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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
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Points: 19255
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Posted: November 22 2010 at 17:04 |
richardh wrote:
Although someone I know always goes on about the time when Van Halen supported Black Sabbath. Van Halen were a breath of fresh air and then Sabbath came on and plodded there way through War Pigs etc They were shown up by Van Halen. This would have been late seventies I imagine. |
Had to have been at the end of their time with Ozz when the chemistry was nil. It couldn't have been the Heaven & Hell Tour with Dio.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 30106
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Posted: November 22 2010 at 13:57 |
I just think that without an audience that is appreciative then what is the point? If Zappa wants to charge tickets to see him conduct a band and people want to go and see it then fine. Music like all art is totally in the eye of the beholder. An unmade bed is art to some but to me it might just as well be a pile of crap.Am I missing the point? Very likely but at the end of the day I'm only going to appreciate music (or anything for that matter) within frames of reference that I can understand.
The commercial aspect is just part of reality. It may be wrong to assume that commercialism is going to produce 'bad art' simply because you don't like it. Thats just snobbishness in my book.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: November 20 2010 at 09:24 |
I rarely agree with moshkito (also TODDLER in this case) but this time I do. The cult of personality is what propelled rock to the limelight but that is what eventually brought it down to its knees and rendered it hollow, superficial and crassy, all the things that rock fans call pop and deride it for it. And unlike pop, you have a whole bunch of critics who 'validate' the business of attaching more importance to non musical factors like dress, 'attitude' and what not, so it is probably quite deeply entrenched in the psyche of many rock fans that a showman is more worthy of attention than a musician. However, maybe because I was born too late to witness the rise and decline of rock, I don't really feel the need to lash out at it and, perhaps cynically, feel with the benefit of hindsight that it was sort of inevitable (especially once the musicians are 'sold' to the public on a premise that has to do with things other than the music itself).
On a more pertinent note, Frank Zappa really is a composer employing superb sessions musicians to perform his songs, so the extent of his role in a concert would not be so important to me because I would count much more on the likes of Chester Thompson doing their job well that evening. As for guitarwork, I would rather pay to watch Holdsworth stand, 'do nothing' but play amazing guitar.
Edited by rogerthat - November 20 2010 at 09:26
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
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Location: Vineland, N.J.
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Posted: November 20 2010 at 07:38 |
richardh wrote:
moshkito wrote:
richardh wrote:
You can appreciate a musician privately and in your time quite happily without bothering to spend money and effort to get to a gig just to see a guy basically do nothing. I would have demanded a refund to be honest if anyone dared to do this to me.Showed no respect to his fans imo.
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You do realize that what you just said is quite wrong about a lot of music in the past 400 years, right?
And you missed out on the subtleties that a lot of conductors have in their work ... like you really should check yout Herbert von Karajan, or Erich Leinsdorf, or a Leonard Bernstein ... people that pretty much made composers famous because of the way they played the music ... and it is how we remember it and know it!
Frank Zappa, and there is a lot of literature about it, and is in a couple of books, got really tired of his rock fan audience and the lack of respect for his music. And I really believe an artist has the right to stand up for his music and not be a slave to an audience.
In my book, this is the problem with a consumerist/commercial audience and society ... you look at Frank as "your product", and he has to kiss your bunny in order for you to be happy ... and I'm sorry to tell you that is not a role that a lot of musicians and artists are interested in ... specially if you are going to call them "progressive".
An artist is NOT, your product ... and if you go see him and you get something else, who's to say that the problem is that you did not listen, or see, that there was a lot more about this artist and his music than the 3 songs you liked that you wanted to hear.
What's the point of an "artist", or "progressive" ... when you don't allow him to be one?
Between you and I, may I make a small suggestion that you go over and evaluate your understanding of what "progressive" means, and what the whole thing is about ... because none of it would have existed if they had done what you wanted and nothing else ... are you sure that is what you want? ... there are placebo's out there you can take and many fake bands! |
And once people stop buying the albums then what happens?
Did a record company ever not promote Zappa's music?
Did Zappa never resort to gimmicks to get people interested?
What is 'progressive music'? Is it not in the eye or ear of the beholder or are you the only one who really appreciates what a true artist and what 'progressive' means?
An artist is very much my product. If they dont sing and dance to my tune then stuff em! |
You should learn to except the FACT that an artist is not on this earth to shake your booty. That's the record executives way of doing business and if that appeals to you ....fine....but you shouldn't expect the artist to toe that line any longer than they have to since record executives positions were and are controlled by x-revolutionaries from the 60's, 80's New Wavers, and duck billed misinformed 90's geeks and most of them have no clue what it is like to be an artist, compose, produce, perform etc. They are in the business to make musicians plastic or cardboard cut-outs. So F them! What the hell do they know about a good album?
It's like the musician is sitting on a stool playing the most beautiful prog music or even the most rockin' stuff of originality and in walks this flippin' guy with money and he says....Wait a minute ....dress like this! I'll bring in someone for fashion, write your song in a more simplified way, change the lyrics, take out that solo etc. Now the musician is suddenly dressed in F-IN circus clothes and singing about some stupied violence, sex indulgment, or whatever and it's just complete garbage. That's art? Get the hell out of here! That's garbage in America! Commercialized American rubbish. It destroyed Rock Music and not just the snooty Prog but, Rock music has lost it's spark for decades because the nerds I mentioned above had pathetic things on their agenda. Rory Gallagher, and loads of others who were once diverse simply just in ROCK music! There is no more ROCK music! Just look at what the idiots mentioned above did to it? Alice In Chains!....You call that ROCK music? Alternative Rock? Alternative to what? The garbage from the mainstream 80's? The fact is...real earthy ROCK music died long ago when the business JO'S decided to hold artistic Rock musicians bound in chains and left with the only option of human survival was to stamp out art! These are facts not opinions. You need to research more history if you disagree with that. Preference has little to do with it. The fact is America has been commercialized mainstream music for decades now. All of the media's stupied and false representation of the WOODSTOCK festival and just the 60's in general is a LIE! I wonder how Americans would feel if I changed the historical representation of sports? They certainly don't seem to give a crap about how they are being lied to when it comes to the presentation of the 60's. I know for a fact, because I research the ratings on this crap and you know? It's all about how THEY (as in staff media)..want to tell the old stories. They put emphasis on rubbish and the facts are not realized. Whenever an artist goes off and changes their approach in music, it is non-excepted by the norm because the industry has everyone in the world conditioned to a large degree.
Edited by TODDLER - November 20 2010 at 07:49
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The Neck Romancer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 01 2010
Location: Brazil
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Points: 10189
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 19:08 |
questionsneverknown wrote:
Well the most recent was just a few months ago.Went to see the combo show of Porcupine Tree opening for Coheed and Cambria. The Dear Hunter started everything off and I'd only heard of them but hadn't actually heard them yet--I was pleasantly surprised. So Band One was quite good. Porcupine Tree were fantastic, though it was sad to see them in an opening slot (especially having seen the whole Incident tour last year). Band Two good, too. Then Coheed and Cambria came on. Like the Dear Hunter, I had heard the name but nothing of the music. But this was the big band, the one most people had apparently paid their money to see. Ugh. The music had that repetitive anthemic quality that reminded of KISS plus one of those pop-punk groups from the 90s that had a number in their name. Fairly average stuff, I thought. The experience was worsened by the audience, which seemed quite intelligent up to this point, transforming into a mob of frat boys pounding fists and chanting along with the anthems. Ah well, they were having a good time, but I thought driving home seemed like a better idea.
Not the worst live experience, but the most vivid right now. More memories will arise. |
Porcupine Tree wasn't opening for Coheed; both were the main act on that tour.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 17:56 |
Tony R wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
^saw van halen at Donnington and they were great. |
Well that was probably 6 years or so later so they would have more material to use. Bet if you saw raw video they'd sound pretty shoddy.
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I have Live Without A Net and that's pretty good. And you are right, they were performing from the 1984 album and AC/DC headlined! 
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
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Points: 11985
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 17:54 |
Snow Dog wrote:
^saw van halen at Donnington and they were great. |
Well that was probably 6 years or so later so they would have more material to use. Bet if you saw raw video they'd sound pretty shoddy.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 17:50 |
^saw van halen at Donnington and they were great.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
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Points: 11985
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 17:44 |
I saw Zappa on the "Shut Up & Play Your Guitar" Tour and that was pretty horrendous, sounded like one endless 3hr guitar solo. Robert Fripp opening for PT was mind-numbingly dull. Sorry Mr Fripp.
The worst headlining band of any type I saw was Van Halen on their first headline tour of the UK. They had literally blown Black Sabbath off the stage as a support band but they came back with just one album's worth of material to play and that's just what they did. The concert lasted about 65 minutes (it was still light when we got outside) and they managed to perform two bass solos and 2 drum solos in that time. The debut album is one of the greatest rock albums of all time, but in concert they were just naff. Shame really. Having seen various youtube videos of them performing live over the years since, I am not sure they got any better.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 16:55 |
^ Richard! Listen to the master!
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 30106
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 16:46 |
moshkito wrote:
richardh wrote:
You can appreciate a musician privately and in your time quite happily without bothering to spend money and effort to get to a gig just to see a guy basically do nothing. I would have demanded a refund to be honest if anyone dared to do this to me.Showed no respect to his fans imo.
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You do realize that what you just said is quite wrong about a lot of music in the past 400 years, right?
And you missed out on the subtleties that a lot of conductors have in their work ... like you really should check yout Herbert von Karajan, or Erich Leinsdorf, or a Leonard Bernstein ... people that pretty much made composers famous because of the way they played the music ... and it is how we remember it and know it!
Frank Zappa, and there is a lot of literature about it, and is in a couple of books, got really tired of his rock fan audience and the lack of respect for his music. And I really believe an artist has the right to stand up for his music and not be a slave to an audience.
In my book, this is the problem with a consumerist/commercial audience and society ... you look at Frank as "your product", and he has to kiss your bunny in order for you to be happy ... and I'm sorry to tell you that is not a role that a lot of musicians and artists are interested in ... specially if you are going to call them "progressive".
An artist is NOT, your product ... and if you go see him and you get something else, who's to say that the problem is that you did not listen, or see, that there was a lot more about this artist and his music than the 3 songs you liked that you wanted to hear.
What's the point of an "artist", or "progressive" ... when you don't allow him to be one?
Between you and I, may I make a small suggestion that you go over and evaluate your understanding of what "progressive" means, and what the whole thing is about ... because none of it would have existed if they had done what you wanted and nothing else ... are you sure that is what you want? ... there are placebo's out there you can take and many fake bands! |
And once people stop buying the albums then what happens?
Did a record company ever not promote Zappa's music?
Did Zappa never resort to gimmicks to get people interested?
What is 'progressive music'? Is it not in the eye or ear of the beholder or are you the only one who really appreciates what a true artist and what 'progressive' means?
An artist is very much my product. If they dont sing and dance to my tune then stuff em!
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Cactus Choir
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2008
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 1043
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 14:56 |
The two bad gigs that stand out are Van Morrison and Living Colour at Nottingham in the 90s. This was down in both cases to the attitude of the performers who gave off the attitude they were doing the audience a favour by being there. I suppose Van The Man being a miserable curmudgeon wasn't an earth shattering surprise but I was really disappointed with Living Colour. They seemed to resent the fact they were playing to a mostly white rock audience. Hey guys, it was us honkies who'd been buying a lot of your albums!
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"And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!"
"He's up the pub"
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TODDLER
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 10:01 |
I saw Bad Company upon their first visit to America. They opened for Edgar Winter at the Spectrum in Philadelphia. They were like a poor man's version of the band Free. Mick Ralphs was nowhere near the level of a player like Paul Kossoff. The audience response was welcoming and the band was tight. The next day Paul Rodgers stated in the Philadelphia newspapers ..."We gave Edgar Winter a run for his money" Sorry Paul, not this lifetime. The Edgar Winter and Rick Derringer band performed some very stupied and tasteless Stadium Rock songs with outstanding Blues and Jazz/Fusion solos. Edgar Winter was outstanding on sax that night and Rick Derringer played some very clean and free form guitar solos. I was dreading the drawn out Stadium Rock songs but, waited patiently for their improvisation. There were very diverse players trying to make a living. Not one musician could pull off a solo like that in Bad Company. Edgar Winter played 3 encores and the lights were turned on by staff members. The audience screamed and fights broke out and security guards had one hell of a job to do then. The lights were turned on as a statement to the band to get the F off the stage. Larry Magid was probably behind it because he didn't want to pay guards or staff members overtime. This type of situation I can't see happening at Bill Graham's Fillmore East and West. Maybe a few times it did but it was evident to all that these were the times of major change in the music business. The change of practices and rules that once gave musicians freedom of expression. The concert ended with a bad vibe in the air.
I saw U.K. open for Al Dimeloa at the Tower Theatre in Philadelphia. Al Dimeola was touring off the Casino album. U.K. were totally great! Thay gave one beautiful performance that night. Alan Holdsworth's guitar was turned so far down into the mix that he was almost missing from the ranks. You could plainly see that he was playing the most outstanding stuff! A few times that we did hear his guitar, it was completely mind blowing and suddenly they would shut him out of the mix. Al Dimeola being an excellent guitarist should have been able to withstand somebody elses talent or even stand up tall and except who he was compared to another man's playing. If in fact...he was the one behind it all? Sometimes it's the manager who pays the sound tech extra to perform this act of sabotage. Jobson, Wetton, and Bruford performed magnificently through the mix of treble, feedback, and dropouts. But the sound tech won the battle in the end causing U.K. to sound overall less impressive and even un-professional. Al Dimeloa entered the stage with a mix or sound that compared to one of the most highly regarded Frank Zappa productions. The concert sucked for this reason only. I walked..
Edited by TODDLER - November 19 2010 at 10:18
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13862
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 09:59 |
sydbarrett2010 wrote:
lazland wrote:
It's probably been done before somewhere, but this thread was prompted by watching the telly this morning, when my wife wouldn't let me get her off the computer
I put on Sky Arts to watch Pink Floyd perform DSOTM (from the Pulse DVD, but without any of the other tracks).
I remember seeing this tour, and reliving it this morning, reminded me of just how awful I thought it was. Yep, although DSOTM is a five star classic in my mind, I felt at the time, and again today, just how awful the gig was. The terrible female vocals on Great Gig In The Sky, the vastly unnecessarily overextended Money (with poor old Dick having the indignity of a bunch of gyrating females behind him whilst trying to remember how to play the sax), the obligatory percussionist doing the obligatory jumping up and down whilst, at the same time, saving Nick Mason from being a silent witness, and the conclusion I reached at the time that this was merely a band going through the motions without the man who was passionate about the lyrics he had written.
Controversial, I know. But, what was your biggest live disappointment? A gig or tour you had really looked forward to, but ended up being a total dud.
Give your reasons
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i think you have a problem what the f**k is this pulse is the best concert ever and the female vocal on tggits is just awesomeeeeee and money and everything i was just watching this it was the greatest preformance
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Syd. I do, indeed, have a problem. I went to see the doctor about it this morning. He diagnosed it as Pulsus sh*titus. He said it was incurable, as repeated taking of medicinal listenings do not make it any better.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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sydbarrett2010
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 08 2010
Location: iran
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Points: 595
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 09:46 |
lazland wrote:
It's probably been done before somewhere, but this thread was prompted by watching the telly this morning, when my wife wouldn't let me get her off the computer
I put on Sky Arts to watch Pink Floyd perform DSOTM (from the Pulse DVD, but without any of the other tracks).
I remember seeing this tour, and reliving it this morning, reminded me of just how awful I thought it was. Yep, although DSOTM is a five star classic in my mind, I felt at the time, and again today, just how awful the gig was. The terrible female vocals on Great Gig In The Sky, the vastly unnecessarily overextended Money (with poor old Dick having the indignity of a bunch of gyrating females behind him whilst trying to remember how to play the sax), the obligatory percussionist doing the obligatory jumping up and down whilst, at the same time, saving Nick Mason from being a silent witness, and the conclusion I reached at the time that this was merely a band going through the motions without the man who was passionate about the lyrics he had written.
Controversial, I know. But, what was your biggest live disappointment? A gig or tour you had really looked forward to, but ended up being a total dud.
Give your reasons
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i think you have a problem what the f**k is this pulse is the best concert ever and the female vocal on tggits is just awesomeeeeee and money and everything i was just watching this it was the greatest preformance
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
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Points: 5210
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 09:31 |
Saw Bob Dylan in 94. He had a full band but was messing with the arrangements on stage without any cues for the others, had a look of hatred for the audience, his voice was awful. Saw him again about two years ago, he stood behind a cheap keyboard the whole time. Voice was a little better, seemed bored rather than hateful. He was with Merle Haggard who even mentioned on stage how he thought a tour with Dylan would be a party and it was a snoozefest.
I've actually seen Indigo Girls many times, most of them awesome but they had one gig where the sound was terrible and Amy went into a free form poem ending in her screaming "I'm a killer" over and over.
I think Dylan back in his prime did some amazing work, but don't waste your money.
I've seen alot of bland gigs but few truly bad ones. (Van Hagar anyone?) I love music so I give quite a bit of leeway. The hardest is inconsistent bands where you've seen them be just magical and you tell your friends and the next gig they're boring.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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slipperman
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 05 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 217
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 09:26 |
Trettioariga Kriget, NEARfest 2009, was pretty disappointing. Guitarist was really sloppy, and it was a mere shadow of what makes T.K. so great in the first place.
But then I didn't stay for the whole set, maybe they got amazing as soon as I stepped out.
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...it is real...it is Rael...
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TODDLER
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Location: Vineland, N.J.
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 08:21 |
I saw Robin Trower at the Spectrum in Philadelphia for the Bridge Of Sighs tour. His guitar was so loud, the bass and drums were hardly present. People have said in the past...."But you see?" " That's what Hendrix did". I disagree based on the evidence of all the film concert footage and live recordings where it is obvious that Hendrix applied dynamics with volume. There's always those films of Hendrix or a clip let us say, where most people view him playing some type of feedback full lock volume solo. Trower for some reason had no interest in turning his volume down out of respect to his band members or audience. Even the beautiful Rock style ballad "In This Place" was so loud that the enjoyment of his expression to be diverse at times was lost.
I saw him again at the Tower Theatre in Philadelphia in the 80's. Same deal only worse because the volume in this smaller building had no place to bounce around. It was like a trapped sound that was extremely in your face.Times when he would simply stroke the string with his guitar pick and your internal organs felt disconnected. You know that sound when a jet's wheels are first touching the landing strip? My friends wanted to stay so I sat in the lobby.
Weather Report, Tower Theatre.......I don't remember the date. It was the first tour they did after the departure of Jaco and Peter E. I stood at the side of the stage watching Wayne Shorter. What an amazing player. They had hired new players and Wayne Shorter paced back and forth gawking at them and for the whole night. Once he walked over to Zawnul and complained waving his hands and eventually having some choice words for the new members. The music had no soul. The new members raced through the beautiful compositions of W.R. like a day at the race track. Wayne Shorter is technically brilliant but melodic so really, they were missing the point causing the band to lose it's impact of performance.
I saw Yes at the JFK stadium. During their performance of "Ritual", members of the audience decided to set the seats on fire. Eventually the fire extended across an entrie side of the stadium and the fire department was brought in. Yes continued their extensive and errie jam deriving from the center of the "Ritual" piece throughout the end. I'm off thread again because Yes were very great that night however the fire was quite dangerous and it's a reminder to many how any act of extreme violent measures can reveal itself to you at a Rock concert.
Procol Harum at the Spectrum May 13th 1977. They were God awful as they fumbled through the old classics and performed also,...their new material from "Something Magic". That night it was known to me as "Something Tragic". It just sounded like a bunch of guys who were no longer Procol Harum. Brooker and BJ were the only members left from the salad days and the new members really didn't compliment the band's compositions. They were at the end of the line.
5/13/77 Return To Forever. They had 2 of the original members Chick Corea and Stanley Clarke. Clarke sat on a stool during the middle of the band's performance and played various Classical compositions using a bow and it was just incredible. All the musicians were impeccable but the essence of what I felt with the Romantic Warrior version was lost. Changing of members can ultimately dissapoint the fan.
BTO opened for Ten Years After at the Spectrum May of 74'. It was horrible. Cheap chord progressions stolen from "The Who". "The Who" had originality. This was commercial and on the ashes of "The Guess Who" and they were just writing the same style but with a harder edge to it. Staduim Rock.
Reo Speed Wagon opened for Mott the Hoople and they were bland middle of the road Rock music. They had zero hits at this time. The "Hi- Infidelity" album had yet to surface. The style was Staduim Rock and difficult to sit through.
Johnny Winter at the Spectrum 5/21/76 was a huge disappointment. While being a great guitarist that night, the material itself was cheap boogie and fashioned to a "Stadium Rock" trend. I was thinking only of how inspiring he was with his first 2 Blues releases and now he had to be like everybody else. Rotten show!
Black Oak Arkansas headlined over 2 great bands....Back Street Crawler and Rory Gallagher. Black Oak Arkansas played their stupied "Jim Dandy to the rescue" and their style fit into the arena rock era. A real painful show. Jim Dandy had the David Lee Roth look years before Van Halen hit the scene. He had his scrub board and assistant bimbo Ruby Starr on stage with him. For all the fantastic musicians that derive from the Southern United States, this was if anything, a disgrace to them.
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JS19
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Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1321
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 08:14 |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Hercules wrote:
My own worst gigs include Can (Berlin - left halfway through) and King Crimson (London - I wanted to shoot Jamie Muir whose antics completely ruined an otherwise passable show) and Hawkwind (in York - the music was awful and the dancer utterly repulsive)
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Someone actually being disparaging of Muir and Can? Unbelievable. This is the saddest thing I've ever read. Even worse is the fact that you praise some post-89 rubbish right before hurling that insult at real musicians. |
YAY Walter's back. Now go away and take your stupid infantile hate somewhere else and grow up a bit. Other people have opinions, and by the look of it, they all have much more evidence/believability than 'everything post '89 is rubbish' which everyone knows perfectly well to be complete rubbish
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popski3125
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Joined: October 13 2006
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 12
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Posted: November 19 2010 at 00:02 |
There are two types of bad/poor performance. The first is when everything just goes wrong. The second is when the performers just don't care.
I have a recording of Greg Lake, and at the end he thanks the audience for allowing him to work for them.
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