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Negoba 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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 Posted: December 10 2010 at 10:39 |
 GaryB wrote:
Equality 7-whatever...so, you're ashamed of anyone who allows themselves to be drafted?
In the first place, you're a punk-ass little twenty-three year old who hasn't earned the right to be ashamed of anyone.
Whiny little liberals like you with BBs for balls disgust me. Your kind are no better than the spineless smudges that spit on troops returning from Nam.
All of you liberals belong in a commune singing folk songs around the campfire.
That is as long as someone else is willing to fight for your right to do so.
If you want to be ashamed of someone, be ashamed of yourself. |
Cocaine intensifies your personality...yes but what if you're an a$$hole.
Bill Cosby.
Put down the crack pipe dude. It makes you think like a 11 year old. Real issues are complex. That's why we're having a discussion here.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: December 10 2010 at 10:17 |
^ Ok let me clarify..............I was talking mostly in the most recent of times. I do not think I would have condoned the scramble for Africa where all the Europeans decided to send troops in and cherry pick Africa like it was a newfound candy store. Again even if it was blind loyalty, young troops, whether they knew right from wrong put their asses on the line. I admire that.
Do I condone the West admonishing Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan? Yes. Do I admire the balls and strength of those soldiers whether the cause is right....yes. Do I condone suicide bombers targeting innocent folk.....never.
Do I sypmathise with the Palestinian cause.....absolutely. Do I admire Palestinians fighting for some kind of freedom, yes, but for those soldiers who fight for their cause. Do I admire the Israeli soldier for protecting what was given to them post WW2 after and the ethnic attempts at deleting their heritage....absolutely.
Did I support the South African white regime to fight ' Communism" and it's border pre Mandela....no, I abhorred everything about it, did I love the soldiers who were mostly mandatory conscripts, getting limbs blown off in Angola and Mocambique, yes! Did I admire and respect freedom fighters like the ANC who did resort to bombing innocent people in their fight for freedom, no. Did I respect their reason to fight for freedom, absolutely.
I look at the grey and the blue and the American civil war, what a waste of lives, but I still bow to the trooper, be it blind ignorance, or mandatory conscript, or even plain patriotic bravado......who confront death regardless of what is right or wrong. They confront their destiny. Am I a pacifist, absolutely. To be honest I would rather all these people put down weapons and picked up bongs, but their ain't no economic stimulus selling bongs, so war will continue. Either way I admire the soldier. Call it compassion and when I see a whole bunch of USA troops moving through airport turnstiles, just returning froma sojourn in the Middle East, man I feel for those guys/girls and fully respect their intentions.
Now if you are talking about some of them generals who get decorated for fighting behind the lines......( Sorry stole an Asia line :-)....) I am not so sure.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 10 2010 at 09:39 |
Chris S wrote:
Coming into this poll way way late.........put it this way, i would die for every soldier who puts his life on the line for most causes, be it a Kiwi trooper or USA trooper in Afghanistan or Iraq. I admire and love the courage of soldiers ( regardless of whether we agree with the battle or not), so if that means would I die for my country by dying for a soldier....yes, most definitely. |
What if the soldier in question was on the other side? Assuming that you agreed with the battle then I asssume that you would side with the trooper of your country or its alies, but what if you disagree with the battle? Then you must hold each side in the dispute in equal standing or regard, and would be willing to die for a trooper from either side. A soldier is a soldier regardless of which cause he fights for and however just the cause - each believes they are on the side of right and on the side of the good, each are fighting for their country, their ideology or whatever. What if a soldier on the opposite side is a conscript who does not agree with the battle, but fights because he is forced to (because to refuse to is treason, desertion and certain death) ... would you die for him? What if your country was the agressor, invading a foreign soil? The soldiers there are not fighting for their country, they're fighting for someone elses country in the name of your country. What of a civil war? Both sides are fighting for their country and you could have the situation of kin against kin - which soldier do you die for?
Back in the 18th century would you have died for a British, French, Dutch or Spanish soldier? - would you have died for an Iroquois or a Cherokee?
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What?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32589
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Posted: December 10 2010 at 09:14 |
GaryB wrote:
Equality 7-whatever
Whiny little liberals like you
All of you liberals belong in a commune singing folk songs around the campfire.
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GaryB
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 451
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Posted: December 10 2010 at 09:09 |
Equality 7-whatever...so, you're ashamed of anyone who allows themselves to be drafted?
In the first place, you're a punk-ass little twenty-three year old who hasn't earned the right to be ashamed of anyone.
Whiny little liberals like you with BBs for balls disgust me. Your kind are no better than the spineless smudges that spit on troops returning from Nam.
All of you liberals belong in a commune singing folk songs around the campfire.
That is as long as someone else is willing to fight for your right to do so.
If you want to be ashamed of someone, be ashamed of yourself.
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: December 10 2010 at 01:34 |
Coming into this poll way way late.........put it this way, i would die for every soldier who puts his life on the line for most causes, be it a Kiwi trooper or USA trooper in Afghanistan or Iraq. I admire and love the courage of soldiers ( regardless of whether we agree with the battle or not), so if that means would I die for my country by dying for a soldier....yes, most definitely.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: December 10 2010 at 00:54 |
But it's pretty wierd to go to fight for your country on the condition that you not die. Rookie soldiers, especially not particularly willing ones who've been drafted, constantly imagine and anticipate their own death. I don't think people would be like "Well I'll fight for them because there's no chance I'll die." So it's kind of the same thing to me.
As for the transition to the global government, I think both of your alternatives will occur. I think there will be a WWIII in which China will be the major instigator. The alliance that forms around the Western nations will "win". Afterwards ideas of the importance of nationality will fraction even more rapidly than they have, plus the realisation will grow that competition between countries only causes strife and makes it impossible to face major challenges like environmental change and space colonisations. This will slowly cause more things like the EU to form but in ever more fundamental and widely scoped terms. Eventually different regions will become like states in a single global nation. I do not anticipate one country being the boss- we are entering a post super-nation era, and the USA will be the last one. China has plans to replace it as the new super-nation but after everyone's experiences with the USA there will be massive resistance to its plans and this will help lead into the war I mentioned before.
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GaryB
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 451
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Posted: December 08 2010 at 09:15 |
Maybe the question should be "Would you FIGHT for your country?"
There were, give or take, three million Americans that served in Viet Nam and the total number of deaths was a little over 57,000.
You do not go to war with the intent of dying for your country. You go to war to make the other guy die for his country.
BTW...I see some comments on one global government being the answer to a lot of, if not all of our current problems. But no one has said how we will get to one global government.
Will it be a peaceful transition or is it something that will have to be fought for?
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: December 07 2010 at 20:40 |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 07 2010 at 20:09 |
Textbook wrote:
Related question, would you refuse a draft for a political war? I would have refused the draft for Vietnam I'm pretty sure. (I say "political war" because let's say WWII where Hitler clearly had designs on world conquest, the question is not so interesting because you'd be a moron not to fight an evil maniac intent on destroying you and everyone you know. But a war fought for resources or ideology, would you refuse a draft there?)
Not sure this question needs its own poll, maybe later. |
I think it does, but yes I would dodge the draft. I would do so proudly too.
I think people that allow themselves to be drafted should be ashamed.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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krishl
Forum Groupie
Joined: May 05 2009
Location: Land of Enchant
Status: Offline
Points: 84
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Posted: December 07 2010 at 16:08 |
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Yes.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: December 07 2010 at 11:22 |
Country is a complex concept. At the end, my country is my people, family, friends, community and the people with whom I share my life with, so I think I would kill somebody who is threaten my family-friends-community, but not in the name of a Country.
200 years ago, of course I might get enrolled in the military to defend my nation... but in the lights of these days, we all know that wars are more complicated and the interests are different... so, I vote NO. Complex though...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: December 07 2010 at 07:04 |
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Brazil only fought worth-wile wars, so I would say yes.
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 20:20 |
Related question, would you refuse a draft for a political war? I would have refused the draft for Vietnam I'm pretty sure. (I say "political war" because let's say WWII where Hitler clearly had designs on world conquest, the question is not so interesting because you'd be a moron not to fight an evil maniac intent on destroying you and everyone you know. But a war fought for resources or ideology, would you refuse a draft there?)
Not sure this question needs its own poll, maybe later.
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 15:26 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
How about if I just dine for my country instead?
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I served. The food was not that bad. To be honest I just wanted to fly jets. My country allowed me to do that. I managed an exchange tour with the RAAF so I guess it was my job. I considered it a job. The F-111 was a high point in my life. If I was ordered to do the job I would have done it. No questions. I 'm getting hungry.
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cyclysm748
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 28 2008
Location: ND
Status: Offline
Points: 116
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 14:14 |
Textbook wrote:
By "for your country" I mean because the government asks so, reasons irrelevant. This may seem like an idiotic prospect to people today- I'm not going to die just because a politician requests it- but not that long ago you would have found plenty of people who felt it was their solemn duty to leap under a passing bus if their queen or president requested it. What I'm saying is that feeling has deteriorated (well not everywhere, it's very much alive in China for example) and now people are saying either "no" or "yes but only if there was some sort of threat" which actually means no because you're reacting to the threat, not the will of the country's leaders. |
In that case, no I would not. If I knew why I might be dying and there was a good reason, say protecting those closest to me, yes.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: November 28 2010 at 22:24 |
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How about if I just dine for my country instead?
Edited by Slartibartfast - December 11 2010 at 06:16
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NecronCommander
Special Collaborator
Prog Metal Team
Joined: September 17 2009
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 16122
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Posted: November 28 2010 at 20:49 |
I answered no, and I did it on the basis of would I voluntarily join the military in a combatant position, which I would not.
However, if for some reason the draft were enacted in the near future and I was required to take up arms for my country, I wouldn't flee to Canada or anything.
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Jörgemeister
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 10 2008
Location: Nauticus
Status: Offline
Points: 2296
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Posted: November 28 2010 at 20:13 |
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Not even if my country worth killing for.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: November 26 2010 at 17:13 |
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Absolutely not.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Would You Die For Your Country?
