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rdtprog
Special Collaborator
Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams
Joined: April 04 2009
Location: Mtl, QC
Status: Offline
Points: 5501
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Posted: December 02 2010 at 06:17 |
Not many albums need repeated listening. When they do it's because you try to find something good in a album that doesn't have a impact on you or because they have such a impact on you that you need to listen to it over again just for your listening pleasure. If you have to do a review of a album that you don't like, i don't think that repeated listening will help brings more positive things. For me, it doesn't take many listening to make my judgement on a album, a progressive rock album, i mean. But as far as make a review of a classical album, it would take me forever, because the complexity of this kind of music is beyond me.
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jean-marie
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 27 2010
Location: FRANCE
Status: Offline
Points: 2585
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Posted: December 02 2010 at 07:18 |
It's a matter of fact some albums are pure evidences and others need several spins, and we're talking about albums but what about tracks? an album is a pieces collection even if in prog a piece sometimes was a whole record side.Today we can listen to a lot of stuff but i just remember when i was a teen ( 69 ) i had little money and little choice in my town shop so had no choice than to listen again and again, without that i maybe wouldn't appreciate so much records as UMMAGUMMA or THIRD ( ther's many other examples )
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
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Posted: December 02 2010 at 09:45 |
The notion that all prog albums need repeated listenings and all albums benefit from this is a perfectly valid opinion. The key word here being, "opinion".
Personally, after 2 years of listening to an album, I usually don't listen to it anymore (or at least, vary rarely). I played the 70's Yes albums constantly for two years, now I might pull one of them out once or twice a year, if even that. Personally, I think that 2 years is about the amount of time it takes for me to get tired of hearing even the most complex and deep albums (assuming I'm listening to them at least once a week).
Also, you can write a review of any album after one listen. It might not be a good review, but there is no valid reason for someone not to..........other than personal opinions that say otherwise.
For myself, I'm perfectly comfortable with writing a review after 5 or 6 plays......or less, if I feel I can write a good review. "Rewards repeated listenes" is perfectly valid to use in a review, if the reviewer feels that is the case. Frankly, not all albums reward repeated listens. If they do for you, then great. But I suspect the vast majority of progarchives members will disagree with this notion. In any genre of music, at least 50% is crap after all (IMO).
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mono
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2005
Location: Paris, France
Status: Offline
Points: 652
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Posted: December 02 2010 at 10:37 |
Starhammer wrote:
Well, this IS a prog forum  |
:) doesn't mean we should encourage pretentiousness. My applogies thellama73 I'll make sure that doesn't happen again.
thehallway wrote:
^he he
What a pretentious response... |
...I simply pointed out false assumptions (no CD rentals) and gave my opinion on some real plausible causes for the issue (lack of CD rentals) rather than trying to legitimize my theory via subjects that don't have anything to do with the topic. If that's pretentious, then I take back my last comment to Starhammer.
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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: December 02 2010 at 16:36 |
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
A Physics axiom for many of you ...
"Quality is inversely proportional to Quantity"
It really tells the story about "listening" ... but if some people are too stoned and tripping and have to hear something 147 times ... so be it! |
Uhhh... what are you on about?
First of all, I've never heard this theory - what does "quality" mean in regards to physics?
More importantly, physics does not apply to art, and in some cases, not even real life.
This is music. Some music will be better understood or comprehended after repeated listens. Some will be instantly loved and consistent. Some, a person may begin to hate after repeated listens. It depends on the music, the person and their state of mind.
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FunkyM
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 12 2010
Location: Funkytown
Status: Offline
Points: 134
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Posted: December 02 2010 at 17:50 |
"Because, unlike movies and books, music always requires (and rewards) repeated listenings over a long period of time, usually more than two years."
I dunno. I think I'd get a heck of a lot more out of seeing Bridge on the River Kwai multiple times than I would from listening to Ke$ha's Animal. I don't think this theory holds up for me.
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topographicbroadways
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 5575
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Posted: December 02 2010 at 18:02 |
Jethro Tulls A Passion Play really did reward repeated listening i couldn't grasp a hold of the whole thing or concentrate the first few times but i came back to it a couple of weeks ago and gave it my full attention and it was a really great listen and i played it about 4 more times after that over the next few days that was definitely rewarded repeated listening
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: December 02 2010 at 18:12 |
I think early on when you're first exploring prog there will be albums that you need repeated listenings of, but as you get into more you do tend to get to the state where you'll know if you want to after the first spin. Do we get any kind of redeemable bonus points for repeated listenings?
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Blackbeard
Forum Groupie
Joined: February 28 2009
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 63
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 12:15 |
Some types of music are love at first sight, others needs repeated listings. To me, Gentle Giant belongs to the second group. It needs at least 3 years and many listenings until they belong to my favorites.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18651
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 15:37 |
Tapfret wrote:
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
A Physics axiom for many of you ...
"Quality is inversely proportional to Quantity"
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Hi,
Such sweeping generalizations, and particularly the laws of physics are somethings that art transcends.
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I hate to tell you this ... you are quite incorrect.
I personally tried this with actors and musicians, and there is a trick to it ... and it is the level of your attention ...check this out ...
If your attention span is 100%, I doubt you will need 50 listens. If your attention span is 10%, you will probably need 500 listens ... to find that little subtle thing that kicks in your listening pleasure ... but by that time I doubt that you will ever listen to it again, because your ability to concentrate is too scattered!
It's the same thing with actors for the stage and learning lines ... 100% concentration, you can learn 50 lines in 20 minutes ... 10% concentration it will take you 4 to 5 hours to get all those lines down ... you decide, which of these is more fruitful for you ... but I can tell you that the difference between a pro and an amateur, usually is their ability to ingest/digest it in one take (so to spaek) ...
Almost all of us reviewers that have been at it for years, do not need to listen to things that many times ... we have way more reference points for most stuff that we listen to, than the music itself has for us. And that is the difference.
It's the same thing for Foreign Art/Film Reviews, of which I have 500 or more and half of that in the Internet Movie Database ... there is no chance of seeing the films a second time, so if your attention is not there, why are you writing a review (first) and (second) what are you doing here?
I am not sure I would want to suggest that "regular" listeners do not have the same ability and are not used to seeing/hearing something different. The only issue I have with the majority of the music listed here, is the same reason I do not review top ten ... 10k people already done it ... what do you need my review for? ... besides, I only do the ones that they are not big enough to try, yet! The ones no one knows or has heard of before, because that is where the majority of gems are these days ... the rest is way too comercial and we need to start dropping most of those reviews, specially when some of the groups are mere mom and pop copies and not progressive at all.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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rdtprog
Special Collaborator
Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams
Joined: April 04 2009
Location: Mtl, QC
Status: Offline
Points: 5501
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 15:44 |
moshkito wrote:
Tapfret wrote:
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
A Physics axiom for many of you ...
"Quality is inversely proportional to Quantity"
|
Hi,
Such sweeping generalizations, and particularly the laws of physics are somethings that art transcends.
|
I hate to tell you this ... you are quite incorrect.
I personally tried this with actors and musicians, and there is a trick to it ... and it is the level of your attention ...check this out ...
If your attention span is 100%, I doubt you will need 50 listens. If your attention span is 10%, you will probably need 500 listens ... to find that little subtle thing that kicks in your listening pleasure ... but by that time I doubt that you will ever listen to it again, because your ability to concentrate is too scattered!
It's the same thing with actors for the stage and learning lines ... 100% concentration, you can learn 50 lines in 20 minutes ... 10% concentration it will take you 4 to 5 hours to get all those lines down ... you decide, which of these is more fruitful for you ... but I can tell you that the difference between a pro and an amateur, usually is their ability to ingest/digest it in one take (so to spaek) ...
Almost all of us reviewers that have been at it for years, do not need to listen to things that many times ... we have way more reference points for most stuff that we listen to, than the music itself has for us. And that is the difference.
It's the same thing for Foreign Art/Film Reviews, of which I have 500 or more and half of that in the Internet Movie Database ... there is no chance of seeing the films a second time, so if your attention is not there, why are you writing a review (first) and (second) what are you doing here?
I am not sure I would want to suggest that "regular" listeners do not have the same ability and are not used to seeing/hearing something different. The only issue I have with the majority of the music listed here, is the same reason I do not review top ten ... 10k people already done it ... what do you need my review for? ... besides, I only do the ones that they are not big enough to try, yet! The ones no one knows or has heard of before, because that is where the majority of gems are these days ... the rest is way too comercial and we need to start dropping most of those reviews, specially when some of the groups are mere mom and pop copies and not progressive at all. |
That's why i always think that you can't listen to prog music in your car, in a party or as music background.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18651
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 15:46 |
rdtprog wrote:
... But as far as make a review of a classical album, it would take me forever, because the
complexity of this kind of music is beyond me. |
And here is my point all the time ... now transpose that thought to rock music ... and the original "progressive" folks were pretty much stretching things into that classical complexity ... but we created "prog" because it has no complexity and is just another radio version of something that was done before ... it can't even broken down to anything else but yet another sonata format with the same bridges and choruses ... how original!
The important thing is that none of the originals will ever "sound like" someone else ... and that is not something that a "style" like "metal" is capable of expanding on very much. You have to have a very good sense of "self" to do so, or at least of "artistic" ideas, rather than some kind of "prog" idea ... which is to me just like cheap bar-hop band stuff ... it doesn't even take that much talent to play a 4/5 instead of a 3/4 or 4/4 ... or 7/8 ... so what? ... but see how many "Stravinsky's you can find in the land of progressive music ... hint ... most of those labelled in some "style" or other, are not even worth a listen!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 15:55 |
moshkito wrote:
Tapfret wrote:
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
A Physics axiom for many of you ...
"Quality is inversely proportional to Quantity"
|
Hi,
Such sweeping generalizations, and particularly the laws of physics are somethings that art transcends.
|
I hate to tell you this ... you are quite incorrect.
I personally tried this with actors and musicians, and there is a trick to it ... and it is the level of your attention ...check this out ...
If your attention span is 100%, I doubt you will need 50 listens. If your attention span is 10%, you will probably need 500 listens ... to find that little subtle thing that kicks in your listening pleasure ... but by that time I doubt that you will ever listen to it again, because your ability to concentrate is too scattered!
It's the same thing with actors for the stage and learning lines ... 100% concentration, you can learn 50 lines in 20 minutes ... 10% concentration it will take you 4 to 5 hours to get all those lines down ... you decide, which of these is more fruitful for you ... but I can tell you that the difference between a pro and an amateur, usually is their ability to ingest/digest it in one take (so to spaek) ...
Almost all of us reviewers that have been at it for years, do not need to listen to things that many times ... we have way more reference points for most stuff that we listen to, than the music itself has for us. And that is the difference.
It's the same thing for Foreign Art/Film Reviews, of which I have 500 or more and half of that in the Internet Movie Database ... there is no chance of seeing the films a second time, so if your attention is not there, why are you writing a review (first) and (second) what are you doing here?
I am not sure I would want to suggest that "regular" listeners do not have the same ability and are not used to seeing/hearing something different. The only issue I have with the majority of the music listed here, is the same reason I do not review top ten ... 10k people already done it ... what do you need my review for? ... besides, I only do the ones that they are not big enough to try, yet! The ones no one knows or has heard of before, because that is where the majority of gems are these days ... the rest is way too comercial and we need to start dropping most of those reviews, specially when some of the groups are mere mom and pop copies and not progressive at all. |
I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. All I noticed was that the senseless wall of text didn't address the "physics" axiom.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18651
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 15:56 |
rdtprog wrote:
That's why i always think that you can't listen to prog music in your car, in a party or as music background.
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You can.
And I do.
But listening to Heldon and Djam Karet, or some of the more unusual "progressive" ... not the comerical sounding ones called "prog" ... does take a little more discipline and ...carefull-ness ... (is that a word?) ... because for me these tend to take me away tripping ... and you really should not do that while driving!
But geee ... I'm listening to Mike Oldfield right now, and just had Kate Bush and before that a bunch of solo albums from the Gong family folks, before that Hawkwind, before that Man, before that Nektar, before that ... want me to keep going?
But the difference is ... I'm listening for the pleasure of enjoying some great music ... not because it is this or that or some silly idea like "progressive". I listen to "albums" ... like I would a symphony or a concerto ... not because it is some kind of glorified rock music (or jazz, or fusion or whatever) that we discuss here day in and day out.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18651
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 16:03 |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. All I noticed was that the senseless wall of text didn't address the "physics" axiom.
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If you had the intelligence to even attempt reading and stop thinking that the world is all about the sh*t you don't like ... you might find a gem here or there! But I'm not sure you have the attention span to even try ... since your answers usually have only a few characters and you think your name is Jesus!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 16:15 |
A lot of people here are using language when talking about prog to indicate an underlying assumption that it is of godlike remarkability. Get over it people. Prog is not god's gift to anyone. It's just music.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 16:17 |
moshkito wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. All I noticed was that the senseless wall of text didn't address the "physics" axiom.
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If you had the intelligence to even attempt reading and stop thinking that the world is all about the sh*t you don't like ... you might find a gem here or there! But I'm not sure you have the attention span to even try ... since your answers usually have only a few characters and you think your name is Jesus! |
If Walter makes you cum that doesn't make him Jesus.  By the way, I think it is a bit harsh the amount of sl*g.ing you've been getting around here for your postings. You've obviously been listening to prog for a long time and I find it unkind. Although I do read some and I confess they often makes my brain hurt. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - December 03 2010 at 16:22
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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hobocamp
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2010
Location: Fine Furniture
Status: Offline
Points: 525
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 17:09 |
topographicbroadways wrote:
Jethro Tulls A Passion Play really did reward repeated listening i couldn't grasp a hold of the whole thing or concentrate the first few times but i came back to it a couple of weeks ago and gave it my full attention and it was a really great listen and i played it about 4 more times after that over the next few days that was definitely rewarded repeated listening |
Dude, it took me so long to like this album! It sounded disjointed and unfamiliar at first, but finally a few melodies began to grow on me and now it is one of my favorite albums of all time. 
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three dot, a trinity, a way to map the universe,
three dot
four dot, is what will make a square, a bed to build on, it's all there,
four dot
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Xanatos
Forum Senior Member
Banned
Joined: February 01 2010
Location: Latin America
Status: Offline
Points: 305
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 19:54 |
/thread
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JasonL
Forum Newbie
Joined: November 15 2010
Location: Richmond
Status: Offline
Points: 24
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 20:37 |
hobocamp wrote:
topographicbroadways wrote:
Jethro Tulls A Passion Play really did reward repeated listening i couldn't grasp a hold of the whole thing or concentrate the first few times but i came back to it a couple of weeks ago and gave it my full attention and it was a really great listen and i played it about 4 more times after that over the next few days that was definitely rewarded repeated listening |
Dude, it took me so long to like this album! It sounded disjointed and unfamiliar at first, but finally a few melodies began to grow on me and now it is one of my favorite albums of all time.  |
This is a good example of how I think we're actually talking about three different phenomena. Let me break it down: (1) Requires repeated listening - an album (or song, or artist, or what have you) that isn't all that appealing at first listen but unveils its charms slowly, frequently because it's got kind of an austere surface - A Passion Play above, or Henry Cow (2) Rewards repeated listening - sounds fine when you first hear it, and each listen sounds good in a different way, because there's simply a lot going on in the album and it takes repeated listens to absorb it all - certainly the best albums of Yes, Genesis, classical music, jazz, and so forth (3) Permits repeated listening - album doesn't really have any secrets to unfold, but doesn't become grating or annoying after several listens - good pop music does this I think a lot of albums might get #2 for different reasons - sometimes the music, sometimes the lyrics, sometimes just the solos, etc.
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