about adds mystique. Also Hungarian is pleasing to the ear when sung. A certain meloncholy to it. Rammstein has tried to sing in English but their music is far more effective in German. No one understands what the freak trhey"re singing about yet they have followings all around the planet from Australia, South America, Europe, North America to Germany.


I don't know so much about Rammstein, nor about their lyrics, but a friend once told me he did look up translations to their lyrics and they are ridiculous pop-like lyrics.
For what they do, they're pretty good tunesmiths. German does work much better for them than English, because, as you say, their lyrics are generally vulgar and offensive. One of their early singles "Buck Dich" literally translates to "Bend Over." LOL
 
However, the very catchy "Du Riechst So Gut" simply means "You Smell So Good." So yes, mystique works in their favor.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2010 at 05:38
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

I am able to glean so much passion and meaning from Italian vocals.  In fact not understanding the language allows me to "hear" the voice as an instrumental for emotional expression even more.  Same with someone like Christian Decamps of Ange.  I am able to get much expression and value from their vocals.  As a blind person hears better I suppose, I note every guffaw, grunt, cracking falsetto, every little nuance, all the more. 

I have no need to know exactly what they are saying to have enjoyment of the form, in fact I prefer not to allow the written word to bother my appreciation of music as art.  If I want that experience, I pick up a book. 

I don't know if this makes sense, but it is one reason I am so able to appreciate RPI as an English-only American.


I agree with this, however if someone is used to gleaning the emotion of the singer from the lyrics, you can't change the way they listen.  Lot of people listen to music that way, it's not going to change and there's nothing particularly wrong with that though I don't do that personally because I believe the emotion of the singer comes from the selection of tone, attack/approach and ability to express.  No surprises then that I am not particularly crazy about Bob Dylan because those kind of lyrical emotions are not for me.  Where I have loved the way a singer sang a song, with exceptions like Pink Floyd, reading the ordinary lyrics only spoiled it for me. 

I think the parallel with DT is rather silly but I kind of get where he's coming from.  Though not on this forum, I have felt a tendency of the metal crowd to urge people to be 'open minded' towards heavy music even though they themselves often have a lot of biases, not least of all towards any melodic or acoustic music, which is 'sissy' and 'wimpy' in their book.   Er, before you choose to attack me, please bear in mind that I listen to a lot of metal and, uh, 'true' metal at that, you know, like Cannibal Corpse or Terrorizer, not just prog metal.  Doesn't mean I gladly suffer the attitude of these metal fans.  


Edited by rogerthat - September 19 2010 at 05:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 01:38
I have to admit that I took some time to get used to non-english and non-italian languages. I have to thank Anglagard, Collegium Musicum and After Crying for having introduced me to them.

The very strange thing is that I didn't have any problem years before with Kobaian. 

Said so, lyrics may be very important, but not always. We can find rubbish lyrics everywhere, but giving a look to translations when possible, is always a good idea. We can enjoy music without paying attention to the lyrical contents, but if the wall was written in an unknown language, would it have been so appreciated ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 11:48
Being bilingual (English and Spanish), I can say that there's really not a bias in listening to prog that only has English (or Spanish) lyrics.
 
In my collection, I have Italian, French, and Portuguese prog and although I cannot understand a darn thing (just a tad, seeing as Italian and Portuguese are somewhat related to Spanish), I find the music and vocal melodies to be very moving.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 13:55
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I have to admit that I took some time to get used to non-english and non-italian languages. I have to thank Anglagard, Collegium Musicum and After Crying for having introduced me to them.

The very strange thing is that I didn't have any problem years before with Kobaian. 

Said so, lyrics may be very important, but not always. We can find rubbish lyrics everywhere, but giving a look to translations when possible, is always a good idea. We can enjoy music without paying attention to the lyrical contents, but if the wall was written in an unknown language, would it have been so appreciated ?
Good point. "Final Cut" is very "lyrical" than "The Wall" but PF  have too many fans around the world and English is foreign language for many of PF fans.These fans love "The Wall" so much and they may undrestand 50% of "The Wall" lyrics. I see these kind of PF's fans everyday in Iran. They love "Final Cut" too without undrestanding 30% of  lyrics!!! Why? I know the answer. Atmospher of these albums impress to feelings. Lyrics is very important as you said but Music impress is very complex and unexplainable.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 14:34
I'm of a split mind on this one. In my own collection, I have music with lyrics in several languages that I do not understand, or understand only when reading, and in most cases, I am able to enjoy this music by treating the voice as an instrument, as many people have already pointed out on this string. Conversely, the songs I love most tend to be in English, largely because I believe that, where there are words, there is also at least potentially something being said. And I like to know what is being said. This, in combination with its sound, is part of the meaning of any lyric, and to suggest that it is not important seems a tad superficial to me.
 
I will offer an analogy. Several years ago, while living in South Korea, I bought a copy of a Canadian movie of which I am fond. The movie is called Blackrobe, and a large proportion of the dialogue is in the Huron language, i.e. inaccessible to most Canadians. Thus, in its domestic release, the Huron bits have subtitles. In the Korean release, of course the subtitles are in Korean, which even then I could not read quickly enough to follow. The result was that about a third of the dialogue in this movie--dialogue I had once been able to follow via subtitles--I could no longer understand. I could still appreciate the cinematography and other elements of the movie, and even the non-linguistic elements of the acting, but I was accutely aware of how much I was missing, having once had it and then lost it. That said, I believe that the choice of presenting that dialogue in the Huron language was ideal, and added a legitimacy to the film that it would otherwise have lacked.
 
All of this is to say that engaging in music in languages other than one's own is certainly a good idea, as is a band performing in its native tongue. But to claim full appreciation of an art form presented even partially in a language that one does not understand is, I think, self-deceiving.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 15:15
I'm a linguist, so I've got to chime in on this one :)
 
Of course there is a language bias. Paraphrasing some statements from earlier in this thread: non-English bands have to sing in English if they want to break into the US market (and that can be extrapolated to other English speaking countries; or it's difficult and/or expensive to buy non-English music. Those are huge, practical biases that will affect what language bands decide to sing in. I mean, even Xena Warrior Princess had to drop her New Zealand accent to make it on American TV. Is it fair? No way, but because the English-speaking world is essentially insulated from all other languages, most English-speaking people will just act according to least effort. It takes a certain kind of, education perhaps, to break past the English-only world that is so easy to live one's entire life in.
 
Regarding the ability to understand lyrics: in a lot of cases the lyrics aren't so interesting anyway, and you're better off not understanding them and just digging the sounds and art that is language. I discovered this by attending operas: once I saw the English subtitles and realized how shallow and silly the lyrics were, I was glad I could close my eyes and revel in the fact that I couldn't understand that nonesense. This is the power of Kobaian, you know you're not supposed to understand it, so you listen to the sounds instead of the words.
 
That said, do I get more out of Gong than someone who doesn't know English? I'd say so. Do I get less out of Omega because I don't know Hungarian? Sure, but I can use that as reason to learn more about the Hungarian language and culture. Diversity is what makes the world a fun place. What sometimes doesn't work out too well is when English lyrics are written by non-speakers and the idioms are messed up, or there are simply poor choices of words. As for the singers themselves, well, Suzuki-era Can wouldn't be as rich without a Japanese accent.
 
And for the English-hater above, there's no such thing as a natural language with a limited grammar. All languages spoken by human beings as a first language are equally able to express their experience in the world. No language is inherently "better" than any other. You don't have to like the sound of a given language, nor should anyone feel obligated to learn a language they don't want to. But to say a language is a crippling tool is plain wrong.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 15:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 19:07
Originally posted by SFranke SFranke wrote:

It's my belief that a non-trivial set of the fans of progressive rock have a very strong bias against albums in which the vocals are not sung in English.
 
It has been an issue for a long time, and there used to be a solution for it ... make up your own translation, and I guarantee you that the music will sound even better.
 
The real issue is that the "english" speaking market commands the most sales all around since China is not up to today's standars yet ... if they were, everyone would be trying to go sell it all and sing in Chinese ... it's at least twice the potential sales of the English speaking people's! ... this ought to get some London'ers really upset!
 
Originally posted by SFranke SFranke wrote:

... To not investigate albums in a language other than your own is like a fan of film who refuses to watch foreign movies. ...
 
Goodness ... you haven't met me yet! I have spent 20 years telling people at the Portland International Film Festival that they should always catch the small films from nowhere land ... since the English and American films will all find their way to DVD ... the rest? Gone forever! And a lot of the same thing happens in music.
 
I accept it better now than I had before ... still having a hard time getting these metal'ists to get mental and serious about listening instead of just one kind of sound effect on the guitar ... and a screaming person over it saying something or other that supposedly is meaningful and relevant to our ...
One strong example ... ANGE is far better and creative and inventive than Genesis ever was ... and unlike Genesis, it did not give up or in to the commercial thing and maintained their inner strength and music. But cold day in hell that anyone here is going to appreciate Christian Decamps and his work!
 
I thought PFM was better in Italian than they were in English ... where the translations were lacking and many times off key ... "Is My Head On Straight" might be the only exception, but not sure that Americans know the difference or appreciate the Faust reference. After all, Faust is not a rapper, and neither was Goethe!
 
Originally posted by SFranke SFranke wrote:

I think this bias, which may be quite subtle, perpetuates itself in many ways. It is undeniably more difficult to find non-English progressive music than albums by bands who release theirs in English, many of whom speak a primary language other than English. These albums won't be discussed as much, and so people won't know to seek them out. Fewer albms of this are pressed, and so on.
 
It's one of the big raps about a lot of eastern European music ... and it was way more important and bigger before the WALL came down ... an event that was HUGE for music and a lot of the arts, but that is something that a board like this, which is mostly "fan driven" is not capable of enjoying a discussion on ... too many folks will simply maul it down with trolling comments to show their lack of appreciation or desire to see that discussed and not their favorite beat or music! It's almost the same when someone calls something "prog" and the discussion starts up, and the only difference is a sound effect on the guitar ... unplug it, and you have ...
Originally posted by SFranke SFranke wrote:

... And before you point out the absurdity of prog artists factoring in commercial interests to their creative process, check out your collection for total albums in English and those in English by bands who do not use English as their primary language.
 
There are many bands that use the English very well and know how to accentuate when they need to. Amon Duul 2 was magnificent on that for a very long time ... and the difference was that they were not exactly singing a hit song ... they were doing something else ... for which lyrics might or might not be important ... or relevant ... but they challenged you nonetheless ... and there are not many bands that can do that at all. A lot of the krautrock bands did the german thing and it did not help get them to America at all ... since the language was an issue ... heck, you know what the issue is? ... my roomate is playing Golden Earring ... we're talking the week Moontan came out, not 6 months later when the album made it big and huge, btw ... and the other turkey announcer butted in and said "it's not rock'n'roll" ... and Guy immediately interrupted "Are You Receiving Me" ... and said ... "who cares about rock'n'roll. It's great music!" ... and to this day, there are many people -- every where -- that are not listening to the "music" ... they are listening to a hit, to this and that ... and have no idea what the "music" really stands for in the first place.
 
And until the day and time and place when people learn that there is a world out there, and that they speak differently  and that they know different things, and play different musics ... more than once in a blue moon ... I'm just not sure that you can have a nice and wide open discussion that is not xenophobic ... heck, these folks still go around saying God is American! The Brazilians, of course, say Deus e Carioca, and the Argentinians used to say Deus e Maradona, and others are ready for a Jihad!  ... but so many people here couldn't careless ... and Brazil and Argentina have no experimental or progressive music ... a lot more than we will ever give them credit for!
 
It's never been about the music ... but I am glad of one thing ... I know in my heart that I have been a big part in helping it be seen and heard and understood! For 40 years!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2010 at 19:30
Originally posted by Lark the Starless Lark the Starless wrote:

Being bilingual (English and Spanish), I can say that there's really not a bias in listening to prog that only has English (or Spanish) lyrics.
 
In my collection, I have Italian, French, and Portuguese prog and although I cannot understand a darn thing (just a tad, seeing as Italian and Portuguese are somewhat related to Spanish), I find the music and vocal melodies to be very moving.
 
But that's cheating ... you and I can see a movie from these countries and within 15 minutes we can sync in to the subtitles and boom ... we know what they are saying.  And the music does not appear so foreign to me due to my classical music upbringing ... there is a difference between German Music and italian Music ... and you can start with some opera as the greatest examples of it all.
 
The same can not be said for English ... whose music can not be said to be totally original ... well to be fair, they killed the originals a long time ago, like it happened in America ... and you have a "misplaced european" in search for a soul and ignoring their very ancestors and the ghosts of the past ... and I doubt that America will have a better sense of "self" and "person" until they better focus and nurture and involve the cultural elements of those ... they helped get rid of. In a way, sub-consciously, these people are trying to find an identity ... but I'm not sure you can as long as you deny the existance of the past, and your own "sins" and "crimes" ... Europe by comparison has gone quite far beyond that and the cross culturization of Europe is very good, specially in the arts ... but in America? ... it's an idea ... there is no culturization of anything when you compare the West Coast to the East Coast to the South Coast to the Northern Coast ... it's a different country! And mind you ... they don't speak English around here ... some speak Ebonics, some speak Texan, some speak Jive ... you can imagine what happens to the music after all that! ... yeah ... only top ten in every "style" ... is possible in America, since no one can imagine a group in NY being better than the group in LA ... so the difference becomes who sells the most! And Billboard will tell you about it ... how do you think that Country Music got there? ... it was not even considered a valid music for the longest time!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2010 at 14:44
May be english language is the most practical and versatile, its short words make it a fast and effective language in order anyone can say too much ideas in few words. Sounds like dogs bark jajajaja but it doesn't matter.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2010 at 15:13
Originally posted by ferush ferush wrote:

May be english language is the most practical and versatile, its short words make it a fast and effective language in order anyone can say too much ideas in few words. Sounds like dogs bark jajajaja but it doesn't matter.
 
To most people, the most beautiful language is their own. Fair enough: our native tongues are what we are most used to, and what we measure other languages against. Other languages will often seem dissonant or even ugly by comparison. There are many sounds in English that seem ugly to speakers of other languages: the consonants can sound harsh to some, while to others, the large number of unvoiced TH's and terminal S's make it sound as though English speakers spend all their time hissing at each other. But to actually criticize one language because it doesn't meet the standards of beauty arising from another language, as seems to be going on in this post above ("sounds like dogs barking jajajaja") is bigotted in the extreme, and illustrates nothing more than the narrowness of one's own standards.
 
Please, folks: Let's keep it respectful.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2010 at 15:40
Hi,
 
We just gotta get "smarter" ... it really is how Guy Guden used to talk about it, when people hit the language thing ... create your own translation and world with it ... this way the art itself can shine better! 
 
It really does!
 
If you have travelled and seen and heard many other languages, doing this is not an issue ... but if one lives on a steady diet of American TV, I seriously doubt that those folks are capable of listening and appreciating other languages and arts without some serious educational effort which we know the Bush's never paid for and no one else will in the future either!
 
The internet, is almost all about this cross culturization ... unlike the majority of the media in this country. It's rather simple.
 
But it's sad, that we're afraid to listen to someone sing in a different language ... we're denying them the right to live their love and their art ... and that is plain wrong! 


Edited by moshkito - September 22 2010 at 15:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2010 at 18:56
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
We just gotta get "smarter" ... it really is how Guy Guden used to talk about it, when people hit the language thing ... create your own translation and world with it ... this way the art itself can shine better! 
 
It really does!
 
If you have travelled and seen and heard many other languages, doing this is not an issue ... but if one lives on a steady diet of American TV, I seriously doubt that those folks are capable of listening and appreciating other languages and arts without some serious educational effort which we know the Bush's never paid for and no one else will in the future either!
 
The internet, is almost all about this cross culturization ... unlike the majority of the media in this country. It's rather simple.
 
But it's sad, that we're afraid to listen to someone sing in a different language ... we're denying them the right to live their love and their art ... and that is plain wrong! 

Nicely said.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2010 at 22:21
Originally posted by ferush ferush wrote:

May be english language is the most practical and versatile, its short words make it a fast and effective language in order anyone can say too much ideas in few words. Sounds like dogs bark jajajaja but it doesn't matter.


More likely english songs are more succesful because it's the language of the most powerful and influential country in the world, and most people choose english as their first "second" language to learn. Just as latin was at it's time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 14:08

Rock and Roll started in the U.S. in English. It really started getting good in the U.K. in English. Many non-English speaking musicians grew up listening to English rock and blues. It seems reasonable that these musicians might choose to sing in English some of the time. But in the end I'd bet it's a question of being able to tour outside one's own country. An Albanian pop singer can sing in Albanian because there will be a big enough audience. A prog band has a limited enough audience as it is, vanishingly so in only one country with a smallish population. 

If we were going for short words as the criterion, I think Vietnamese or something would be the language of choice. In any case, prog lyrics tend towards the long and Latinate: "Must put aside the alienation, Get on with the fascination, The real relation, The underlying theme." Lotsa big words there.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2010 at 17:26
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by ferush ferush wrote:

May be english language is the most practical and versatile, its short words make it a fast and effective language in order anyone can say too much ideas in few words. Sounds like dogs bark jajajaja but it doesn't matter.


More likely english songs are more succesful because it's the language of the most powerful and influential country in the world, and most people choose english as their first "second" language to learn. Just as latin was at it's time.
 
We might have to be careful with this and how it is said, I think ...
 
Both America and England are also perceived as imperialists in many ways, and England had a massive history of it many hundred years. Thus, the concept and idea that the English language is the most practical and versatile ... is not necessarily true ... I do believe that it is so, because these two countries pretty much got themselves involved in radio and television and the media right away ... and never looked back ... there are countries that don't even allow you a camera ... or a picture ... and still suppresses film and music like you wouldn't believe!  ... that means that your view and idea is much more visible to others than otherwise.
 
I find the Latin languages much more expressive than English ... why? The number of verb tenses alone makes for a more detailed speak and set of expressions that in English do not exist. However, just like the romance languages (as the Latin languages are called), English has its own beauty ... but we don't know the Cervantes, the Camoes, and Dante ... as well as Shakespeare ... see the difference all of a sudden? ... it would be difficult to proove that English has the better expression ...!
 
Poetry, at least on my own father's examples, in Portuguese (Jorge de Sena) ... is very difficult for me to even translate to English because ... the expressions go through 24 tenses and add details to your mind and possibilities, that I can not use in English ... and here is an example ... and it happens here ... I will be discussing and make a comment that has a verbe tense in a what if? scenario, which is highly used in the Latin languages, and a lot of folks here, as well, do not like it and think that I have set out to insult them and their intelligence ... in other words, I can not even ask how/what they are thinking and how they see it ... and all I can think of is ... I don't think they know ... you just about have to be involved in 2 or 3 languages to acquire that sensibility ... it doesn't make them wrong ... it just makes it more difficult to communicate with as it appears, all of a sudden, that everything is wrong ... and of course ... nothing is wrong except that the filters are all messed up between the two cultures!
 
As for language choice ... in Portugal and Brazil in the 50's and 60's the secondary language was French ... I believe it still is, and would need someone here to correct me if they are there. English, more than likely is now a much more appealing option, however, for many artistic reasons ... and the two major ones ... we're talking about one of them. The other? ... easy ... movies!
 
And yes ... BLACK ROBE is an excellent film ... sad one too ... because you know it's a dead end and there is no chance ... and sometimes I cry ... and hope that progressive music does not befall into a similar fate ... over run by commercial interests and imperialistic ideas. The true art and "spirit" must survive ... your own culture will suffer when you kill a portion of it!


Edited by moshkito - September 23 2010 at 17:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2010 at 21:58
^ Well, I'm not particularly happy that US is the most powerful and influential country in the worle, but in the end it's true.

By the way, being from a spanish speaking country, for me Shakespeare is as well known as Cervantes and Dante, but I must admit I don't know who Camoes is.
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