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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2011 at 11:19
An interesting theory from the brilliant Colin J. Humphreys:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110418/wl_uk_afp/britainreligionchristianseaster
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Points: 32596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2011 at 07:13
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Eärendil Eärendil wrote:

Originally posted by Any Colour You Like Any Colour You Like wrote:

Originally posted by Eärendil Eärendil wrote:

Originally posted by Barking Weasel Barking Weasel wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I don't believe in god, but I don't believe in satan either. Man is evil enough and needs no external source to commit atrocities.


Clap


Then how is it evil if it's not compared to a standard?


Because no such standard exists.


I often think of evil simply as a lack of good, but even if you consider it a separate power, it still requires some sort of standard.  Inherently it's a comparison to a standard.  You can't say that a thing is worse without comparing it to something else.
And you need a god for that? Considering that humans have created a countless number of gods, they certainly are capable of creating standards without one. If one considers the ten commandments, for instance, one is struck at just how many concern property. The shrewd Hebrew priests who invented the commandments were certainly intent on ensuring:
 
1) their jobs, first of all, hence all the religious gobbledy-gook meant to maintain their positions and their status as purveyors of the "true religion" (thou shalt have no other gods before me -- and don't make idols, they are costly and the money is better spent put in our coffers).
 
2) you didn't kill them
 
3) you didn't screw their wives
 
4) you didn't even dare check out their wives' asses over at the well
 
5) you didn't steal their stuff
 
6) you didn't even dare thinking about stealing their stuff
 
7) they were the only ones who could think up various religious lies -- you were not allowed to bear false witness, however.


Because Hebrew priests wandering in the wilderness were so rich and had land they owned!

Or that they enforced the law themselves!

Or that they formed a majority among their own people!

Gah- such cynical ignorance...Dead
 
Hmmm...ignorance? I think it's a matter of perspective, thank you. Personally, I consider kindly old bearded gents talking out of burning bushes to be an ignorant fairy tale meant to edify and frighten superstitious shepherds, but to each his own. And as far as Hebrew priests, if you follow history (or even read the bible), you'll find them zealously protecting their prerogatives throughout the history of Israel, even to the point of pledging allegiance to foreign powers and being elected via the dictates of Rome and their puppets, like Herod. It's a good thing maintaining one's dignity wasn't the 11th commandment.
 
Of course, this is not a knock against the Hebrews, the Egyptian priests were much the same; in fact they took very unkindly to Akhenaten (the pharaoh previously known as Amenhotep IV) trying to practice his brand of monotheism. Eventually, all his temples were destroyed and his named erased from public buildings. The moral: don't screw with religion.


The Bible is actually quite clear about how treacherous the Hebrew people were throughout history, including the priesthood, the monarchy, and the general people.  It makes no attempt to hide any indiscretions, and it also makes no attempt to hide God's wrath and judgment against their lack of fealty.

In essence, the Hebrew nation were consistently reneging on the Suzerain-Vassal Treaty they had formed with the God of Abraham who delivered them from Egypt- not just politically, but theologically as well (though in those times, there was far more of an overlap between these two areas).

I find it odd that you condemn the Hebrew priesthood (and by extension, other leaders) for setting up commandments to protect their self-interest and then condemn them for breaking them (particularly the first two) when doing so at every turn only brought them ruin and drove them to eventual repentance.
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Points: 32596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2011 at 07:23
Originally posted by progkidjoel progkidjoel wrote:

Originally posted by JesusisLord JesusisLord wrote:

Think not that i have come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace but a sword......
                                                                                            Jesus Christ...Matthew 10:34

 The sheer mention of God or his Son, Jesus Christ, immediately brings division, especially here to our beloved ProgArchives.....Thats the way it has always been and always be....God divided the light from the darkness all the way back at the beginning and in the fullness of times he will divide the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares, the saved from the lost....You are bothered by the mention of his name because you are not one of His. It doesn't bother you when they sing of pixies, fairies and all assortment of other gods, but mention His name and your immediately on the defense. Why? Be honest, It's not the "preachy Christians" that bother you but rather,  it's the fact that you just don't like or want the GOD of the Bible.....

               Jesus said unto them, If GOD were your Father ye would love me for I proceeded forth and came from GOD... John 8:42
You're very judgemental and condemning for a Christian. Please refrain from telling people what they do and don't like about your religion, you're not helping the case of preachy Christians by telling me that I don't like God...

I would like to quote Second Kings: 2:23-24
 
And he, Elisha, went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up that way, there came forth little children of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; Go up, thou bald head.

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD.  And there came forth two she bears out of the wood and tare forty and two children of them.



Not sure what you're saying Joel- could you clarify?
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2011 at 09:03
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

An interesting theory from the brilliant Colin J. Humphreys:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110418/wl_uk_afp/britainreligionchristianseaster


A fixed day for Easter would certainly be nice.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 13445 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2011 at 21:41
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I find it odd that you condemn the Hebrew priesthood (and by extension, other leaders) for setting up commandments to protect their self-interest and then condemn them for breaking them (particularly the first two) when doing so at every turn only brought them ruin and drove them to eventual repentance.
There is nothing odd with pointing out the irony of priests, or any leaders, making up laws that they routinely break (the Libertarian thread is strewn with the flotsam and jetsam of modern lawbreaking). What counts is the populus follows the laws set by the ruling caste, and the priests were certainly were part of the ruling elite.
 
The point I was trying to make (and thank you for moving the discussion -- I felt bad for the digression on the other thread), was that the ten commandments, viewed from a humanistic standpoint, make complete sense for the  priests who wrote them, as multiple authorship is distinclty possible, if not probable.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Points: 383 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2011 at 19:24
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I find it odd that you condemn the Hebrew priesthood (and by extension, other leaders) for setting up commandments to protect their self-interest and then condemn them for breaking them (particularly the first two) when doing so at every turn only brought them ruin and drove them to eventual repentance.
There is nothing odd with pointing out the irony of priests, or any leaders, making up laws that they routinely break (the Libertarian thread is strewn with the flotsam and jetsam of modern lawbreaking). What counts is the populus follows the laws set by the ruling caste, and the priests were certainly were part of the ruling elite.
 
The point I was trying to make (and thank you for moving the discussion -- I felt bad for the digression on the other thread), was that the ten commandments, viewed from a humanistic standpoint, make complete sense for the  priests who wrote them, as multiple authorship is distinclty possible, if not probable.
 
Whether it was priests or God who wrote the 10 commandments, either way, a life lived by the last 6 commandments (the ones ones concerning relationships with others) would be much better than one lived breaking those morals, at least in my opinion.
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Points: 1584 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2011 at 22:00
I've been thinking since last Sunday about worship music during church services.  In the past I've been on retreats where everyone breaks down and has an emotional experience with God during the music, but I more often am waiting for it to be over.  Don't get me wrong, I love worshiping through music (including "secular" music), but I have a difficult time connecting with praise and worship music.  Perhaps part of the problem is the music style, since it tends to be very safe and poppy, but I don't think that's the main issue.  I think the main problem is how so many of the songs somehow mange to focus on the self.  How "I will live my life for you" and "I want you", it's so shallow and repetitive.  On the other hand, when we do hymns, I feel more moved because of the more eloquent and (usually) less self-centered lyrics. But the vast majority of modern Christian "praise" songs seem to center on a cycle of self-pity, rather than true selfless praise.  Sure, I'm generalizing, and there are some great modern praise songs, but overall, they just leave me feeling empty and enraged.
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Points: 32596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2011 at 22:23
Originally posted by Eärendil Eärendil wrote:

I've been thinking since last Sunday about worship music during church services.  In the past I've been on retreats where everyone breaks down and has an emotional experience with God during the music, but I more often am waiting for it to be over.  Don't get me wrong, I love worshiping through music (including "secular" music), but I have a difficult time connecting with praise and worship music.  Perhaps part of the problem is the music style, since it tends to be very safe and poppy, but I don't think that's the main issue.  I think the main problem is how so many of the songs somehow mange to focus on the self.  How "I will live my life for you" and "I want you", it's so shallow and repetitive.  On the other hand, when we do hymns, I feel more moved because of the more eloquent and (usually) less self-centered lyrics. But the vast majority of modern Christian "praise" songs seem to center on a cycle of self-pity, rather than true selfless praise.  Sure, I'm generalizing, and there are some great modern praise songs, but overall, they just leave me feeling empty and enraged.


You have just summed up my feeling about contemporary praise music.  Much of it is indeed focused on self or is insipid, and that bothers me.  I very much agree with you.  Older hymns tend to focus on the faithfulness and holiness of God rather than the desires of man.
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2011 at 05:30
Try a bit of diversity - look out for an Orthodox church where the choir does Byzantine chant, or a Catholic church where they do Gregorian chant. That might be an interesting experience for you personally, but if this was about improving your experience with your own church practice, then I guess my advice isn't helpful. 
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I am a Middle-Eastern Christian.

We have hard times here. Blowing up churches and forcing Christians to emigrate from their homeland isn't too uncommon around these parts.
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2011 at 05:51
^ Egypt, Syria? I've heard awful things indeed. 
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Lebanon.

Syria thus far is stable, in regards of Christian presence. The ruler (although a dictator) is part of the Alawite minority in the region, so he respects the rights of other minorities to exist in Syria, including the Jewish. If he's toppled, however, the majority of Sunnis would be ruthless to minorities such as the Christians.

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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2011 at 11:57
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Eärendil Eärendil wrote:

I've been thinking since last Sunday about worship music during church services.  In the past I've been on retreats where everyone breaks down and has an emotional experience with God during the music, but I more often am waiting for it to be over.  Don't get me wrong, I love worshiping through music (including "secular" music), but I have a difficult time connecting with praise and worship music.  Perhaps part of the problem is the music style, since it tends to be very safe and poppy, but I don't think that's the main issue.  I think the main problem is how so many of the songs somehow mange to focus on the self.  How "I will live my life for you" and "I want you", it's so shallow and repetitive.  On the other hand, when we do hymns, I feel more moved because of the more eloquent and (usually) less self-centered lyrics. But the vast majority of modern Christian "praise" songs seem to center on a cycle of self-pity, rather than true selfless praise.  Sure, I'm generalizing, and there are some great modern praise songs, but overall, they just leave me feeling empty and enraged.


You have just summed up my feeling about contemporary praise music.  Much of it is indeed focused on self or is insipid, and that bothers me.  I very much agree with you.  Older hymns tend to focus on the faithfulness and holiness of God rather than the desires of man.
Sorry to intrude but even for a secular as me, I definitely used to feel something really, how can I say, fulfilling, about old church music (I have a catholic background after all). When I listen to modern pop-rock-country-oriented praise songs, I only think "how can people of faith really feel connected somehow to their god with crappy music like this?" There is nothing spiritual about it. It just feels as attempts at making money with pop songs using religious lyrics.  And, as you say, all of these songs that I've heard feature this somewhat covered-narcissistic songs about how "I see the light" and all of that which makes it feel much less like a religion. 

Edited by The T - June 17 2011 at 12:00
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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2011 at 11:44
Originally posted by PinkRobot PinkRobot wrote:

Lebanon.

Syria thus far is stable, in regards of Christian presence. The ruler (although a dictator) is part of the Alawite minority in the region, so he respects the rights of other minorities to exist in Syria, including the Jewish. If he's toppled, however, the majority of Sunnis would be ruthless to minorities such as the Christians.

As sadly happened in Iraq when Saddam Hussein was toppled.  Some choices are darned hard.
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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2011 at 10:51
Christians?  Where are you?  Why are we being trumped in post count by libertarians?

Edited by ghost_of_morphy - June 22 2011 at 10:52
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2011 at 10:53
^Because we are free. Tongue
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Points: 67479 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2011 at 11:24
I don't think God loves libertarians very much though.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2011 at 11:31
^God loves everybody the same, but libertarians are free to enjoy the love. He might not love you though Vompatti Stern Smile
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Points: 67479 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2011 at 11:39
^ If He doesn't love me it's because I'm not worthy of His love. Stern Smile
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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2011 at 11:17
I'm sure God must love at least some libertarians.  They are free from the law, just like the Apostle Paul.
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