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VanderGraafKommandöh 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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 Posted: March 01 2011 at 09:51 |
 Vibrationbaby wrote:
James wrote:
Although getting a paint scheme accurate is hard enough as it is! But yes, you want to at least show the correct markings.
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Even some privately restored German warbirds such as FW 190s & Messerschmitt Bf 109s don't carry the swastika. Instead they paint on the Bundesflagge und Handelsflagge on the tail fins where the swastika was normally located on wartime Luftwaffe aircraft. The aircraft on static display in German museums usually carry the swastika.
Back to the moron who gave the Nazi salute. Why he did it ? because he is a moron. I'd like to see him do that in front of a Royal Canadian Legion branch during Friday bingo night. He 'd get his head kicked right in.
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I was reading recently that the Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Kondor that is being restored for static display in Germany is being restored in a pre-war scheme but without Hakenkreuze (even though it is a pre-war scheme, many did have the Hakenkreuze on the fin in a while circle on a red band). I think sometimes it's people outside of Germany who get weird about it, rather than Germans themselves because they think "ooh, best not offend the Germans!". Obviously Germans do get upset about it though and it's perfectly understandable why as well.
Edited by James - March 01 2011 at 09:55
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 09:20 |
James wrote:
Although getting a paint scheme accurate is hard enough as it is! But yes, you want to at least show the correct markings.
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Even some privately restored German warbirds such as FW 190s & Messerschmitt Bf 109s don't carry the swastika. Instead they paint on the Bundesflagge und Handelsflagge on the tail fins where the swastika was normally located on wartime Luftwaffe aircraft. The aircraft on static display in German museums usually carry the swastika. Back to the moron who gave the Nazi salute. Why he did it ? because he is a moron. I'd like to see him do that in front of a Royal Canadian Legion branch during Friday bingo night. He 'd get his head kicked right in.
Edited by Vibrationbaby - March 01 2011 at 09:23
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 02 2008
Location: Going Bananas
Status: Offline
Points: 24857
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:49 |
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
The problem is that people here is using 2011 logic on a law which was made with a 1945 logic. That's wrong. But I will leave that dead dog buried. |
Real logic remains logic and is not affected by time. And if the Germans continue brewing beer according to the Reinheitsgebot (dating from 1516), I have no problems with it. Zum Wohl  !
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32581
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:34 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
So laws that were made using erroneous logic from the past should not be criticized?
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Laws made in 1790's logic say I get to own black people. 
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:32 |
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So laws that were made using erroneous logic from the past should not be criticized?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member
Retired
Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:30 |
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The problem is that people here is using 2011 logic on a law which was made with a 1945 logic. That's wrong. But I will leave that dead dog buried.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:29 |
Epignosis wrote:
The irony is that by outlawing such expression, the government is echoing Fascism anyway.
I wonder if they would outlaw yellow stars. 
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Exactly my point. If government can't effectively outlaw something as tangible as alcohol without complete tyranny, what chance does it have with ideas?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32581
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:27 |
The irony is that by outlawing such expression, the government is echoing Fascism anyway.
I wonder if they would outlaw yellow stars.
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Formentera Lady
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 20 2010
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1840
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:24 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Just have to love the freedom of speech and expression they have in Germany.
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I agree with the law.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:23 |
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I may as well waste my time reading a proof that the square root of two is rational.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member
Retired
Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:20 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I would have liked to have been in the room when the German government seriously suggested that making Nazi symbols illegal would prevent the rise of another Hitler-esque regime.
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No need for a time machine. You will find the reasoning somewhere on the net. Google will help you. Read and agree/disagree.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:18 |
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I would have liked to have been in the room when the German government seriously suggested that making Nazi symbols illegal would prevent the rise of another Hitler-esque regime.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member
Retired
Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:17 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
The cat knocked it off the dresser and destroyed it. |
No wonder. Cats had a particular hard time during WWII. The Nazis hated them because cats were more intelligent and more human than the Nazis. Most cats hisses and becomes aggressive when confronted with Nazi symbols. Back to Snow Dog's opening words. Why ban the Nazi salute ? Well, laws are made by human beings. Human beings have human feelings. Germans too have human feelings. Germans are in fact, human beings. We may disagree with this law, but taken into account how Germany looked like in the summer of 1945 and the shame all Germans are born with (two world wars & Holocaust), I can understand this law. It is the type of law mentally and emotionally scarred human beings makes. I don't agree with this law myself. But then again; I was not in Germany back in the summer of 1945. I though do have German friends in the age group 25-45 and they all think it is a good piece of legislation. So, there it goes.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20647
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:13 |
There is a difference with the Wermacht cross and the nazi cross
I've seeln allmodels - I used to build those 1/35th Tamya models with the army crosses - they're not illegal anywhere, I think.... But the slated nazi cross did nott appear on tanks and planes.... just on some official cars bearing the nazi black, red & white flags.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 07:03 |
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I used to build model airplanes from kits. I was particularly fond of WW II aircraft. I had put together a large scale Stuka dive bomber. And yes it came with decals for the original markings. The cat knocked it off the dresser and destroyed it. My favorite was a Flying Fortress model.
Edited by Slartibartfast - March 01 2011 at 07:05
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32581
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 06:36 |
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I am opposed to any laws that the government can abuse to bully undesirable people. This is one of them.
"The Nazi salute, usually accompanied by the phrase "Heil Hitler!", has
been illegal in Germany since the end of World War II, though it may
still be used for art, teaching and science.
Instances where the salute is ironic and clearly critical of the Nazi regime are also exempt."
As soon as the law can objectively define "art" and "teaching," and for that matter "ironic" and "clearly critical," such a law has no place on the books.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 06:25 |
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Denial of the holocaust is also illegal in Germany
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 05:29 |
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Although getting a paint scheme accurate is hard enough as it is! But yes, you want to at least show the correct markings.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 05:26 |
James wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
James wrote:
On plastic kits, you usually get the Hakenkreuze decals in two halfs. Some kits don't have them at all. Being a modeller, I want my model to be accurate. It doesn't show Nazism if I'm showing them. It's showing authenticity.
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Are the models you build from Germany, or is it because they are also sold in Germany? |
Sold in Germany. Some are Japanese (Hasegawa), some are American (Academy) and I even have some Czech ones (who seem to have no issue with putting them in). I'm not sure if Revell (a French company) include them or not.
Although Airfix don't include them at all, as far as I'm aware.
Addendum: they don't show the Hakenkreuze on the box art/photograph though
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This what depresses me. Models which are meant to be accurate, cannot be due to the ripples from one country's law.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: March 01 2011 at 05:24 |
Snow Dog wrote:
James wrote:
On plastic kits, you usually get the Hakenkreuze decals in two halfs. Some kits don't have them at all. Being a modeller, I want my model to be accurate. It doesn't show Nazism if I'm showing them. It's showing authenticity.
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Are the models you build from Germany, or is it because they are also sold in Germany? |
Sold in Germany. Some are Japanese (Hasegawa), some are American (Academy) and I even have some Czech ones (who seem to have no issue with putting them in). I'm not sure if Revell (a French company) include them or not. Although Airfix don't include them at all, as far as I'm aware. Addendum: they don't show the Hakenkreuze on the box art/photograph though
Edited by James - March 01 2011 at 05:25
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